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Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 17, 2008, 09:49:55 PM

Title: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 17, 2008, 09:49:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Irz8D6y40w&feature=channel_page
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: ~Hanna~ on December 17, 2008, 11:11:11 PM
Oh, Thankyou for posting this, I never had heard all of this before, now it more clear to me...

IS THERE SOMEWHERE I COULD FIND OUT SOME MORE ABOUT THIS????

thanks so much.....
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: ~Hanna~ on December 18, 2008, 02:06:44 AM
Don't everybody jump in here and tell me all at once....

I cannot handle all the information.... :laugh:
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 02:16:22 AM
I didn't see the video but I assume this is discussing the Noachide laws?

I am fully supportive of any non-Jew who wants to accept unto themselves the seven laws of Noach. There is much written about it and Breslov is involved in teaching non-Jews how to be good Noachides.

http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/society/noahide_world/the_seven_mitzvot_bnei_noach.aspx?id=1902&language=english

http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/society/noahide_world/the_noahide_focus.aspx?id=10473&language=english

Quote

‘Don’t Forget the World to Come’
The Garden of Emuna, page 38
 
Back when I was a Philosophy major one of the philosophers I studied was David Hume. He questioned everything. I mean everything, even things that no normal person would ever think to question, like causality for example. To explain how Hume could question such a thing our professor took a dusty felt eraser and pushed it along the aluminum chalk tray. We watched the eraser move along and bump up against the spare eraser, moving it forward. All you are really seeing, the professor explained, is a sequence of events- Eraser A gets really close to Eraser B. You never see the causality. We posit it. But we don’t see it. That’s what Hume thought. Although, unlike me, Hume had no use for religion, he ironically modeled the kind of diligent questioning of ‘reality’ that I feel I must engage in to stay connected to Hashem.   
 
We see everything that Hashem does, but we don’t see Him, the Cause. We see everything He created, but we don’t see Him. He created me, the brain I’m using, the fingers I’m typing with, the air I’m breathing, the gravity that is keeping me in His chair at His desk on His planet- yet I can not see Him. He is sustaining it all, all of the time, yet I can not see Him.
 
We talk to Him, but we don’t hear back, at least not in words. Our lives are a sequence of events that are designed by Him to be super physical to us, that dominate our senses, that scream for our attention. They are so real to us they seem like the end, but they are merely a means. And we are supposed to see the Cause of all of this despite the distraction of the noisy ‘this’ that He created. We are to look through the opaque objects of our senses to see something invisible. We are supposed to remember the World to Come, to put this world and everything in it to work to get us to this thing that is very challenging to even fathom for a moment.
 
Ironically, when I try to imagine the World to Come and keep it in the foreground so I won’t forget it, this world that I’m stuck in now becomes a much nicer place for me and lots of people around me. But if I focus on the stuff screaming for my attention and forget about the World I can’t really imagine and the Creator I can’t see, my life and the lives of the people around me will stink. That is the life of a religious person.
 
One of the really rewarding/not at all rewarding things about living the life of a Ben or Bat Noach is that we don’t have a culture that flows from our spiritual beliefs. If there was a way of living as a Believer back in the days of the Temple, for example, we only have the faintest, teeny, tiniest idea of what it was.  So there are no recipes passed on from grandma to grand daughter, no rituals, no artifacts. These things that connect a Jew to his or her past - or at least to some part of the tribe - we do not have. That is sad at times. And hard. To use the recipes of someone else’s grandmother feels odd. To play someone else’s games at a holiday can feel like imitation. Not so rewarding, not for me at least.
 
But like I said, in keeping with the seemingly incongruous demands that Hashem makes of us, there is a rewarding aspect to living as a Bat Noach without a culture. The trappings of culture can become things unto themselves. They can become the end instead of the means. It can become the Thanksgiving dinner where no one thinks about giving thanks. I could see myself slipping into that trap, meandering into a miasma of cultural curiosities. Then it all becomes something like pretty pictures in an issue of “National Geographic”.
 
Whatever we have in front of us can become a distraction. We can be in a synagogue, on top of a mountain, or in a grocery store. It can all be a distraction. The challenge is to see Hashem wherever we are, through good and bad, whether up or down – that’s the Noahide focus and optimal-level faith that we should all strive for. When the physical world no longer fools us, we attain real spiritual maturity. And even then, there will be new challenges and distractions. In this world we must work, that means working hard like Noah. In the World to Come, there will be plenty of time for rest.

http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/society/noahide_world/guidelines_for_the_noahide_perplexed.aspx?id=8190&language=english

I hope that you find some useful information at these links...

muman613
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 02:20:07 AM
Breslov are "charismatic" Jews like the Lubavitch, right?
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: ~Hanna~ on December 18, 2008, 02:41:52 AM
Thankyou Muman for all the information, I will have alot to ponder.

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 02:47:40 AM
Breslov are "charismatic" Jews like the Lubavitch, right?

Yes, they are pretty Charismatic too...  ;D

I think you mean Chassidic... Both Lubavitch and Breslov are Chassidic strains of Judaism...

And the Breslov Rebbes are also very Charismatic... I have been watching Rabbi Lazer Brody and Rabbi Shalom Arush who both are very glowing personalities. When I see videos of the Lubavitch Rebbe I also see a glow in his face and imagine what it must have been like in his presence.

Rabbi Brody talks about Moshiach,Geula, and saving lives : http://www.breslev.co.il/FilesUpload/Media/Video/English/1.asx
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 18, 2008, 03:37:14 AM
just google Noachide.

you could contact a rabbi in your area, one that should be a bit prepared!
here i'm sure is such a list
http://www.asknoah.org/Academy.html


these is a classic book
The Rainbow Covenant: Torah and the Seven Universal Laws

and this one is too
The Path of the Righteous Gentile: An Introduction to the Seven Laws of the Children of Noah (Hardcover)
by Chaim Clorfene (Author), Yaakov Rogalsky (Author)
(FELDHEIM) <-- religious jews should know they publish quality books
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: ~Hanna~ on December 18, 2008, 05:40:18 AM
Breslov are "charismatic" Jews like the Lubavitch, right?

Yes, they are pretty Charismatic too...  ;D

I think you mean Chassidic... Both Lubavitch and Breslov are Chassidic strains of Judaism...

And the Breslov Rebbes are also very Charismatic... I have been watching Rabbi Lazer Brody and Rabbi Shalom Arush who both are very glowing personalities. When I see videos of the Lubavitch Rebbe I also see a glow in his face and imagine what it must have been like in his presence.

Rabbi Brody talks about Moshiach,Geula, and saving lives : http://www.breslev.co.il/FilesUpload/Media/Video/English/1.asx

Please explain....this Charismatic thing....cuz the Christians have Charismatic's too.....so I would like to know.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 18, 2008, 05:50:45 AM
Breslov are "charismatic" Jews like the Lubavitch, right?

Yes, they are pretty Charismatic too...  ;D

I think you mean Chassidic... Both Lubavitch and Breslov are Chassidic strains of Judaism...

And the Breslov Rebbes are also very Charismatic... I have been watching Rabbi Lazer Brody and Rabbi Shalom Arush who both are very glowing personalities. When I see videos of the Lubavitch Rebbe I also see a glow in his face and imagine what it must have been like in his presence.

Rabbi Brody talks about Moshiach,Geula, and saving lives : http://www.breslev.co.il/FilesUpload/Media/Video/English/1.asx

Please explain....this Charismatic thing....cuz the Christians have Charismatic's too.....so I would like to know.

this whole thing really has nothing to do with noachides.

it's a particular branch of orthodox judaism.

it's really the lack of wisdom of people to bring this up when the issue is really the 7 noachide laws.

They just happen to be teaching about it quite a bit, but to start with, and even to end with, I don't think you should narrow yourself to the explanation given by a particular charismatic group. You perhaps. But it's not a logical sensible way of doing things.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Zelhar on December 18, 2008, 12:27:53 PM
I would keep away form Breslav. They are not at all like Chabad.

In fact the original Breslav chassidim (probably by now outnumbered to new joiners) are associated to (if not part of)  the ultracrazy anti-zionist "Haeda Hacharedit" from Jerusalem.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 12:34:17 PM
I would keep away form Breslav. They are not at all like Chabad.

In fact the original Breslav chassidim (probably by now outnumbered to new joiners) are associated to (if not part of)  the ultracrazy anti-zionist "Haeda Hacharedit" from Jerusalem.

Zelhar,

You are aware that Breslov is located in Jerusalem now... They are not zionist but they support Jews in Israel and they support people making Aliyah... Please provide a link supporting your claims. Chabad is more anti-Zionist than Breslov in many respects... Breslov doesnt support sending people to the diaspora rather they support bringing them back to Israel.

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Zelhar on December 18, 2008, 12:58:14 PM
Muman I don't want to make a rush judgement against all Breslavs. The fact is that they are hardly (if at all) a single Chassiduth. One of their factions is lead by Rabbi Yaakov Meir Schechter, who is an anti zionist from Mea Shearim, Jerusalem. He and his followers are descendants of the original Breslav Chassidim and they don't like to recruit others to their ranks.

On the other hand, rabbi Eliezer Berland (who bacame breslav, not born into it), is actually very right winger. There is not much friendship between different factions of the Breslavs. The common thing is that they all revere Rabbi Nachman and his student rabbi Natan and study their teachings.

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 18, 2008, 01:06:27 PM
Neither Breslov or Chabad are "dangerous" and need to be "kept away from" !

(it is possible with chabad that you don't like a particular chabad house, but then another will be fine)

You could replace the term zionist with "National Religious".  Hardcore non or anti zionists won't like that either.. the question is, what aspects of it are they for and what aspects are they against.  I think you'd find that they favour -continued- sovereignty(to protect(not endanger) jewish lives) , and an army(to protect jewish lives), and even not giving away land (to not endanger jewish lives).
All because if we don't then jewish lives will be lost.
A RZ/proper national religious, would say the above are torah mandates in themselves.
G-d actually wants us ro rule there. (may mention the RAMBAN that includes a mitzva of conquer it in every generation)  
The 1967 6 day war paralleled the bible story of Joshua's 6 day war and is a clear obvious sign that G-d wanted and wants us to conquer the land. (so, divine providence)

A fairly hardcore anti zionist might say it's a sin, and if they could remove it peacefully they would but it's not possible. The arabs would not let us just leave in peace, they would pounce. So therefore it stays. A matter of not endangering jewish lives even more.  
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 01:10:26 PM
Zelhar,

As someone here in another thread posted it is common for Orthodox strains of Judaism to take up what appears to be an 'anti-zionist' stance. What this really is is opposition to a 'Secular State of Israel'. All strains of Judaism, especially Chassidic strains, are ZIONIST in the sense that they envision the future with Jews in Israel, run as a Torah state. This is what our Prophets foresaw, not the phoney baloney secular Jewish state run by clowns like Smolmert. It is a Chillul Hashem that Jews in Israel are the pawns of America or any other power in the world. All forms of Orthodox Judaism hold disdain for the going ons in Israel today.

When I read the news in Israel sometimes I ask myself why are Jews in Israel altogether. It sometimes seems the majority of Israelis have no connection to Judaism and don't even know why they are there, the land is not Holy to them. I have a dream that when the time comes their Jewish spirit will awaken inside them and the era of Moshiach will be ushered in.

Breslov {the strain led by Rabbi Shalom Arush} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalom_arush is working on bringing Moshiach and they feel that he is right around the corner. In order for the Messianic age to happen all Jews must be in Israel {the ingathering of exiles}. Although it is not your typical 'Zionist' ideology, it is the way I see Jewish history.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 18, 2008, 01:12:31 PM
Zelhar,

As someone here in another thread posted it is common for Orthodox strains of Judaism to take up what appears to be an 'anti-zionist' stance. What this really is is opposition to a 'Secular State of Israel'. All strains of Judaism, especially Chassidic strains, are ZIONIST in the sense that they envision the future with Jews in Israel, run as a Torah state. This is what our Prophets foresaw, <snip>

what you said there is confused.

But who is the someone that you refer to?
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 01:30:20 PM
You perhaps. But it's not a logical sensible way of doing things.
I am so sorry, I forgot you are the only person on the forum who uses logic!
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 01:31:28 PM
Muman and Tzvi, correct me if I am wrong, but do Noahides accept the whole Torah? I thought they just accept the Seven Laws.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 01:36:52 PM
Please explain....this Charismatic thing....cuz the Christians have Charismatic's too.....so I would like to know.
Charismatics are members of an established monotheistic, Biblical faith (Christianity or Judaism) who, albeit being theologically orthodox, are more experientially and "Spirit"--oriented than their brethren in the same faiths. They emphasize joy, celebration, G-d's love, and welcoming/outreaching to all fellow Christians and Jews more than doctrinal matters. In Christianity, the Pentecostal (like Assemblies of G-d, which is Sarah Palin's church) and Calvary Chapel denominations are "charismatic". In Judaism, the Lubavitch/Chabad and Breslov Chasidim movements are "charismatic".

One thing to note is that the charismatic Christians are especially likely to be strong Zionists.

If one wants to discuss Nazi religions, you could probably call the Sufis/Dervishes "charismatic Muslims", but I prefer not to pollute the term by applying it to devil-worship.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 18, 2008, 01:42:04 PM
You perhaps. But it's not a logical sensible way of doing things.
I am so sorry, I forgot you are the only person on the forum who uses logic!

KahaneBT is pretty good, and quite a regular poster on torah subjects, though he's not in this thread.

One has to be really bad to make a mess of this.. and many are really bad.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 01:43:50 PM
KahaneBT is pretty good, and quite a regular poster on torah subjects, though he's not in this thread.
Nice to see some humility from you at last...
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 01:45:19 PM
I would keep away form Breslav. They are not at all like Chabad.

In fact the original Breslav chassidim (probably by now outnumbered to new joiners) are associated to (if not part of)  the ultracrazy anti-zionist "Haeda Hacharedit" from Jerusalem.

Zelhar,

You are aware that Breslov is located in Jerusalem now... They are not zionist but they support Jews in Israel and they support people making Aliyah... Please provide a link supporting your claims. Chabad is more anti-Zionist than Breslov in many respects... Breslov doesnt support sending people to the diaspora rather they support bringing them back to Israel.



Very true, in fact it is almost impossible to grow a Diaspora Breslov community because as soon as they read what Rabbi Nachman has to say about the Land of Israel, they move here.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 01:46:56 PM
I thought Chabad were extremely Zionist.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 01:50:00 PM
Muman and Tzvi, correct me if I am wrong, but do Noahides accept the whole Torah? I thought they just accept the Seven Laws.

If you don't beleive in the prophecy of Moses, how can you accept the Seven Laws written therein?

Although if you mean accept as in "are required to keep and practice", then no. Noahides are not required to keep those commandments that were commanded by G-d through Moses to the Children of Israel.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 18, 2008, 01:52:45 PM
KahaneBT is pretty good, and quite a regular poster on torah subjects, though he's not in this thread.
Nice to see some humility from you at last...

I've said many times that he is quite logical, but you missed it because the threads were high level , you weren't in them.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 01:54:45 PM
Please explain....this Charismatic thing....cuz the Christians have Charismatic's too.....so I would like to know.
Charismatics are members of an established monotheistic, Biblical faith (Christianity or Judaism) who, albeit being theologically orthodox, are more experientially and "Spirit"--oriented than their brethren in the same faiths. They emphasize joy, celebration, G-d's love, and welcoming/outreaching to all fellow Christians and Jews more than doctrinal matters. In Christianity, the Pentecostal (like Assemblies of G-d, which is Sarah Palin's church) and Calvary Chapel denominations are "charismatic". In Judaism, the Lubavitch/Chabad and Breslov Chasidim movements are "charismatic".

One thing to note is that the charismatic Christians are especially likely to be strong Zionists.

If one wants to discuss Nazi religions, you could probably call the Sufis/Dervishes "charismatic Muslims", but I prefer not to pollute the term by applying it to devil-worship.

Actually during the crusades, Saladin invited Sufi Imams to watch his men behead prisoners of war. They gleefully accepted.

So therefore charismatic Muslims are charismatic about Islam. Which means being charismatic about Bloodshed and Death.

In fact one of the main Islamic factions who are building up toward violent revolution in Morrocco are Sufi.

Also the Chechens belong to a Sufi sect and they've blowing up Infidels for quite a while now.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 01:59:01 PM
I thought Chabad were extremely Zionist.

No, Chabad beleives that the State of Israel should never have been established but now that it is and the Arabs would slaughter us if  we give them half a chance, it should be maintained as a matter of life and death.

They do not view the establishment of the State as part of any Messianic or End Times scenario.

I beleive lubab would say the same thing I just wrote. He has written it in other threads.

I disagree with this position wholeheartedly and so does Chaim, but that is the Chabad position.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Zelhar on December 18, 2008, 02:02:30 PM
I just want to make it clear, by anti-zionist I mean the Charedim who consider the establishment of any Jewish state before Meshiach comes as a rebellion against God.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 18, 2008, 02:06:30 PM
I thought Chabad were extremely Zionist.

No, Chabad beleives that the State of Israel should never have been established but now that it is and the Arabs would slaughter us if  we give them half a chance, it should be maintained as a matter of life and death.

They do not view the establishment of the State as part of any Messianic or End Times scenario.

I beleive lubab would say the same thing I just wrote. He has written it in other threads.

I disagree with this position wholeheartedly and so does Chaim, but that is the Chabad position.

and of course not just chabad..

Maybe religious zionists are a minority of orthodox jews even in israel.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 02:08:18 PM
I thought Chabad were extremely Zionist.

No, Chabad beleives that the State of Israel should never have been established but now that it is and the Arabs would slaughter us if  we give them half a chance, it should be maintained as a matter of life and death.

They do not view the establishment of the State as part of any Messianic or End Times scenario.

I beleive lubab would say the same thing I just wrote. He has written it in other threads.

I disagree with this position wholeheartedly and so does Chaim, but that is the Chabad position.

and of course not just chabad..

Maybe religious zionists are a minority of orthodox jews even in israel.

No, it's about half and half.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 18, 2008, 02:10:25 PM
<snip>
Maybe religious zionists are a minority of orthodox jews even in israel.

No, it's about half and half.


half and half in growth too?
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 02:12:40 PM
<snip>
Maybe religious zionists are a minority of orthodox jews even in israel.

No, it's about half and half.


half and half in growth too?

No, the haredi growth rate is atleast 50 percent higher.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 02:22:56 PM
Actually during the crusades, Saladin invited Sufi Imams to watch his men behead prisoners of war. They gleefully accepted.

So therefore charismatic Muslims are charismatic about Islam. Which means being charismatic about Bloodshed and Death.

In fact one of the main Islamic factions who are building up toward violent revolution in Morrocco are Sufi.

Also the Chechens belong to a Sufi sect and they've blowing up Infidels for quite a while now.
Of course the Sufi are evil jihadist Nazis--that was not in doubt. That is why I questioned whether it would be fair to use the term "charismatic" (which is generally used just for righteous religions) on them. But Sufis are experientially- and emotionally-oriented Muslims in their practice, so they are charismatic in that way.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 02:24:33 PM
If you don't beleive in the prophecy of Moses, how can you accept the Seven Laws written therein?

