JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Merkava on November 27, 2007, 01:24:44 PM
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When you meet a fellow Jew what quality do you think its more important for them to have:
A strong sense of Zionism and loyalty towards Israel ?
or
A strict following of the Torah and its teachings?
Two distinct things... Just want to hear your thoughts on this matter.
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If one truly has the latter, then one has the former.
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Not really. I am not very observant myself and I only go to the synagogue in high holidyas but I would give up my life defending Israel if I had to.
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Not really. I am not very observant myself and I only go to the synagogue in high holidyas but I would give up my life defending Israel if I had to.
Please re-read what I wrote. You don't HAVE to possess the latter to possess the former. However, if one TRULY has the latter, then one has the former.
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When you meet a fellow Jew what quality do you think its more important for them to have:
A strong sense of Zionism and loyalty towards Israel ?
or
A strict following of the Torah and its teachings?
Two distinct things... Just want to hear your thoughts on this matter.
I either try not to distinct the two or try to put it in four groups instead of two:
1. Secular non Zionist: The worst kind unless misguided and impressionable
2. Secular Zionists: Include people less religious than me, but love Israel has being a Jewish country. I think i have the most in common with these Jews...and the best ones are the ones who love all righteous Jews and love Torah even though they might not practice halakha to the same extent as religious Jews. The ones I'm not a fan of are anti-Torah Zionists...They try to be like other nations and try to lose the Jewish identity. We have to watch out for those.
3. Religious non-Zionists: I respect them because they are my brethren, but I disagree with them on their point of view of Israel.
4. Religious Zionists: This is what JTF wants and these, in my opinion, are the most courageous Jews. I think these are the majority of Israeli Jews and possibly world Jewry. I would say the secular zionists are a close second and religious non-zionists not far behind.
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Zionism, the idea that Jews should have a state in the Land of Israel is as much a part of the Torah as Tzitzith or tefilin.
Since they are not two distinct things,the question is moot.
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Zionism, the idea that Jews should have a state in the Land of Israel is as much a part of the Torah as Tzitzith or tefilin.
Since they are not two distinct things,the question is moot.
Do you mean debatable?
I either try not to distinct the two or try to put it in four groups instead of two:
1. Secular non Zionist: The worst kind unless misguided and impressionable
2. Secular Zionists: Include people less religious than me, but love Israel has being a Jewish country. I think i have the most in common with these Jews...and the best ones are the ones who love all righteous Jews and love Torah even though they might not practice halakha to the same extent as religious Jews. The ones I'm not a fan of are anti-Torah Zionists...They try to be like other nations and try to lose the Jewish identity. We have to watch out for those.
3. Religious non-Zionists: I respect them because they are my brethren, but I disagree with them on their point of view of Israel.
4. Religious Zionists: This is what JTF wants and these, in my opinion, are the most courageous Jews. I think these are the majority of Israeli Jews and possibly world Jewry. I would say the secular zionists are a close second and religious non-zionists not far behind.
I think Danny has hit it right in the spot....My distinction was a bit vague.
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Zionism, the idea that Jews should have a state in the Land of Israel is as much a part of the Torah as Tzitzith or tefilin.
Since they are not two distinct things,the question is moot.
Do you mean debatable?
No i mean the question assumes the two are mutually exclusive. They are not.
Therefore the question is worthless.
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A Religious Jew, is a Zionist. You can still be a religious person, without being a zionist. Rabbi Kahane woud say " I have more I have more in common then the Satmars, then the secular zionists".
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They SHOULD be one in the same.
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There can only be a sense of Torah with the land of Israel. I don't consider the Satanmars Jewish because they go against the Torah by committing crimes against G-d's holy land.
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I agree completely with TBOT. The Satmars/Neturei Karta scum are called by the Bible to be Amalek. This is because they are backstabbers who have declared war on their fellow Jews. Chaim would tell you there is no difference between these demons and the Germans.
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Option #2.
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Satmers didnt declare war on Jews. They do hate the state for obvious reasons and becuase of what the state has done to Jews. I dont fully agree/understand what they say, but I belive that they are allways targeted the most since they are totally independent of the state and dont recive bribe $, which lets them say whatever they want and which furthur infururates the Hellinists.
