JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on January 27, 2008, 10:04:04 PM
-
Thanks for answering all my questions so far Chaim :)
I was curious if any Christians can be considered by Jews to be righteous Gentiles, because most Jews I've spoken to have told me that Christians are idol worshippers and because of this they can not be considered to be "righteous Gentiles" even if they do righteous things or help Jews. I was wondering how you believed about this topic.
Rubystars, I can save you a question. Chaim does NOT consider Christians to be idolaters in any way, and believes that Christians and other righteous Gentiles will go to heaven. Most Jews do not think this way either--it is an extreme minority that is typified by the people on sites such as revava.org that believe in this. Chaim has always welcomed Christians and all other pro-Israel Gentiles into the movement, just as Rabbi Kahane (zt"l) did. Jews generally believe that any person who abides by the seven Noahide Laws (do not steal, do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not eat the meat of live animals, worship G-d, etc.) is righteous and "saved".
-
Most Jews do not think this way either--it is an extreme minority that is typified by the people on sites such as revava.org that believe in this.
Most Jews I've spoken to believe this way, although some have told me that they don't consider Christians to be idolaters in the same way that someone worshipping a statue would be.
Chaim has always welcomed Christians and all other pro-Israel Gentiles into the movement, just as Rabbi Kahane (zt"l) did. Jews generally believe that any person who abides by the seven Noahide Laws (do not steal, do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not eat the meat of live animals, worship G-d, etc.) is righteous and "saved".
One of the Noahide laws is about idolatry. While I don't believe in committing sexual immorality or eating limbs off of live animals, etc. I do worship Jesus as part of the G-d head, which means that to some Jews, I'm considered to be an idol worshipper, putting me in automatic violation of the rule against idolatry.
In fact the friend who introduced me to JTF believes that Christians are idolaters, but we're still friends with one another.
-
Most Jews I've spoken to believe this way, although some have told me that they don't consider Christians to be idolaters in the same way that someone worshipping a statue would be.
One of the Noahide laws is about idolatry. While I don't believe in committing sexual immorality or eating limbs off of live animals, etc. I do worship Jesus as part of the G-d head, which means that to some Jews, I'm considered to be an idol worshipper, putting me in automatic violation of the rule against idolatry.
In fact the friend who introduced me to JTF believes that Christians are idolaters, but we're still friends with one another.
Well, I can't tell you who these "most Jews" are, except to tell you that Chaim and Yacov do NOT feel this way, and that the Torah does not teach this. If some rabbinical authorities have decided this, that is their belief, and not a tenet of Judaism. Chaim won't tell you any differently than I have. I have never felt like I have been viewed as an idolater in any way.
-
Well, I can't tell you who these "most Jews" are, except to tell you that Chaim and Yacov do NOT feel this way, and that the Torah does not teach this. If some rabbinical authorities have decided this, that is their belief, and not a tenet of Judaism. Chaim won't tell you any differently than I have. I have never felt like I have been viewed as an idolater in any way.
That's wonderful. :) Thanks for letting me know. I might edit my question later this week to ask a slightly different question. Thanks C.F.
-
Just because somebody is (technically) an idollator doesn't mean they won't go to heaven.
While christianity may be considered 'technical' idolatry by Jews, the majority of Rabbis agree that 'the righteous of ALL nations have a place in the world to come'. That means righteous hindus, buhdists, christians etc.
The main thing is to adhere to the 7 Laws of Noah. G_d will not condemn somebody who has kept those laws EXCEPT the one regarding idolatry because of his up-bringing and culture. How can a peasant in a village in India be expected to reject hinduism without help?
-
I can sum it up in one sentence........
If your a Jew be an excellent Jew and if your a Christian be an excellent Christian.
-
I can sum it up in one sentence........
If your a Jew be an excellent Jew and if your a Christian be an excellent Christian.
And if you're a muSSlim, you're doomed.
-
Thanks for answering all my questions so far Chaim :)
I was curious if any Christians can be considered by Jews to be righteous Gentiles, because most Jews I've spoken to have told me that Christians are idol worshippers and because of this they can not be considered to be "righteous Gentiles" even if they do righteous things or help Jews. I was wondering how you believed about this topic.