Although if you mean accept as in "are required to keep and practice", then no. Noahides are not required to keep those commandments that were commanded by G-d through Moses to the Children of Israel.
Sorry, I meant "required to keep" by accept.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 02:26:30 PM
I've said many times that he is quite logical, but you missed it because the threads were high level , you weren't in them.
I do believe I was using sarcasm; I guess you missed it.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 02:34:46 PM
They do not view the establishment of the State as part of any Messianic or End Times scenario.
Hmmm. Interesting topic. I do not know nearly enough about this so I will defer to your judgment. But what matters is that Lubavitchim are devoutly Zionist in practice. They love their brothers and sisters more than anything else. In terms of everyday Jews one is likely to encounter, you won't meet anyone who loves their country and fellow Jews more than the Chabad.

In terms of "Messianic" and eschatological reasons for being Zionists, I admit I don't know a lot about this topic as applied to Judaism, but in a way I don't necessarily think that should be the reason why we support Israel in the first place. To explain what I mean using my own faith, some Christians primarily support Israel because they think it is necessary for the completion of the end times and the Second Coming of Jesus, and that is completely the wrong idea. We should support Israel simply because it is G-d's Chosen People and nation--it is as simple as that.

Getting back to the Chabad, even if they are anti-Zionist in theory, I will overlook that because their behavior and practice is what matters much more. A lot of left-wing, secular Jews support Israel in theory, but in practice want her to commit national suicide. I definitely support the Chabad a lot more than the Satmar and their Jewish Martin Luther "rabbi" Joel Teitelbaum, who to his last gasp labored feverishly to annihilate the Jewish nation and all of his brothers and sisters living there.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 02:40:43 PM
No, the haredi growth rate is atleast 50 percent higher.
Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 18, 2008, 02:48:54 PM
No, the haredi growth rate is atleast 50 percent higher.
Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?


 You are an absurdity. G-d forbid that anyone should say that Jews having a high birth rate is a problem.

Anyway the topic is not about Haredim and the state, etc. It is about the nations getting ride of their klippot and accepting the Noahide laws that G-d has intended for them.
 ( It's also a simple video I came across and wanted to share).
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 02:50:35 PM
No, the haredi growth rate is atleast 50 percent higher.
Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?

That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 02:51:32 PM
You are an absurdity. G-d forbid that anyone should say that Jews having a high birth rate is a problem.
You do a stunning job of taking comments in context!
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Zelhar on December 18, 2008, 02:52:42 PM
No, the haredi growth rate is atleast 50 percent higher.
Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?


 You are an absurdity. G-d forbid that anyone should say that Jews having a high birth rate is a problem.

Anyway the topic is not about Haredim and the state, etc. It is about the nations getting ride of their klippot and accepting the Noahide laws that G-d has intended for them.
 ( It's also a simple video I came across and wanted to share).
Tzvi, this is not the place for such activity.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 02:54:25 PM
That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.
Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?

I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 18, 2008, 02:58:00 PM
<snip>
Anyway the topic is not about Haredim and the state, etc. It is about the nations getting ride of their klippot and accepting the Noahide laws that G-d has intended for them.
 ( It's also a simple video I came across and wanted to share).
Tzvi, this is not the place for such activity.

Tzvi wasn't targetting against any particular religion. I don't think it is bad or offensive on a jewish forum to talk of the 7 laws
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 03:11:20 PM
No, the haredi growth rate is atleast 50 percent higher.
Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?


 You are an absurdity. G-d forbid that anyone should say that Jews having a high birth rate is a problem.

Anyway the topic is not about Haredim and the state, etc. It is about the nations getting ride of their klippot and accepting the Noahide laws that G-d has intended for them.
 ( It's also a simple video I came across and wanted to share).

Although I agree with you, I have to say the CF is correct that if the Haredim became the majority of the country tommorow, we would not have acheived all that much. The buses would not run on Shabbath and the Pork stores would be outlawed. Big deal.

The Haredim are very zealous about fulfilling 200 or so commandments. It is the other 413 that they couldn't care less about.

The vast majority of the commandments are national in scope and can only be implemented by a government. The Haredim oppose a Jewish government and therefore oppose atleast 400 of the commandments of the Torah.

Their attitude is, "if our forefathers didn't do this commandment in Poland, Russia, Hungary, Morrocco, Iraq, etc. etc. etc. then it really must not be that important."

They therefore nullify the majority of the commandments and in fact the underpinning of the entire Torah. Exodus 19:6 "ו  וְאַתֶּם תִּהְיוּ-לִי מַמְלֶכֶת כֹּהֲנִים, וְגוֹי קָדוֹשׁ, and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation."

This is underpinning of the entire Torah, that the Jewish people live as a nation with their own government(kingdom) and apply the laws of the Torah on a national scale(holy nation).

This idea is so scarce in the Haredi world that when Rav Bar Hayim quoted this Pasuq(verse) to a Haredi, he said "I've never heard anyone say such a thing in my whole life, Where did you get that from?"

That is a total breakdown in the correct understanding of the Torah. A TOTAL BREAKDOWN.

That is why, Tzvi Ben Roshel, I opposed your promotion of Rabbi Mizrahi and torahanytime.org

Because I knew that he was only teaching 200 commandments instead of 613.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Zelhar on December 18, 2008, 03:13:55 PM
<snip>
Anyway the topic is not about Haredim and the state, etc. It is about the nations getting ride of their klippot and accepting the Noahide laws that G-d has intended for them.
 ( It's also a simple video I came across and wanted to share).
Tzvi, this is not the place for such activity.

Tzvi wasn't targetting against any particular religion. I don't think it is bad or offensive on a jewish forum to talk of the 7 laws
Tzvi is referring to all other religion as 'klippot' that should be shed. But this attitude is counter productive to this movement.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 03:17:14 PM
Zelhar,

As someone here in another thread posted it is common for Orthodox strains of Judaism to take up what appears to be an 'anti-zionist' stance. What this really is is opposition to a 'Secular State of Israel'. All strains of Judaism, especially Chassidic strains, are ZIONIST in the sense that they envision the future with Jews in Israel, run as a Torah state. This is what our Prophets foresaw, <snip>

what you said there is confused.

But who is the someone that you refer to?

It is clear what I said here... What is it that confuses you? According to your own statements you have said the same as I have. Religious zionists are not supportive of the secular Israel state because of their understanding of Torah. I also stated that it is a basic tenet of the Jewish faith to believe in Moshiach, and thusly believe in the ingathering of exiles which our prophets describe.

Is there any more need for clarification?

Also, the message I refered to was posted by JewishAmericanPatriot on Dec 16 @ 5:39PM

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,29505.msg306732.html#msg306732
Quote
<snip>
One thing many of you youngsters might not know: for many centuries, ALL of frum Yidden were "anti-zionist". My zayde, of blessed memory, used to have many arguments with my father (also of blessed memory) over this issue. My zayde felt, as most religious Jews of his day felt, that we must wait for Moshiach to return the Jewish people to Eretz Yisroel. There is nothing wrong with holding this view.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 03:17:37 PM
That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.
Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?

I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.

I would not characterize machonshilo that way.

I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.

Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.

It's like when people use the term Religious Nationalist. It gives the impression that one is fusing two different ideas, religion and nationalism. I don't want to fuse anything. I see no need to fuse. I read the Torah and I don't see two different ideas. Just one tree of life growing in the land of the living.

I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 03:21:04 PM
Zelhar,

As someone here in another thread posted it is common for Orthodox strains of Judaism to take up what appears to be an 'anti-zionist' stance. What this really is is opposition to a 'Secular State of Israel'. All strains of Judaism, especially Chassidic strains, are ZIONIST in the sense that they envision the future with Jews in Israel, run as a Torah state. This is what our Prophets foresaw, <snip>

what you said there is confused.

But who is the someone that you refer to?

It is clear what I said here... What is it that confuses you? According to your own statements you have said the same as I have. Religious zionists are not supportive of the secular Israel state because of their understanding of Torah. I also stated that it is a basic tenet of the Jewish faith to believe in Moshiach, and thusly believe in the ingathering of exiles which our prophets describe.

Is there any more need for clarification?

Also, the message I refered to was posted by JewishAmericanPatriot on Dec 16 @ 5:39PM

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,29505.msg306732.html#msg306732
Quote
<snip>
One thing many of you youngsters might not know: for many centuries, ALL of frum Yidden were "anti-zionist". My zayde, of blessed memory, used to have many arguments with my father (also of blessed memory) over this issue. My zayde felt, as most religious Jews of his day felt, that we must wait for Moshiach to return the Jewish people to Eretz Yisroel. There is nothing wrong with holding this view.


The only thing wrong with holding this view is that it leads directly to Auschwitz. Those leaders who hold this view lead their flocks from one disaster directly into another.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 03:23:07 PM
That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.
Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?

I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.

I would not characterize machonshilo that way.

I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.

Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.

I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.

And my experience with both Chabad and Breslov is that they want to bring ALL of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. That is what Torah commands and that is what their rebbes are teaching.

I am very supportive of TorahAnyTime.com and have contributed twice in the last year. Many of the rebbes which they support are religious zionists and believe every word of Torahs teachings concerning settling the land of Israel. What they don't support is the secular state which currently exists and which almost everyone here admits is crooked and evil.

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 03:30:36 PM
That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.
Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?

I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.

I would not characterize machonshilo that way.

I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.

Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.

I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.

And my experience with both Chabad and Breslov is that they want to bring ALL of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. That is what Torah commands and that is what their rebbes are teaching.

I am very supportive of TorahAnyTime.com and have contributed twice in the last year. Many of the rebbes which they support are religious zionists and believe every word of Torahs teachings concerning settling the land of Israel. What they don't support is the secular state which currently exists and which almost everyone here admits is crooked and evil.



Chabad does not support All of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. The Rebbe did not support such an idea and said so openly. He was not for mass aliyah.

As far as Torahanytime.com, my point is that their worldview is only large enough to accomodate 200 or so of the commandments, not 613.

Their lack of clarity on the national underpinning of the Torah is what blinds them and causes them to reject 413 or so commandments.

They need to expand their view of Judaism or atleast advertise what they really offer:       OneThirdOfTheTorahAnyTime.com
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 03:42:40 PM
That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.
Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?

I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.

I would not characterize machonshilo that way.

I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.

Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.

I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.

And my experience with both Chabad and Breslov is that they want to bring ALL of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. That is what Torah commands and that is what their rebbes are teaching.

I am very supportive of TorahAnyTime.com and have contributed twice in the last year. Many of the rebbes which they support are religious zionists and believe every word of Torahs teachings concerning settling the land of Israel. What they don't support is the secular state which currently exists and which almost everyone here admits is crooked and evil.



Chabad does not support All of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. The Rebbe did not support such an idea and said so openly. He was not for mass aliyah.

As far as Torahanytime.com, my point is that their woldview is only large enough to accomodate 200 or so of the commandments, not 613.

Their lack of clarity on the national underpinning of the Torah is what blinds them and causes them to reject 413 or so commandments.

They need to expand their view of Judaism or atleast advertise what they really offer:       OneThirdOfTheTorahAnyTime.com

Well personally I know my Chabad rabbi has gone to Israel several times and my Modern Orthodox Rabbi has family which lives in Israel. I share a bit of disappointment in Chabad for not being more concerned with making Aliyah but I will find you some articles from Chabad site which support the establishment of a Jewish state.

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/livingtorah_cdo/aid/56657/jewish/Aliyah-to-Israel.htm
http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/524928/jewish/Were-Home.htm

I believe all the Rabbis I have listened to at TorahAnyTime would agree that all 613 mitzvahs will be fufilled when Moshiach comes. The question is whether or not it is time now. Some understandings have it that the Jews in Diaspora have a mission to bring the light of Hashem to the world which is also a prerequisite for the coming of Moshiach. As a matter of fact I heard Rabbi Lazer Brody say it in the shuir I listened to last night. He says that in the age of Moshiach all of mankind will know the glory of Hashem. It is the Jews mission to bring Hashem to the world, as this was the reason Hashem loved Abraham. Abraham brought Hashem to the pagan world and was rewarded with being the father of the Jewish nation.

http://www.breslev.co.il/FilesUpload/Media/Video/English/1.asx
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 18, 2008, 03:47:23 PM
That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.
Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?

I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.

I would not characterize machonshilo that way.

I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.

Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.

I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.

And my experience with both Chabad and Breslov is that they want to bring ALL of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. That is what Torah commands and that is what their rebbes are teaching.

I am very supportive of TorahAnyTime.com and have contributed twice in the last year. Many of the rebbes which they support are religious zionists and believe every word of Torahs teachings concerning settling the land of Israel. What they don't support is the secular state which currently exists and which almost everyone here admits is crooked and evil.



Chabad does not support All of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. The Rebbe did not support such an idea and said so openly. He was not for mass aliyah.

As far as Torahanytime.com, my point is that their woldview is only large enough to accomodate 200 or so of the commandments, not 613.

Their lack of clarity on the national underpinning of the Torah is what blinds them and causes them to reject 413 or so commandments.

They need to expand their view of Judaism or atleast advertise what they really offer:       OneThirdOfTheTorahAnyTime.com

 You do not know what you are talking about, but only talking non-sense. Do you know all the Rabbis on it? Do you not know the damage you would be making (both on Jews by making them discouraged) and to some gentile pupets here who will only repeat the negativity they hear here and start attaching curses to our fellow Jews and Jewish organizations just because they heard 1 Jew say something negative.
  Do you want to be hahav for lashon hara (actually worse) to every single Rabbi who is on it and expecially for those who have spoken agains't giving away land, moving to Israel etc. ?
  
  

     Not everyone is a zionist. Zionist has many meanings and angles by the way you look and define it. If I was a Rav 50,100 or 200 years ago, I probably would say the same thing- I would be agains't the secular zionists, and tell my community not to join them. Do you know what happened to the majority who joined them? - they eventually became them. I would of-course preach the love of the land of Israel, love of the People of Israel and the real way of loving them- making them get closer to the Torah, but I probably would tell my followers to keep a distance from the eruv rav, becuase they are tricky in the way they took Jewish souls away from Torah. (coming as the Moshiah -saying salvation already came).
  Anyway everyone wants the best thing- we all agree that the goal is a Holy nation in the land of Israel, keeping the Torah, etc.
 BUT the problem and the mahlokit is how do we get there?

- by the way if their are replys and I dont get back right away, it is becuase I am very bissy (finals are a killer).- Give me some time.
 
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 03:47:41 PM
http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/judaism/hashkafa/who_controls_israels_destiny.aspx?id=10843&language=english
Who Controls Israels Destiny - by the Lubavitcher Rebbe

Editor’s note: The words of a true tzaddik said years ago are amazingly live and true today. The following are translated excerpts from the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s discourses from 1982, that implores the leaders of the Israeli government not to bow to international pressures, for Hashm runs the world...


At a Chassidic gathering held on Shabbos Bereishis, the Lubavitcher Rebbe focused his attention on the teaching with which Rashi begins his commentary to the Torah. The Rebbe explained that like all of Torah, this teaching should not be regarded merely as an abstract principle, but rather as a construct practically applicable throughout our nation’s history.
 
The same principles, the Rebbe explained, are relevant in the present age and should be employed within today’s contemporary political arena. Presenting the Torah’s ideas straightforwardly and without apology is the means to influence public opinion at present.
 
In this vein, we are publishing an adaptation of the Rebbe’s words with the hope that their study and their application will bring peace, security, and prosperity to the Jewish people. (Sichos In English 29 Tishrei, 5752)
  
Rashi’s1 First Teaching
 
Sequence is of crucial importance in the study of the Torah2 Giving one subject precedence over others endows it with prominence. In this vein, it is significant to note how Rashi, the commentator who seeks to reveal "the simple meaning of the Torah’s words,’’ 3begins his commentary on the Torah. Rhetorically, he asks4 why the Torah does not begin with the description of the mitzvos which the Jews were commanded to fulfill and explains that it was necessary to recount the narrative of creation and the early phases of the formation of the Jewish nation so that:
 
If the nations of the world tell the Jews; "You are robbers, for you have taken forceful possession of the lands of the... nations,’’ the [Jews] will reply, "The entire world belongs to G-d. He created it and He gave it to whom He saw fit.’’
 
Rashi associates this teaching with the verse5 "The power of His works He declared to His people,’’ emphasizing that it is not the shifting socio-economic forces in the world at large that mold the fate of our people, but rather "the power of His works.’’
 
Relying on the Rock of Israel
 
This lesson has been expressed throughout the course of our nation’s history. Even in times of persecution and oppression, when outwardly, their fate appeared to depend on the decisions of gentile powers, the Jews knew that G-d was the source of their deliverance.
 
This approach does not imply that we should rely on faith alone. On the contrary, the Torah obligates us to employ all the natural means at our disposal and not to rely on miracles.6 Nevertheless, the natural means which we employ cannot alone promise success, for success depends on G-d. Needless to say, an approach which reflects a lack of faith in G-d will not have positive consequences.
 
Our Destiny is in G-d’s Hands
 
This lesson is particularly relevant at the present time. The Jews must realize that their security and well-being is a matter between them and G-d alone. Even when we are in a situation where we require the generosity and favor of non-Jewish powers, they do not control the fate of our people. Our people’s destiny is dependent on "the power of His works.’’
 
This is the message which the Jewish people must communicate to the nations of the world -- that G-d has given us Eretz Yisrael and that He determines our security and well-being.
 
Relaying this message will influence world opinion, for the Torah is accepted by all nations. When the Torah’s message is communicated to them straightforwardly, without apology, they will listen.
 
"Wonders in All Things’’
 
The above is particularly relevant in the present year, 5752, for the letters of its Hebrew equivalent serve as an acronym for the Hebrew words meaning, "This will be a year of wonders in all things.’’ The previous year was described as "a year when `I will show you wonders,’ ’’7 and we saw wonders manifest throughout the world. This year the wonders will be greater and more encompassing, bringing success and prosperity for Jews in all places and particularly in Eretz Yisrael. May these wonders also include the ultimate wonder -- the coming of the Redemption and may this take place in the immediate future.
  
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Ulli on December 18, 2008, 03:58:57 PM
Basically, they are now a part of the Jewish religion.

It is imo nothing wrong with this.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 03:59:37 PM

I believe all the Rabbis I have listened to at TorahAnyTime would agree that all 613 mitzvahs will be fufilled when Moshiach comes. The question is whether or not it is time now. Some understandings have it that the Jews in Diaspora have a mission to bring the light of Hashem to the world which is also a prerequisite for the coming of Moshiach.


That is the basic problem. They think that we are commanded to do G-d's commandments when a certain person named Moshiach walks in the door. That is a perverted view. Maimonides says repeatedly in all of his works that every single commandment in incumbent upon us to do whenever we have the ability to do so.

