JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Iron Greek on November 28, 2007, 03:21:02 PM
-
Part 1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6n62JLGvfP8
Part 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TNwG-ZHZDuY&feature=related
-
I have alot of friends who are caught up in that cult.
They have misinterpreted ONE PASSAGE of the Talmud and they feel this outweighs the rest of the Talmud and the Entire Tanakh.
They are lunatics and should be excommunicated from Normative Judaism.
-
There can be no Secular Israeli. Without Judaism and it's Jewish character, Israel has no purpose
-
I have alot of friends who are caught up in that cult.
They have misinterpreted ONE PASSAGE of the Talmud and they feel this outweighs the rest of the Talmud and the Entire Tanakh.
They are lunatics and should be excommunicated from Normative Judaism.
??? im guessing you haven't seen the video.(Ive seen the first). They are normal Haredim. In this case they did a lot of good- protesting the gay parade, and shutting down a cremetorium in Israel, good for them, we need more people like that (enforcing Judaism).
-
I have alot of friends who are caught up in that cult.
They have misinterpreted ONE PASSAGE of the Talmud and they feel this outweighs the rest of the Talmud and the Entire Tanakh.
They are lunatics and should be excommunicated from Normative Judaism.
??? im guessing you haven't seen the video.(Ive seen the first). They are normal Haredim. In this case they did a lot of good- protesting the gay parade, and shutting down a cremetorium in Israel, good for them, we need more people like that (enforcing Judaism).
I agree.
-
I have alot of friends who are caught up in that cult.
They have misinterpreted ONE PASSAGE of the Talmud and they feel this outweighs the rest of the Talmud and the Entire Tanakh.
They are lunatics and should be excommunicated from Normative Judaism.
??? im guessing you haven't seen the video.(Ive seen the first). They are normal Haredim. In this case they did a lot of good- protesting the gay parade, and shutting down a cremetorium in Israel, good for them, we need more people like that (enforcing Judaism).
Then why did he refer to them as a cult?
-
I have alot of friends who are caught up in that cult.
They have misinterpreted ONE PASSAGE of the Talmud and they feel this outweighs the rest of the Talmud and the Entire Tanakh.
They are lunatics and should be excommunicated from Normative Judaism.
??? im guessing you haven't seen the video.(Ive seen the first). They are normal Haredim. In this case they did a lot of good- protesting the gay parade, and shutting down a cremetorium in Israel, good for them, we need more people like that (enforcing Judaism).
Then why did he refer to them as a cult?
Im not him, I dont know. Maybe he thought it was NK.
-
??? im guessing you haven't seen the video.(Ive seen the first). They are normal Haredim. In this case they did a lot of good- protesting the gay parade, and shutting down a cremetorium in Israel, good for them, we need more people like that (enforcing Judaism).
I don't think this is a lot of good. The faggots are not threatening Israel with annihilation, and as offensive as it is, neither is the cremation site. A Kahanist government would fight to save Israel right now and would deal with the fags later. At a time like this, when Israel's existence is threatened by self-hating kapos, this is very poor prioritization.
If the haredim would get together and use their tremendous social and Knesset clout to stop surrenders and pullouts that promise to annihilate the state of Israel, they would probably be able to stop this treason in its tracks. But they don't; in fact, many are anti-Zionist altogether.
This is why I have a problem with many (not all) haredim.
-
There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.
I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.
The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.
The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.
If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.
You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.
The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.
They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!! Why aren't we doing it?"
And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?
That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?
It's the truth, but it is hard to take.
Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.
A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.
B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.
C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.
D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.
E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sephardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.
F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.
I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.
Yes, I do.
The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.
The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!
If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.
Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.
-
If Israel is secular - as it is currently.. Then we are in trouble..
I hope G-d does not throw us out of the land..
Israelis must be more religious. Certainly not anti religious.
But we still need a strong army..Jews faught wars with the help of G-d. We did not lie down in the sun, surrounded by our enemies. I hear that the ultra orthodox do not support the army very much.
-
What I hope to happen is for the Haredim to develope zealousness against fighting our externel enemies (mainly the arabs, u.n. etc.), and the National Religious/ Sefardim to develope and help in the campaign of fighting the internel enemies (Immodesty, evil gay culture, the selling of pork, etc.) We cant have one without the other.
No Arabs, No Pork - ;)
-
Kahanism agrees with this comprehensive plan completely, but right now the greatest emergency is Israel's survival!
-
There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.
I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.
The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.
The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.
If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.
You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.
The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.
They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!! Why aren't we doing it?"
And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?
That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?
It's the truth, but it is hard to take.
Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.
A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.
B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.
C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.
D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.
E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sephardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.
F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.
I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.
Yes, I do.
The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.
The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!
If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.
Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.
Can you provide a source for A) about Tahanun. Also is your Rabbi, David Bar Chaim?
-
There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.
I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.
The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.
The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.
If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.
You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.
The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.
They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!! Why aren't we doing it?"
And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?
That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?
It's the truth, but it is hard to take.
Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.
A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.
B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.
C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.
D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.
E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sephardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.
F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.
I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.
Yes, I do.
The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.
The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!
If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.
Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.
Can you provide a source for A) about Tahanun. Also is your Rabbi, David Bar Chaim?
Yes, here is the source Rambam Hilkhoth Tefilah, Pereq Hamesh Halakha Shesh Esre or Maimonides Laws of prayer chapter five Law Sixteen.
טז כִּשְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה נְפִילַת פָּנִים אַחַר תְּפִלָּה, יֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה קִדָּה, וְיֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה; וְאָסוּר לַעֲשׂוֹת הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה עַל הָאֲבָנִים אֵלָא בַּמִּקְדָּשׁ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ בְּהִלְכּוֹת עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה. וְאֵין אָדָם חָשׁוּב רַשָּׁאי לִפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו, אֵלָא אִם כֵּן הוּא יוֹדֵעַ בְּעַצְמוֹ שְׁהוּא צַדִּיק כִּיהוֹשׁוּעַ; אֲבָל מַטֶּה הוּא פָּנָיו מְעַט, וְאֵינוּ כּוֹבֵשׁ אוֹתָם בַּקַּרְקָע. וּמֻתָּר לָאָדָם לְהִתְפַּלַּל בְּמָקוֹם זֶה, וְלִנְפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו בְּמָקוֹם אַחֵר.
Can you read and understand it, Dominator or do you need me to translate?