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they go against the Torah by committing crimes against G-d's holy land.
Thier was a time when I hated them myself (for no real reason, but because I was brainwashed), but HOW are they going against the Holy Land ? They dont like the state and the secular regime, and they hold from an opinion in the Talmud that we shouldnt have a state before Moshiah. (maybe not majority opinion but still an opinion- listin to Rav Bar Haim's shiur on this and bringing the opinions).
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When you meet a fellow Jew what quality do you think its more important for them to have:
A strong sense of Zionism and loyalty towards Israel ?
or
A strict following of the Torah and its teachings?
Two distinct things... Just want to hear your thoughts on this matter.
The two are not distinct and if we allow them to be divided then we have let the Left and Arabs win. Those who hold signs saying "Zionism is Racism", are pure anti-semites who are simply covering it up. If you are a good Jew, then you are a Good Zionist, and if you are a Zionist you are at least a decent Jew. In the 60's and 70's the JDL wasnt saving Jews that had Tzitzit, they were saving more of the secular Zionist type Jews, who love everything Jewish, but don't know everything.
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Zionism by nature is a big part of Torah Judaism. The first Zionists were Moses et al... So for a religious Jew to not be a Zionist whether it is to support the current state of Israel or support a future state of Israel would just be plain nuts. And by nuts I dont' mean cashews or Persian Pistachios.
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I am more radical and simply hate the Religious non Zionist Jews since they are heretics who are ruining our religion and uprooting the Torah. I am not talking about those who are simply against the secular state as most of us want a religious one, but those who think that Israel can't be settled before the Massiah and those who believe in giving up the land to the Arabs for peace. I know these people and their Rabbis and there are very few who are simply great Torah observing Jews who's only sin is being against the State as Tzvi thinks. There is a entire belief system that most these people believe in which I could go on for pages talking about that is very dangerous to Judaism and is harming us. They contradict the Torah blatantly and disguise their lies by saying "my Rebbe said it" and they make up insane interpretations of obvious verses plus they blatantly tell you that your traditions are nonsense and only they know the right path. In my opinion, 90% of the things wrong with the religious Charedim and Chassidim stem from this kind of belief system.
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theirs 2 ways or definitions of Zionism - one is Jews settling and repopulating the land of Israel, and the second is the political movement (which isnt clear of support)
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I am more radical and simply hate the Religious non Zionist Jews since they are heretics who are ruining our religion and uprooting the Torah. I am not talking about those who are simply against the secular state as most of us want a religious one, but those who think that Israel can't be settled before the Massiah and those who believe in giving up the land to the Arabs for peace. I know these people and their Rabbis and there are very few who are simply great Torah observing Jews who's only sin is being against the State as Tzvi thinks. There is a entire belief system that most these people believe in which I could go on for pages talking about that is very dangerous to Judaism and is harming us. They contradict the Torah blatantly and disguise their lies by saying "my Rebbe said it" and they make up insane interpretations of obvious verses plus they blatantly tell you that your traditions are nonsense and only they know the right path. In my opinion, 90% of the things wrong with the religious Charedim and Chassidim stem from this kind of belief system.
Truer words were never spoken.
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theirs 2 ways or definitions of Zionism - one is Jews settling and repopulating the land of Israel, and the second is the political movement (which isnt clear of support)
That's insane.
Repopulating the land without creating a state ensures the repopulation to be VERY short-lived because the Arabs would of course expell or slaughter all Jews.
Don't be a fool, Tsvi.
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The second option. But one who has the second has the first, and one who has the first has the second. And, I certainly like the Satmar (who happen to have certain halachic opinions that I disagree with) a hundred times more than Secular "Zionists."
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I dont know everything and I dont claim to, but right now what im thinking is, how could we have supported the political aspect of zionism and contine to support it, after all the crimes it has and does do. For example many of us woke up after gush katif and amona, but much earlier then that it was involved with even bigger crimes of spreading heresy into the Jewish nation (hellinism + haskallah+ the media and education system), they have done many other crimes both physical and spiritual and as a Religious G-d fearing person how can one support a movement that slaughtered(s) Jews spiritually? I personally would rather see my children slaughtered by hitler as a rightious Jew, then become a hellinist, but still alive in this world.