To sit around with the ability to fulfill most of the torah and say "We cannot fulfill 413 of the commandments unless the Moshiach comes." is a strange and perverse view.

It is not Judaism. I repeat, it is not Judaism.

It is a perversion of Judaism that crept into our minds when we were powerless in the Exile. This idea throws a monkey wrench into the works of the entire Torah.

Mitzvot are incumbent upon us the moment we can fulfill them and NO LATER.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 04:08:28 PM

I believe all the Rabbis I have listened to at TorahAnyTime would agree that all 613 mitzvahs will be fufilled when Moshiach comes. The question is whether or not it is time now. Some understandings have it that the Jews in Diaspora have a mission to bring the light of Hashem to the world which is also a prerequisite for the coming of Moshiach.


That is the basic problem. They think that we are commanded to do G-d's commandments when a certain person named Moshiach walks in the door. That is a perverted view. Maimonides says repeatedly in all of his works that every single commandment in incumbent upon us to do whenever we have the ability to do so.

To sit around with the ability to fulfill most of the torah and say "We cannot fulfill 413 of the commandments unless the Moshiach comes." is a strange and perverse view.

It is not Judaism. I repeat, it is not Judaism.

It is a perversion of Judaism that crept into our minds when we were powerless in the Exile. This idea throws a monkey wrench into the works of the entire Torah.

Mitzvot are incumbent upon us the moment we can fulfill them and NO LATER.

But there are legitamite reasons people are in their situations. As much as I would love to make Aliyah I have family who would not... I think I will wait till my parents pass then I will be free to move without concern for their safety and livelihood.

I think it is not possible for every Jew to pick up and move to Israel right now. I understand the desire to move but I also am lenient when it comes to people whos circumstances are not ripe for the move.

I think it is harsh to cut off all Jews who are waiting for Moshiach to come.

PS: Did not the Jews in Mitzrayim have to wait for Moshe to come? Didn't some others try to leave Egypt and they died in the desert? Did they not have to fall to the 49th level of impurity before Hashem sent Moshe?

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 04:12:51 PM

 You do not know what you are talking about, but only talking non-sense. Do you know all the Rabbis on it? Do you not know the damage you would be making (both on Jews by making them discouraged) and to some gentile pupets here who will only repeat the negativity they hear here and start attaching curses to our fellow Jews and Jewish organizations just because they heard 1 Jew say something negative.
  Do you want to be hahav for lashon hara (actually worse) to every single Rabbi who is on it and expecially for those who have spoken agains't giving away land, moving to Israel etc. ?
  
  

     Not everyone is a zionist. Zionist has many meanings and angles by the way you look and define it. If I was a Rav 50,100 or 200 years ago, I probably would say the same thing- I would be agains't the secular zionists, and tell my community not to join them. Do you know what happened to the majority who joined them? - they eventually became them. I would of-course preach the love of the land of Israel, love of the People of Israel and the real way of loving them- making them get closer to the Torah, but I probably would tell my followers to keep a distance from the eruv rav, becuase they are tricky in the way they took Jewish souls away from Torah. (coming as the Moshiah -saying salvation already came).
  Anyway everyone wants the best thing- we all agree that the goal is a Holy nation in the land of Israel, keeping the Torah, etc.
 BUT the problem and the mahlokit is how do we get there?

- by the way if their are replys and I dont get back right away, it is becuase I am very bissy (finals are a killer).- Give me some time.
 

Is there a single Rabbi on that site supports building the Temple or do they think it fall out of heaven with the Moshiach riding on top of it?

As far as my non-sense, I think I was being quite rational actually and you completely missed my point about their One Third Of The Torah ideology.

As far as the Rabbis in Europe who told their flocks not to join the Zionists and move to Israel, you have danced away from the fact that their followers were mostly slaughtered as a result of their terrible advice. Can you not admit that telling your flock to stay in Europe was atleast incorrect?

And no, the Haredi world does not beleive in the Jewish people living as a Holy Nation in Eretz Yisrael.

Their goal is the simple perpetuation of Galuth Judaism. The perpetuation of the Jewish relgious culture of Poland, Hungary, Russia, Iraq, Morrocco. etc. etc.

Their goal is not their creation of a unified Holy Nation living in Eretz Yisrael nor in establish a kingdom of priests since they oppose Jewish soveignty of any kind. They love the Galuth so much, that they want us to live in it culturally forever.

Oh, unless the Moshiach walks in the door and then everything will magically change.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 04:22:37 PM
Judeanoncapta,

I think you are not being fair to the Rabbis nor to their ideology.

I have heard and seen first hand that Chabad and Breslov both support moving Jews to Israel. Breslov has been in Israel for many years and they are actively working on gathering the Jews into Israel.

Do the Rabbis come out and say to build the Temple? Not exactly. But there is a reason for this. Do you think that all we need to do is build a building called the "Beit Hamikdash" and suddenly the Schechina will occupy it? I am one who thinks that more than a building needs to be constructed. I believe that the world really needs to see the hand of Hashem {like during the Exodus from Mitzrayim} and must have absolute Emmunah {Faith} before the Schechina will dwell in the Temple. If the thread wants to discuss this idea I can find Rabbis who will explain this concept.

I believe that we are falling to the low levels we did while in Mitzrayim and a redemption similar to Hashems miraculous extraction of the Jews from the nation of Mitzrayim is at hand.


Quote
http://www.dvar.org.il/drbank/Tetsave.htm
Exploring this, in conclusion, the Haftora brings forward an amazing idea, that the Bnei Yisrael are actually the Beis Hamikdash (adapted from Mayanei HaTorah). Inform Bnei Yisrael of the house – the Bayis Hadash. Let them be ashamed of their sins, according to Yechezkel (43, 10). This is commenting on the use of the word ‘es’ in ‘Haged es Beis Yisrael es habayis’.  He should rather have said ‘el’ Beis Yisrael. This implies that Beis Yisrael are themselves the Beis Hamikdash.  It is in them that the schechina rests. The posuk says, Shachanti besocham – make for me a dwelling and I will dwell in the midst of Bnei Yisrael – in the heart of each of Bnei Yisrael. They will reach a level where they are worthy of my blessing in their midst. Then there is no doubt that they will be ashamed of their previous sins to the extent that the schechina will truly once again be able to return to their hearts.
.
.
.
That was on Shmini Atzeret, the day of judgement for the children of Israel. So we see the tremendous irony of World History. Through the Teshuva of Am Yisrael, the Beis Hamikdash will return. The bigdei Kehuna are an invitation to am Yisrael to come home to Torah, Eretz Yisrael and Olam Haba Be’Olam Hazeh. The design of the third Beis Hamikdash will conclude with the coming of Moshiach, the Teshuva for the sins that we performed during the thousands of years in Galus. They failed to take notice to the Navi’s word. The final Beis Hamikdash turned out not to be the second but the Third which was predicted even in the times of Yitzhak Avinu, with the three be’er Mayim Hayim – the 3 wells of Living Waters.  The weels that he dug. The first one was called Sone, the second Esek – that they involved themselves in his business, parallel to the first Beis HaMIkdash being destroyed and the second Beis Hamikdash, and the third one was called Rehovot – which means vast expanses, in other words, the whole word will be beshlemus in the celebration of the Third Beis Hamikdash. The Maayan shel Torah explains, that this posuk comes to say that even though they did not manage to build the Beis Hamikdash in the manner he described to them, things to them, things would only change if they would change.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 04:26:15 PM

I believe all the Rabbis I have listened to at TorahAnyTime would agree that all 613 mitzvahs will be fufilled when Moshiach comes. The question is whether or not it is time now. Some understandings have it that the Jews in Diaspora have a mission to bring the light of Hashem to the world which is also a prerequisite for the coming of Moshiach.


That is the basic problem. They think that we are commanded to do G-d's commandments when a certain person named Moshiach walks in the door. That is a perverted view. Maimonides says repeatedly in all of his works that every single commandment in incumbent upon us to do whenever we have the ability to do so.

To sit around with the ability to fulfill most of the torah and say "We cannot fulfill 413 of the commandments unless the Moshiach comes." is a strange and perverse view.

It is not Judaism. I repeat, it is not Judaism.

It is a perversion of Judaism that crept into our minds when we were powerless in the Exile. This idea throws a monkey wrench into the works of the entire Torah.

Mitzvot are incumbent upon us the moment we can fulfill them and NO LATER.

But there are legitamite reasons people are in their situations. As much as I would love to make Aliyah I have family who would not... I think I will wait till my parents pass then I will be free to move without concern for their safety and livelihood.

I think it is not possible for every Jew to pick up and move to Israel right now. I understand the desire to move but I also am lenient when it comes to people whos circumstances are not ripe for the move.

I think it is harsh to cut off all Jews who are waiting for Moshiach to come.

PS: Did not the Jews in Mitzrayim have to wait for Moshe to come? Didn't some others try to leave Egypt and they died in the desert? Did they not have to fall to the 49th level of impurity before Hashem sent Moshe?



I fully understand that every Jew cannot make aliyah in three seconds and that you cannot leave Galuth physically right now.

So leave the Galuth culturally, ideologically and spiritually. The only way is Torath Eretz Yisrael.

As far as Jews in Missrayim have to wait for Moshe to come, they were slaves held in bondage. Not professionals dwelling in Suburbia.

How could anyone even begin to compare the two?

As far as the Targum Yonathan mentioning the Bnei Efrayim who left early and were slaughtered by the Philistines. That is clearly an aggadic statement meant to calm down the rowdy Jews after the Bar Kokhba revolt. There isn't the slightest mention of this in the Torah itself and it is clearly a Midrash meant to influence behavior of the Jewish partisans who were spoiling for another fight with Rome. It is aggada and possibly not an historical event.

And no, they didn't have to fall to the 49th level of impurity for Hashem to send Moshe. It just says that if they had fallen to the 50th level, they wouldn't have been redeemed and moshe would not have been sent.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: George on December 18, 2008, 04:33:11 PM
Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?

Most of these religious Jews are Zionists. This guy is a troll and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 04:36:17 PM
Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?

Most of these religious Jews are Zionists. This guy is a troll and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Do you even know what you are talking about? Have you read this thread?
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 04:41:50 PM
Tzvi is referring to all other religion as 'klippot' that should be shed. But this attitude is counter productive to this movement.
Isn't Christianity pretty much Noahidism by default?
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 04:42:55 PM
Tzvi is referring to all other religion as 'klippot' that should be shed. But this attitude is counter productive to this movement.
Isn't Christianity pretty much Noahidism by default?

Not exactly...

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/466119/jewish/The-Seven-Noahide-Laws.htm
http://www.moshiach.com/action/morality/introduction.php
http://www.noahidenations.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=225&Itemid=57
http://www.noahidenations.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=344

There are some beliefs of Christianity which don't quite fit into Jewish belief...

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 04:43:59 PM
Judeanoncapta,

I think you are not being fair to the Rabbis nor to their ideology.

I have heard and seen first hand that Chabad and Breslov both support moving Jews to Israel. Breslov has been in Israel for many years and they are actively working on gathering the Jews into Israel.

I actually mentioned that about Breslov. But what I said about Chabad's position comes straight from the Rebbe's lips. Ask any Chabadnik "Did they Rebbe support Jewish people moving en masse to Eretz Yisrael?"

The answer is no.

Judeanoncapta,Do the Rabbis come out and say to build the Temple? Not exactly. But there is a reason for this. Do you think that all we need to do is build a building called the "Beit Hamikdash" and suddenly the Schechina will occupy it?

That is precisely what Exodus 25:8 says וְעָשׂוּ לִי, מִקְדָּשׁ; וְשָׁכַנְתִּי, בְּתוֹכָם. They shall build me a sanctuary and I will dwell amongst them.

I am one who thinks that more than a building needs to be constructed. I believe that the world really needs to see the hand of Hashem {like during the Exodus from Mitzrayim} and must have absolute Emmunah {Faith} before the Schechina will dwell in the Temple.

The world saw the hand of Hashem during the Exodus and they didn't change all that much. To put the Torah on hold until not only the Jews are perfect but the ENTIRE WORLD is perfect. This idea is simply too much to take.


Judeanoncapta,I believe that we are falling to the low levels we did while in Mitzrayim and a redemption similar to Hashems miraculous extraction of the Jews from the nation of Mitzrayim is at hand.


That's why you need to study Torath Eretz Yisrael, so you will drop ideas like this.

The Talmudh Yerushalmi, which was written in Eretz Yisrael, compares the Future Redemption to the story of Purim, not the Exodus.

That's right, Purim. The one redemption where nothing supernatural happened at all.

The Exile Today is one of the mind and you don't need a miracle. You can free yourself.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 04:44:49 PM
You do not know what you are talking about, but only talking non-sense.
Yes Tzvi, everybody except you, your Agudah Charedim friends, and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who you worship, talk "nonsense". Mm-hmm.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 04:46:07 PM
Most of these religious Jews are Zionists. This guy is a troll and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Nice to see you're having a good morning too, Ralph. Isn't it about time to make a thread about black peoples' jaws?
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 04:47:49 PM
Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?

Most of these religious Jews are Zionists. This guy is a troll and shouldn't be taken seriously.

No, they're not.

And C.F. in no troll.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 04:48:18 PM
There are some beliefs of Christianity which don't quite fit into Jewish belief...
I thought Gentiles are not required to have full "Jewish belief".
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 04:49:26 PM
And C.F. in no troll.
Nevermind him JNC. This is Ralph, who makes endless racial posts and who last night actually made a thread saying that the JTF forum has peaked and is now on a decline.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 04:57:39 PM
What I said about Chabad's position comes straight from the Rebbe's lips. Ask any Chabadnik "Did they Rebbe support Jewish people moving en masse to Eretz Yisrael?"
Judeanoncapta, I think you are probably right here (I don't know all of the particulars of Chabadism by any means), but in practice this is a technicality. The vast majority of Lubavitchim are very faithful and devout Zionists who love their brothers and sisters wherever they are, and all over the world. During the 2006 "war" with Hezbollah, who were the only rabbis joining the soldiers (regardless of what denomination of Judaism they were, or even if they were totally secular) on the battlefield while antitank missiles were falling all around them? The Lubavitch. Who are the Jews who dedicate their lives to outreach all over the world to minister to fellow Jews in all circumstances? What Jews just gave their lives in Mumbai serving the confused, lost, desperate young secular Israeli "pilgrims" who go there to dabble in Eastern thought and "find themselves"? Chabad. I guarantee you that they did not lead a comfortable life and would have done a lot better, and probably still be alive, if they were to take a position in the United States or Israel.

I think that the heart, and the life that is lived out (what Christians refer to as "the fruits of the Spirit") matter more than doctrine. Regardless of what the exact fine points are of what the Chabad technically believe about Zionism, they are amazing Jews and a true testimony to the awesome work of Hashem.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 04:57:59 PM
There are some beliefs of Christianity which don't quite fit into Jewish belief...
I thought Gentiles are not required to have full "Jewish belief".

Gentiles are not required to have a pure monotheism ie. total beleif in one indivisible omniscient creator with no other powers with him.

But then again they cannot commit idolatry and the line between the two is very fine indeed.

That is why some authorities say that Christianity is idolatry for Noahides and some say it is not.

I don't know what the truth is, because every Christian I meet seems to beleive something different. And to be honest, I have no idea to whom he is praying when he bows his head.

I don't mean to offend you, but this is what seems to me to be the reality.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 05:01:18 PM
What I said about Chabad's position comes straight from the Rebbe's lips. Ask any Chabadnik "Did they Rebbe support Jewish people moving en masse to Eretz Yisrael?"
Judeanoncapta, I think you are probably right here (I don't know all of the particulars of Chabadism by any means), but in practice this is a technicality. The vast majority of Lubavitchim are very faithful and devout Zionists who love their brothers and sisters wherever they are, and all over the world. During the 2006 "war" with Hezbollah, who were the only rabbis joining the soldiers (regardless of what denomination of Judaism they were, or even if they were totally secular) on the battlefield while antitank missiles were falling all around them? The Lubavitch. Who are the Jews who dedicate their lives to outreach all over the world to minister to fellow Jews in all circumstances? What Jews just gave their lives in Mumbai serving the confused, lost, desperate young secular Israeli "pilgrims" who go there to dabble in Eastern thought and "find themselves"? Chabad. I guarantee you that they did not lead a comfortable life and would have done a lot better, and probably still be alive, if they were to take a position in the United States or Israel.

I think that the heart, and the life that is lived out (what Christians refer to as "the fruits of the Spirit") matter more than doctrine. Regardless of what the exact fine points are of what the Chabad technically believe about Zionism, they are amazing Jews and a true testimony to the awesome work of Hashem.

I agree with alot of what you say. I am not attacking attacking their actions. Or their doctrine,(atleast not in this thread).

I was just trying to clarify what their position is. And not allow their position to change in a way that would be untruthful.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 05:01:29 PM
Gentiles are not required to have a pure monotheism ie. total beleif in one indivisible omniscient creator with no other powers with him.

But then again they cannot commit idolatry and the line between the two is very fine indeed.

That is why some authorities say that Christianity is idolatry for Noahides and some say it is not.

I don't know what the truth is, because every Christian I meet seems to beleive something different. And to be honest, I have no idea to whom he is praying when he bows his head.

I don't mean to offend you, but this is what seems to me to be the reality.
No, nothing that you have said is offensive. I agree that the diversity of beliefs within Christendom is mind-boggling. I know that the subject of the Trinity is very hairy, sensitive, and difficult. So, I'll just accept the answer that it might be default Noahidism and it might not.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 05:01:55 PM
You do not know what you are talking about, but only talking non-sense.
Yes Tzvi, everybody except you, your Agudah Charedim friends, and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who you worship, talk "nonsense". Mm-hmm.

C.F,

This is uncalled for... I generally respect everyones opinion here.. And I am also supporting Tzvis argument... The truth is that following Torah is not a simple proposition. We need to be sensitive to our fellow Jews feelings {Ahavas Yisroel} and yet we need to firmly rebuke those who wish to follow but have missed the mark {Chet}.

There is nothing gained by exhibiting so much anger in insulting another person. I will stand up and defend just about everyone in this forum because I believe we all share a common goal. The Torah holds in high regard the middot of Bitul {self nullification} and Tzniut {Modesty}. Read the story of Yaakov and Essau and notice that as Great as Yaakov was he still bowed to Essau because he knew that this world was not for him but the next world is.
  
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Zelhar on December 18, 2008, 05:02:07 PM
There are some beliefs of Christianity which don't quite fit into Jewish belief...
I thought Gentiles are not required to have full "Jewish belief".
C.F it might be hard to answer your question without delving into inter-religious theological debate (or equally likely- an argument). 
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 05:06:42 PM
I agree with alot of what you say. I am not attacking attacking their actions. Or their doctrine,(atleast not in this thread).