Also the two Halakhoth immediately preceding this one explain what is Kri'Ah, Qeedha and HishtaHawaya.
יד [יג] הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה כֵּיצַד: אַחַר שֶׁמַּגְבִּיהַּ רֹאשׁוֹ מִכְּרִיעָה חֲמִישִׁית, יוֹשֵׁב לָאָרֶץ, וְנוֹפֵל עַל פָּנָיו אָרְצָה, וּמִתְחַנֵּן בְּכָל הַתַּחֲנוּנִים שֶׁיִּרְצֶה.
טו כְּרִיעָה הָאֲמוּרָה בְּכָל מָקוֹם, עַל בִּרְכַּיִם; קִדָּה, עַל אַפַּיִם; הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה--זוֹ פִּשּׁוּט יָדַיִם וְרַגְלַיִם, עַד שֶׁנִּמְצָא מוּטָל עַל פָּנָיו עַל הָאָרֶץ.
And yes, I can proudly say that Rabbi Daweedh Bar Hayim is the most extraordinarily truthful and brilliant and Strong Rabbi I have ever met. He is helping to pulling me out of Boro Park mentally and physically and sending me to Judea, mentally and physically.
His Torah and only his Torah is capable of wiping the Galuth off of us.
And NO Rabbi can disprove what he's saying about Sepharadim and Ashkenazim. There isn't a Rabbi alive who can come up with a justification of what we do today which contradicts the Mishna, Talmudh, Tur, and ShulHan Arukh.
If you listen to his shiurim and look up everything he says, you will see that he speaks the truth and there is no hareidi or dati leumi Rav that can disprove him. Not Ovadia Yosef and not Rav Elyashiv.
NO ONE.
machonshilo.org is the place to be for truth-seekers.
-
Geez......Excellent Video !!!
No disrespect to anyone in the forum but this video reminded me why my sister who is Israeli dislikes the ultra orthodox:
1) They are easily except of the military service
2) The live off benefits & state handouts
No disrespect to anyone in the forum (I know all you super religious right wingers will hate me for this)
I admire the ultra orthodox who work, contribute and serve in the military (just like the lady in the documentary) but the ones who beat that woman up in the bus and don't work should be slapped around with a huge pork chop. YOU DON'T HIT A WOMAN. (unless she is holding a gun to your head!)
I agree that certain parts in Jerusalem should be kept discrete - we still have to preserve our identity but I would not like to see Israel turn into an Ultra Orthodox State. The only positive aspect of the video was the burning of the crematorium.
-
Kahanism agrees with this comprehensive plan completely, but right now the greatest emergency is Israel's survival!
But this is Israel's survival.
-
Your a good greek merk
-
Judea, I disagree about the Sefardim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefardim who attend.
Before you jump on me and say that this causes disunity, etc, you should know that each tribe of Israel lived in its own border, and the land was organized and devided into families where it ended up that you live closer to people who are more related to you, and have the same culture as you.
Im Bukharian Sefardi and proud of it, and wouldnt like that identity to disappear.
-
Judea, I disagree about the Sefardim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefardim who attend.
Before you jump on me and say that this causes disunity, etc, you should know that each tribe of Israel lived in its own border, and the land was organized and devided into families where it ended up that you live closer to people who are more related to you, and have the same culture as you.
Im Bukharian Sefardi and proud of it, and wouldnt like that identity to disappear.
Maybe some differences of opinion can be settled by the future (IY"H) Sanhedrin. But until then, each group should keep its own customs.
-
Judea, I disagree about the Sefardim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefardim who attend.
Those Charedi Asheknazi Yeshivas don't only try to make the Sephardim take on new Charedi beliefs and reject their own traditions but they do exactly the same thing to regular Askenazim and make them lose their traditional identity.
-
There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.
I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.
The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.
The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.
If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.
You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.
The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.
They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!! Why aren't we doing it?"
And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?
That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?
It's the truth, but it is hard to take.
Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.
A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.
B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.
C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.
D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.
E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sephardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.
F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.
I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.
Yes, I do.
The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.
The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!
If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.
Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.
Can you provide a source for A) about Tahanun. Also is your Rabbi, David Bar Chaim?
Yes, here is the source Rambam Hilkhoth Tefilah, Pereq Hamesh Halakha Shesh Esre or Maimonides Laws of prayer chapter five Law Sixteen.
טז כִּשְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה נְפִילַת פָּנִים אַחַר תְּפִלָּה, יֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה קִדָּה, וְיֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה; וְאָסוּר לַעֲשׂוֹת הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה עַל הָאֲבָנִים אֵלָא בַּמִּקְדָּשׁ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ בְּהִלְכּוֹת עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה. וְאֵין אָדָם חָשׁוּב רַשָּׁאי לִפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו, אֵלָא אִם כֵּן הוּא יוֹדֵעַ בְּעַצְמוֹ שְׁהוּא צַדִּיק כִּיהוֹשׁוּעַ; אֲבָל מַטֶּה הוּא פָּנָיו מְעַט, וְאֵינוּ כּוֹבֵשׁ אוֹתָם בַּקַּרְקָע. וּמֻתָּר לָאָדָם לְהִתְפַּלַּל בְּמָקוֹם זֶה, וְלִנְפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו בְּמָקוֹם אַחֵר.
Can you read and understand it, Dominator or do you need me to translate?
Also the two Halakhoth immediately preceding this one explain what is Kri'Ah, Qeedha and HishtaHawaya.
יד [יג] הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה כֵּיצַד: אַחַר שֶׁמַּגְבִּיהַּ רֹאשׁוֹ מִכְּרִיעָה חֲמִישִׁית, יוֹשֵׁב לָאָרֶץ, וְנוֹפֵל עַל פָּנָיו אָרְצָה, וּמִתְחַנֵּן בְּכָל הַתַּחֲנוּנִים שֶׁיִּרְצֶה.
טו כְּרִיעָה הָאֲמוּרָה בְּכָל מָקוֹם, עַל בִּרְכַּיִם; קִדָּה, עַל אַפַּיִם; הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה--זוֹ פִּשּׁוּט יָדַיִם וְרַגְלַיִם, עַד שֶׁנִּמְצָא מוּטָל עַל פָּנָיו עַל הָאָרֶץ.
And yes, I can proudly say that Rabbi Daweedh Bar Hayim is the most extraordinarily truthful and brilliant and Strong Rabbi I have ever met. He is helping to pulling me out of Boro Park mentally and physically and sending me to Judea, mentally and physically.