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I dont know everything and I dont claim to, but right now what im thinking is, how could we have supported the political aspect of zionism and contine to support it, after all the crimes it has and does do. For example many of us woke up after gush katif and amona, but much earlier then that it was involved with even bigger crimes of spreading heresy into the Jewish nation (hellinism + haskallah+ the media and education system), they have done many other crimes both physical and spiritual and as a Religious G-d fearing person how can one support a movement that slaughtered(s) Jews spiritually? I personally would rather see my children slaughtered by hitler as a rightious Jew, then become a hellinist, but still alive in this world.
We support it because having a Jewish Israel is a safe haven for the Jews so another Holocost doesn't happen and it is doing what the Torah commands. As for Amona, 90% of the Charedim learn all day in Yeshiva in Israel. If they all would have left the Yeshiva and took a trip to Amona to defend it then we would have taken over. I don't blame the working class Jews because they would have risked their job by going to prison for a few days. I blame my fellow religious Jews more than I blame the hellonists, they simply see our weakness and take advantage of it.
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I dont know everything and I dont claim to, but right now what im thinking is, how could we have supported the political aspect of zionism and contine to support it, after all the crimes it has and does do. For example many of us woke up after gush katif and amona, but much earlier then that it was involved with even bigger crimes of spreading heresy into the Jewish nation (hellinism + haskallah+ the media and education system), they have done many other crimes both physical and spiritual and as a Religious G-d fearing person how can one support a movement that slaughtered(s) Jews spiritually? I personally would rather see my children slaughtered by hitler as a rightious Jew, then become a hellinist, but still alive in this world.
We support it because having a Jewish Israel is a safe haven for the Jews so another Holocost doesn't happen and it is doing what the Torah commands. As for Amona, 90% of the Charedim learn all day in Yeshiva in Israel. If they all would have left the Yeshiva and took a trip to Amona to defend it then we would have taken over. I don't blame the working class Jews because they would have risked their job by going to prison for a few days. I blame my fellow religious Jews more than I blame the hellonists, they simply see our weakness and take advantage of it.
So going to work is more important than learning in Yeshiva? Im sorry but your hatred of Haredim and blaming them for everything is complete sinat hinam. Anyway at amona were younge people. For an adult to get invloved in that level wouldnt be smart on the indiviudal basis, but their needs to be something much bigger including a large part of society to create a bigger revolution.
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I dont know everything and I dont claim to, but right now what im thinking is, how could we have supported the political aspect of zionism and contine to support it, after all the crimes it has and does do. For example many of us woke up after gush katif and amona, but much earlier then that it was involved with even bigger crimes of spreading heresy into the Jewish nation (hellinism + haskallah+ the media and education system), they have done many other crimes both physical and spiritual and as a Religious G-d fearing person how can one support a movement that slaughtered(s) Jews spiritually? I personally would rather see my children slaughtered by hitler as a rightious Jew, then become a hellinist, but still alive in this world.
We support it because having a Jewish Israel is a safe haven for the Jews so another Holocost doesn't happen and it is doing what the Torah commands. As for Amona, 90% of the Charedim learn all day in Yeshiva in Israel. If they all would have left the Yeshiva and took a trip to Amona to defend it then we would have taken over. I don't blame the working class Jews because they would have risked their job by going to prison for a few days. I blame my fellow religious Jews more than I blame the hellonists, they simply see our weakness and take advantage of it.
(Not that im against having A state), but its not necissarily safe in Israel for Jews right now either, and the way things are going it wont be that much safe for Jews in the near future either (both in and outside the state and land of Israel). Creating a Jewish society should be for Kiddush Hashem and creating a G-dly socity in my opinion and not the opposite.
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If someone from Yeshivah gets arrested for a week or two and released but bothered with some court dates he would be at very little loss compared to someone who is working and therefore loses their occupation over it since the learner can just go back and learn but the one who works may never find another occupation and his family may starve. Since you think that learners are on a higher status than those who work and understand the Torah more, they should be the ones setting the example. Listen, saying that Cheredim sinned when they did sin is not "hating Charedim". Non-Charedim sin too sometimes and if you point such instances out that is fine. Don't play the denial game, we're supposed to tell people when they sin so that they may correct themselves.