I was just trying to clarify what their position is. And not allow their position to change in a way that would be untruthful.
I know, I know. You aren't against them, you just think that their technical position on Zionism is inaccurate. Since I have no reason to doubt you, it appears that it is. I just think that in practice, they are almost always up there among our greatest allies and friends, and we all should acknowledge that. I understand how you feel. I don't fully agree with much of charismatic or Pentecostal Christianity (I think the theology tends to be a bit weak and too based on feelings and personal experience), but in practice they are often the most loving, devout, and passionate-living Bible-believing Christians out there. I might like Baptist/Calvinist theological work and study more, but by and large the charismatic Christians lead better lives. (And they tend to be very supportive of the Jews too.)
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 05:08:50 PM
C.F,

This is uncalled for... I generally respect everyones opinion here.. And I am also supporting Tzvis argument... The truth is that following Torah is not a simple proposition. We need to be sensitive to our fellow Jews feelings {Ahavas Yisroel} and yet we need to firmly rebuke those who wish to follow but have missed the mark {Chet}.

There is nothing gained by exhibiting so much anger in insulting another person. I will stand up and defend just about everyone in this forum because I believe we all share a common goal. The Torah holds in high regard the middot of Bitul {self nullification} and Tzniut {Modesty}. Read the story of Yaakov and Essau and notice that as Great as Yaakov was he still bowed to Essau because he knew that this world was not for him but the next world is.
Muman, that was you and Judeanoncapta that he was insulting when I responded to that. He said that what the two of you were saying was "non-sense".
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 05:09:07 PM
There are some beliefs of Christianity which don't quite fit into Jewish belief...
I thought Gentiles are not required to have full "Jewish belief".
C.F it might be hard to answer your question without delving into inter-religious theological debate (or equally likely- an argument). 

That seems to have been averted because C.F. is basically a moderate.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 05:09:58 PM
C.F it might be hard to answer your question without delving into inter-religious theological debate (or equally likely- an argument). 
It is fine. Judeanoncapta already addressed it well. I consider this subject dropped.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 05:11:06 PM
That seems to have been averted because C.F. is basically a moderate.
What do you mean by I am a "moderate"? You gave a perfectly fine answer, and that was that.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Ulli on December 18, 2008, 05:12:15 PM
Tzvi is referring to all other religion as 'klippot' that should be shed. But this attitude is counter productive to this movement.
Isn't Christianity pretty much Noahidism by default?

It is in the purest form very near to Nohidism, but there is one major point, that is dividing the Jewish theological system from the Christian.

Jews didn't believe, that god became human, suffered under the hand of Pontius Pilatus for the sins of the people who believe in him and that he defeated death on the third day with the promise that his fellows will do this exactly like him.

It is against the Jewish dogma of the indivisibleness and divine dignity of god.

There is no possibility to bridge the deep abyss between this two religions without violating the one or the other.

We all have to accept it C.F.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 05:12:28 PM
C.F,

This is uncalled for... I generally respect everyones opinion here.. And I am also supporting Tzvis argument... The truth is that following Torah is not a simple proposition. We need to be sensitive to our fellow Jews feelings {Ahavas Yisroel} and yet we need to firmly rebuke those who wish to follow but have missed the mark {Chet}.

There is nothing gained by exhibiting so much anger in insulting another person. I will stand up and defend just about everyone in this forum because I believe we all share a common goal. The Torah holds in high regard the middot of Bitul {self nullification} and Tzniut {Modesty}. Read the story of Yaakov and Essau and notice that as Great as Yaakov was he still bowed to Essau because he knew that this world was not for him but the next world is.
Muman, that was you and Judeanoncapta that he was insulting when I responded to that. He said that what the two of you were saying was "non-sense".

I'm pretty sure he was addressing my comments only actually.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 05:15:54 PM
It is in the purest form very near to Nohidism, but there is one major point, that is dividing the Jewish theological system from the Christian.

Jews didn't believe, that G-d became human, suffered under the hand of Pontius Pilatus for the sins of the people who believe in him and that he defeated death on the third day with the promise that his fellows will do this exactly like him.

It is against the Jewish dogma of the indivisibleness and divine dignity of G-d.

There is no possibility to bridge the deep abyss between this two religions without violating the one or the other.

We all have to accept it C.F.
I didn't mean to cause a Jewish-Christian conflict, and apologize if my post did that. I guess I should have said "isn't Christianity in some ways Noahidism by default".
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 05:17:29 PM
That seems to have been averted because C.F. is basically a moderate.
What do you mean by I am a "moderate"? You gave a perfectly fine answer, and that was that.

I actually meant that in a good way. Kind of a play on what Rabbi Kahane said when he quoted from the book of Joshua about all of the wiping out of the Canaanites, and said "I just want to expel the Arabs, because I'm basically a moderate."

I know when you hear the word moderate, weasels like McCain and Arlen Spector and other assorted rifraff usually are what comes to mind.

But I actually meant it in a good way. A term of endearment, actually.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 05:24:09 PM
I actually meant that in a good way. Kind of a play on what Rabbi Kahane said when he quoted from the book of Joshua about all of the wiping out of the Canaanites, and said "I just want to expel the Arabs, because I'm basically a moderate."

I know when you hear the word moderate, weasels like McCain and Arlen Spector and other assorted rifraff usually are what comes to mind.

But I actually meant it in a good way. A term of endearment, actually.
OK, well thank you, then.  :) I knew you meant it in a good way, I just didn't actually understand your context.

But you have a good point. We ARE all moderates using HaRav Meir Kahane (zt"l)'s definition. G-d commanded Israel to completely wipe out the Canaanite/Amalekite/Midianite/Jebusite proto-Muslim Nazis. We only want to remove their descendants, the Arab Nazis, from Israel. The fact is that G-d would be commanding a shoah against the Muslim Nazi Amalekites today if He were directly speaking to Israel today. But, we do not believe in or advocate that.

But while on this subject, why do you think, since you live in Israel and have been exposed to many sick, secular leftists, that so many average Israelis believe Arabs have "civil rights" and have a legitimate "historical claim" to a Fakestine state? According to opinion polls even done by the Left, the vast majority of Israelis do know the Arabs want to kill them all--and yet they believe that they still have rights and certain entitlements. Is this purely explained by secularism and moral relativism (which is what I assume), or is there something else there that I am not aware of as a Western Gentile?
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 05:45:13 PM
I actually meant that in a good way. Kind of a play on what Rabbi Kahane said when he quoted from the book of Joshua about all of the wiping out of the Canaanites, and said "I just want to expel the Arabs, because I'm basically a moderate."

I know when you hear the word moderate, weasels like McCain and Arlen Spector and other assorted rifraff usually are what comes to mind.

But I actually meant it in a good way. A term of endearment, actually.
OK, well thank you, then.  :) I knew you meant it in a good way, I just didn't actually understand your context.

But you have a good point. We ARE all moderates using HaRav Meir Kahane (zt"l)'s definition. G-d commanded Israel to completely wipe out the Canaanite/Amalekite/Midianite/Jebusite proto-Muslim Nazis. We only want to remove their descendants, the Arab Nazis, from Israel. The fact is that G-d would be commanding a shoah against the Muslim Nazi Amalekites today if He were directly speaking to Israel today. But, we do not believe in or advocate that.

But while on this subject, why do you think, since you live in Israel and have been exposed to many sick, secular leftists, that so many average Israelis believe Arabs have "civil rights" and have a legitimate "historical claim" to a Fakestine state? According to opinion polls even done by the Left, the vast majority of Israelis do know the Arabs want to kill them all--and yet they believe that they still have rights and certain entitlements. Is this purely explained by secularism and moral relativism (which is what I assume), or is there something else there that I am not aware of as a Western Gentile?

I would like to see these opinion polls if you can quote them.

But Israel is a divided country. And when I go to Tel Aviv, I'm stepping into a leftist paradise. I think the Average Tel-Aviv resident would be happy to hand over all lands other than Tel-Aviv.

Then I go home to "The Gush" and I feel like I am seeing the rebirth of the Israelite Nation. I can't go fully into it but there is a slow cultural revolution among the Hilltop Youth and others that is quite encouraging. It sometimes brings me to tears to be perfectly honest. It is very beautiful. I cannot express it in words, but I see it happening every day.

I sometimes wish that they would give the Arabs Tel Aviv instead of Gush Katif so we could cleanse our voter rolls and elect some decent people. Just kidding, I don't want to give the Arabs anything but a bus ride to Jordan.

I don't know what the future will be. But I see encouraging signs atleast where I live. Some Haredi Rabbis are changing their tune and I think that very slowly they and their flocks will move along with the rest of us to Total National Rebirth.

As far as secular people. I am stunned that there is such a thing as a secular right-winger. We atleast have our own schools. These people are subjected to leftist propoganda morning, noon and night.

Israel doesn't have any right wing media of any kind. Lily-livered or rock-ribbed.

They just ban anyone who disagrees with them.

I do have to say though, that I agree with Hayim that Kahanism is growing. Atleast in Jerusalem and in Judea. I see posters of Rabbi Kahane on Walls right outside the Jerusalem Central Bus Station and in the bus station on my little "settlement".

Tel Aviv, on the other hand, the only posters are for reggae and rap parties and techno raves. It's pretty depressing.



Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 18, 2008, 09:47:10 PM
I would like to see these opinion polls if you can quote them.
I posted one a few weeks back by the War and Peace Index, a left-wing Tel Aviv think tank.

It found that something like 63% of Israelis do believe the Arabs want to kill them all, but that a similar margin still believe the Fakestinians have a historical and moral claim to a state of their "own."

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: DownwithIslam on December 19, 2008, 06:56:18 AM
Judeanoncapta, you are right. Chabad is for immigration to the land of Israel but even it's true that the rebbe didnt want every last jew there. This is evident by the fact that they send shluchim to all parts of the world. I believe that the rebbe took this position simply because he knew that not all jews would pick up and move to israel and that chabad would be needed wherever their are jews.

As far as Torahanytime, Judeanoncapta is right again. While it's not a terrible site by any means, it could use some improving. I don't believe it's like Aguda or those types. I have a problem with a Rabbi who picks himself up and leaves Israel. That is what Rabbi Mizrahi did. Are you telling me their are no non religious jews in israel who he could help? Why did he move to monsey. Judeanoncapta proved his money was where his mouth is by actually moving to Israel while Rabbi Mizrahi moved out. I also didn't like how he seems to bash the "goyim" alot when their are many bible believing christian supporters of Israel. Many of the videos he posts are titles "debate vs christian." Wouldn't it be better if he bashed islam? I see that he posts many videos on nonsensical topics and doesn't encourage people to move to Israel. He doesn't even sound like he supports Israel at all. I saw some of the names of Rabbis on their menu and most seem worse than Rabbi Mizrahi.

Look, Judeanoncapta knows much more about torahanytime.com than me so their must be legitimate reasons why he believes it should be called onethirdoftorahanytime.com
I believe that many of the events they put together do bring kids closer to judaism so thats a good thing. I just am not totally impressed with what they do. They could use that site to give jews a real jewish lesson but they dont.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 19, 2008, 09:04:24 AM
Judeanoncapta, you are right. Chabad is for immigration to the land of Israel but even it's true that the rebbe didnt want every last jew there. This is evident by the fact that they send shluchim to all parts of the world. I believe that the rebbe took this position simply because he knew that not all jews would pick up and move to israel and that chabad would be needed wherever their are jews.

As far as Torahanytime, Judeanoncapta is right again. While it's not a terrible site by any means, it could use some improving. I don't believe it's like Aguda or those types. I have a problem with a Rabbi who picks himself up and leaves Israel. That is what Rabbi Mizrahi did. Are you telling me their are no non religious jews in israel who he could help? Why did he move to monsey. Judeanoncapta proved his money was where his mouth is by actually moving to Israel while Rabbi Mizrahi moved out. I also didn't like how he seems to bash the "goyim" alot when their are many bible believing christian supporters of Israel. Many of the videos he posts are titles "debate vs christian." Wouldn't it be better if he bashed islam? I see that he posts many videos on nonsensical topics and doesn't encourage people to move to Israel. He doesn't even sound like he supports Israel at all. I saw some of the names of Rabbis on their menu and most seem worse than Rabbi Mizrahi.

Look, Judeanoncapta knows much more about torahanytime.com than me so their must be legitimate reasons why he believes it should be called onethirdoftorahanytime.com
I believe that many of the events they put together do bring kids closer to judaism so thats a good thing. I just am not totally impressed with what they do. They could use that site to give jews a real jewish lesson but they dont.

 Like I told you in pm earlier, if you really cared you would have emailed him and gotten your answer instead of speaking lashon hara here. (and I dont have to explain over and over that he was not religious when he left, he does and did speak of the greatness of living in Israel)
 - Why does he bash xtianity? Becuase he feels like it, he is not jtf and he does not work with them, so he can say whatever he wants (as long as it is true).
 Why doesn't he bash islam? - He does disprove it also (easily), but like he said, he doesn't need and doesn't want to talk too harshly agains't islam because 1- Its not really popular for Jews to convert to it, and 2- he feels their is no need to needlessly put himself in danger because they are fanatics who kill people that speak harsh words agains't them. Christians on the other hand wont harm him, so he speaks his mind freely agains't that religion (which in a way is a complement becuase at least things can openly be said, as opposed to Islam whom you cant have open dialogue without being afraid of getting killed- like it used to be with the christians in europe).
 - His debate with christian was brilliant. Do you know how many x- Christians became noahides becuase of that? Also how it raised Judaism in the eyes of Jews.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 19, 2008, 09:27:50 AM
And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabb-t and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabb-t, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
  Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 19, 2008, 10:14:22 AM
And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
  Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.

Tzvi,  JNC's criticism of torahanytime is not specific to it, he would have to  apply it to the majourity of orthodox jews in the world, including Chabad. Maybe DWI won't be so happy now.

Also Tzvi, I think you misunderstand rabbi mizrachi's reasons for talking about christianity and islam. It is counter-missionary and to bring jews back to judaism by showing -jews- how judaism is better.  So it is not really bashing those religions.  e.g. it's not like how muslims set up a website against christianity..
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 19, 2008, 10:38:58 AM
And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
  Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.

Also Tzvi, I think you misunderstand rabbi mizrachi's reasons for talking about christianity and islam. It is counter-missionary and to bring jews back to judaism by showing -jews- how judaism is better.  So it is not really bashing those religions.  e.g. it's not like how muslims set up a website against christianity..


 I also know about that, I was only replying to DWI who asked why he bashes other religions.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: DownwithIslam on December 19, 2008, 12:19:58 PM
Look, I don't dislike Rabbi Mizrahi. In fact I think he is a wonderful man who means well but is mistaken on some issues. For instance, the reason he supports the shas party is because he thinks they are a right wing religious party who support israel. He means well but is wrong. I think he is wrong for criticism Christianity when we have real enemies in the world.

Q_Q, I know that JudeaNoncapta doesn't like Chabad, I have been on the forum long enough to know that. Of course I am unhappy with that but it doesn't mean we can't work together for a good cause. I am sure me and him agree on many issues like what needs to be done to muzzies etc so I choose to discuss with him the things we agree on.

On a side issue, I always have a problem understanding how people can hate Lubavitch. Sure every group has problems but the good they do is incomparable to anyone else. No other group is willing to sacrifice so much just to make sure that people are jews no matter where in the world they are. While the Satmar are sitting in williamsburg fressing chulent and kugel, the lubavitcher are on the lebanon border, in mumbai india and man other places trying to uplift the spirit of jews around the world. No other group brings jews back to judaism on the level that lubavitch does.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 19, 2008, 02:26:36 PM
Whatever else he has done, if he thinks it's okay to bash Christianity and not Islam only because the former poses no threat to him, he is a coward, plain and simple. And I think he has many better things to do than to proselytize to Christians (not that I think he does not have the right to do that, just that it is counterproductive to what should be his mission in the world). I will say though that any so-called Christian who is convinced to leave their faith never was one in the first place.

Back to Muslims: I'd like to see Rabbi Mizrahi try to convert some Muslims. As you yourself said Tzvi, it's not at all hard to refute Islam. The Koran was not codified in any official sense until about 150 years after the "prophet"'s death at minimum and at one point, according to Islamic tradition itself, there were actually FOUR competing versions of the Koran that came about at the same time and were put together by equally "competent" (or not) "companions of the Prophet"). Only one of these codices (that done by Abu Zaid) was actually chosen, and the caliph at that time (Uthman I believe) ordered all others destroyed. Or the Hadiths: out of something like 100,000 total "sayings of the Prophet", only 6,000 were selected--again out of the arbitrary whim of one of the caliphs in the 800s, or 250 years after the "Prophet"'s death. Again, the fact that Rabbi Mizrahi does not do any of this is cowardly. It is not that hard to engage Muslim leaders in "interfaith debate". It could be framed in the context of dawa (Islamic missionizing).
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 19, 2008, 03:03:41 PM
Whatever else he has done, if he thinks it's okay to bash Christianity and not Islam only because the former poses no threat to him, he is a coward, plain and simple. And I think he has many better things to do than to proselytize to Christians (not that I think he does not have the right to do that, just that it is counterproductive to what should be his mission in the world). I will say though that any so-called Christian who is convinced to leave their faith never was one in the first place.

Back to Muslims: I'd like to see Rabbi Mizrahi try to convert some Muslims. As you yourself said Tzvi, it's not at all hard to refute Islam. The Koran was not codified in any official sense until about 150 years after the "prophet"'s death at minimum and at one point, according to Islamic tradition itself, there were actually FOUR competing versions of the Koran that came about at the same time and were put together by equally "competent" (or not) "companions of the Prophet"). Only one of these codices (that done by Abu Zaid) was actually chosen, and the caliph at that time (Uthman I believe) ordered all others destroyed. Or the Hadiths: out of something like 100,000 total "sayings of the Prophet", only 6,000 were selected--again out of the arbitrary whim of one of the caliphs in the 800s, or 250 years after the "Prophet"'s death. Again, the fact that Rabbi Mizrahi does not do any of this is cowardly. It is not that hard to engage Muslim leaders in "interfaith debate". It could be framed in the context of dawa (Islamic missionizing).

 Actually he does disprove islam, in many of the lectures he talks about the other world religions and disproves them easily (both islam and xtianity, etc. ).
  And saying that one doesn't want to engage in debates  does not make one a coward.(or even not saying it, but just not having it- and also with the case of this christian missionary, this guy came to our community and started preaching his nonsense. Eventually, thank G-d he was publicly defeated so that one wouldn't have to follow him around and see which Jews he is brainwashing and telling lies. They had this completly open debate and anyone can see the results. I dont think this guy even comes around anymore. And he was welcomed back to Beit Gavriel in forest Hills, Anytime)
  Also with moslems- 1 we dont see them missionizing (and if that was the case other things would be done- probably will be more aggressive) and 2-People have to be smart, and people must take care of their life. If someone who doesn't have body guards talks agains't these fanatics, then they can be dead like rushdie (actually I remembered now that R Mizrachi did origionally talk very strongly agains't islam, but then they edited the Divine Information video, becuase it is just no worth it if it will not change anything.)
  It was the same in the past with christian europe. The Rabbis would not talk strong words agains't that because they knew that they would endanger themselves and their communities. And they did what they HAD to do.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 19, 2008, 03:06:29 PM
" will say though that any so-called Christian who is convinced to leave their faith never was one in the first place."