Rubystars, I can save you a question. Chaim does NOT consider Christians to be idolaters in any way, and believes that Christians and other righteous Gentiles will go to heaven. Most Jews do not think this way either--it is an extreme minority that is typified by the people on sites such as revava.org that believe in this.
This is actually not true. The vast majority of Rabbis hold that Christianity is, in fact, idolatry. Chaim follows the Meiri, who is in the extreme minority. Just to clear things up...
And most of the people on Revava are good people. Ha'ivri, I do not want to say any Loshon Hora about...
-
I'll add that for a Jew to say this is not doing this in the spirit of Jeramiah who considered a righteous religion one in which someone was merciful, walked with Gd, and a third thing that I can't remember.
-
I've read that Maimonides wrote somewhere that teaching Christians the Torah is fine, and that they're not pagans since they accept our Tanach/Torah. Now if I remember correctly, he was against teaching the Torah to moosies, being that it would be futile, or something to that effect.
-
I've read that Maimonides wrote somewhere that teaching Christians the Torah is fine, and that they're not pagans since they accept our Tanach /Torah. Now if I remember correctly, he was against teaching the Torah to moosies, being that it would be futile, or something to that effect.
Rambam holds that, threatened by death, one can convert to Islam, but not Christianity, because Islam is not idolatry whereas Christianity is. This is the majority opinion.
-
So who was against teaching Tanakh to Muslims?
-
I've read that Maimonides wrote somewhere that teaching Christians the Torah is fine, and that they're not pagans since they accept our Tanach /Torah. Now if I remember correctly, he was against teaching the Torah to moosies, being that it would be futile, or something to that effect.
I suspect that was for the following reasons:
1/ christians maintain that the Tanach is right and correct but 'G-d changed his mind about the status of Jews'.
2/ muSSlims on the other hand believe the Tanach to be 'a perversion' and that 'Adam and Eve, Moses etc were all muSSlims, the real tanach taught iSSlam' etc etc.
Clearly it would be a waste of time teaching the Tanach to the sheep humpers as they regard it as false.
-
So who was against teaching Tanakh to Muslims?
One shouldn't teach Tanach to any Goyim, I don't know what the Rambam says about this, though.
-
So who was against teaching Tanakh to Muslims?
One shouldn't teach Tanach to any Goyim, I don't know what the Rambam says about this, though.
It's the Talmud Jews aren't allowed to teach the Goyim. The whole purpose of Jews existance is to bring Torah (and ethical mono-theism) to the goyim.
-
1/ christians maintain that the Tanach is right and correct but 'G-d changed his mind about the status of Jews'.
That would be those Christians who hold to a doctrine known as replacement theology, but not all Christians.
Oh, and it's really nice to see everyone's opinions and discussion on the topic. I hope everyone remains friendly to one another in this thread. I enjoy learning about different religions and this is giving me some good insight about the different opinions within Judaism when it comes to idolatry and what that entails.
-
Someone wishing to learn from the Jewish People. They watch us and learn from our examples in how we live in our community and how we interact with the world around us. They can ask questions and we can explain why we do what we do.
Not by direct study from scriptures.
-
It's the Talmud Jews aren't allowed to teach the Goyim. The whole purpose of Jews existance is to bring Torah (and ethical mono-theism) to the goyim.
I knew I had heard that somewhere. When I asked Chaim about it though, he said there weren't any restrictions and he doesn't know why the guy got upset when I asked about it. So now I'm a bit confused. :D
-
Someone wishing to learn from the Jewish People. They watch us and learn from our examples in how we live in our community and how we interact with the world around us. They can ask questions and we can explain why we do what we do.
Not by direct study from scriptures.
Yeah that's with regard to the Talmud.
I've never heard anybody say that Jews cannot teach Tanach to goyim.
In fact, there is an orthodox-run institute in Israel where christians go to learn Tanach.
-
Most Jews I've spoken to believe this way, although some have told me that they don't consider Christians to be idolaters in the same way that someone worshipping a statue would be.