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Tzvi, Chaim says the Haredim need to go to work. He addressed the Gur once on Ask JTF.
Also, the Satmar/NK are NOT merely "opposed to the current regime". They hate Zionism no matter what, and indeed they sincerely believe that Israel is Arab/Muslim land. They even make trips to Iran to stand in solidarity with Ahmadinejad.
These people aren't Jews--they are rodefs.
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Well, in my grandparent's town in Europe 100% of the Jews living in the town were religious but that didn't save them from the Holocaust. So perhaps G-d wants us Jews to do what the Torah says and settle Israel and perhaps we'd have a better outcome. If it takes 200 years for it to become not run by the secular than it is still worth it compared to the alternative.
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Oh, and the Satmur "Rebbe" was the Rabbi of my grandmother and great grandparent's town and he told the million or so Jews in Hungary that Zionism was evil and they should stay in Europe. Well my great grandparents died and so should have the Satmur "Rebbe" paid for his mistake.
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Well, in my grandparent's town in Europe 100% of the Jews living in the town were religious but that didn't save them from the Holocaust. So perhaps G-d wants us Jews to do what the Torah says and settle Israel and perhaps we'd have a better outcome. If it takes 200 years for it to become not run by the secular than it is still worth it compared to the alternative.
The problem is that by nature most religious Jews in WWII were very, very nice, sweet people who believed in, to use a Christian catchphrase, "turning the other cheek". Nobody listened to Ze'ev Jabotinsky (zt"l). They didn't believe in using violence or rising up against the government even when their lives were obviously at stake. They wanted to be obedient citizens to their (Axis-allied) nations and "win over" the anti-Semites that way. Of course, we know where that got them. :'(
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I agree completely with TBOT. The Satmars/Neturei Karta scum are called by the Bible to be Amalek. This is because they are backstabbers who have declared war on their fellow Jews. Chaim would tell you there is no difference between these demons and the Germans.
But Rabbi Kahane would call the Satmar Rebbe a Tzaddik. There is a difference between the NK and the Satmars.
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What Rabbi?
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I agree completely with TBOT. The Satmars/Neturei Karta scum are called by the Bible to be Amalek. This is because they are backstabbers who have declared war on their fellow Jews. Chaim would tell you there is no difference between these demons and the Germans.
But Rabbi would call the Satmar Rebbe a Tzaddik. There is a difference between the NK and the Satmars.
There is a defference but it is very minor.
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More like nonexistent. The Satmar "rebbe" deliberately ordered his brainwashed dupes to stay in Hungary and march to the death camps as part of his deal with the SS to allow him to live.
If that doesn't make him a rodef, I don't know what makes anybody one.
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Tzvi, Chaim says the Haredim need to go to work. He addressed the Gur once on Ask JTF.
Also, the Satmar/NK are NOT merely "opposed to the current regime". They hate Zionism no matter what, and indeed they sincerely believe that Israel is Arab/Muslim land. They even make trips to Iran to stand in solidarity with Ahmadinejad.
These people aren't Jews--they are rodefs.
The Rambam says that Jews need to work. ( Hilchot Talmud Torah Perek 3, forgot which halacha.) He says anyone who thinks that they should learn all day, not work, and collect from tzedakah, extinguishes the light of torah, "biza et Hashem", and loses his place in olam haba. This is because you arent supposed to benefit from torah in this world. he also says they will come to steal. Ill elaborate later.
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Alright, do that. All I know is that Chaim has said that under Kahanism the Haredim who do not work or serve in the military for religious reasons would all have to.
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What Rabbi?
Rabbi Kahane ZT"L.Alright, do that. All I know is that Chaim has said that under Kahanism the Haredim who do not work or serve in the military for religious reasons would all have to.
But Im not sure if this is brought down as halacha in Shulchan Aruch, I dont think it is.
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Ha Rav Kahane (zt"l) said that the Satmar "rebbe" was a blessed and saintly man? Please provide a source.
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Heres your source. http://kahane.org/audio.htm Click on "A Torah Shiur at Yeshivah University" and listen and you will hear it at 4:15.
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He says ZT"L which means Zecher Tzaddik Lebracha.