His Torah and only his Torah is capable of wiping the Galuth off of us.
And NO Rabbi can disprove what he's saying about Sepharadim and Ashkenazim. There isn't a Rabbi alive who can come up with a justification of what we do today which contradicts the Mishna, Talmudh, Tur, and ShulHan Arukh.
If you listen to his shiurim and look up everything he says, you will see that he speaks the truth and there is no hareidi or dati leumi Rav that can disprove him. Not Ovadia Yosef and not Rav Elyashiv.
NO ONE.
machonshilo.org is the place to be for truth-seekers.
Thanks. I can understand. Ive listened to alot of Rabbi David Bar Chaim's shiurim, he has a lot of interesting points. I had a question for him. He says to wear Techelet, but which 1 does he say to wear, is it the Murex?
-
What I don't understand is: Israel is a Jewish state? I must reiterate: A JEWISH STATE. Hence it SHOULD be a Jewish Theocracy! If seculars don't like it, then there's other countries around the world that they can take refuge in. Help me JTF'ers, If you know Israel is a Jewish State, and you're Jewish, wouldn't you appreciate a theocracy of your religious peers? Help me out, because I'm lost!
-
What I don't understand is: Israel is a Jewish state? I must reiterate: A JEWISH STATE. Hence it SHOULD be a Jewish Theocracy! If seculars don't like it, then there's other countries around the world that they can take refuge in. Help me JTF'ers, If you know Israel is a Jewish State, and you're Jewish, wouldn't you appreciate a theocracy of your religious peers? Help me out, because I'm lost!
They wouldnt becuase then that would mean that they would have to keep mitzvot (ohh my G-d that would be the end of the world), and the secular entity would loose its power.
-
There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.
I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.
The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.
The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.
If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.
You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.
The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.
They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!! Why aren't we doing it?"
And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?
That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?
It's the truth, but it is hard to take.
Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.
A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.
B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.
C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.
D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.
E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sephardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.
F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.
I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.
Yes, I do.
The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.
The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!
If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.
Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.
Can you provide a source for A) about Tahanun. Also is your Rabbi, David Bar Chaim?
Yes, here is the source Rambam Hilkhoth Tefilah, Pereq Hamesh Halakha Shesh Esre or Maimonides Laws of prayer chapter five Law Sixteen.
טז כִּשְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה נְפִילַת פָּנִים אַחַר תְּפִלָּה, יֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה קִדָּה, וְיֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה; וְאָסוּר לַעֲשׂוֹת הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה עַל הָאֲבָנִים אֵלָא בַּמִּקְדָּשׁ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ בְּהִלְכּוֹת עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה. וְאֵין אָדָם חָשׁוּב רַשָּׁאי לִפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו, אֵלָא אִם כֵּן הוּא יוֹדֵעַ בְּעַצְמוֹ שְׁהוּא צַדִּיק כִּיהוֹשׁוּעַ; אֲבָל מַטֶּה הוּא פָּנָיו מְעַט, וְאֵינוּ כּוֹבֵשׁ אוֹתָם בַּקַּרְקָע. וּמֻתָּר לָאָדָם לְהִתְפַּלַּל בְּמָקוֹם זֶה, וְלִנְפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו בְּמָקוֹם אַחֵר.
Can you read and understand it, Dominator or do you need me to translate?
Also the two Halakhoth immediately preceding this one explain what is Kri'Ah, Qeedha and HishtaHawaya.
יד [יג] הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה כֵּיצַד: אַחַר שֶׁמַּגְבִּיהַּ רֹאשׁוֹ מִכְּרִיעָה חֲמִישִׁית, יוֹשֵׁב לָאָרֶץ, וְנוֹפֵל עַל פָּנָיו אָרְצָה, וּמִתְחַנֵּן בְּכָל הַתַּחֲנוּנִים שֶׁיִּרְצֶה.
טו כְּרִיעָה הָאֲמוּרָה בְּכָל מָקוֹם, עַל בִּרְכַּיִם; קִדָּה, עַל אַפַּיִם; הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה--זוֹ פִּשּׁוּט יָדַיִם וְרַגְלַיִם, עַד שֶׁנִּמְצָא מוּטָל עַל פָּנָיו עַל הָאָרֶץ.
And yes, I can proudly say that Rabbi Daweedh Bar Hayim is the most extraordinarily truthful and brilliant and Strong Rabbi I have ever met. He is helping to pulling me out of Boro Park mentally and physically and sending me to Judea, mentally and physically.
His Torah and only his Torah is capable of wiping the Galuth off of us.
And NO Rabbi can disprove what he's saying about Sepharadim and Ashkenazim. There isn't a Rabbi alive who can come up with a justification of what we do today which contradicts the Mishna, Talmudh, Tur, and ShulHan Arukh.
If you listen to his shiurim and look up everything he says, you will see that he speaks the truth and there is no hareidi or dati leumi Rav that can disprove him. Not Ovadia Yosef and not Rav Elyashiv.
NO ONE.
machonshilo.org is the place to be for truth-seekers.
I got a couple answers about the Nefilat Apayim. One was that the Ari said that it was "dangerous" according to the Kabbalah, that we go to a different world, and may not come back, this all according to Kabbalah. The second was that it isnt proper to bow down on marble.There was one more answer but i forgot it.
-
There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.
I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.
The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.
The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.
If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.
You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.
The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.
They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!! Why aren't we doing it?"
And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?
That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?
It's the truth, but it is hard to take.
Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.
A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.
B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.
C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.
D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.
E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sefardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.
F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.
I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.
Yes, I do.
The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.
The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!
If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.
Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.
Can you provide a source for A) about Tahanun. Also is your Rabbi, David Bar Chaim?
Yes, here is the source Rambam Hilkhoth Tefilah, Pereq Hamesh Halakha Shesh Esre or Maimonides Laws of prayer chapter five Law Sixteen.
טז כִּשְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה נְפִילַת פָּנִים אַחַר תְּפִלָּה, יֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה קִדָּה, וְיֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה; וְאָסוּר לַעֲשׂוֹת הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה עַל הָאֲבָנִים אֵלָא בַּמִּקְדָּשׁ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ בְּהִלְכּוֹת עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה. וְאֵין אָדָם חָשׁוּב רַשָּׁאי לִפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו, אֵלָא אִם כֵּן הוּא יוֹדֵעַ בְּעַצְמוֹ שְׁהוּא צַדִּיק כִּיהוֹשׁוּעַ; אֲבָל מַטֶּה הוּא פָּנָיו מְעַט, וְאֵינוּ כּוֹבֵשׁ אוֹתָם בַּקַּרְקָע. וּמֻתָּר לָאָדָם לְהִתְפַּלַּל בְּמָקוֹם זֶה, וְלִנְפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו בְּמָקוֹם אַחֵר.