One of the Noahide laws is about idolatry. While I don't believe in committing sexual immorality or eating limbs off of live animals, etc. I do worship Jesus as part of the G-d head, which means that to some Jews, I'm considered to be an idol worshipper, putting me in automatic violation of the rule against idolatry.
In fact the friend who introduced me to JTF believes that Christians are idolaters, but we're still friends with one another.
Well, I can't tell you who these "most Jews" are, except to tell you that Chaim and Yacov do NOT feel this way, and that the Torah does not teach this. If some rabbinical authorities have decided this, that is their belief, and not a tenet of Judaism. Chaim won't tell you any differently than I have. I have never felt like I have been viewed as an idolater in any way.
In the gemara....
It's a machloikes. I definitely wouldn't advise it for a goy but it's certainly not for me or anyone else to judge if there was no real decision by the rabbis (I'm not sure what they ruled, I haven't learned that gemara). One thing IS for certain that for a JEW to worship x-ianity or yashka, it WOULD DEFINITELY be idolatry.
-
- Jews dont have a responsibility to telling the nations that their religions are false (unless a Prophet ex- Jonah), unless it serves a purpose to the Jews or unless a missionary or someone else wanting to convert Jews, then it could be shown and proven etc. BUT one thing that I dont agree is besides Jews becoming other religions and cults, is to also approve of them or say that non-Jews should follow religion X Y or Z, or statements such as - America should become an X country, or something similar to that.
-
C.F. Jews do believe Christians are idol worshippers, the Rambam also confirms it.
-
What about hindus :P
-
Dexter, I believe that Jews are the ones not aloud to believe in the whole concept of a Trinity. I don't think most rabbis of today go around telling their congregations who is and who is not an idol worshipper. Nor should we care about that. We live and let live, and hope others do the same for us.
-
C.F. Jews do believe Christians are idol worshippers, the Rambam also confirms it.
Evidence?
-
Why is it forbidden for gentiles to read the Talmud?
-
Golden Pheasant,
My guess (since I have never read the Talmud) is that it's a very cryptic body of work, which can be subject to misinterpretation.
In one of his audio lectures on the Talmud, Rabbi Tovia Singer said just that. He also pointed out that extreme examples are used to stress certain points. In his view the purpose of such examples was so that the laws would be applicable to as many situations as possible.
-
You are right, Lisa. It is not easy to read.
I have bought before ca. one year two volumes of the translation of Lazarus Goldschmidt. I have only readed until now a few pages. It is for someone who has nobody, who can explain him, very hard.
I have volume X. containing Hulin + Bekhoroth + Arakhin and volume XI. containing Zebahim + Menahoth.
First I want to buy the whole Talmud, but after I see the prices, I bought only this two volumes on http://choosebooks.com
-
Dear Golden Pheasant,
You might be better of buying a book *about* the Talmud. I've heard that "The Complete Idiot's Guide To The Talmud" is good.
-
Dear Golden Pheasant,
You might be better of buying a book *about* the Talmud. I've heard that "The Complete Idiot's Guide To The Talmud" is good.
Thank you Lisa, I have ordered it for EUR 13,99 :)
-
To Dexter and Chaimfan,
While some Jews would argue that Christianity is not technically as monotheistic as Judaism or Islam, I don't think any of that is relevant at this point in time.
From what I know, Judaism focuses on a person's deeds. So whereas Muslims will put on a big show about being all monotheistic and militantly rejecting any form of graven images, their evil deeds pose the biggest problem for Jews and righteous gentiles. In other words, it's fine to be monotheistic, but killing each other and "non-believers" is unacceptable, as are suicide bombings, honor killings, and female circumcision.
Ashish, the Jewish and Hindu religions are very different. But that doesn't mean Jews hate Hindus.
Like others have said, Judaism doesn't require that others become Jewish. If they are righteous, and follow the simple Noahide laws, they can also obtain a place in the world to come.
-
Like others have said, Judaism doesn't require that others become Jewish. If they are righteous, and follow the simple Noahide laws, they can also obtain a place in the world to come.
The problem being that idolaters automatically are not following those laws.
-
I think newman is right here. I see no problem in sharing Torah with the righteous gentiles of this spiritually dying generation unless it puts Jewish people in danger.