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I'll ask Chaim about this. It does not seem right.
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What doesnt seem right? This is a JEWISH Religous view of the Satmar Rebbe, Zionist, and Non Zionist.
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Satmar and Neturei Karta are two completely different things. Satmar say Jews, only Jews, must not support political Zionism, but Gentiles are bound to help Israel. A Satmar Rav it to me by chat. Jews must wait for the Moshiach to take the land, but you are not a Jew and are bound to support Israel. It's nor up to you to get involved in Hallachic interpretations. You are a Goy and must support any Jewish effort.
On the other side Neturei Karta helps and loves Goyim who attack Israel.
That's the great difference!!!!!
Both, Orthodox Zionists and Orthodox anti-POLICAL HUMAN Zionism hold that EY is Jewish, they only differ on when Jews must take it.
However, seclalr Zionists who support surrender of Land have abandoned the hope, and many of their prayers are just lies. How can they say Amidah, which has many blessings for rebuilding Israel, if they support a compromise to rennounce that land? It's a Bracha said in vain!!!!!
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And where does everyone think the Moshiach was or will be to be born? I'll tell you one thing, it is not in Brooklyn.
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And where does everyone think the Moshiach was or will be to be born? I'll tell you one thing, it is not in Brooklyn.
I don't know...you never know...
But i'm pretty sure it won't be Antarctica...unless his parents are on a cruise and have a baby near by. :laugh:
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These are some interesting responses.
No i mean the question assumes the two are mutually exclusive. They are not.
Therefore the question is worthless.
You sure ?
(http://www.nkusa.org/activities/demonstrations/20071127/IMG_0799.jpg)
http://www.nkusa.org/
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Ha Rav Kahane (zt"l) said that the Satmar "rebbe" was a blessed and saintly man? Please provide a source.
I believe he did say ZT"L - and what he said was something to the effect of "There are obviously many things I disagree with the Satmar about - but the thought that students would picket a Rabbi is absolutely disgusting.
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I find this hard to believe. Ha Rav Kahane (zt"l) would say that one of history's hugest Nazi collaborators was a holy saint?
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I find this hard to believe. Ha Rav Kahane (zt"l) would say that one of history's hugest Nazi collaborators was a holy saint?
That's simply not the case, Chaimfan. And jdl4ever may be right about the "zt"l," I'm not sure. But if you don't believe me about the quote, here's the video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=oguHBnL5UYc (http://youtube.com/watch?v=oguHBnL5UYc) (that is Part One - it's a four part video, and I don't remember which part it's in)
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I find this hard to believe. Ha Rav Kahane (zt"l) would say that one of history's hugest Nazi collaborators was a holy saint?
That's simply not the case, Chaimfan. And jdl4ever may be right about the "zt"l," I'm not sure. But if you don't believe me about the quote, here's the video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=oguHBnL5UYc (http://youtube.com/watch?v=oguHBnL5UYc) (that is Part One - it's a four part video, and I don't remember which part it's in)
OdKahaneChai is right here, Kahane said that while he disagreed with the Satmer Rebbe, the Satmer was within the framework of Torah
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My mistake. The one the Rav was talking about was that one who died in 1979. He was the anti Zionist who told the Hungarian Jews to stay in Hungary and to not go to Israel. I don't think the Rav meant what he said though since he said it in a mocking way and said "Zl" not "Zsl". I got confused with the Chassidik lineages. He had no sons so the next Satmur Rabbi was his close relative. This one just died.
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A great Talmid Chacham should be praised, regardless of one's disagreements with them.
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The basic thing is that their is a simple disagreement between different groups. Now arguing within that context is okay and perfectly fine, but then labeling the other side as being evil, etc. just becuase you happen to disagree with them in one area is wronge and thats evil.
Hillel and Shemaya- and their students had fierce arguments all the time in the Beit Midrash but then were perfect/ best friends outside and showed the proper respect.
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I find this hard to believe. Ha Rav Kahane (zt"l) would say that one of history's hugest Nazi collaborators was a holy saint?
Face the facts. The Satmar rebbe was a great man, yes i do disagree with him on Israel, but he still was a giant in Torah. And face the fact, Rabbi Kahane called him a tzaddik, no matter how hard it is to believe.