Can you read and understand it, Dominator or do you need me to translate?
Also the two Halakhoth immediately preceding this one explain what is Kri'Ah, Qeedha and HishtaHawaya.
יד [יג] הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה כֵּיצַד: אַחַר שֶׁמַּגְבִּיהַּ רֹאשׁוֹ מִכְּרִיעָה חֲמִישִׁית, יוֹשֵׁב לָאָרֶץ, וְנוֹפֵל עַל פָּנָיו אָרְצָה, וּמִתְחַנֵּן בְּכָל הַתַּחֲנוּנִים שֶׁיִּרְצֶה.
טו כְּרִיעָה הָאֲמוּרָה בְּכָל מָקוֹם, עַל בִּרְכַּיִם; קִדָּה, עַל אַפַּיִם; הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה--זוֹ פִּשּׁוּט יָדַיִם וְרַגְלַיִם, עַד שֶׁנִּמְצָא מוּטָל עַל פָּנָיו עַל הָאָרֶץ.
And yes, I can proudly say that Rabbi Daweedh Bar Hayim is the most extraordinarily truthful and brilliant and Strong Rabbi I have ever met. He is helping to pulling me out of Boro Park mentally and physically and sending me to Judea, mentally and physically.
His Torah and only his Torah is capable of wiping the Galuth off of us.
And NO Rabbi can disprove what he's saying about Sepharadim and Ashkenazim. There isn't a Rabbi alive who can come up with a justification of what we do today which contradicts the Mishna, Talmudh, Tur, and ShulHan Arukh.
If you listen to his shiurim and look up everything he says, you will see that he speaks the truth and there is no hareidi or dati leumi Rav that can disprove him. Not Ovadia Yosef and not Rav Elyashiv.
NO ONE.
machonshilo.org is the place to be for truth-seekers.
Thanks. I can understand. Ive listened to alot of Rabbi David Bar Chaim's shiurim, he has a lot of interesting points. I had a question for him. He says to wear Techelet, but which 1 does he say to wear, is it the Murex?
Yes, the Murex is the true Tekheleth.
-
Judea, I disagree about the Sefaradim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefaradim who attend.
Before you jump on me and say that this causes disunity, etc, you should know that each tribe of Israel lived in its own border, and the land was organized and devided into families where it ended up that you live closer to people who are more related to you, and have the same culture as you.
Im Bukharian Sefaradi and proud of it, and wouldnt like that identity to disappear.
Tzvi, pretending that the country in the Galuth where your great grandfather or my grandfather used to live is the same as the Tribes of Israel does not make it so.
I'm Polish and Russian Ashkenazi and I would like both my Ashkenazi and your Sefardi identity to disappear so that we can be one nation again. Not a bunch of confused people each continuing to define themselves and Ashkenazi and Sefardi and opposed to our true identity. Yehudhi.
That is our only identity.
Yehudhi.
Give up the Galuth, Tzvi.
It's not good for you.
-
??? im guessing you haven't seen the video.(Ive seen the first). They are normal Haredim. In this case they did a lot of good- protesting the gay parade, and shutting down a cremetorium in Israel, good for them, we need more people like that (enforcing Judaism).
I don't think this is a lot of good. The faggots are not threatening Israel with annihilation, and as offensive as it is, neither is the cremation site. A Kahanist government would fight to save Israel right now and would deal with the fags later.
But this is what so many people don't understand, this is saving Israel! The Arabs would pose no threat, no threat whatsoever to the Jewish people if Jews weren't a threat to the Jewish people.
-
Odhahane is right, the problem is also that many only see the physical danger and not the deeper problems that are much greater then the problems with arabs. If people would realize russian non-jews in Israel for example caused and cause much more problems then the arabs. Things like prostitution, homosexuality, drugs and all the other gifts from the western world is destroying Jews and Israel a lot more then arabs with bombs.
-
D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.
Intresting. I thought that the Yemenite Jews were the only Jews who didn't accepted that Herem about polygamy, could you provide a source ?
E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sefardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.
The Yemenite pronunciation is the most accurate and original one.
-
Judea, I disagree about the Sefaradim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefaradim who attend.
Before you jump on me and say that this causes disunity, etc, you should know that each tribe of Israel lived in its own border, and the land was organized and devided into families where it ended up that you live closer to people who are more related to you, and have the same culture as you.
Im Bukharian Sefaradi and proud of it, and wouldnt like that identity to disappear.
Tzvi, pretending that the country in the Galuth where your great grandfather or my grandfather used to live is the same as the Tribes of Israel does not make it so.
I'm Polish and Russian Ashkenazi and I would like both my Ashkenazi and your Sefaradi identity to disappear so that we can be one nation again. Not a bunch of confused people each continuing to define themselves and Ashkenazi and Sefaradi and opposed to our true identity. Yehudhi.
That is our only identity.
Yehudhi.
Give up the Galuth, Tzvi.
It's not good for you.
Our ashkenazi and Sefaradi traditions go way back, and include not just customs (which I have heard from rabbi bar hayyim, can drop off rain off a raincoat if moving). But they include pronounciation.
Suppose people trade in their ashkenazi and Sefaradi differences(customs and pronounciation i guess). We cannot trade them in for the original, before the split, since we do not have the original.
It would be wrong for ashkenazim and Sefaradim to trade their customs for Ashkefadi. It is no better than what they had before. It would probably be a confused inconsistent mishmash.
We should not trade our pronounciation for the "Modern hebrew" pronounciation. That is just east european secular zionists throwing away their heritage by adopting a largely Sefaradi pronounciation, but not getting the details right, because they, those socialists, wanted to get rid of judaism anyway.
A solution may be what Rabbi Bar Hayyim has done.. to adopt a pronounciation which is probably like or equal to, yemenite.. Or based on descriptions from rav saadya gaon. To research what one thinks is the most correct pronounciation. And regarding customs, he, based on jewish sources, throws them off and adopts the ones of the place he lives - israel.
Though although they go way back. If rabbi bar hayyim is developing minchag eretz yisroel, then it is very easy for him to suggest adopting it!!!