 No. Their are x- christians who knew a lot, one of them even spoke publicly in Beit Gavriel (a latino like you). was verry religious, spoke about his life, etc. and then how he changed by seeing the debate.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 19, 2008, 03:13:28 PM
Also with moslems- 1 we dont see them missionizing (and if that was the case other things would be done- probably will be more aggressive)
That's not true; dawa (evangelism) is one of the central commandments of Islam. In parts of London, it's impossible to walk two blocks without getting preached to by a bunch of ragheads.

Quote
and 2-People have to be smart, and people must take care of their life. If someone who doesn't have body guards talks agains't these fanatics, then they can be dead like rushdie (actually I remembered now that R Mizrachi did origionally talk very strongly agains't islam, but then they edited the Divine Information video, becuase it is just no worth it if it will not change anything.)
Anything can happen to anybody. It isn't "safe" to criticize Islam anywhere, certainly not even Israel (where the Bolshevik apparatus of the state and most of the population alike both give preferential treatment to Muslims over each other). I am not advocating wild, blatant flaming, but he can scathingly refute the premises of Islam without being willfully insulting. Why does he have the need to insult Christianity? What does he hope to accomplish by flaming Christianity? All he is going to do by this is push his natural allies away and convince Christians and many fellow Jews alike that he is a crackpot.

Quote
It was the same in the past with christian europe. The Rabbis would not talk strong words agains't that because they knew that they would endanger themselves and their communities. And they did what they HAD to do.
This isn't "Christian" medieval Europe. Christians are not Amalek today. I see what you are saying but the Christians of today (or at least many of them) have not done anything to merit this attack. If Rabbi Mizrahi is merely debating a Christian evangelist who has come to him that is one thing, but to just flame Christians in general is completely uncalled-for and a cheap shot.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 19, 2008, 03:16:46 PM
" will say though that any so-called Christian who is convinced to leave their faith never was one in the first place."

 No. Their are x- christians who knew a lot, one of them even spoke publicly in Beit Gavriel (a latino like you). was verry religious, spoke about his life, etc. and then how he changed by seeing the debate.
It is a matter of teaching in the Christian Scriptures (the New Testament) that anyone who "goes out from" the Christian faith never belonged to it in a first place; therefore, this is central Christian doctrine, and not just opinion. That is why I said what I did.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 19, 2008, 03:18:07 PM
The difference between Christians and Muslims is:

The Christian will kill the Jew spiritually (Assimiliation/Intermarriage and Crusades/Inquisitions)
The Muslim will kill the Jew physically (Jihad)

I have heard many Rabbis make this statement.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 19, 2008, 03:20:52 PM
I have watched Rabbi Mizrachi and have not heard a thing which is not true. I dont know why some people here feel a need to disprect Rabbis who have studied and present the Torah in a very powerful message.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: DownwithIslam on December 19, 2008, 03:53:22 PM
I have watched Rabbi Mizrachi and have not heard a thing which is not true. I dont know why some people here feel a need to disprect Rabbis who have studied and present the Torah in a very powerful message.


Muman, Rabbi Mizrahi is far from perfect, which is normal for a human being. I am always skeptical of anyone who leaves israel. He needs to stop the christian bashing because it doesn't make him look that smart. Why bash people who support israel, unless he doesn't care about israel. I honestly believe his is just not bright and that is why he gets involved in this stuff. I try to believe that he doesn't do it intentionally. If he bashes christians, then why did he come to a christian country? He ran away from a jewish country didn't he?
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 19, 2008, 04:04:07 PM
I have watched Rabbi Mizrachi and have not heard a thing which is not true. I dont know why some people here feel a need to disprect Rabbis who have studied and present the Torah in a very powerful message.


Muman, Rabbi Mizrahi is far from perfect, which is normal for a human being. I am always skeptical of anyone who leaves israel. He needs to stop the christian bashing because it doesn't make him look that smart. Why bash people who support israel, unless he doesn't care about israel. I honestly believe his is just not bright and that is why he gets involved in this stuff. I try to believe that he doesn't do it intentionally. If he bashes christians, then why did he come to a christian country? He ran away from a jewish country didn't he?

DWI,

I share with Rabbi Mizrachi a very serious problem with Christian missionaries. I dont want to get involved in bringing up sensitive topics so I will leave it at this. When I was a young man I was told by a Christian friend I was going to hell. I was never friends again with this person.

I don't consider America a Christian country as you do. Our constitution clearly intends America to be religiously nuetral and that is what makes it so great. Freedom of Religion is Americas true strength and is why my family emigrated here at the turn of the 20th century.

My family has suffered mightily to the ravages of Assimiliation. America has been so good to the Jew that it has quitely killed the Jewish soul. There are no Jews left in my family because all have married non-Jewish women. I am the only true Jew left in my family. I work hard on trying to preserve the Jewish identity in a culture which is very anti-Jewish.

PS: Israel should not need non-Jewish support. Never in our history has anything good come from the nations for the Jewish people. Why should we believe it will change?


Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 20, 2008, 06:09:34 PM
C.F. he does refute islam also. And about missionizing, I was referring to that specific guy he had the dabate with- that guy came to us (our community) and was missionizing door to door. So he was invited for a debate, and the rest is on tape.
Anyway DWI im sorry to say that you are just inflaming things, please show some respect to Rav Mizrachi. Again if you really care about the Israel thing then just email or call him. Infact come to 108th street (Beit Gavriel) on the 31th and ask him in person if you want.
  And by the way, he does talk down about Arabs (as does the Torah) "Peri Adam". And with the whole insuting chrisitians thing- he doesn't really insult chrisitians, maybe once in a while he might refer to jc as jc penny. Or say that marry was you know what, but he directs it more to the religion (not the people).
  Anyway about allies- not everyone sees it that way. If their is an organization that does then that is their buisness, and it doesn't make it obligatory for everyone else to follow that. (And by the Torah- straight from the Bible I can show you that the prophets said counter to that also).
  What you see is your own little mission. And as long as other groups support that mission of yours then everything else is okay. What you see is supporting zionism, so as long as anyone supposidly supports Jews going back to Israel, everything else is completly okay by you. (You will probably say no but if you analyze your thoughts and at least what you write and who you see as "good" and "bad" or "right and wrong" it is completly based on who supports Jews living in Israel or not, ignoring everything else.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 20, 2008, 06:10:55 PM
Rabbi Mizrachi's website is for jews.  

Yes. some over-zealous unwise newly religious jewish idiot(s) post RABBI VS CHRISTIAN onto the forum, and gentiles ignorant of these things, get that impression.

The torahanytime website is for jews, and things dealing with christianity are counter-missionary..  Or, purely targetted at jews to try to get them to believe judaism.

It's not bashing other religions.
It's about bringing jews to judaism.  It's not for gentiles e.g. christians and muslims.

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 20, 2008, 06:21:22 PM
<snip>
Q_Q, I know that JudeaNoncapta doesn't like Chabad, <snip>

just to be clear, I didn't say that.

I said that his argument about a third of the torah any time ,applies to them and most orthodox jews in the world....
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: New Yorker on December 20, 2008, 06:27:25 PM

Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile?

You have already done it, the first two-thirds of the Christian bible is the Torah, Genesis, the books of Moses, so if you are a Christian you've already technically accepted it. It is a non-issue, you are already there.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 20, 2008, 06:33:25 PM

Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile?

You have already done it, the first two-thirds of the Christian bible is the Torah, Genesis, the books of Moses, so if you are a Christian you've already technically accepted it. It is a non-issue, you are already there.

no. When Jews say Torah, it means Written and Oral.  It means the Torah belief in G-d(not a trinity).
 
And it means accepting, as the oral law says, that G-d gave 7 laws to Adam and Noah.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 20, 2008, 08:37:23 PM
Here is a good video I just saw on youtube (new video of subscribtion that I have)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5-g2V2MgxU
 
 - About Jews incouraging the nations to keep the 7 laws (also about NOT discouraging converts) - Material mainly from the Rambam.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: DownwithIslam on December 20, 2008, 10:47:54 PM
Tzvi, don't get me wrong, I don't consider Rabbi Mizrahi to be a bad person, he comes across as a humble, kind man in his videos. I simply believe him to be mistaken on many things. If he wants to prevent assimilation, he can do that in ways other than to bash christians in general. He should know damn well that their are bible believing christians who love israel. I think the fact that he tries to bring jews back to judaism is a wonderful thing. All I am saying is that I doubt he can win an argument with chaim over the christian issue and leaving israel.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: ItalianZionist on December 20, 2008, 11:44:50 PM
they said 86% of israeli Arabs are decscended from Jews. Is this true?
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 21, 2008, 12:08:46 AM
The Christian will kill the Jew spiritually (Assimiliation/Intermarriage and Crusades/Inquisitions)
The Muslim will kill the Jew physically (Jihad)
I tried to respond to this on Friday, but it was literally the very last second before the forum closed for Shabbat and my reply was not saved.

I know what you are saying, but what I can say is that intermarriage, at least, is strongly condemned by Christianity just as much as it is in Judaism. No true Christian would advocate marrying Jews or any other non-Christians. It is a huge sin to us too.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 12:33:47 AM
Tzvi just posted a video to make more jews more into judaism..It critiqued christianity (and islam). He posted it to gentiles.. Doing that -is- bashing christianity (and islam).

I posted a long response as to why that was wrong. explanation(relevant to future posts too).. And as they deleted tzvi's post, they deleted mine..

(they may have deleted mine because I said that christianity caused us problems, it taking 2000 years to domesticate.. but most christians here would agree we have had around 2000 years of misery from people that call themselves christians.  I think they deleted mine because they thought it wasn't relevant anymore since tzvi deleted his post. But it is relevant to the future)

in short I said that you shouldn't bash christianity in good times or bad times.
my post was deleted with tzvi's.

anyhow, beware..


I really can't be bothered if this sort of thing happens.

it takes time to write a post.

and it is still very relevant to my position in the future when this happens again , these things are posted again and the merits and demerits of posting them are discussed. I don't like going through all my thoughts again unnecessarily.. And I dont like repeating myself. And it's a waste of time.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 21, 2008, 12:51:48 AM
I also didn't like how he seems to bash the "goyim" alot when their are many bible believing christian supporters of Israel. Many of the videos he posts are titles "debate vs christian." Wouldn't it be better if he bashed islam?

True, I am all in favor of "live and let live" when it comes to christians and not attempting to proselytize christians.

However, the christian he debated was a Jew who had converted to christianity. When the Christian world spends millions of dollars every year to convert Jews to christianity, Jews are required to respond. And that is what Rabbi Mizrahi was doing. I do not oppose him on that at all.

As far as bashing goyim, I am not in favor of that. But Goyim that attack the Jewish people, physically or spiritually must be responded to.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 21, 2008, 12:57:06 AM
Why doesn't he bash islam? - He does disprove it also (easily), but like he said, he doesn't need and doesn't want to talk too harshly agains't islam because 1- Its not really popular for Jews to convert to it, and 2- he feels their is no need to needlessly put himself in danger because they are fanatics who kill people that speak harsh words agains't them. Christians on the other hand wont harm him, so he speaks his mind freely agains't that religion (which in a way is a complement becuase at least things can openly be said, as opposed to Islam whom you cant have open dialogue without being afraid of getting killed- like it used to be with the christians in europe).

I don't think that fear of Islamic fanatics should be taken into account.

Maimonides bashed Muhammad and Islam while living as a dhimmi under the Islamic Califate. If he wasn't afraid, neither should Rabbi Mizrahi be afraid.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: New Yorker on December 21, 2008, 01:03:19 AM

Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile?

You have already done it, the first two-thirds of the Christian bible is the Torah, Genesis, the books of Moses, so if you are a Christian you've already technically accepted it. It is a non-issue, you are already there.

no. When Jews say Torah, it means Written and Oral.  It means the Torah belief in G-d(not a trinity).
 
And it means accepting, as the oral law says, that G-d gave 7 laws to Adam and Noah.

Whatever, for a Gentile, following the written law is enough, in practical terms how are they even going to have access to the Oral Law, they don't attend synagogue. And if they do, well, they might as well convert for all that trouble.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 21, 2008, 01:05:56 AM
Why doesn't he bash islam? - He does disprove it also (easily), but like he said, he doesn't need and doesn't want to talk too harshly agains't islam because 1- Its not really popular for Jews to convert to it, and 2- he feels their is no need to needlessly put himself in danger because they are fanatics who kill people that speak harsh words agains't them. Christians on the other hand wont harm him, so he speaks his mind freely agains't that religion (which in a way is a complement becuase at least things can openly be said, as opposed to Islam whom you cant have open dialogue without being afraid of getting killed- like it used to be with the christians in europe).

I don't think that fear of Islamic fanatics should be taken into account.

Maimonides bashed Muhammad and Islam while living as a dhimmi under the Islamic Califate. If he wasn't afraid, neither should Rabbi Mizrahi be afraid.

 Rambam wrote in a private letter sent to the Jews of Yemen about Islam. The liklyhood of someone reading it was slim. Putting a video online where everyone has access to it is different. - Anyway it is a personal choice. And like I said he does disprove their claims, but doesn't say things like mo was a pig or a child molester or something like that.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 21, 2008, 01:06:58 AM

Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile?

You have already done it, the first two-thirds of the Christian bible is the Torah, Genesis, the books of Moses, so if you are a Christian you've already technically accepted it. It is a non-issue, you are already there.

no. When Jews say Torah, it means Written and Oral.  It means the Torah belief in G-d(not a trinity).
 
And it means accepting, as the oral law says, that G-d gave 7 laws to Adam and Noah.

Whatever, for a Gentile, following the written law is enough, in practical terms how are they even going to have access to the Oral Law, they don't attend synagogue. And if they do, well, they might as well convert for all that trouble.


 :laugh: that is too much. No one is requesting to follow the written law (and i'm sure you dont keep Shabb-t (if your a gentile).
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 01:08:41 AM

Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile?

You have already done it, the first two-thirds of the Christian bible is the Torah, Genesis, the books of Moses, so if you are a Christian you've already technically accepted it. It is a non-issue, you are already there.

no. When Jews say Torah, it means Written and Oral.  It means the Torah belief in G-d(not a trinity).
 
And it means accepting, as the oral law says, that G-d gave 7 laws to Adam and Noah.

Whatever, for a Gentile, following the written law is enough, in practical terms how are they even going to have access to the Oral Law, they don't attend synagogue. And if they do, well, they might as well convert for all that trouble.


BELIEF in the truth of it.  Not following it(if following it means following jewish law, and it usually does since that is 99% of it).

The Torah, says that jews shouild follow jewish law and gentiles, the noachide laws.

Obviously, ideally, not believing in non-torah doctrines. Having a Torah understanding of G-d and prophets, and , well, the Torah.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 21, 2008, 01:09:31 AM
And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
  Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.

I think that you have hit directly on my point. He teaches only what is applicable to Jews living in Exile. ie applicable today.

That is Galuth Judaism. I think that we must be striving for something greater. ie the other 413 commandments.

I know that a Jew living in Galuth needs Galuth Judaism to stay alive. I fully realize that.

But in Israel, the last thing that we need is Galuth Judaism. Galuth Judaism blinds us and makes us immobile. It makes us unable to conceive of what the entire Torah system actually is because we are so caught up in maintaining the customs that we were used to in Galuth. When my Rav put out a psak that all Jews in Israel no matter where their ancestors came from may eat Qitnioth on Pesah, he received death threats. That is Galuth Judaism, my friend. That is Galuth Judaism.

And also, I think if you asked Rav Mizrahi "If the Israeli Government changed it's mind tommorow and said 'If you want to build the Temple tommorow, go ahead', Should we go ahead and build it?", I guarrantee you that he would say "No!!"

So, it's not a question of how much he speaks or doesn't speak about the other 413 commandments, it's a matter of whether he uprooted and voided the other 413 commandments. That is the real issue.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 21, 2008, 01:22:21 AM
And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
  Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.

I think that you have hit directly on my point. He teaches only what is applicable to Jews living in Exile. ie applicable today.

That is Galuth Judaism. I think that we must be striving for something greater. ie the other 413 commandments.

I know that a Jew living in Galuth needs Galuth Judaism to stay alive. I fully realize that.

But in Israel, the last thing that we need is Galuth Judaism. Galuth Judaism blinds us and makes us immobile. It makes us unable to conceive of what the entire Torah system actually is because we are so caught up in maintaining the customs that we were used to in Galuth. When my Rav put out a psak that all Jews in Israel no matter where their ancestors came from may eat Qitnioth on Pesah, he received death threats. That is Galuth Judaism, my friend. That is Galuth Judaism.

And also, I think if you asked Rav Mizrahi "If the Israeli Government changed it's mind tommorow and said 'If you want to build the Temple tommorow, go ahead', Should we go ahead and build it?", I guarrantee you that he would say "No!!"

So, it's not a question of how much he speaks or doesn't speak about the other 413 commandments, it's a matter of whether he uprooted and voided the other 413 commandments. That is the real issue.

 But that is making an assumption though. And their would have to be a plan made on how to build it. Given that, I dont know, if you want to you can always ask before making assumptions.
 
  Anyway presenting for example his type of lectures (the one's aimed specifically to non-religious Jews- the majority) is the doorway that would only make what you are proposing possible. Why? because with the proofs, with Shabb-t, and encoragement to learn Toroh, then Jews could go deeper into the Torah and explore all the different parts of it (including sacrifices etc.) No one (or very very few) who do not believe in the Toroh as Divine will go and study on how to present sacrifices, what should a Kohen do, etc. At the very least people need a doorway, correct? We need the nation to connect with the Toroh, in a time when their are many in the world who deny it, and have doubts. Rav Mizrachi mainly focuses on eliminating the doubt in the Toroh and presenting it as the Divine book that it is.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 01:26:30 AM
And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
  Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.

I think that you have hit directly on my point. He teaches only what is applicable to Jews living in Exile. ie applicable today.

That is Galuth Judaism. I think that we must be striving for something greater. ie the other 413 commandments.

I know that a Jew living in Galuth needs Galuth Judaism to stay alive. I fully realize that.

But in Israel, the last thing that we need is Galuth Judaism. Galuth Judaism blinds us and makes us immobile. It makes us unable to conceive of what the entire Torah system actually is because we are so caught up in maintaining the customs that we were used to in Galuth. When my Rav put out a psak that all Jews in Israel no matter where their ancestors came from may eat Qitnioth on Pesah, he received death threats. That is Galuth Judaism, my friend. That is Galuth Judaism.

And also, I think if you asked Rav Mizrahi "If the Israeli Government changed it's mind tommorow and said 'If you want to build the Temple tommorow, go ahead', Should we go ahead and build it?", I guarrantee you that he would say "No!!"

So, it's not a question of how much he speaks or doesn't speak about the other 413 commandments, it's a matter of whether he uprooted and voided the other 413 commandments. That is the real issue.