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I don't think the Rav thought that he was a Tzadik simply because he said Z'l in public. He just did it so that the crowd would learn a lesson that if he respects this Rabbi of Israel than they should respect him. And the Satmur viewpoint is not simply a valid Torah argument like you are implying, there is no "Torah argument" when you go directly against what the Torah says. It's like saying Korach had a valid Torah argument.
And are we forgetting that the guy was PROVEN wrong when his advice killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews including my great grandparents? Doesn't proof count for anything here? Tzvi, you don't think that real life proof counts? (You can guess what I think of the Satmur "Rebbe" but I won't say it here)
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And are we forgetting that the guy was PROVEN wrong when his advice killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews including my great grandparents? Doesn't proof count for anything here? Tzvi, you don't think that real life proof counts? (You can guess what I think of the Satmur "Rebbe" but I won't say it here)
He wasn't "mistaken" or "wrong", JDL--the kapo Satmar "rebbe" deliberately told his followers to commit suicide because that was his end of the deal with the Nazis to allow him and his family to live. THAT is lower than simply killing Jews because you don't like them--that is the ULTIMATE betrayal and atrocity.
And yeah, it makes perfect sense that HaRav Kahane called him a "tzaddik" mockingly.
Dominater--your idolization of Nazi collaborators needs no comment.
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And are we forgetting that the guy was PROVEN wrong when his advice killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews including my great grandparents? Doesn't proof count for anything here? Tzvi, you don't think that real life proof counts? (You can guess what I think of the Satmur "Rebbe" but I won't say it here)
He wasn't "mistaken" or "wrong", JDL--the kapo Satmar "rebbe" deliberately told his followers to commit suicide because that was his end of the deal very seriwith the Nazis to allow him and his family to live. THAT is lower than simply killing Jews because you don't like them--that is the ULTIMATE betrayal and atrocity.
And yeah, it makes perfect sense that HaRav Kahane called him a "tzaddik" mockingly.
Dominater--your idolization of Nazi collaborators needs no commentnt
Where did u learn that the Satmar Rebbe, made a deal with the Nazis? And Rabbi Kahane was talking very seriously, when he called the Satmar rebbe ZT"L. Face the facts, no it wasnt "sarcashm" he was a torah giant, something that u will never understand.
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And are we forgetting that the guy was PROVEN wrong when his advice killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews including my great grandparents? Doesn't proof count for anything here? Tzvi, you don't think that real life proof counts? (You can guess what I think of the Satmur "Rebbe" but I won't say it here)
He wasn't "mistaken" or "wrong", JDL--the kapo Satmar "rebbe" deliberately told his followers to commit suicide because that was his end of the deal with the Nazis to allow him and his family to live. THAT is lower than simply killing Jews because you don't like them--that is the ULTIMATE betrayal and atrocity.
And yeah, it makes perfect sense that HaRav Kahane called him a "tzaddik" mockingly.
Dominater--your idolization of Nazi collaborators needs no comment.
He did not say it mockingly! Chaimfan - you don't check your facts - and it seems you have no idea what a Tzaddik is. The Satmar Rebbe, ZT"L, and that's right - ZT"L was a GREAT man!
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And are we forgetting that the guy was PROVEN wrong when his advice killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews including my great grandparents? Doesn't proof count for anything here? Tzvi, you don't think that real life proof counts? (You can guess what I think of the Satmur "Rebbe" but I won't say it here)
He wasn't "mistaken" or "wrong", JDL--the kapo Satmar "rebbe" deliberately told his followers to commit suicide because that was his end of the deal with the Nazis to allow him and his family to live. THAT is lower than simply killing Jews because you don't like them--that is the ULTIMATE betrayal and atrocity.
And yeah, it makes perfect sense that HaRav Kahane called him a "tzaddik" mockingly.
Dominater--your idolization of Nazi collaborators needs no comment.
He did not say it mockingly! Chaimfan - you don't check your facts - and it seems you have no idea what a Tzaddik is. The Satmar Rebbe, ZT"L, and that's right - ZT"L was a GREAT man!