-
D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.
Intresting. I thought that the Yemenite Jews were the only Jews who didn't accepted that Herem about polygamy, could you provide a source ?
E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sefardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.
The Yemenite pronunciation is the most accurate and original one.
The Entire Sefardic and Mizrahi world rejected the Herem of Rabenu Gershom and polygamy was universal in the Mizrahi world.
And true, the Yemenite pronunciation is the most accurate although it has three mistakes. There is no Jimel in Hebrew so pronouncing a Gimel as a J sound is wrong and and the Quf should be pronouced exactly as it is in Aramaic and Arabic not as a G like the Yemenites do and the Holem should be an O not an UI. Otherwise their pronunciation is flawless.
I have recently switched from my Ashkenazi pronunciation to the correct one and I suggest that all Jews do the same. In fact, the Torah requires it of them.
-
Judea, I disagree about the Sefaradim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefaradim who attend.
Before you jump on me and say that this causes disunity, etc, you should know that each tribe of Israel lived in its own border, and the land was organized and devided into families where it ended up that you live closer to people who are more related to you, and have the same culture as you.
Im Bukharian Sefaradi and proud of it, and wouldnt like that identity to disappear.
Tzvi, pretending that the country in the Galuth where your great grandfather or my grandfather used to live is the same as the Tribes of Israel does not make it so.
I'm Polish and Russian Ashkenazi and I would like both my Ashkenazi and your Sefaradi identity to disappear so that we can be one nation again. Not a bunch of confused people each continuing to define themselves and Ashkenazi and Sefaradi and opposed to our true identity. Yehudhi.
That is our only identity.
Yehudhi.
Give up the Galuth, Tzvi.
It's not good for you.
Our ashkenazi and Sefaradi traditions go way back, and include not just customs (which I have heard from rabbi bar hayyim, can drop off rain off a raincoat if moving). But they include pronounciation.
Suppose people trade in their ashkenazi and Sefaradi differences(customs and pronounciation i guess). We cannot trade them in for the original, before the split, since we do not have the original.
It would be wrong for ashkenazim and Sefaradim to trade their customs for Ashkefadi. It is no better than what they had before. It would probably be a confused inconsistent mishmash.
We should not trade our pronounciation for the "Modern hebrew" pronounciation. That is just east european secular zionists throwing away their heritage by adopting a largely Sefaradi pronounciation, but not getting the details right, because they, those socialists, wanted to get rid of judaism anyway.
A solution may be what Rabbi Bar Hayyim has done.. to adopt a pronounciation which is probably like or equal to, yemenite.. Or based on descriptions from rav saadya gaon. To research what one thinks is the most correct pronounciation. And regarding customs, he, based on jewish sources, throws them off and adopts the ones of the place he lives - israel.
Though although they go way back. If rabbi bar hayyim is developing minchag eretz yisroel, then it is very easy for him to suggest adopting it!!!
Thanks for the plug,
Listen, if we don't drop these divisive minhagim, we will never coalesce and unify as one nation. This must happen, we cannot exist in Israel for very long disunified in this manner.
And who cares how old a minhag is?
When European Jewry left Europe, their minhagim ceased to be relevant.
-
Actually I heard from Rav Zamir Cohen that the Yeminite Pronounciation is the most correct one, and specifically the Jimmel. (it was mentioned in one of his lectures, hes a big Rabbi In israel who is actually launching T.V. broadcast of lectures to Israel T.V. sets.)
-
Thanks for the plug,
are you rabbi bar hayyim? ;-)
Listen, if we don't drop these divisive minhagim, we will never coalesce and unify as one nation. This must happen, we cannot exist in Israel for very long disunified in this manner.
And who cares how old a minhag is?
When European Jewry left Europe, their minhagim ceased to be relevant.
different minhagim are not causing the disunity that causes problems today. The problem in israel is between Jews and anti-jews.
Sephardim and Ashkenazim get on fine for the most part. Apart from some ashkenazim that sort of see sephardim as arabs!(though that is usually a joke i think) And some sephardim who think they have some kind of perfect judaism, and they are the real jews, and that jews from europe are not.
But for the most part, relations are fine, there is marriage between them. Infact, Rav Binyamin Kahane ztl hyd married a sephardi girl - Talia. One needn`t look far.. And my sephardi friend`s sister married an ashkenazi.. It is very common. The ashkenazi led the service the sephardi way, ashkenazim came to the shul, it was very nice.
"Misnagdim" often look at Chassidim as following a different religion, but we don`t have such problems from it. As long as reform are around, the orthodox stick together!
Regarding pronounciation.
Can Rabbi Bar Hayyim prove beyond doubt that his pronounciation is correct and others wrong. Or is it only a likelyhood thing?
Does he think he is pronouncing it exactly like Rav Saadya Gaon ? And how do we know that Rav Saadya Gaon`s tradition of pronounciation is better than the yemenites?
-
qq is right, bad division does not come from the Torah, but because of the secular entity. Having and maintaining different Minhagim is like having a river (the Torah) with different streams (Askenazi, Sefardi, Yeminite, etc.). Thier were allways differeces between the tribes and also every family. Judaism is not communism where everybody has the same responsibility and way of doing. For example in the Temple the Kohanim have their job's, the Leviim theirs and the Israelites (regular Jews) their own. Everything should remain the way it is as long as it is in the confines of Torah. Making these Mahloket right now would only be counter productive becuase each group (rightfully so) will say that their tradition should be followed.
-
qq is right, bad division does not come from the Torah, but because of the secular entity. Having and maintaining different Minhagim is like having a river (the Torah) with different streams (Askenazi, Sefaradi, Yeminite, etc.). Thier were allways differeces between the tribes and also every family. Judaism is not communism where everybody has the same responsibility and way of doing. For example in the Temple the Kohanim have their job's, the Leviim theirs and the Israelites (regular Jews) their own. Everything should remain the way it is as long as it is in the confines of Torah. Making these Mahloket right now would only be counter productive becuase each group (rightfully so) will say that their tradition should be followed.
I am not saying that all streams of orthodoxy are equally correct, just that it`s not the main problem, and we really do not have the tradition in perfect form as it was at sinai, or even as it was in talmudic times. And if people took this idea seriously, then there would be more Rabbi David Bar Hayyims, and each would come up with his own idea of what is closest to the original.