That does merge a few things though..

Galus judaism as judaism applicable for when in Galus..

and galus judaism as in , the unintellectual rhetoric and behaviour.. like whoever sends death threats to rabbi bar hayyim over the kitniyot issue!

While in galus, the kitniyot custom was questioned.. So there was a galus judaism without that..  Just as there was a galus judaism with less kabbalah.. And other things that became more in galus.

The details about the sacrifices are taught.. because every word of the torah is holy.. Sometimes rabbis doing popular talks don't talk about it.. But serious ones do..  So I don't see a galus judaism without that. I guess you are talking about on a really serious level so the rabbi is confident and knows what to do.  Indeed.. I have read that nowadays these things are left to "the gedolim", though everything is, so that comes down to gedolim again

The Korban pesach , there are reasons both ways.  So there are many issues here..  All of which you put under a banner of galus judaism.. Rabbis have debated it. So it's not purely "gedolim say".

Are modern Eruvs "galus judaism" or just wrong..  One can blur it into that label. Saying Gedolim..

Really these are all separate issues, that deserve iondividual attention , the only thing connecting them are Gedolim, but they are behind anything.
The Gedolim thing crept up in Galus.  But these general labels cause us not to give any of these things properly schoalrly attention..

It would be great if you wrote scholarly articles on these individual things. You did a great show on the korban pesach. But i'm sure you had written notes on it..  A written document is much better for something so serious.  And then you really don't have to repeat yourself.  
You can number the paragraphs and refer people to whatever paragraph of your document!
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 21, 2008, 01:38:25 AM
True, I am all in favor of "live and let live" when it comes to christians and not attempting to proselytize christians.

However, the christian he debated was a Jew who had converted to christianity. When the Christian world spends millions of dollars every year to convert Jews to christianity, Jews are required to respond. And that is what Rabbi Mizrahi was doing. I do not oppose him on that at all.
I will confess I don't really know who this Rabbi is and exactly what he is saying about Christianity. Obviously he has the right to debate a Christian who is trying to convert him to Christianity. If that is ALL he is doing, and he is NOT issuing a polemic against Christianity in general, then I take back what I said.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 21, 2008, 01:44:17 AM
DownwithIslam, I don't think Judeanoncapta is anti-Chabad. Far from it. He has some theological issues with them (especially their rabbi), but he does not think they are bad Jews that must be converted.

Now, I do agree with you that when 99% of Chabad are hardcore Zionists even if just by default, there isn't really a need to argue with any of their views, at least on this forum. I think my analogy between Chabad/Breslov Hasidic Jews and other conservative, biblical Jews and Pentecostals and non-Pentecostal right-wing Bible-believing Christians was valid--there might be some genuine theological differences at the microcosmic level, but nothing worth airing public disagreements over when they agree on 99% of matters of faith and culture.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 01:44:41 AM
True, I am all in favor of "live and let live" when it comes to christians and not attempting to proselytize christians.

However, the christian he debated was a Jew who had converted to christianity. When the Christian world spends millions of dollars every year to convert Jews to christianity, Jews are required to respond. And that is what Rabbi Mizrahi was doing. I do not oppose him on that at all.
I will confess I don't really know who this Rabbi is and exactly what he is saying about Christianity. Obviously he has the right to debate a Christian who is trying to convert him to Christianity. If that is ALL he is doing, and he is NOT issuing a polemic against Christianity in general, then I take back what I said.

Some do issue arguments against christianity in general(as a response to missionaries).. he styled it as a response to that christian missionary that was bothering them.

Of course to counter missionaries one would be arguing against christianity in general.  But it's to counter missionaries. It's not targetted to a gentile audience.

I don't think you will find ONE rabbi or jewish organisation that targets a gentile audience and argues against christianity.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 01:46:56 AM
DownwithIslam, I don't think Judeanoncapta is anti-Chabad. Far from it. He has some theological issues with them (especially their rabbi), but he does not think they are bad Jews that must be converted.

Now, I do agree with you that when 99% of Chabad are hardcore Zionists even if just by default, there isn't really a need to argue with any of their views, at least on this forum. I think my analogy between Chabad/Breslov Hasidic Jews and other conservative, biblical Jews and Pentecostals and non-Pentecostal right-wing Bible-believing Christians was valid--there might be some genuine theological differences at the microcosmic level, but nothing worth airing public disagreements over when they agree on 99% of matters of faith and culture.

As Wafa Sultan said. People have the right to decide what they are called..

Chabad would not call themselves Zionists.  To call them "hardcore zionists" is crazy.  Very ignorant. Though that is to be expected.. I don't know why you speak in detail about chabad and breslov when you cannot possibly know about them.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 21, 2008, 01:54:25 AM
Chabad would not call themselves Zionists.  To call them "hardcore zionists" is crazy.  Very ignorant. Though that is to be expected.. I don't know why you speak in detail about chabad and breslov when you cannot possibly know about them.
LOL I do recall saying "by default". But someone of such great rhetorical depth as you probably missed such an inconspicuous comment.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 02:21:42 AM
Chabad would not call themselves Zionists.  To call them "hardcore zionists" is crazy.  Very ignorant. Though that is to be expected.. I don't know why you speak in detail about chabad and breslov when you cannot possibly know about them.
LOL I do recall saying "by default". But someone of such great rhetorical depth as you probably missed such an inconspicuous comment.

They certainly would not call themselves zionists "by default" either.


Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 21, 2008, 02:34:15 AM
They certainly would not call themselves zionists "by default" either.
Being the huge fan of the Lubavitch that you are, I guess you would know.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 02:37:55 AM
They certainly would not call themselves zionists "by default" either.
Being the huge fan of the Lubavitch that you are, I guess you would know.

I have donated money to my local chabad house, i've eaten there, and besides that, I would know.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 21, 2008, 02:43:11 AM
I have donated money to my local chabad house, i've eaten there, and besides that, I would know.
Yeah.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 21, 2008, 03:12:43 AM
I have donated money to my local chabad house, i've eaten there, and besides that, I would know.
Yeah.

C.F,

In all honesty Chabad is not truly Zionistic like you envision. My point is that all of Chassidus is not zionistic by our definition.

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 03:20:43 AM
I have donated money to my local chabad house, i've eaten there, and besides that, I would know.
Yeah.

C.F,

In all honesty Chabad is not truly Zionistic like you envision. My point is that all of Chassidus is not zionistic by our definition.



not just chassidus. "non chassidus" too. religious Misnagdim are largely non or anti zionist.

we don't need to repeat though that practically speaking, there is little difference.  No difference in terms of directly costing jewish lives giving land. The difference is on a theoretical point in the past, possibly a theoretical point on the future, and  the semantics of the word zionism.

Shas's big problem costing jewish lives, is not that they are not religious zionist. It's that they give land for peace when it's, against the Torah according to RZs.  Infact, according to ovadia yosef, it's against the Torah to give land when it doesn't get true peace, the guy is a mess.

There is a big difference between non-zionists and rabbi bar hayyim religious zionism in terms of future dreams.. psychologically and in jewish life. But this is not the issue of directly costing jewish lives with suicidal policies.

In britain, we had only 2 or 3 rabbis that would write in the main jewish press defending israel. One chabad, one died, and one religious zionist that has since made aliyah.  Often in the right wing modern orthodox shuls, even centrist modern orthodox, the rabbi is not a zionist even if many conregants are. And modern orthodox in britain is to the left of in The USA. (some are like many masorti type congregants with an orthodox rabbi that makes sure things are run properly and any religious jew is able to daven there). still, there aren't many RZ rabbis in the diaspora (if there were they would go to israel)..  So, it's far from just chassidim. It's misnagdim too.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Chaim Ben Pesach on December 21, 2008, 07:27:27 AM
                                                                                                                                                                             בס''ד

This rabbi was born and raised in Israel, and then abandoned Israel in 1989 when he was 21 years old. He has lived in America since 1989.

What a terrible example he sets for the Jewish people! If everyone did what he did, not only would the state of Israel be destroyed, the entire Jewish people would be destroyed, G-d forbid. He left Israel to make money in the Diamond District and then moved to anti-Zionist Monsey.

I wish our people here spoke Hebrew so I could give you links to what the leading rabbis in Eretz Yisrael say about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile).

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: DownwithIslam on December 21, 2008, 08:08:21 AM
                                                                                                                                                                             בס''ד

This rabbi was born and raised in Israel, and then abandoned Israel in 1989 when he was 21 years old. He has lived in America since 1989.

What a terrible example he sets for the Jewish people! If everyone did what he did, not only would the state of Israel be destroyed, the entire Jewish people would be destroyed, G-d forbid. He left Israel to make money in the Diamond District and then moved to anti-Zionist Monsey.

I wish our people here spoke Hebrew so I could give you links to what the leading rabbis in Eretz Yisrael say about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile).



Chaim, this is exactly what I have been trying to say. I do not think that Rabbi Mizrahi is a bad person, I just think that he has made terrible mistakes, one of which was leaving the land of Israel. I mean cmon, is he saying that their are no jews in Israel who need to be brought back to judaism? I am sure the work that he does could be done in Israel and it is in fact much needed there. Chaim you didn't mention this but I believe he does a crime by bashing christians in general while he fails to point out the millions of bible believing christians who pray for Israel. Many of the young people who go to his lecture come away thinking that all the "goyim" are the enemy.

Now onto Chaimfans point about judeanoncapta and lubavitch. I know what Judeanoncaptas position is on lubavitch as he did a show awhile back and I have discussed it with him awhile ago. Of course I don't agree with him but why would I focus on what we disagree on when their is so much more we do agree on. I dont even bring up chabad to him because I would rather just discuss what we agree on and try to help this forum together.

Muman613, I don't know what Chabad calls themselves but I have spoken to enough lubavitchers to know that they are viscously against any form of land withdrawals, tons  of them live in Israel and they all totally support Israel and the jews living there. They are heavily involved in the success of the land of Israel. I think you are referring to lubavitch over a hundred years ago when they were opposed to zionism. Ever since the lstate of Israel was created, they have been zionists.

And Q_Q , sleeping or eating in a Chabad house doesn't mean anything. I wonder how many chabad people you spoke to. Did they tell you that they weren't zionists? The ones I spoke to all consider themselves zionists.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 08:16:45 AM
<snip>
And Q_Q , sleeping or eating in a Chabad house doesn't mean anything. I wonder how many chabad people you spoke to. Did they tell you that they weren't zionists? The ones I spoke to all consider themselves zionists.

maybe they figured that they couldn't reason with you so they just told you that they consider themselves zionists.. And in your mind they largely are what you consider to be a zionist. They oppose arab terrorism, they want a strong army.. e.t.c.  There are intellectual distinctions but these don't click with you, and they probably picked up on that and just gave in - for you.


i've spoken to more than a few chabad rabbis, and they've all said they are not zionists.. (still, like other non zionists, they agree with some aspects, like retaining sovereignty, and not giving away land. So they may ask what is meant by zionism)

it is not a terrible thing that they are not zionists.. 

The Jewish Tribune, a charedi paper available in britain, is anti-zionist, but they understand the arabs and oppose giving away land, and criticise the israeli government for it, criticising it from the right.

Judeanoncapta is very intelligent and well informed, and sensible and logical, and he would no doubt tell you that chabad do not consider themselves zionists..

Tzvi would tell you i'm sure. And he understands jewish concepts very well.

Pretty much any religious jew in this thread is aware of this

The anti-zionist political party , Shas, are the disaster. They are there to take what they can get.. (ok, maybe alot of groups are), but they sell the country down the river just to get money for their yeshivot.

note- I want to be clear here, that contrary to your suggestion, I have not slept in a chabad house!
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 09:53:31 AM
I won't really criticise rabbi mizrachi over it 'cos I am in galus and not making much effort to leave..

But from a purely academic perspective..

straight after the 3 oaths that charedim take literally and apply today.. It says

in tractate ketuvot 111A,  (and that page has been mentioned before)

Rab Judah stated in the name of Samuel: As it is forbidden to leave the Land of Israel for Babylon so it is forbidden to leave Babylon  for other countries. Both Rabbah and R. Joseph said: Even from Pumbeditha to Be Kubi.

One scary thing is
"R. Eleazar stated: The dead outside the Land  will not be resurrected; for it is said in Scripture, And I will set glory  in the land of the living,  [implying] the dead of the land in which I have my desire  will be resurrected, but the dead [of the land] in which I have no desire will not be resurrected."

I just checked.. apparently both the RAMBAM and the RAMBAN are buried in israel.  Maybe the RAMBAM wanted to be buried there for that reason..
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: DownwithIslam on December 21, 2008, 10:12:28 AM
<snip>
And Q_Q , sleeping or eating in a Chabad house doesn't mean anything. I wonder how many chabad people you spoke to. Did they tell you that they weren't zionists? The ones I spoke to all consider themselves zionists.

maybe they figured that they couldn't reason with you so they just told you that they consider themselves zionists.. And in your mind they largely are what you consider to be a zionist. They oppose arab terrorism, they want a strong army.. e.t.c.  There are intellectual distinctions but these don't click with you, and they probably picked up on that and just gave in - for you.


i've spoken to more than a few chabad rabbis, and they've all said they are not zionists.. (still, like other non zionists, they agree with some aspects, like retaining sovereignty, and not giving away land. So they may ask what is meant by zionism)

it is not a terrible thing that they are not zionists.. 

The Jewish Tribune, a charedi paper available in britain, is anti-zionist, but they understand the arabs and oppose giving away land, and criticise the israeli government for it, criticising it from the right.

Judeanoncapta is very intelligent and well informed, and sensible and logical, and he would no doubt tell you that chabad do not consider themselves zionists..

Tzvi would tell you i'm sure. And he understands jewish concepts very well.

Pretty much any religious jew in this thread is aware of this

The anti-zionist political party , Shas, are the disaster. They are there to take what they can get.. (ok, maybe alot of groups are), but they sell the country down the river just to get money for their yeshivot.

note- I want to be clear here, that contrary to your suggestion, I have not slept in a chabad house!

Q_Q, who do you consider to be a zionist? Are their any Rabbis who are Zionist? Is Chaim Ben Pesach a zionist. Chabad holds the same positions as chaim does when it comes to the land of israel so what are you talking about. By your definition, I am not a zionist either. Ok so forgeth the word zionist, I am happy that you at least admitted that chabad is opposed to land surrenders. I will take what I can get at this point from you.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 10:23:22 AM
Q_Q, who do you consider to be a zionist? Are their any Rabbis who are Zionist? Is Chaim Ben Pesach a zionist. Chabad holds the same positions as chaim does when it comes to the land of israel so what are you talking about. By your definition, I am not a zionist either. Ok so forgeth the word zionist, I am happy that you at least admitted that chabad is opposed to land surrenders. I will take what I can get at this point from you.

you are so unintellectual that it's only until now that you ask the question...

and having been on a religious zionist website for years you still don't know.

chaim is a religious zionist , and you are too (even though you don't know precisely what it is)

In a concise sentence, it means you believe we should have a state of israel per se, and an army per se.

Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this?  Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you. 

Tzvi understands, maybe he has it in him..and he'll get through..

The distinction is quite intellectual.. Even once you understand, I think it wouldn't matter to you at all..  .

Infact, rabbi binyamin kahane wrote that even non zionists should join with the kahanist idea of transferring the arabs.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: DownwithIslam on December 21, 2008, 10:35:49 AM
<snip>
And Q_Q , sleeping or eating in a Chabad house doesn't mean anything. I wonder how many chabad people you spoke to. Did they tell you that they weren't zionists? The ones I spoke to all consider themselves zionists.

maybe they figured that they couldn't reason with you so they just told you that they consider themselves zionists.. And in your mind they largely are what you consider to be a zionist. They oppose arab terrorism, they want a strong army.. e.t.c.  There are intellectual distinctions but these don't click with you, and they probably picked up on that and just gave in - for you.


i've spoken to more than a few chabad rabbis, and they've all said they are not zionists.. (still, like other non zionists, they agree with some aspects, like retaining sovereignty, and not giving away land. So they may ask what is meant by zionism)

it is not a terrible thing that they are not zionists.. 

The Jewish Tribune, a charedi paper available in britain, is anti-zionist, but they understand the arabs and oppose giving away land, and criticise the israeli government for it, criticising it from the right.

Judeanoncapta is very intelligent and well informed, and sensible and logical, and he would no doubt tell you that chabad do not consider themselves zionists..

Tzvi would tell you i'm sure. And he understands jewish concepts very well.

Pretty much any religious jew in this thread is aware of this

The anti-zionist political party , Shas, are the disaster. They are there to take what they can get.. (ok, maybe alot of groups are), but they sell the country down the river just to get money for their yeshivot.

note- I want to be clear here, that contrary to your suggestion, I have not slept in a chabad house!

Q_Q, who do you consider to be a zionist? Are their any Rabbis who are Zionist? Is Chaim Ben Pesach a zionist. Chabad holds the same positions as chaim does when it comes to the land of israel so what are you talking about. By your definition, I am not a zionist either. Ok so forgeth the word zionist, I am happy that you at least admitted that chabad is opposed to land surrenders. I will take what I can get at this point from you.

you are so unintellectual that it's only until now that you ask the question...

and having been on a religious zionist website for years you still don't know.

chaim is a religious zionist , and you are too (even though you don't know precisely what it is)

In a concise sentence, it means you believe we should have a state of israel per se, and an army per se.

Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this?  Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you. 

Tzvi understands, maybe he has it in him..and he'll get through..

The distinction is quite intellectual.. Even once you understand, I think it wouldn't matter to you at all..  .

Infact, rabbi binyamin kahane wrote that even non zionists should join with the kahanist idea of transferring the arabs.

BTW, Religious Anti-Zionism or religious non-zionism, is nothing like Secular anti-zionism..   The latter is anti-semitic.



Other than make a personal attack, you have said nothing. I was not asking what a zionist was, I was asking WHAT YOU THOUGH A ZIONIST WAS. Obviously you chose not to answer and that's fine. And for the record both secular anti zionism as well as religious anti zionism are both garbage. All that matters to me is that someone is in favor of a strong jewish state, that he wants the muzzies thrown out and a few other kahanist ideals. Chabad fits that bill quite well. Who you consider a zionist is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: DownwithIslam on December 21, 2008, 10:39:20 AM
Q_Q, it seems that you consider everyone other than yourself and one or two of your buddies to be unintellectual. I remember when you said mord wasn't a deep thinker a few months back. Now you repeatedly talk down to me in this thread. These comments of your are not necessary and dont contribute to a healthy forum.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 10:40:59 AM
<snip>
Other than make a personal attack, you have said nothing. I was not asking what a zionist was, I was asking WHAT YOU THOUGH A ZIONIST WAS. Obviously you chose not to answer and that's fine. And for the record both secular anti zionism as well as religious anti zionism are both garbage. All that matters to me is that someone is in favor of a strong jewish state, that he wants the muzzies thrown out and a few other kahanist ideals. Chabad fits that bill quite well. Who you consider a zionist is irrelevant.

if that's all that matters to you,  then that's all that matters to you.