Im not sure if he was a "great man", because he refused to recognize or help out Israel, I have no problem with the Non zionist for religious reasons, but I do with the Anti Zionist. All I know is that he was a giant in torah, and a talmid Hacham.
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I am surprised to find my fellow Kahanists calling this guy a Torah Scholar. I'll keep the Loshan Harah to myself and curse him out privately.
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He did not say it mockingly! Chaimfan - you don't check your facts - and it seems you have no idea what a Tzaddik is. The Satmar Rebbe, ZT"L, and that's right - ZT"L was a GREAT man!
If you feel so confidently about this, you should ask Chaim.
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I am surprised to find my fellow Kahanists calling this guy a Torah Scholar. I'll keep the Loshan Harah to myself and curse him out privately.
this is also a form of lashon hara.
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And are we forgetting that the guy was PROVEN wrong when his advice killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews including my great grandparents? Doesn't proof count for anything here? Tzvi, you don't think that real life proof counts? (You can guess what I think of the Satmur "Rebbe" but I won't say it here)
He wasn't "mistaken" or "wrong", JDL--the kapo Satmar "rebbe" deliberately told his followers to commit suicide because that was his end of the deal with the Nazis to allow him and his family to live. THAT is lower than simply killing Jews because you don't like them--that is the ULTIMATE betrayal and atrocity.
And yeah, it makes perfect sense that HaRav Kahane called him a "tzaddik" mockingly.
Dominater--your idolization of Nazi collaborators needs no comment.
He did not say it mockingly! Chaimfan - you don't check your facts - and it seems you have no idea what a Tzaddik is. The Satmar Rebbe, ZT"L, and that's right - ZT"L was a GREAT man!
I have no problem with the Non zionist for religious reasons, but I do with the Non Zionist.
Your statement seems contradictiory, can you clarify or correct.
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Oh sorry gonna edit what I said now.
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I am surprised to find my fellow Kahanists calling this guy a Torah Scholar. I'll keep the Loshan Harah to myself and curse him out privately.
this is also a form of lashon hara.
Even a man who was righteous, Loshon Harah doesn't exist from the Torah after someone is dead by the way. It's a Rabbinic decree not to make Loshon Hara after someone died.
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He did not say it mockingly! Chaimfan - you don't check your facts - and it seems you have no idea what a Tzaddik is. The Satmar Rebbe, ZT"L, and that's right - ZT"L was a GREAT man!
If you feel so confidently about this, you should ask Chaim.
And if he disagrees with me?
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The Satmer Rebbe misinterpreted some things, but at least his interpretations were reasonable and within the structure of Torah
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This isn't a question of interpretation. This is the question of a man who (a) quite literally sold his soul to the Nazis, and ordered his faithful to commit suicide, so that he would be permitted to flee, and (b) afterwards did everything in his power to subvert and undermine the Jews that did manage to survive the Holocaust in his relentless attacks on Israel.
I can't believe that G-d would so casually forgive this simply because he was supposedly a learned rabbi. I certainly would not worship a G-d who is so flippant about mass murder.
If the Satmar "rebbe" was still a "righteous man" because he was a Torah expert, then it could be stated just as fairly that Martin Luther (ys"vz) was also a noble Bible scholar who was simply "mistaken" when it comes to Jews.
If you don't want to agree with me, as a Gentile, that is fine, but I would at least suggest asking Chaim how he feels about him. Actually I do know what he says of him--he has brought him up on Ask JTF many times.
Chaimfan
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This isn't a question of interpretation. This is the question of a man who (a) quite literally sold his soul to the Nazis, and ordered his faithful to commit suicide, so that he would be permitted to flee, and (b) afterwards did everything in his power to subvert and undermine the Jews that did manage to survive the Holocaust in his relentless attacks on Israel.
I can't believe that G-d would so casually forgive this simply because he was supposedly a learned rabbi. I certainly would not worship a G-d who is so flippant about mass murder.
If the Satmar "rebbe" was still a "righteous man" because he was a Torah expert, then it could be stated just as fairly that Martin Luther (ys"vz) was also a noble Bible scholar who was simply "mistaken" when it comes to Jews.
If you don't want to agree with me, as a Gentile, that is fine, but I would at least suggest asking Chaim how he feels about him. Actually I do know what he says of him--he has brought him up on Ask JTF many times.