-
Actually I heard from Rav Zamir Cohen that the Yeminite Pronounciation is the most correct one, and specifically the Jimmel. (it was mentioned in one of his lectures, hes a big Rabbi In israel who is actually launching T.V. broadcast of lectures to Israel T.V. sets.)
Well, Rav Saadia Gaon says specifically that there is no J sound in Hebrew so I would trust him over Rabbi Zamir Cohen.
-
Thanks for the plug,
are you rabbi bar hayyim? ;-)
Listen, if we don't drop these divisive minhagim, we will never coalesce and unify as one nation. This must happen, we cannot exist in Israel for very long disunified in this manner.
And who cares how old a minhag is?
When European Jewry left Europe, their minhagim ceased to be relevant.
different minhagim are not causing the disunity that causes problems today. The problem in israel is between Jews and anti-jews.
Sefaradim and Ashkenazim get on fine for the most part. Apart from some ashkenazim that sort of see Sefaradim as arabs!(though that is usually a joke i think) And some Sefaradim who think they have some kind of perfect judaism, and they are the real jews, and that jews from europe are not.
But for the most part, relations are fine, there is marriage between them. Infact, Rav Binyamin Kahane ztl hyd married a Sefaradi girl - Talia. One needn`t look far.. And my Sefaradi friend`s sister married an ashkenazi.. It is very common. The ashkenazi led the service the Sefaradi way, ashkenazim came to the shul, it was very nice.
"Misnagdim" often look at Chassidim as following a different religion, but we don`t have such problems from it. As long as reform are around, the orthodox stick together!
Regarding pronounciation.
Can Rabbi Bar Hayyim prove beyond doubt that his pronounciation is correct and others wrong. Or is it only a likelyhood thing?
Does he think he is pronouncing it exactly like Rav Saadya Gaon ? And how do we know that Rav Saadya Gaon`s tradition of pronounciation is better than the yemenites?
First of all, you are in a dream world. There is fierce hatred on both sides. I have met alot of Ashkenazim who despise Sefaradim and plenty of Sefaradim who hate Ashkenazim. They do not get along fine together. Every single city has both an ashkenazic and sephardic beth din, in direct contradiction of what the Torah states. That in and of itself is a sign of complete disunity.
And no need to put intermarriage between Ashkenazi and Sefaradi as some sort of sign of goodwill. I am married to a sefardic girl. I wouldn't have it any other way. But that is no proof of unity.
There is deep disuinity in the Jewish people as a result of the Galuth. We need to wipe the Galuth off of us and we can start off by changing minhagim that are only in existence because of the Galuth.
Ashkenazi and Sefaradi are NOT different tribes they are different place where we were exiled to because of our sins.
That is NOT SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tzvi, that is not something that a Yehudhi should say he hopes never goes away.
Tzvi, when you say that you hope your identity as a Bukharian never goes away, that means that you hope the Galuth never goes away.
What a terrible thing to say!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Yes, Rav Bar Hayim can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his is correct based on Rav Saadia Gaon, Rabbi Yaakov Emden and Rashi.
Yes, sir.
Rav Saadia Gaon should be trusted because he is one of the only poseqim who goes into it in depth. and the yemenite pronunciation is almost identical to it.
-
No one can say that his pronounciation is the only legitamate one. Ashkenazi pronounciation and Sefardi pronounciation are both based on legitamate Poskim. One should follow what his fathers followed.
-
And Yes, Rav Bar Hayim can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his is correct based on Rav Saadia Gaon, Rabbi Yaakov Emden and Rashi.
Yes, sir.
Rav Saadia Gaon should be trusted because he is one of the only poseqim who goes into it in depth. and the yemenite pronunciation is almost identical to it.
for a start..
I heard that every letter is meant to be distinct.
According to Rabbi Bar Hayyim,
Regarding the BGDKFT letters (the 6 letters with hard and soft pronounciations. bet,gimel,daled,kaf,peh,taf)
What is the difference between Taf without a dot, and Daled without a dot. I heard that they are both meant to be "th" like "the" or "seth".
And if it is not Gimmel and Jimmel, then what is a gimmel without a dot pronounced like?
-
No one can say that his pronounciation is the only legitamate one. Ashkenazi pronounciation and Sefaradi pronounciation are both based on legitamate Poskim. One should follow what his fathers followed.
That is completely incorrect.
None of the pronounciations are based on the words of ANY posqim.
And one should NOT follow an incorrect custom or pronunciation simply because his father did so.
-
And Yes, Rav Bar Hayim can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his is correct based on Rav Saadia Gaon, Rabbi Yaakov Emden and Rashi.
Yes, sir.
Rav Saadia Gaon should be trusted because he is one of the only poseqim who goes into it in depth. and the yemenite pronunciation is almost identical to it.
for a start..
I heard that every letter is meant to be distinct.
According to Rabbi Bar Hayyim,
Regarding the BGDKFT letters (the 6 letters with hard and soft pronounciations. bet,gimel,daled,kaf,peh,taf)
What is the difference between Taf without a dot, and Daled without a dot. I heard that they are both meant to be "th" like "the" or "seth".
And if it is not Gimmel and Jimmel, then what is a gimmel without a dot pronounced like?
The letter Taf that you refer to should actually be pronounced Taw and without a dot it should pronounced "TH" like BaTH.
The Letter Daled should be pronounced Daleth and without a dot, it should be pronounced "TH" as in weaTHer or GaTHer.
And a Gimmel without a dot is pronounced gh. There is no sound in english to use for comparison but the closest sound is a French "R". Or somewhere between a French "R" and a KH sound.
-
judeanoncapta, I am very interested in what you said about the proper pronunciation of Hebrew. Are there any books or tools that you suggest I use?
Not that I have found.
I learned it from from my Rav, Rabbi Daweedh Bar Hayim.
He taught me.
But I can make a video for you teaching the right pronunciation if you like. I have been thinking about doing one for a long time.
-
And a Gimmel without a dot is pronounced gh. There is no sound in english to use for comparison but the closest sound is a French "R". Or somewhere between a French "R" and a KH sound.
As in the Greek letter gamma, and as in the Dutch letter G?
