JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Odie on March 16, 2008, 11:23:54 AM
-
Michael L. Brown a Jewish Believer in Jesus has written 4 volumes
called "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus"
Has his 4 volumes been Refuted..
I heard he is going to come out with a 5th volume
-
Michael L. Brown a Jewish Believer in Jesus has written 4 volumes
called "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus"
Has his 4 volumes been Refuted..
I heard he is going to come out with a 5th volume
http://torahanytime.com/rav_mizrachi.html
11/07/07 The Debate - Rabbi vs. Christian Part 1
11/07/07 The Debate - Rabbi vs. Christian Part 2
You will find your answers. Also if you want more you can just locate Rav Tovia Singer on that site, who also has a lot of anti-missionary Shiurim. But definitly check out this famous debate.
-
not sure if they still exist, but Jews for Judaism was/is an excellent anti-missionary group.
-
From a Christian point of view are Jews for Jesus heretics.
I don't write this to appeal to the Jews here, but because it is true.
The letter of Paulus to the Galater is very clear. You can't be a Jewish Christ.
A Christ is not bound to the ceremonial law, like holidays, sacrifices in the holy temple, kashruth etc.
He is free in the selection of the days to celebrate. Even the Sunday can be moved to another day i.e Wednesday, without problems. It is for Jews unthinkable to move i.e. the Shabbat to Wednesday.
From a Christian point of view it is a sin for Christians to obey Jewish holidays, because this days have had for Christians only the meaning to point to Jesus.
Paulus said, that you are not allowed to celebrate it, because this is indicating, that the Christians, who did so, are not believing in Jesus.
Paulus said to the Galater, that they are fallen out of the grace, because they did so. With other words: They are going to hell.
I think from a jewish point of view it is the same. No gentile has to obey Jewish holidays.
Jews for Jesus have a real problem. Neither they fulfill Christianity nor Judaism.
Chaim is right, they are from a Christian point of view a cult.
-
They are a cult that destroy Jewish souls and should be killed!
I am sorry to say that they have my father in their clutches and as a result, we are now estranged.
This has caused me great pain.
-
They are a cult that destroy Jewish souls and should be killed!
I am sorry to say that they have my father in their clutches and as a result, we are now estranged.
This has caused me great pain.
I'm sorry to hear that. Perhaps you should contact Tovia Singer. He does help in these situations.
-
They are a cult that destroy Jewish souls and should be killed!
I am sorry to say that they have my father in their clutches and as a result, we are now estranged.
This has caused me great pain.
Wow I'm so sorry to hear that.
-
They are a cult that destroy Jewish souls and should be killed!
I am sorry to say that they have my father in their clutches and as a result, we are now estranged.
This has caused me great pain.
I know this is a small consolation; but it is interesting the number of 'Christians' I come across who don't believe that Jesus is the son of God. I'm sure he'll realise once he looks at the Christian dogma how illogical and irrational it is. How the whole idea of original sin seems to make little sense when one critically analyses it.
-
Yes Golden phasant he said this to gentiles belivers that they must only abide to the laws of Noah; JfJs don't tell that Jesus didn't came to abolish laws of Torah; so they as Jews must still obey all of 613 commandments atlest to the return of Meshias and fullfilment of all Tanath and NT prophecies.. :D
You're right they're neither Jews or Christians they're new religion like Samaritanes or Mormons who pick and choose from scriptures.
-
Yes Golden phasant he said this to gentiles belivers that they must only abide to the laws of Noah; JfJs don't tell that Jesus didn't came to abolish laws of Torah; so they as Jews must still obey all of 613 commandments atlest to the return of Meshias and fullfilment of all Tanath and NT prophecies.. :D
You're right they're neither Jews or Christians they're new religion like Samaritanes or Mormons who pick and choose from scriptures.
There was a documentary on Jesus and it was interesting that Christianity has not even the slightest hint of similarity with Judaism; infact, in the documentary, Christianity has an uncanny similarity to Buddhism (and Hinduism). I mean, lets think about it; Jesus, virgin birth, son of God, original sin etc. all sounds very much like a religion with Hindu outlook on life.
-
From a Christian point of view are Jews for Jesus heretics.
I don't write this to appeal to the Jews here, but because it is true.
The letter of Paulus to the Galater is very clear. You can't be a Jewish Christ.
A Christ is not bound to the ceremonial law, like holidays, sacrifices in the holy temple, kashruth etc.
He is free in the selection of the days to celebrate. Even the Sunday can be moved to another day i.e Wednesday, without problems. It is for Jews unthinkable to move i.e. the Shabbat to Wednesday.
From a Christian point of view it is a sin for Christians to obey Jewish holidays, because this days have had for Christians only the meaning to point to Jesus.
Paulus said, that you are not allowed to celebrate it, because this is indicating, that the Christians, who did so, are not believing in Jesus.
Paulus said to the Galater, that they are fallen out of the grace, because they did so. With other words: They are going to hell.
