JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ari on January 18, 2008, 12:03:57 PM
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No offense to Doctor Dan, but I was wondering if you would trust everything your doctor would tell you in terms of your health. Luckily, I'm still pretty young and in solid health not having crossed this bridge yet, but I have known some elderly people who were fine, living a long and healthy life. Then they were diagnosed with cancer, underwent treatment on a Doctor's reccommendation and dropped dead shortly after. My gut tells me if they were to just go on living their lives, they would have had a few good years left. Moreover, there have been many drugs approved by the FDA later proven to do absolutely nothing, drugs pushed aggresively on people by doctors. I am also reminded not to always trust your doctor by another story I read yesterday. This basketball player had his testicle removed, and it turns out the supposed tumor was benign. Isn't there a way to tell this before surgery? What it comes down to is that I am always somewhat skeptical when it comes to reading or being given health related advice. I would always do my own thorough reseach and leave drastic action by a doctor as an ultimate last resort. Furthemore, I place my ultimate health and destiny much more in G-d's hands than in another human being. This is still not to say that I don't respect many who enter the medical profession with genuine motives. Certainly, they do a great deal of good as well. Thoughts?
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Jasmina is a Doctor as well
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Yes. Surgery is a bad deal. Of course, the best treatment is prevention.
You bring up a good point, Ari. For a severely ill person to undergo surgery seems like a bad idea. Major surgery can only be devastating. Like being hit by a truck. Perhaps ignorance in this situation is better than being dissected during the last days of one's life.
I strongly believe in the power of the mind over disease. Nothing is as powerful as the mind. By the same token, nothing can be so damaging as the brain. It all depends on how its used.
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I kinda agree with Scriaban( allthought the last line is good but not 100% allways the case). The best thing is prevention, and it would be better generally not to rely on doctors to cure you. One shouldn't live life damaging him/her self and then think that everything is curable by a doctor. Also their is a lot of fishy business going on with doctors where I hear that they are being paid by the drug companies. Also in general all drugs are bad for you, for example if you take something to cure your heart then many times the side affects might be worse, where it will also mess up your liver, and kidneys, etc. Surgery should be the last of the last resorts. The best thing is to have confidence in G-d, which itself will make you happy and true happiness is a great cure for all problems.
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I kinda agree with Scriaban( allthought the last line is good but not 100% allways the case). The best thing is prevention, and it would be better generally not to rely on doctors to cure you. One shouldn't live life damaging him/her self and then think that everything is curable by a doctor. Also their is a lot of fishy business going on with doctors where I hear that they are being paid by the drug companies. Also in general all drugs are bad for you, for example if you take something to cure your heart then many times the side affects might be worse, where it will also mess up your liver, and kidneys, etc. Surgery should be the last of the last resorts. The best thing is to have confidence in G-d, which itself will make you happy and true happiness is a great cure for all problems.
Doctors make big bucks doing surgery. It is essentially racketeering.
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http://www.azamra.org/wings.shtml - this is actually a good book (free online) on this subject. I have read some chapters, and others just glanced threw for now. It has different healing according to Rambam, Ramban, Rabbi Nachman, The Baal Shem Tov, etc.
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Sure, prevention is the best key, but again I have known people, who I considered to live very healthy lives, tell me that all of a sudden they have come down with a serious illness requiring pretty drastic action. It's a difficult question. I honestly feel many methods used by doctors each day do more harm than good (chemo, etc.). Unfortunately, many times we don't find out about the drawbacks until years later for accepted practices. Just look back at the history of modern medicine. Common pratices of previous generations would be considered pure lunacy today.
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We should do as much research shopping for a doctor as we do shopping for a car. ;)
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Sure, prevention is the best key, but again I have known people, who I considered to live very healthy lives, tell me that all of a sudden they have come down with a serious illness requiring pretty drastic action. It's a difficult question. I honestly feel many methods used by doctors each day do more harm than good (chemo, etc.). Unfortunately, many times we don't find out about the drawbacks until years later.
My father was told by doctors to take this drug, and then another, and then even surgery for his kidney problem. He tried everything, and then went to this great Mekubal (note: not everyone who says he is is qualified, you have to find the right person). Ever since he helped him a lot, and he told him not to take those drugs, and no matter how much the doctors insist not to do sergury. I wouldn't say that he is 100% healed now, but he no longer is frequenting the hospital.
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Good news, Tzvi. O0
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no offense at all
second opinions are usually necessary..
and a great doctor is one who explains himself very well and is sincere.
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Yes. Surgery is a bad deal. Of course, the best treatment is prevention.
You bring up a good point, Ari. For a severely ill person to undergo surgery seems like a bad idea. Major surgery can only be devastating. Like being hit by a truck. Perhaps ignorance in this situation is better than being dissected during the last days of one's life.
I strongly believe in the power of the mind over disease. Nothing is as powerful as the mind. By the same token, nothing can be so damaging as the brain. It all depends on how its used.
surgery should be a last resort
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I kinda agree with Scriaban( allthought the last line is good but not 100% allways the case). The best thing is prevention, and it would be better generally not to rely on doctors to cure you. One shouldn't live life damaging him/her self and then think that everything is curable by a doctor. Also their is a lot of fishy business going on with doctors where I hear that they are being paid by the drug companies. Also in general all drugs are bad for you, for example if you take something to cure your heart then many times the side affects might be worse, where it will also mess up your liver, and kidneys, etc. Surgery should be the last of the last resorts. The best thing is to have confidence in G-d, which itself will make you happy and true happiness is a great cure for all problems.
Well, it depends...taking drugs just to cure symptoms and doing nothing about anything else about it is a bad idea.
I don't like it when i hear patients see a doctor for a certain problem and the doctor just gives them drugs and see you later...