-
No one can say that his pronounciation is the only legitamate one. Ashkenazi pronounciation and Sefaradi pronounciation are both based on legitamate Poskim. One should follow what his fathers followed.
is this a joke i am ashkenaz but i know there are many flaws in our hebrew. such as ashkenazim say o as oy as in gemarah some ashkenazim say gemoyrah. and there more and how come ashkenziam say gut shabbos that is not even close to hebrew its shabot shalom
-
No one can say that his pronounciation is the only legitamate one. Ashkenazi pronounciation and Sefaradi pronounciation are both based on legitamate Poskim. One should follow what his fathers followed.
is this a joke i am ashkenaz but i know there are many flaws in our hebrew. such as ashkenazim say o as oy as in gemarah some ashkenazim say gemoyrah. and there more and how come ashkenziam say gut shabbos that is not even close to hebrew its shabot shalom
well, Gut is obviously Yiddish. The word itself is yiddish
You have really got totally confused
It is not even a hebrew word pronounced in yiddish . That is plain yiddish.
there are other examples.. Of hebrew words spoken in Yiddish. Yaakuv is yiddish. SuhCus is yiddish. Correct ashkenazi hebrew, there is no uh there, in either of the words. it should be SueCose, and YaaKove. Ask any lainer. The cholem sound has variant traditions though - depending on place in europe the ashkenazim were from, .. Ai,Oy,ow
But don`t go saying ashkenazy hebrew is so wrong, andas if sephardi is right. That is just false. I mentioned about the taf. And I am sure sephardim have variations too.. Not just yemenites and the rest.
-
No, Ashkenazi Hebrew is not sooooo wrong and sefaradi hebrew soooo wrong.
But since our sages, mainly, Rav Saadia Gaon but also Rabbi Yaakov Emden, Rashi and the Ibn Ezra have been so kind as to explain to us how to pronounce hebrew, Why are we even having this discussion?
Just switch to the correct pronounciation. What's the problem?
And don't tell me, "I must continue doing whatever my father did."
That is a untenable position. Continuing a mistake just because your father did so ensures that nothing will ever be corrected.
That cannot be what G-d wants from us. Absolute fidelity to incorrect pronunciation.
-
No, Ashkenazi Hebrew is not sooooo wrong and sefaradi hebrew soooo wrong.
I don`t know to whome you are referring your statement to.
But since our sages, mainly, Rav Saadia Gaon but also Rabbi Yaakov Emden, Rashi and the Ibn Ezra have been so kind as to explain to us how to pronounce hebrew, Why are we even having this discussion?
Just switch to the correct pronounciation. What's the problem?
And don't tell me, "I must continue doing whatever my father did."
That is a untenable position. Continuing a mistake just because your father did so ensures that nothing will ever be corrected.
That cannot be what G-d wants from us. Absolute fidelity to incorrect pronunciation.
it is difficult enough to switch from the Ivrit/modern hebrew/secular zionist pronounciation taught in modern orthodox schools and many shuls. Into our father`s ashkenazi or sephardi pronounciation.
But to change to a pronounciation that only Rabbi Bar Hayyim and his students know, that is just unfeasible. And if he is so sure, then he should write an article that proves it beyond any doubt. Proving not just that neither ashkenazi nor sephardi can be right. But proving that his pronounciation is right. And then that can be put to expert rabbis with different positions, and we can see the arguments against. And then we can decide what is correct.
-
It is irrelevant if the Hebrew letters sound exactly like they did 1000 years ago since regional variations are considered acceptable ever since the Biblical Era. I remember in Shoftim it says that a certain tribe pronounced the Shin as a Sin.
-
It is irrelevant if the Hebrew letters sound exactly like they did 1000 years ago since regional variations are considered acceptable ever since the Biblical Era. I remember in Shoftim it says that a certain tribe pronounced the Shin as a Sin.
I am not sure where it is there, but
I heard it as they *couldn`t* pronounce it. So they pronounced it as sin. It was a mistake to do so!
http://urj.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=2091 <-- excuse the website!
in this portion the word shever meaning rations or food is used several times. Torah teaches that one of the southern tribes of Israel, Ephraim, could not pronounce the "sh" sound and always pronounced it as an "s." The word shever then became sever which means hope. The midrash explains that not only was there food in Egypt, but hope as well. When is food like hope? Have you and your family ever participated in feeding the hungry? If you have, did it feel like you were spreading hope? (Genesis Rabbah 91.1)
--
Furthermore, modern hebrew pronounciation is man made. Don`t put that on the same level as our traditions.
-
No, Ashkenazi Hebrew is not sooooo wrong and sefaradi hebrew soooo wrong.
I don`t know to whome you are referring your statement to.
But since our sages, mainly, Rav Saadia Gaon but also Rabbi Yaakov Emden, Rashi and the Ibn Ezra have been so kind as to explain to us how to pronounce hebrew, Why are we even having this discussion?
Just switch to the correct pronounciation. What's the problem?
And don't tell me, "I must continue doing whatever my father did."
That is a untenable position. Continuing a mistake just because your father did so ensures that nothing will ever be corrected.
That cannot be what G-d wants from us. Absolute fidelity to incorrect pronunciation.
it is difficult enough to switch from the Ivrit/modern hebrew/secular zionist pronounciation taught in modern orthodox schools and many shuls. Into our father`s ashkenazi or Sefaradi pronounciation.
But to change to a pronounciation that only Rabbi Bar Hayyim and his students know, that is just unfeasible. And if he is so sure, then he should write an article that proves it beyond any doubt. Proving not just that neither ashkenazi nor Sefaradi can be right. But proving that his pronounciation is right. And then that can be put to expert rabbis with different positions, and we can see the arguments against. And then we can decide what is correct.
First of all, he already wrote such an article. It was on his previous website. Torahlight.com but he shut down that site and did not carry the article over to machon shilo.
But I would suggest that you read the perush of Rabbi Saadia Gaon to the Sefer Yetzirah in which he says that hebrew and arabic are identical except for the fact that Hebrew has no J sound, no palatial D and no Palatial DH and Arabic has no P, no G and no V.
Otherwise the consonants are identical.
Therefore let's take a look and the Hebrew and Arab Alphabets so that we figure out the identical letters.
The most common Abjad sequence is (from left to right):
أ ب ج د ﻫ و ز ح ط ي ك ل م ن س ع ف ص ق ر ش ت ث خ ذ ض ظ غ
This is pretty much identical to the sequence in Hebrew alphabet but the Alphabet that is completely identical to the Hebrew Alphabet is the Aramaic Alphabet. Take alook.
Letter name Letter form Equivalent Hebrew Sound value
Ālaph
Bēth
Gāmal
Dālath
Hē
Waw
Zain
Hēth
Tēth
Yudh
Kāph
Lāmadh
Mim
Nun
Semkath
‘Ē
Pē
Sādhē
Qoph
Rēsh
Shin
Tau
As any of you can see this is identical to Hebrew.