I think from a jewish point of view it is the same. No gentile has to obey Jewish holidays.
Jews for Jesus have a real problem. Neither they fulfill Christianity nor Judaism.
Chaim is right, they are from a Christian point of view a cult.
Jews for Jesus is a so called Christian movement aimed at fooling Jews who are disconnected from the Jewish community that they can be Jewish and beleive in Jesus Christ.
there is nothing wrong with believing in Jesus Christ. HOwever anyone who wishes to do that is simply defined a Christian..hence Christ..Christian..It's simple really...And if a Jew wishes to believe in Jesus as the Messiah..fine...but they are Christian..not Jewish...they aren't practicing Judaism..they are practicing Christianity..all the power to him..
So if someone comes along and says, "oh I'm Jewish, but I believe in Jesus." the answer should be, "No, you are a christian because you believe in Jesus."
And Jews for Jesus is just a sick sick way of saying you can be both..you can't.
-
They are a cult that destroy Jewish souls and should be killed!
I am sorry to say that they have my father in their clutches and as a result, we are now estranged.
This has caused me great pain.
I know this is a small consolation; but it is interesting the number of 'Christians' I come across who don't believe that Jesus is the son of G-d. I'm sure he'll realise once he looks at the Christian dogma how illogical and irrational it is. How the whole idea of original sin seems to make little sense when one critically analyses it.
I wouldnt' go there if I were you...
Religion/theology is really something private and everybody needs a different way to know Gd. I wouldn't go far as saying that christian is illogical...To us Jews it is illogical..but to christians it makes sense...and if it works for them to be decent human beings...then they are following the correct religion for themselves..
-
Dr Brown was Completely refuted in a debate with the brilliant Rabbi Dr Schochet.
ignore the site! but here is a link
http://www.therealmessiah.com/audio/IsJesusTheJewishMessiahDrBrownAndDrSchochetNew.mp3
-
From a Christian point of view it is a sin for Christians to obey Jewish holidays, because this days have had for Christians only the meaning to point to Jesus.
Paulus said, that you are not allowed to celebrate it, because this is indicating, that the Christians, who did so, are not believing in Jesus.
Paulus said to the Galater, that they are fallen out of the grace, because they did so. With other words: They are going to hell.
I don't know enough about Jews for Jesus, but your characterization of what Paul said is incorrect. Paul says that observing Jewish holidays and customs is a matter of choice, not forbidden.
What he said is that people who teach that you must abide by all Levitical law in order to have salvation are condemned, not that it is wrong to celebrate Jewish customs by choice.
Paul himself never renounced his membership in the strict Pharisaical sect or stopped keeping Torah, albeit this was due to personal choice--not because he felt he had to.
-
Paul said, that to the jews(i.e. when it comes to the jews) I am as a jew, so that I may win them over.
So from his mouth, that is a reason why he did it
Corinthians 9:20 - quoted here, 9:19-22
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
-
From a Christian point of view it is a sin for Christians to obey Jewish holidays, because this days have had for Christians only the meaning to point to Jesus.
Paulus said, that you are not allowed to celebrate it, because this is indicating, that the Christians, who did so, are not believing in Jesus.
Paulus said to the Galater, that they are fallen out of the grace, because they did so. With other words: They are going to hell.
I don't know enough about Jews for Jesus, but your characterization of what Paul said is incorrect. Paul says that observing Jewish holidays and customs is a matter of choice, not forbidden.
What he said is that people who teach that you must abide by all Levitical law in order to have salvation are condemned, not that it is wrong to celebrate Jewish customs by choice.
Paul himself never renounced his membership in the strict Pharisaical sect or stopped keeping Torah, albeit this was due to personal choice--not because he felt he had to.
I have to say it more clearly. Sorry.
Of course it is not a sin to eat a kosher meal, to be circumcised or even to eat lamb on eastern, but if a Christian is obeying a part of the Jewish law, except the moral teachings [not to talk against G-d himself, not to swear false, not to murder etc.], for religious reasons* it is clearly a sin according to Paul.
Galater 5.1 - 5.12
----------------------------------------------------
*I mean with this i. e. the Christian is celebrating Yom Kippur, Pessach etc. with the full relevancy of this holidays (or is circumcised in order to obey the law)
----------------------------------------------------
-
not sure if they still exist, but Jews for Judaism was/is an excellent anti-missionary group.
Yes they certainly do, in fact Rov Skobac spoke at my Shul about a month ago.
-
not sure if they still exist, but Jews for Judaism was/is an excellent anti-missionary group.
Yes they certainly do, in fact Rov Skobac spoke at my Shul about a month ago.
either him or another person saved my Hillel from going the wrong way. We had a lot of dumb liberal self hating Jews in my hillel and they considered the "messianic" jewish movement to be a viable one and that it had a right to be on the campus.
-
not sure if they still exist, but Jews for Judaism was/is an excellent anti-missionary group.