We are supposed to be a light to the nations. What does a light do? It illuminates the darkness and helps people find the path. It shows the TRUTH and reality of our situations and brings good and the only truth comes from Hashem. How can we be a light if we hide the medicine that people are begging for? Again... if it endangers a Jewish person, then it's a different matter.
Our main mission is to love one another and to fix the planet. I can't see how we can do this without the Torah.
-
Why is it forbidden for gentiles to read the Talmud?
When one researches noachidism you'll read time and time again that it is considered 'great' for a gentile to study Torah...."but not the parts of Torah that relate only to Jews". This means Talmud and the parts of Tanach that deal with strictly Jewish matters such as ritual cleanliness for Temple worship, tzit tzit etc.
The RAMBAM himself said "a gentile who studies Torah is as our high priests".
As far as jews teaching Torah go, consider the following:
1/ As shlomo said, What is the purpose of "a light unto the nations" and "a nation of priests" if not to teach the Torah?
2/ Has it not been said countless times that Torah is for all mankind and that Jews are it's keepers or custodians?
3/ If Jews do not teach direct from the Tanach and give the goyim the proper meaning and interpretation, will that not lead to the goyim misunderstanding crucial aspects of it and lead to false religions, replacement theology and other catastrophies as we've seen for the last 2000 years?
4/ I believe it is the Talmud Jews must not teach to gentiles directly but they can paraphrase it and give gentiles some basic understanding of it for legitimate reasons. ie; If (g-d forbid) the anti-semites rise up and a righteous gentile must hide Jews in his home, should he not have a basic understanding of kashrut so as not to inadvertantly cause Jews to sin by giving them un-kosher food?
-
I think I read the book, that Lisa has advised me first. After it I am going to read the Bibel again.
This can wait:
(http://www.bilderhoster.net/safeforbilder/m1y348t1.jpg)
(http://www.bilderhoster.net/safeforbilder/vc3x7gcn.jpg)
Books don't run away :)
-
Books don't run away :)
And schvartzas will never steal them. lol
-
Books don't run away :)
And schvartzas will never steal them. lol
;D
-
The RAMBAM's "Guide To The Perplexed" is a must for gentiles, too.
-
The RAMBAM's "Guide To The Perplexed" is a must for gentiles, too.
Maybe, but I dont think that Jews should read it, unless one comes from a philosophical background and can only understand in that sort of way. Like the title says- its a guide to the perplexed.
Besides that its not the proper path for people to learn what isn't related to them and what is not needed for them. This includes gentiles learning the Talmud, and even Jewish women learning most of the things is not for them either (except the laws that they have to keep). With a gentile it is said that he/she puts themselves in a life risk (Heavenly) when they study the Talmud or keep Shabb-t because it is not for them.
-
The RAMBAM's "Guide To The Perplexed" is a must for gentiles, too.
Maybe, but I dont think that Jews should read it, unless one comes from a philosophical background and can only understand in that sort of way. Like the title says- its a guide to the perplexed.
Besides that its not the proper path for people to learn what isn't related to them and what is not needed for them. This includes gentiles learning the Talmud, and even Jewish women learning most of the things is not for them either (except the laws that they have to keep). With a gentile it is said that he/she puts themselves in a life risk (Heavenly) when they study the Talmud or keep Shabbat because it is not for them.
A gentile who studies Torah with the mindset of an idolator also risks curses. As does Kabbalah study without solid Torah knowledge.
The point is.........
In order for the gentiles to learn (their relevant parts of) Torah, they must learn from Jews or they'll never 'get it'.
-
The RAMBAM's "Guide To The Perplexed" is a must for gentiles, too.
Maybe, but I dont think that Jews should read it, unless one comes from a philosophical background and can only understand in that sort of way. Like the title says- its a guide to the perplexed.
Besides that its not the proper path for people to learn what isn't related to them and what is not needed for them. This includes gentiles learning the Talmud, and even Jewish women learning most of the things is not for them either (except the laws that they have to keep). With a gentile it is said that he/she puts themselves in a life risk (Heavenly) when they study the Talmud or keep Shabbat because it is not for them.
What is the reason for the danger?