After all, Part of the Tanakh was written in Aramaic so an identical alphabet makes perfect sense.
So the matter is actually quite simple. Listen to an Arabic or Aramaic speaker pronounce a Sadi and you will see how to pronounce it.
This is quite simple. The correct way to pronounce the consonants is well known.
The vowels are a little harder, but knowable.
Every single Jewish community pronounces a Hiriq and a Shva and Patah and a Shubuk the same.
I am choosing to not including the Polish and Hungarian for consideration because it so wildly incorrect.
The only vowels that are contested are segol, tsere, Kametz and Holem.
Rabbi Yaakov Emden says clearly that Sefardim are incorrect in pronouncing a Kametz and a Patah and in pronouncing a Tsere and a segol the same so the question is how do these nekudot differ.
Are the ashkenazim correct in pronouncing a tzere and ay?
Of course not. How why in the world would a yudh be continually added to words whose nikud is a tzere. It makes no sense. The yudh would be redundant if you are supposed to pronounce it as an ay. the Same goes for the CHoylem that ashkenazim say oy instead of o. It make no sense. One can safely say that tzere and holem should be pronounced the way sefaradim do.
Therefore, how is a segol different from a tzere?
Rashi calls a segol a patah katan. a small A sound.
Therefore the yementie way of prouncing segol like the a in rat cat bad and mad makes perfect sense and should be followed.
Now the Kametz. Well, we know that it must be different from a patah and the yemenite and ashkenazi kametz is the same so we should pronounce it like the a in father.
-
well.. your explanation seems logical. I did see his article on his old torahlight site. It was probably less detailed than your post.. Your post is v good. I am unimpressed that his site came down(that domain is now a jews for jesus site), and his other site with his shiurim came down too, before then. I don`t like the design of his machonshilo site either - too modern/snazzy..
Regarding the Taf with a dot. Do you give it a generic name with or without a dot? or 2 different names?
<Judea>The letter Taf that you refer to should actually be pronounced Taw and without a dot it
<Judea>should pronounced "TH" like BaTH.
When you say Taw/Tau, do you mean as in ouch?
Looking at T with dot.
Gen 1:24 Tohtzay haaretz
with Tohtzay, the "Taw" is in the beginning.
It is followed by a vav acting as a silent vowel-letter, it has a cholem on it.
How do you pronounce the first syllable?
starts with t, then
ou as in ouch(like couch) ,
O (like boris),
?
How about
Gen 16:32
HeAchaltee
How are you pronouncing that - the tee part?
T with dot, followed by yud with chirik
Do you pronounce it the same, or does it get some kind of "ow" sound ?
----------------
I wonder if maybe we should start a new thread for this?
Are you willing to detail further how to pronounce it, in the sense of how it differs from ivrit or ashkenazi ? It looks like quite a job..
If I can understand it, I will happily explain to others how you and rabbi bar hayyim pronounce it.. with some posts on usenet too, so it is archived properly(one trusts Google`s usenet archive!).
I know I said vav instead of waw, but that is because I was asking about the taf/taw specifically..
And regearding the T without a dot. When you say Bath. Do you mean like somebody with a lisp trying to say The. A better example.. the word Thermal. So the Th is softer than the word The.
So, Gen 1:2. Tohu VaVohu , the Tohu is actually Thohu where the Th is as in Thermal ?
thanks
-
well.. your explanation seems logical. I did see his article on his old torahlight site. It was probably less detailed than your post.. Your post is v good. I am unimpressed that his site came down(that domain is now a jews for jesus site), and his other site with his shiurim came down too, before then. I don`t like the design of his machonshilo site either - too modern/snazzy..
Regarding the Taf with a dot. Do you give it a generic name with or without a dot? or 2 different names?
<Judea>The letter Taf that you refer to should actually be pronounced Taw and without a dot it
<Judea>should pronounced "TH" like BaTH.
When you say Taw/Tau, do you mean as in ouch?
Looking at T with dot.
Gen 1:24 Tohtzay haaretz
with Tohtzay, the "Taw" is in the beginning.
It is followed by a vav acting as a silent vowel-letter, it has a cholem on it.
How do you pronounce the first syllable?
starts with t, then
ou as in ouch(like couch) ,
O (like boris),
?
How about
Gen 16:32
HeAchaltee
How are you pronouncing that - the tee part?
T with dot, followed by yud with chirik
Do you pronounce it the same, or does it get some kind of "ow" sound ?
----------------
I wonder if maybe we should start a new thread for this?
Are you willing to detail further how to pronounce it, in the sense of how it differs from ivrit or ashkenazi ? It looks like quite a job..
If I can understand it, I will happily explain to others how you and rabbi bar hayyim pronounce it.. with some posts on usenet too, so it is archived properly(one trusts Google`s usenet archive!).
I know I said vav instead of waw, but that is because I was asking about the taf/taw specifically..
And regearding the T without a dot. When you say Bath. Do you mean like somebody with a lisp trying to say The. A better example.. the word Thermal. So the Th is softer than the word The.
So, Gen 1:2. Tohu VaVohu , the Tohu is actually Thohu where the Th is as in Thermal ?
thanks
Great idea, I will start a new thread for pronunciation discussions right now.
-
Judea, I disagree about the Sefaradim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefaradim who attend.
Before you jump on me and say that this causes disunity, etc, you should know that each tribe of Israel lived in its own border, and the land was organized and devided into families where it ended up that you live closer to people who are more related to you, and have the same culture as you.
Im Bukharian Sefaradi and proud of it, and wouldnt like that identity to disappear.
Tzvi, pretending that the country in the Galuth where your great grandfather or my grandfather used to live is the same as the Tribes of Israel does not make it so.
I'm Polish and Russian Ashkenazi and I would like both my Ashkenazi and your Sefaradi identity to disappear so that we can be one nation again. Not a bunch of confused people each continuing to define themselves and Ashkenazi and Sefaradi and opposed to our true identity. Yehudhi.
That is our only identity.
Yehudhi.
Give up the Galuth, Tzvi.
It's not good for you.
I think it will happen naturally, the forced melting pot in Israel made problems and problems and problems.
-
What gets me is why would anyone in Israel wish to have a furnace to burn a body to ash. Can you say "Do you remember?"
Again I am currently studying under a Rabbi out of Israel. He has some very interesting ideas and thoughts as to why many Jewish people have become secular. I may share these on a later post.