However, when drugs are necessary to save a life, even if there are side effects, it maybe necessary to save that life.
I will say take the medication, but in addition to that have confidence in Gd...don't do one without the other.
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:) Thanks.
There is a famous talmudic statement that "the best of physicians are destined to go to hell" (Kiddushin 82a). In the words of the talmudic commentator, R. Menachem ben Shlomo Me'iri (1249-1316), the reason is that the doctor "does not make enough effort in his work of healing, or at times he does not know the cause of the illness and how to cure it, but he presents himself as an expert and causes the death of the patient" (Me'iri ad loc.). Rashi (ad loc.) agrees that doctors sometimes cause the death of their patients, and he adds that the doctor is unafraid of illness and does not humble himself before God, and also fails to help those who cannot afford treatment.
http://www.azamra.org/Heal/Wings/15.htm
Also another commentary I heard on this is that it says tov- which = 17, the doctor that says 17 Brahot of the Shemona Esrai as opposed to the 18 Original (not counting the extra one put on later), because he believes that it is he who heals and not G-d, therefor he omits the Bracha of Refaeinu (G-d heal us).
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no offense at all
second opinions are usually necessary..
and a great doctor is one who explains himself very well and is sincere.
What a good description of the perfect doctor.
I agree that people have to seek second opinions when possible.
Not all medicine or surgery is bad.
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Sure, prevention is the best key, but again I have known people, who I considered to live very healthy lives, tell me that all of a sudden they have come down with a serious illness requiring pretty drastic action. It's a difficult question. I honestly feel many methods used by doctors each day do more harm than good (chemo, etc.). Unfortunately, many times we don't find out about the drawbacks until years later for accepted practices. Just look back at the history of modern medicine. Common pratices of previous generations would be considered pure lunacy today.
I would be better off to go to medical school to learn a little more than just to speculate...you are no Dr. to be giving advice or suggestions.
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:) Thanks.
There is a famous talmudic statement that "the best of physicians are destined to go to hell" (Kiddushin 82a). In the words of the talmudic commentator, R. Menachem ben Shlomo Me'iri (1249-1316), the reason is that the doctor "does not make enough effort in his work of healing, or at times he does not know the cause of the illness and how to cure it, but he presents himself as an expert and causes the death of the patient" (Me'iri ad loc.). Rashi (ad loc.) agrees that doctors sometimes cause the death of their patients, and he adds that the doctor is unafraid of illness and does not humble himself before G-d, and also fails to help those who cannot afford treatment.
http://www.azamra.org/Heal/Wings/15.htm
Also another commentary I heard on this is that it says tov- which = 17, the doctor that says 17 Brahot of the Shemona Esrai as opposed to the 18 Original (not counting the extra one put on later), because he believes that it is he who heals and not G-d, therefor he omits the Bracha of Refaeinu (G-d heal us).
nice...
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I have some things to say on this topic... first to quote:
"This basketball player had his testicle removed, and it turns out the supposed tumor was benign. Isn't there a way to tell this before surgery?"
NO BIOPSY ON TESTICLE BECAUSE YOU DO MORE HARM THEN REMOVE IT IN CASE OF CANCER
second: I don't trust doctors who love MONEY more then G-D!!!!!!
of course EVERYBODY who WORK can make a mistake, BUT TRY your best NOT TO make mistakes!!!!
I thank G-d I really understand a lot of what doctors say and I can judge my self if something is wrong or not, and I can say my opinion..if I'm not sure on something, there is Internet or medical books to find out... :)
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I'm too sqeamish to go to medical school. I try not to speculate too much. I'm addicted to reading about most health topics, but I don't consider myself an expert. The above commentary was mainly an argument for personal choice.
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I'm too sqeamish to go to medical school. I try not to speculate too much. I'm addicted to reading about most health topics, but I don't consider myself an expert. The above commentary was mainly an argument for personal choice.
If you want to know what's good for you...get several opinions before you decide to make a choice on your health or anyone you really care about.
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Haha NOOOOOOOO not Implicitly :::D :::D
Even tho he is a dear friend of mine 8;)
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What doctor? I haven't been to a doctor in 15 years. I see a dentist and eye specialist every few years but no medical doctors for me. If you want to be sick see a doctor ;)
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Tzvi, you sound like a nut; no offense. Doctors actually cure people. If you have a big medical decision than get several opinions from different doctors. Most of what the Rambam knew about medicine is outdated (although advanced for his time period), they didn't even have effective medicine in his time. Normal people would go to a Doctor instead of going to a Kabbalist.
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Scriabin: "...It is essentially racketeering..."
It's worse!
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There just might be more than one Doc on this forum... ^-^
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In all honesty there are many good doctors out there and when something really knocks people down they often look to a doctor for help. The problem today is the system. It makes it hard for doctors to do a good job and even harder for the sick to find a doctor they can trust. I am old enough to remember the family doctor that would come to the house when a person was sick. People today don't know how great that was. Today with skyrocketing costs for insurance and frivolous law suits doctors need to scramble to make ends meet so we end up with production line medicine. Still with a little due diligence and luck it is possible to find good doctors.
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I like the idea of seeing several doctors and forming a consensus in order to move forward in any plan of attack. I also believe the patient should become as closely informed as his or her doctors as possible, on the particular medical issue at hand. My main point is that medicine is not a perfect system, and nobody, not even very well educated, and hopefully well-intentioned, doctors should be followed blindly. The pateient is always the key part of the decision making process in the end! O0
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I am not one of those that goes to a doctor for anything, the only way I ever go to a doctor if it is that majorly needed.
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I'm the same way, but my Mother gives me a major guilt trip if I don't at least go for a physical every year or two.
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I'm the same way, but my Mother gives me a major guilt trip if I don't at least go for a physical every year or two.
Yes that is good tho.