So don't ask me for what "I think" a zionist is..  And if that's really what you were asking me, as if it's limited to what "I think". Then it really is a pointless question. I knew that straight away, and was smart enough to give good reasons why not to take it too seriously, which is why I gave it a one sentence answer. A good answer, but just one sentence for you.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 10:50:21 AM
Q_Q, it seems that you consider everyone other than yourself and one or two of your buddies to be unintellectual. I remember when you said mord wasn't a deep thinker a few months back. Now you repeatedly talk down to me in this thread. These comments of your are not necessary and dont contribute to a healthy forum.


There are many discussions i've had with you in the past where i've gone straight into serious discussions, and the way you responded was very very bad.. Talk about unhealthy, you were like a cancer to the forum, destroying all healthy dialogue. That was about a year ago.

At least here between us there is no really serious discussion to be destroyed by you.
Believe me, there is less havok here than in previous encounters.

Take my suggestion, and if you have a question, which I said, was an intellectual issue. I told you, i'm not the person to explain it to you. Don't ask me.  And as I very quickly unravelled, you weren't exactly asking me what a religious zionist was anyway, and the answer didn't matter to you either. Which is what I told you already long ago. 
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: DownwithIslam on December 21, 2008, 10:50:46 AM
<snip>
Other than make a personal attack, you have said nothing. I was not asking what a zionist was, I was asking WHAT YOU THOUGH A ZIONIST WAS. Obviously you chose not to answer and that's fine. And for the record both secular anti zionism as well as religious anti zionism are both garbage. All that matters to me is that someone is in favor of a strong jewish state, that he wants the muzzies thrown out and a few other kahanist ideals. Chabad fits that bill quite well. Who you consider a zionist is irrelevant.

if that's all that matters to you,  then that's all that matters to you.

So don't ask me for what "I think" a zionist is..  And if that's really what you were asking me, as if it's limited to what "I think". Then it really is a pointless question. I knew that straight away, and was smart enough to give good reasons why not to take it too seriously, which is why I gave it a one sentence answer. A good answer, but just one sentence for you.

I was curious to know what you thought a zionist was amidst the confusion. Of course you don't have to answer and that's fine. You have to stop the personal attacks though. You have a habit of calling people unitellectual and not deep thinkers when you disagree with them. That has to stop for the good of the forum. It's fine for you not to agree with me on zionism, chabad and other things but you can't turn it into a personal attack. I don't agree with many people here but I don't perpetrate personal attacks on them.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 10:57:15 AM
<snip>
I was curious to know what you thought a zionist was amidst the confusion. Of course you don't have to answer and that's fine. You have to stop the personal attacks though. You have a habit of calling people unitellectual and not deep thinkers when you disagree with them. That has to stop for the good of the forum. It's fine for you not to agree with me on zionism, chabad and other things but you can't turn it into a personal attack. I don't agree with many people here but I don't perpetrate personal attacks on them.

The answer is.. I already answered you.  I really did write the answer.. I just didn't elaborate as much as I could have, and don't intend to.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: DownwithIslam on December 21, 2008, 10:58:06 AM
Ok, just no more personal attacks. Lets forget this happened.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 11:01:42 AM
Ok, just no more personal attacks. Lets forget this happened.

ok,

but there are still certain facts you should see without just forgetting the conditions that form reality.

For whatever reasons, There are discussions that I could have with , say, KahaneBT,  that I can't have with you or muman.  You can think of it as a personality clash if you like.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: DownwithIslam on December 21, 2008, 11:03:54 AM
Ok, just no more personal attacks. Lets forget this happened.

ok,

but there are still certain facts you should see without just forgetting the conditions that form reality.

For whatever reasons, There are discussions that I could have with , say, KahaneBT,  that I can't have with you or muman.  You can think of it as a personality clash if you like.

Thats probably because he agrees with you more. The real accomplishment is to be able to hold back insults when you are dealing with people who dont agree with you on some issues. You are forgetting that we agree on many things as well.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 21, 2008, 12:20:00 PM
In all honesty Chabad is not truly Zionistic like you envision. My point is that all of Chassidus is not zionistic by our definition.
In practice they certainly are, and that is what matters much more than every facet of HaRav Schneerson's doctrine.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 21, 2008, 12:31:47 PM
There are many discussions i've had with you in the past where i've gone straight into serious discussions, and the way you responded was very very bad.. Talk about unhealthy, you were like a cancer to the forum, destroying all healthy dialogue. That was about a year ago.

At least here between us there is no really serious discussion to be destroyed by you.
Believe me, there is less havok here than in previous encounters.

Take my suggestion, and if you have a question, which I said, was an intellectual issue. I told you, i'm not the person to explain it to you. Don't ask me.  And as I very quickly unravelled, you weren't exactly asking me what a religious zionist was anyway, and the answer didn't matter to you either. Which is what I told you already long ago. 
And I recall about six months back how you posted about four pages' worth of posts of apology for the Neturei Karta (yimach schmam vezichram). Granted, DownwithIslam and I aren't great, esteemed, rational, intellectual Torah Scholars such as yourself (btw, what rabbinical school have you received your smicha from?), but that does tend to affect your credibility and rationality in the sense of the eyes of most forum members here.

But DWI asked you an extremely simple question, and the fact that you wouldn't, or couldn't, answer it leads me to question just how "scholarly" and "logical" you really are.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 21, 2008, 12:40:47 PM
There are many discussions i've had with you in the past where i've gone straight into serious discussions, and the way you responded was very very bad.. Talk about unhealthy, you were like a cancer to the forum, destroying all healthy dialogue. That was about a year ago.

At least here between us there is no really serious discussion to be destroyed by you.
Believe me, there is less havok here than in previous encounters.

Take my suggestion, and if you have a question, which I said, was an intellectual issue. I told you, i'm not the person to explain it to you. Don't ask me.  And as I very quickly unravelled, you weren't exactly asking me what a religious zionist was anyway, and the answer didn't matter to you either. Which is what I told you already long ago. 


But DWI asked you an extremely simple question, and the fact that you wouldn't, or couldn't, answer it leads me to question just how "scholarly" and "logical" you really are.

 You have no buisness in that type of discussion. And dwi gets emotional about every issue.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Zelhar on December 21, 2008, 02:08:55 PM
they said 86% of israeli Arabs are decscended from Jews. Is this true?
NO it's Rubbish. There are a few villages, mainly in Hebron and southern Judea of such descendants.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Ulli on December 21, 2008, 02:55:09 PM
they said 86% of israeli Arabs are decscended from Jews. Is this true?
NO it's Rubbish. There are a few villages, mainly in Hebron and southern Judea of such descendants.

Did they coming back to Judaism?
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 21, 2008, 03:02:26 PM
they said 86% of israeli Arabs are decscended from Jews. Is this true?
NO it's Rubbish. There are a few villages, mainly in Hebron and southern Judea of such descendants.

Did they coming back to Judaism?

No.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Zelhar on December 21, 2008, 03:04:08 PM
they said 86% of israeli Arabs are decscended from Jews. Is this true?
NO it's Rubbish. There are a few villages, mainly in Hebron and southern Judea of such descendants.

Did they coming back to Judaism?
Very, very few of them may want to return to Judaism and if so they would most likely need to undergo conversion (and of course flee from their village). There are so few such Arabs , that they are even fewer than those delusional Jews who think that 86% of the Arabs are secrete Jews and would be interested in returning to Judaism and integrating into Israel.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Ulli on December 21, 2008, 03:06:31 PM
Tzvi and Zelhar, this is sad.

They could strengthen the Jewish element in the Muslim occupied territories.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 21, 2008, 03:34:00 PM
q_q_,

Why did you mention me in such a derogatory manner. You my friend are a Baal Lashon Hara if I have ever seen one. You are a crude and ruthless egotist who has no intellect and yet wants the world to think he is some kind of scholar. I see through your thin mask of deception q_q_, I know who you are... You are nothing more than a stinking klippot of the yetzer hara. You my friend are the one who needs an extra cup of coffee.

There I times I have supported your opinion only to have you turn around and insult me. You have no right to go around insulting people. You should ask your Rav about this and I am sure he will say you are wrong. q_q has attacked virtually everyone who has disagreed with him, and even those who have agreed with him.
<snip>


PS: Maybe some other less knowledgeable people here let you slide but I have never seen an example of you using Logic or Intellect in any of your postings. You are the first one to call people names and malign them. You are not an effective debator because your only method of debate is to insult the person you debate with.

PPS: Also you always leap at chances to correct other peoples spelling and grammar and yet you make numerous postings with run-on-sentences, improper paragraphs, mis-spellings, and other errors. I have gotten so tired of watching your mangling of the English language that I have come to the  conclusion that you are really a joke when you correct other peoples errors.



Quote
you are so unintellectual that it's only until now that you ask the question...

and having been on a religious zionist website for years you still don't know.

chaim is a religious zionist , and you are too (even though you don't know precisely what it is)

In a concise sentence, it means you believe we should have a state of israel per se, and an army per se.

Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this?  Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you.

Tzvi understands, maybe he has it in him..and he'll get through..

The distinction is quite intellectual.. Even once you understand, I think it wouldn't matter to you at all..  .

Infact, rabbi binyamin kahane wrote that even non zionists should join with the kahanist idea of transferring the arabs.

A sentence should begin with a CAPITAL letter and end with a period, or other punction. "..." is not punctuation, see the reference below for what ellipses are meant for. Basically you are writing that your thoughts are just trailing off and incomplete.

Also a single sentence does not make a paragraph. You just place one 'q_q_ sentence' after another 'q_q_ sentence'. A 'q_q_' sentence is a bastardization of a english sentence through the use of a non-capital letter.

The 'paragraph' 'The distinction is quite intellectual.. Even once you understand, I think it wouldn't matter to you at all...' is not a paragraph because it doesn't even express a complete idea. You just are writing words which mean nothing.

In the 'paragraph'  'In a concise sentence, it means you believe we should have a state of israel per se, and an army per se.' you did not even accomplish your goal. You did not even give a good definition of the word. This is not a 'concise sentence' it is another q_q_ sentence which means nothing except to q_q_.


Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis
Ellipsis (plural ellipses; from Greek ἔλλειψις "omission") in printing and writing refers to a mark or series of marks that usually indicate an intentional omission of a word or a phrase from the original text. An ellipsis can also be used to indicate a pause in speech, an unfinished thought or, at the end of a sentence, a trailing off into silence (aposiopesis).


q_q, please learn how to read and write english. I think you will be able to have a logical conversation with others without resorting to insults and lashon hara.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 03:58:42 PM
muman, if you read in chassidic literature you will see some examples.

if you think i'm some kind of kabbalistic connection to the yetzer harah then you should see that i've served an important G-dly purpose in testing you, a test that you believe you have overcome. So you should be very grateful and thank hakodesh baruch hu for my existence.

ps: I often don't capitalize on forums, it requires unnecessary energy. I don't expect others too either, which is why I don't correct others for it..If however you spot a spelling error, that would be impressive.  You did -once-, and you're the only person to have done so, and credit to you for it, I respect you alot for that, but that doesn't make you logical.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 21, 2008, 04:02:35 PM
muman, if you read in chassidic literature you will see some examples.

if you think i'm some kind of kabbalistic connection to the yetzer harah then you should see that i've served an important G-dly purpose in testing you, a test that you believe you have overcome. So you should be very grateful and thank hakodesh baruch hu for my existence.

q_q_,

I have thanked you for pushing me in the proper directions. I do recognize that and am grateful.

I just wish we didn't bump into each other like this. It is painful to see you use me as an example of someone who is not involved in the core of the matter but just involved to see my own words.

I am sorry if I am hard on the grammar and spelling... I grew up in a house where my mother was an English teacher and we worked hard on spelling and grammar.

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 04:14:43 PM
muman, if you read in chassidic literature you will see some examples.

if you think i'm some kind of kabbalistic connection to the yetzer harah then you should see that i've served an important G-dly purpose in testing you, a test that you believe you have overcome. So you should be very grateful and thank hakodesh baruch hu for my existence.

q_q_,

I have thanked you for pushing me in the proper directions. I do recognize that and am grateful.

I just wish we didn't bump into each other like this. It is painful to see you use me as an example of someone who is not involved in the core of the matter but just involved to see my own words.

I am sorry if I am hard on the grammar and spelling... I grew up in a house where my mother was an English teacher and we worked hard on spelling and grammar.



AGAIN

Your spelling is a good thing.

I said that I respect you for your spelling, and more than that - regarding you being hard on spelling with me.

But you are not logical.. Infact, hence for example you apologise to me for being hard on spelling, after I told you that I respect you for it.

As I said,
"
If however you spot a spelling error, that would be impressive.  You did -once-, and you're the only person to have done so, and credit to you for it, I respect you alot for that, but that doesn't make you logical.
"

And regarding this thread.. On the issue of zionism that we were talking about, you are right, as with almost any other religious jew here. I have no idea what reasons led you to the right conclusion, i'm sure it's entirely accidental. And I never said you are not involved in the core issues.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 04:34:08 PM
they said 86% of israeli Arabs are decscended from Jews. Is this true?
NO it's Rubbish. There are a few villages, mainly in Hebron and southern Judea of such descendants.

worth saying why...

is it along the lines of

arab puts on some decent clothes , "gives himself" a hebrew name, and invites a jewish girl to a cafe.. takes her back to his place and for some reason she can't escape.   maybe she is threatened that if she leaves she'll be killed, and she is too afraid to leave.

I know that the JDL or Kach used to save these jewish girls.. they would kidnap them back! Once they have kids I guess it's a bit too late..

Walid Shoebat's mother is a western christian, and Walid actually rescued her himself!! Now she lives in America.  A sad fact, is walid(a christian in belief) said something along the lines of - his grandmother is jewish (could be maternal in which case he is jewish..  Could be paternal, in which case it's likely one of these cases of a jewish woman being taken hostage)..

There is the story about the lecha dodi arab
http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/Coming_Home_From_Ramallah.asp
I heard from rabbi mizrachi that he has around (5 or 6 + brothers I think), all terrorists. All jewish.

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 21, 2008, 04:48:50 PM
<snip>

AGAIN

Your spelling is a good thing.

I said that I respect you for your spelling, and more than that - regarding you being hard on spelling with me.

But you are not logical.. Infact, hence for example you apologise to me for being hard on spelling, after I told you that I respect you for it.

As I said,
"
If however you spot a spelling error, that would be impressive.  You did -once-, and you're the only person to have done so, and credit to you for it, I respect you alot for that, but that doesn't make you logical.
"

And regarding this thread.. On the issue of zionism that we were talking about, you are right, as with almost any other religious jew here. I have no idea what reasons led you to the right conclusion, i'm sure it's entirely accidental. And I never said you are not involved in the core issues.

Hello,
I am referring to this reference you made to me:

Quote
Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this?  Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you.

This is what makes me think you think I only want to see my own words... If I am mistaken I am sorry.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 21, 2008, 05:06:09 PM
Interfaith
dialogue?
When we see the multitudes embracing interfaith dialogue, Jewish leaders clamoring to be
granted visits with the Pope, and the pervasive, positive sentiments expressed by both Jews and
Christians, it seems ‘sacrilegious’ to argue the sustained dialogue of two former adversaries
speaking peaceably. But as students of truth and reality, popularity is not our barometer of what is
G-d’s will; rather, G-d determines that.
the Torah’s position on “Interfaith Dialogue”
Let me first clarify matters: in no way should anyone presume that I mean to create a rift
between any peoples, or that I maintain any ill feelings towards any group. We are discussing
“religions” not adherents. People come and go, so what we wish to address are the ideas
JewishTlmes
25
r e t r o s p e c t i v e
themselves, the principles behind religions. Life is about searching for truth, even if it opposes
common beliefs. Additionally, as G-d created all men and women, we must duplicate G-d’s
kindness to all peoples. The greatest kindness is educating another person, and the greatest harm,
is to conceal the truth.
That being said, let us first determine our term “Interfaith Dialogue.” It refers to a forum in
which Jews and Christians seek to solidify friendships and remove strife; mutually accepting each
other’s practices and beliefs. However, we must ask, “Are their views accurate? Are Jews accurately
presenting Judaism to the Christians? Is the very presence of a Jew at such a dialogue
contradictory to Judaism? Is such a forum G-d’s will? Did G-d’s appointed Hebrew forefather
Abraham, engage in such dialogue, or did he in fact debate with other religions? Did not G-d
actually appoint Abraham as a leader ‘because’ of his very opposition to religions and idolatry,
creating a people who would follow Abraham’s way? This is expressly stated in Genesis, 18:19:
“For I know (him) that he will command his children and his household after him and they
will keep the way of G-d to do charity and justice.”
It is clear: Abraham led a distinct lifestyle, precisely defined as opposing idolatry, and teaching
against it. This is exactly why G-d chose Abraham and created a nation from him, “For they will
keep the way of G-d.” This means that Abraham partook of G-d’s way, while no one else did.
G-d approved of Abraham’s opposition to idolatry, and education of monotheism, as He says,
“For I know (him) that he will command his children and his household after him”.
Interfaith ‘Debate’
Abraham spent many years pondering the universe, arriving at profound ideas of philosophy,
science, monotheism, morality and justice. Since Abraham followed what G-d’s original plan was
for man, a life in pursuit of truth, G-d desired that the rest of the world benefit from Abraham’s
findings, and Abraham’s method of using reason to determine which religious ideas are true,
which are false, and to teach others of their error for their ultimate good. Therefore, G-d selected
Abraham to become a leader of a nation, a nation that would be provided with a system (the
Torah) for guiding man towards these truths. This Torah is not just for Jews, but all mankind. In
other words, G-d selected Abraham to establish and proliferate the Judaic system - one of
monotheism, which denounces idolatry, for the goodness of all humanity. Abraham did not
engage in interfaith dialogue, but in interfaith debate and education. Furthermore, Christianity
plagiarizes Judaism. We have no need for misinterpretations of the book, which we possess in its
uncorrupted, original form.

 http://www.mesora.org/retro.pdf (p 24). (not that I necessarily agree with that site).
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 06:33:16 PM
Tzvi,
contrary to that mesora link you copy/pasted from
which said-
Quote
 
(your mesora website link)
"That being said, let us first determine our term 'Interfaith Dialogue.' It refers to a forum in
which Jews and Christians seek to solidify friendships and remove strife; mutually accepting each
other’s practices and beliefs....   Abraham did not
engage in interfaith dialogue, but in interfaith debate and education.

"

JTF is not about "presenting judaism to christians"

Infact, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein ztl (who was widely considered to be the leading posek of the generation), a rabbi's rabbi, even The rabbi's rabbi's rabbi! The number 1 rabbi!

He had a very strict position on interfaith dialogue...
it was either banning it completely, or saying we can just work together socially.

he certainly didn't do debates.. and probably didn't even mention it because it's just not something jews do in our times, nor something jews have done in recent memory going back hundreds of years, it's not even a question.