Chaimfan
So I can disagree with Chaim here, can I not? There is no proof for any of your facts. The Satmar Rebbe was a Talmid Chacham and a Tzaddik. Zecher Tzadik Livracha.
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Define what makes a person a saint in Judaism.
Also, do you think Christians have the right to consider someone like Luther or Chrysostom a saint? (Obviously I don't, but many do.)
CF
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Define what makes a person a saint in Judaism.
Also, do you think Christians have the right to consider someone like Luther or Chrysostom a saint? (Obviously I don't, but many do.)
CF
To be honest, I could care less.
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But I am interested. How do you define what constitutes a saint in Judaism?
It is a real question--not an attempt to pick a fight.
Chaimfan.
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There is no such thing as a saint in Judaism.
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But I am interested. How do you define what constitutes a saint in Judaism?
It is a real question--not an attempt to pick a fight.
Chaimfan.
There are no clear definitions...
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You said that there is no proof for any of my facts. What proof do you need? The fact that the Satmar leader made a deal with the Nazis in order to save his life is basic historical knowledge, not some arcane Kahanist secret. Do you also think there is no proof for the Holocaust?
You also said there is no clear means to define saint in Judaism, yet you called the Satmar "rebbe" one. How can you reconcile these statements?
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You said that there is no proof for any of my facts. What proof do you need? The fact that the Satmar leader made a deal with the Nazis in order to save his life is basic historical knowledge, not some arcane Kahanist secret.
It's common falsehood, if anything. Rudolf Kastner got the Satmar Rebbe out of Hungary. R' Teitelbaum himself had nothing to do with it.
You also said there is no clear means to define saint in Judaism, yet you called the Satmar "rebbe" one. How can you reconcile these statements?
That's in my opinion - which I'm certainly entitled to, aren't I? With your logic, no one could be called a Tzaddik...
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Od, you called a man a saint but then said you have no way to even gauge what a saint is in Judaism. That does not make sense.
Kastner is not the one who told the Satmars to go to their deaths at Auschwitz. Teitelbaum was.
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Od, you called a man a saint but then said you have no way to even gauge what a saint is in Judaism. That does not make sense.
Kastner is not the one who told the Satmars to go to their deaths at Auschwitz. Teitelbaum was.
A Saint is an extremely righteous person. There are different ways to gauge what that is though.
And I'd like to see one legitimate source that shows the Satmar Rebbe ZT"L, "telling the Satmars to go to their deaths at Auschwitz."
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CF he called him Tzaddik (in this word their are also levels (ex- the higher and lower Tzaddik) , saint is really a christian word which is different.
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You said that there is no proof for any of my facts. What proof do you need? The fact that the Satmar leader made a deal with the Nazis in order to save his life is basic historical knowledge, not some arcane Kahanist secret. Do you also think there is no proof for the Holocaust?
You also said there is no clear means to define saint in Judaism, yet you called the Satmar "rebbe" one. How can you reconcile these statements?
NO I never called him a saint. I called him a tzaddik, which means righteous.
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I didn't say you did, Dominater, OdKahaneChai called him a tzaddik, which roughly means saint in English.
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And I'd like to see one legitimate source that shows the Satmar Rebbe ZT"L, "telling the Satmars to go to their deaths at Auschwitz."
Perfidy by Ben Hecht isn't a legitimate source? ???
Rebbe Teitelbaum, a good friend of the Labor Party Bolshevist kapo Kastner, told his followers that the Nazis would not hurt them, and to go along with them and obey them.
Do you doubt such foundational Kahanist literature as Perfidy?
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And I'd like to see one legitimate source that shows the Satmar Rebbe ZT"L, "telling the Satmars to go to their deaths at Auschwitz."
Perfidy by Ben Hecht isn't a legitimate source? ???
Rebbe Teitelbaum, a good friend of the Labor Party Bolshevist kapo Kastner, told his followers that the Nazis would not hurt them, and to go along with them and obey them.
Do you doubt such foundational Kahanist literature as Perfidy?
How is Perfidy Kahanist? It was published before anyone (besides maybe a handful of Jewish Press readers) even knew who Kahane was.
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Dovid Weiss has the latter and does not have the former.