And an interesting fact, is that in rabbi moshe feinstein's responsa, is a question from rabbi kahane , from when he was rabbi in a shul and a congregant had a wooden leg, and there was a technical question rabbi kahane asked him.  It's mentioned in the vol 1 biography

You know what..

I am absolutely sick of this tzvi..

You constantly do this and i'e repeated myself enough times to you.

How many times do you have ot be told that we don't try to convert christians out of christianity..

I don't even know if you can read all of what you copy/paste..

You aren't let off the hook by copy/pasting a chunk and saying that it isn't necessarily your opinion.   OVER and OVER again you have demonstrated that it is..  (just each time , more covertly)

You don't learn, you are intentionally obtuse.  JTF does not try to get christians to leave christianity.

Say it..  SAY IT

you have to understand it eventually. you've been told enough times.

I don't even want to bother correcting you over this. I'm sick of it.. You never learn..
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 06:59:50 PM
<snip>

AGAIN

Your spelling is a good thing.

I said that I respect you for your spelling, and more than that - regarding you being hard on spelling with me.

But you are not logical.. Infact, hence for example you apologise to me for being hard on spelling, after I told you that I respect you for it.

As I said,
"
If however you spot a spelling error, that would be impressive.  You did -once-, and you're the only person to have done so, and credit to you for it, I respect you alot for that, but that doesn't make you logical.
"

And regarding this thread.. On the issue of zionism that we were talking about, you are right, as with almost any other religious jew here. I have no idea what reasons led you to the right conclusion, i'm sure it's entirely accidental. And I never said you are not involved in the core issues.

Hello,
I am referring to this reference you made to me:

Quote
Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this?  Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you.

This is what makes me think you think I only want to see my own words... If I am mistaken I am sorry.


Muman, you were of course mistaken.. You certainly enjoy dialogue about aspects of judaism, it was that enjoyment that I was referring to.  Not you seeing your own words and enjoying that. Infact I think you don't enjoy your own words that much..
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 21, 2008, 08:49:15 PM
You have no buisness in that type of discussion. And dwi gets emotional about every issue.
Wow, you really put me in my place. Sorry I didn't realize that only Torah giants like yourself and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef have the right to talk about such lofty, incomprehensible issues such as what the definition of Zionist is.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 21, 2008, 08:50:34 PM
q_q_,

Why did you mention me in such a derogatory manner. You my friend are a Baal Lashon Hara if I have ever seen one. You are a crude and ruthless egotist who has no intellect and yet wants the world to think he is some kind of scholar. I see through your thin mask of deception q_q_, I know who you are... You are nothing more than a stinking klippot of the yetzer hara. You my friend are the one who needs an extra cup of coffee.versation with others without resorting to insults and lashon hara.
Muman, don't raise your blood pressure over this Neturei Karta defender. He is so not worth the time.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 21, 2008, 08:59:24 PM
You have no buisness in that type of discussion. And dwi gets emotional about every issue.
Wow, you really put me in my place. Sorry I didn't realize that only Torah giants like yourself and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef have the right to talk about such lofty, incomprehensible issues such as what the definition of Zionist is.

 Thank you. That is what I am trying to tell you all of this time. I'm glad you finally understand.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 09:33:33 PM
You have no buisness in that type of discussion. And dwi gets emotional about every issue.
Wow, you really put me in my place. Sorry I didn't realize that only Torah giants like yourself and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef have the right to talk about such lofty, incomprehensible issues such as what the definition of Zionist is.

Not quite CF, but if that's what you think, then that would be quite helpful as a closure to the wound that is your understanding.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 22, 2008, 06:22:10 PM
Not quite CF, but if that's what you think, then that would be quite helpful as a closure to the wound that is your understanding.
That was a beautifully coherent sentence. Not.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 23, 2008, 04:42:35 PM
Why doesn't he bash islam? - He does disprove it also (easily), but like he said, he doesn't need and doesn't want to talk too harshly agains't islam because 1- Its not really popular for Jews to convert to it, and 2- he feels their is no need to needlessly put himself in danger because they are fanatics who kill people that speak harsh words agains't them. Christians on the other hand wont harm him, so he speaks his mind freely agains't that religion (which in a way is a complement becuase at least things can openly be said, as opposed to Islam whom you cant have open dialogue without being afraid of getting killed- like it used to be with the christians in europe).

I don't think that fear of Islamic fanatics should be taken into account.

Maimonides bashed Muhammad and Islam while living as a dhimmi under the Islamic Califate. If he wasn't afraid, neither should Rabbi Mizrahi be afraid.

 Rambam wrote in a private letter sent to the Jews of Yemen about Islam. The liklyhood of someone reading it was slim.

Actually, the Rambam had to flee Morrocco because the Muslims did get ahold of that letter.

So the likelyhood of someone reading it was more than slim, obviously.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 23, 2008, 04:50:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                             בס''ד

This rabbi was born and raised in Israel, and then abandoned Israel in 1989 when he was 21 years old. He has lived in America since 1989.

What a terrible example he sets for the Jewish people! If everyone did what he did, not only would the state of Israel be destroyed, the entire Jewish people would be destroyed, G-d forbid. He left Israel to make money in the Diamond District and then moved to anti-Zionist Monsey.

I wish our people here spoke Hebrew so I could give you links to what the leading rabbis in Eretz Yisrael say about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile).



Thank you, Chayim.

Very true. Although you don't need today's rabbis to tell you about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile). It's in the Mishna, the Talmudh, Maimonides, Nachmanides and pretty much every Halakhic work in existence that discussed the issue.

I say this not to diminish such rabbis today, only because certain Haredim today take the gedolim theory to such an extreme that they think that primary sources are worthless and the only thing one needs to do is ask the gedolim. And if the gedolim say that it's ok to take money for yeshivoth and vote for the Gush Katif Expulsion, then that is fine. I bet they would eat pork if Rav Elyashiv or Ovadia Yosef said it was ok.

And eating pork is a MUCH LESS SERIOUS sin that telling your Knesset members to take BRIBERY in order to vote for the Gush Katif Expulsion.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 23, 2008, 05:06:29 PM
<snip>
Q_Q, I know that JudeaNoncapta doesn't like Chabad, <snip>

just to be clear, I didn't say that.

I said that his argument about a third of the torah any time ,applies to them and most orthodox jews in the world....


Very true. I don't disagree.

There is no such thing as authentic Torah in the Galuth.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: judeanoncapta on December 23, 2008, 05:12:40 PM
I won't really criticise rabbi mizrachi over it 'cos I am in galus and not making much effort to leave..

But from a purely academic perspective..

straight after the 3 oaths that charedim take literally and apply today.. It says

in tractate ketuvot 111A,  (and that page has been mentioned before)

Rab Judah stated in the name of Samuel: As it is forbidden to leave the Land of Israel for Babylon so it is forbidden to leave Babylon  for other countries. Both Rabbah and R. Joseph said: Even from Pumbeditha to Be Kubi.


It is interesting that while Maimonides takes the statement about not leaving Israel as a halakhic statement and includes it in the Mishne Torah, the three oaths which say Jews should stay in Exile he does NOT take as a halakhic statement and does NOT include in the Mishne Torah.

Just an interesting contrast.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 23, 2008, 05:22:45 PM
I won't really criticise rabbi mizrachi over it 'cos I am in galus and not making much effort to leave..

But from a purely academic perspective..

straight after the 3 oaths that charedim take literally and apply today.. It says

in tractate ketuvot 111A,  (and that page has been mentioned before)

Rab Judah stated in the name of Samuel: As it is forbidden to leave the Land of Israel for Babylon so it is forbidden to leave Babylon  for other countries. Both Rabbah and R. Joseph said: Even from Pumbeditha to Be Kubi.


It is interesting that while Maimonides takes the statement about not leaving Israel as a halakhic statement and includes it in the Mishne Torah, the three oaths which say Jews should stay in Exile he does NOT take as a halakhic statement and does NOT include in the Mishne Torah.

Just an interesting contrast.

There is a significant difference though in how the gemara introduces them.

The 3 oaths - verav..

I don't have a gemara at hand right now but I suspect that it doesn't say verav for the other statement.

I have heard that when the gemara says verav, it doesn't mean the rabbi himself said.. it may be the students having some kind of discussion on what their rabbi would say.   I asked the person for a source, he said he heard it in a multi-part shiur about the 3 oaths at a chabad place. 

I heard the same thing about verav, from an/the unreliable maimonidean.. so 2 completely different independent sources, there is probably something in it. But no 1st hand source about verav.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 24, 2008, 02:05:30 AM
There is a significant difference though in how the gemara introduces them.

The 3 oaths - verav..

I don't have a gemara at hand right now but I suspect that it doesn't say verav for the other statement.

I have heard that when the gemara says verav, it doesn't mean the rabbi himself said.. it may be the students having some kind of discussion on what their rabbi would say.   I asked the person for a source, he said he heard it in a multi-part shiur about the 3 oaths at a chabad place.
Don't you have a Neturei Karta rally to get ready for?

The Song of Songs of King Shlomo, in the Tanach, is about G-d celebrating, and encouraging, marital love and pleasure in the context of the marriage of Shlomo and the love of his life (the woman who is sunburnt because her brothers have forced her to toil away in the sun). But, being sexually frustrated (I assume, judging from your absurd responses in the Duggars thread), that is abhorrent to you, so you must rip it apart.

Only a brilliant "Torah scholar" such as yourself, or your gd "Rabbi" Teitelbaum, could construe such a beautiful book of Holy Scripture to be a manifesto for the destruction of Israel.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 24, 2008, 02:31:28 AM
There is a significant difference though in how the gemara introduces them.

The 3 oaths - verav..

I don't have a gemara at hand right now but I suspect that it doesn't say verav for the other statement.

I have heard that when the gemara says verav, it doesn't mean the rabbi himself said.. it may be the students having some kind of discussion on what their rabbi would say.   I asked the person for a source, he said he heard it in a multi-part shiur about the 3 oaths at a chabad place.
Don't you have a Neturei Karta rally to get ready for?

The Song of Songs of King Shlomo, in the Tanach, is about G-d celebrating, and encouraging, marital love and pleasure in the context of the marriage of Shlomo and the love of his life (the woman who is sunburnt because her brothers have forced her to toil away in the sun). But, being sexually frustrated (I assume, judging from your absurd responses in the Duggars thread), that is abhorrent to you, so you must rip it apart.

Only a brilliant "Torah scholar" such as yourself, or your gd "Rabbi" Teitelbaum, could construe such a beautiful book of Holy Scripture to be a manifesto for the destruction of Israel.

You quoted me.
And made your comment.

Explain how what you just quoted is Pro Neturei Karta or even Pro Satmar

Infact, explain it in your own words. 

You can't and won't, because it would give away that you don't understand a word of what you quoted me saying.  You are not even jewish and this is a discussion about a passage from the talmud.

You of course once said that certain jews like me and you mentioned tzvi too, believe in jewish supremacy.. I suspect that you read that on some nazi anti talmud site. No other place makes such an allegation.

You mention another thread "Duggars thread".   I will provide you the link.
Nothing there is anything to do with satmar.
So if you are honest
Make your allegation in that thread
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,29664.0.html
and we will discuss it.
Are you Willing to do that?


Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 24, 2008, 03:17:46 AM
The idea that Tzvi and I believe we are part of a "master race"

That idea has to be from nazi style websites.. that jews think of themselves as a master race..  You CF just apply it to me. But that's where the idea comes from. Nazi websites.

I don't mean nazi as in everybody you call nazi.. You  or DWI compare the satmar rebbe to Hitler.    I mean, real nazis whom you learnt the expression from.   

 how an old earth does not contradict the torah, and even has some support
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,23193.msg249606/topicseen.html#msg249606

qq
I(qq) bring up that CF has told jews like Tzvi and myself, that we think we are a master race.


DWI-
QQ, leave tzvi out of this. We are adressing you now. Dont Lump tzvi into this. I deal with tzvi seperately. Chaimfan did refer to your ideaology as the master race. He was not referring to judaism, as you qq are not jewish. You are basicly a muslim. Chaimfan was not referring to judaism as you QQQQQ, are already chayiv kares.



http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,23330.msg249574.html#msg249574
thread: my response to q_q_
C.F.  July 13, 2008, 11:56:30 PM (this was to Tzvi)
Listen, genius, I know you think I am untermensch, but just because I am not part of your master race doesn't make me an idiot.

This was to me, but applying this master race thing to Tzvi and myself. (he obviously thinks booba is an insult, I guess any word from a foreign language for him is an insult, rude words are the parts of foreign languages that little kids love to learn. Rather worrying really, but anyhow.. More importantly.. here is what he said.)
C.F.
The only booba around here is you, genius. I notice you didn't deny anything I said. The .005% of Jews who think like you obviously consider yourselves a master race. Thanks for once again proving me right, and destroying your own credibility!

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 24, 2008, 07:15:46 AM
                                                                                                                                                                             בס''ד

This rabbi was born and raised in Israel, and then abandoned Israel in 1989 when he was 21 years old. He has lived in America since 1989.

What a terrible example he sets for the Jewish people! If everyone did what he did, not only would the state of Israel be destroyed, the entire Jewish people would be destroyed, G-d forbid. He left Israel to make money in the Diamond District and then moved to anti-Zionist Monsey.

I wish our people here spoke Hebrew so I could give you links to what the leading rabbis in Eretz Yisrael say about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile).



Thank you, Chayim.

Very true. Although you don't need today's rabbis to tell you about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile). It's in the Mishna, the Talmudh, Maimonides, Nachmanides and pretty much every Halakhic work in existence that discussed the issue.

From what I understand, Rabbi Mizrachi wasn't even religious at that point!   And second of all, the halacha is not that you cannot leave Eretz Yisrael under any circumstances.   You shouldn't, as a general rule, but for certain things you are allowed to leave by halacha.   Teaching Torah is actually one of the things that it is permitted for, and so is saving Jews from the goyim, which in America, means saving Jews from complete assimilation and complete excision from the Jewish people....   I don't agree with everything Rabbi Mizrachi says and does, but certainly he is trying to do that.    I am strongly opposed to his site however, for its refusal to host any Kahanist Torah material.   But let's not conflate the issues.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 24, 2008, 11:00:16 AM
                                                                                                                                                                             בס''ד

This rabbi was born and raised in Israel, and then abandoned Israel in 1989 when he was 21 years old. He has lived in America since 1989.

What a terrible example he sets for the Jewish people! If everyone did what he did, not only would the state of Israel be destroyed, the entire Jewish people would be destroyed, G-d forbid. He left Israel to make money in the Diamond District and then moved to anti-Zionist Monsey.

I wish our people here spoke Hebrew so I could give you links to what the leading rabbis in Eretz Yisrael say about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile).



Thank you, Chayim.

Very true. Although you don't need today's rabbis to tell you about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile). It's in the Mishna, the Talmudh, Maimonides, Nachmanides and pretty much every Halakhic work in existence that discussed the issue.

From what I understand, Rabbi Mizrachi wasn't even religious at that point!   And second of all, the halacha is not that you cannot leave Eretz Yisrael under any circumstances.   You shouldn't, as a general rule, but for certain things you are allowed to leave by halacha.   Teaching Torah is actually one of the things that it is permitted for, and so is saving Jews from the goyim, which in America, means saving Jews from complete assimilation and complete excision from the Jewish people....   I don't agree with everything Rabbi Mizrachi says and does, but certainly he is trying to do that.    I am strongly opposed to his site however, for its refusal to host any Kahanist Torah material.   But let's not conflate the issues.

 And on top of that like I said, someone could have asked him and then maybe debate his answer. Some people here have just slandered him and tried to turn Jews away from learning from him. That is unforgivable. We are warned that one who insults another publicly can have no Olam Haba. How much more soo when we see that Talmidei Hachamim are slandered and ridiculed (and not only their opinion, which okay their is room to argue agains't, but actually going after them personally). If someone here really cared they would have emailed him and ask him about his personal choice and why.
 - And I hope that people aren't stupid enough to continue adding more wood to the fire and conflating their insults, thus putting themselves into a deeper hole (for their sakes).
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 25, 2008, 11:37:20 PM
I agree with Tzvi and KWRBT that we should not be speaking like this against Rabbi Mizrachi. I really think he is doing the Jewish people a service by teaching Torah here. It is obvious that much slander has been spoken here and it is very upsetting. We must work to bring all Jews together to achieve what Hashem wants us to in this world. We all know the Chochma which relates the effects of Sinat Chinam. I see this going on almost daily here at JTF and I really hope that we agree that we can disagree without the baseless hatred.

The Baal Teshuva is in a difficult position because the FFB will always feel superior. But in truth we know what the accomplishments of the true Teshuva doer merit in Hashems eyes. My request from Jews of all levels is to recognize the neshamah of his fellow and reach out to bring him closer.

 
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 31, 2008, 03:38:29 PM
<snip>
The Baal Teshuva is in a difficult position because the FFB will always feel superior. <snip>

This is not true at all.

That will likely be your experience, but that's from your own failings.

I don't think many FFBs will feel superior to rabbi mizrachi.

You know you've actually turned what was a fairly intelligent - though perhaps slightly offensive - discussion into some kind of psychological nonsense.   It was really a specific action of leaving israel that was addressed, and can be talked about sensibly(by sensible people as many here have done).

You've just tried to divert the discussion by removing all useful content from it.   Everybody else dealt with the issues - while some said it was offensive, they still dealt with the issues.

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on December 31, 2008, 03:43:18 PM
"I don't think many BTs will feel superior to rabbi mizrachi. "

 As a side note -Rabbi Mizrachi himself is a Baal Tishuva.

Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 31, 2008, 03:52:39 PM
"I don't think many BTs will feel superior to rabbi mizrachi. "

 As a side note -Rabbi Mizrachi himself is a Baal Tishuva.



my mistake, I meant to say I don't think many FFBs will feel superior to Rabbi Mizrachi.  (it was in response to muman's comment)

though indeed, I don't think many BTs will either!

I just corrected my post.
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: muman613 on December 31, 2008, 07:40:41 PM
"I don't think many BTs will feel superior to rabbi mizrachi. "

 As a side note -Rabbi Mizrachi himself is a Baal Tishuva.



my mistake, I meant to say I don't think many FFBs will feel superior to Rabbi Mizrachi.  (it was in response to muman's comment)

though indeed, I don't think many BTs will either!

I just corrected my post.

You q_q_ prove my point daily here. Just keep it up :)
Title: Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Post by: q_q_ on December 31, 2008, 08:28:07 PM
"I don't think many BTs will feel superior to rabbi mizrachi. "

 As a side note -Rabbi Mizrachi himself is a Baal Tishuva.



my mistake, I meant to say I don't think many FFBs will feel superior to Rabbi Mizrachi.  (it was in response to muman's comment)

though indeed, I don't think many BTs will either!

I just corrected my post.

You q_q_ prove my point daily here. Just keep it up :)


I told you, a FFB may feel superior to you, but not superior to Rabbi Mizrachi.

So, your point that FFBs will always feel superior to BTs is simply not true.