Yes they certainly do, in fact Rov Skobac spoke at my Shul about a month ago.
either him or another person saved my Hillel from going the wrong way. We had a lot of dumb liberal self hating Jews in my hillel and they considered the "messianic" jewish movement to be a viable one and that it had a right to be on the campus.
It was probably him. He's a great guy.
He has a friend who was in the Chaya Squad that has a necklace of Missionary teeth. ;D
-
I dont think that fighting missionaries physically will accomplish anything. We can and should debate them logically (actually send them and expecially the ones they are trying to soul snatch to the proper Rabbis and the lectures which clearly show the right path).
-
I dont think that fighting missionaries physically will accomplish anything. We can and should debate them logically (actually send them and expecially the ones they are trying to soul snatch to the proper Rabbis and the lectures which clearly show the right path).
I agree that it is ok to have a civil religious theological conversation with certain missionaries...but those conversations should be reserved for Jews who are comfortable with their knowledge of Judaism, like you, Tzvi :).
-
Ulrich--what Paul specifically condemns is Christians believing they must abide by Jewish customs in order to be saved. He never says it is wrong for anybody to observe Jewish customs by choice. Hang on and let me provide the applicable Scripture.
-
I dont think that fighting missionaries physically will accomplish anything. We can and should debate them logically (actually send them and expecially the ones they are trying to soul snatch to the proper Rabbis and the lectures which clearly show the right path).
I agree that it is ok to have a civil religious theological conversation with certain missionaries...but those conversations should be reserved for Jews who are comfortable with their knowledge of Judaism, like you, Tzvi :).
Thanks for the compliment, but I dont know if I personally would be qualified, to think of something of my own I would only say what I heard the great Hachamim say. I also would probably not get into it because sometimes the other side (for different things) uses retoric and goes around the subject where they would try to confuse and use big words in order to show they are right- Something that is usually common with many of the "others" - ex- philosopers, etc. But with the Hachamim for example Rabbi Mizrahi you get a straight clear answer and not something blurry and that appears to be true because they use big words (which tricks people into believing they are right because it seems smart).
-
they steal Jewish souls. Messies tend to be the lowest of people, they were overly weak and were able to be lead on a path to Yeshua
-
I dont think that fighting missionaries physically will accomplish anything. We can and should debate them logically (actually send them and expecially the ones they are trying to soul snatch to the proper Rabbis and the lectures which clearly show the right path).
I agree that it is ok to have a civil religious theological conversation with certain missionaries...but those conversations should be reserved for Jews who are comfortable with their knowledge of Judaism, like you, Tzvi :).
Thanks for the compliment, but I dont know if I personally would be qualified, to think of something of my own I would only say what I heard the great Hachamim say. I also would probably not get into it because sometimes the other side (for different things) uses retoric and goes around the subject where they would try to confuse and use big words in order to show they are right- Something that is usually common with many of the "others" - ex- philosopers, etc. But with the Hachamim for example Rabbi Mizrahi you get a straight clear answer and not something blurry and that appears to be true because they use big words (which tricks people into believing they are right because it seems smart).
no, you're right..you have a point. If it was a discussion with someone frank and honest and trying to steer you in the wrong direction using big words or tactics to fool you, you can pull off a decent conversation.
as for me, my arguement always goes, "To each their own..whatever works for you, is fine wiht me as long as you are a decent human being." end of conversation...and then they can go on and on on truth and this and that blah blah blah...and I'll answer "Good for you..whatever floats your bubble." and then they'll say, "I'll pray for you." and I'll say, "Thank you, for the blessing. Gd bless you too."
and that'll be it... and you know why that'll be it? Because I"m comfortable with my beliefs so far...
As far as fellow Jews..I love hearing what an observant jew has to say about Judaism..always somethign to learn and to question and to argue about in teh spirit of Gd and Torah.
-
i once proved this missionary guy wrong at the end he called me a worshiper of the devil :o
sounds like anus-T
oddly enough, he tried to pull off that crap on me too trying to disprove Judaism...and I simply said, "whatever floats your bubble..." and that was the end of the convesation...because he knew deep inside that I was not penetratable to other theologies.
-
I'm all for treating people with respect but why do they have to knock on my doors early saturdays to wake me up and at dinner time with my family? I mean come on. I once told something to a group of missionaries, well, let's just say they never came pass my building ever again let alone knock at my apartment.
-
do you know there is a group called Jews for allah
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/
the first guy is now a muslim terrorist
Sounds like a Nazi muSSlim site to me! >:(
-
last summer couple of my friends and i saw a bunch of them in Brooklyn we attacked verbally and physically, they themselves are brainwashed
I was one of them we destroyed their fliers and their van!!
-
do you know there is a group called Jews for allah
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/
the first guy is now a muslim terrorist
Sounds like a Nazi muSSlim site to me! >:(
If I remember correctly, did you know that guy pictured in the site was actually a drug dealer? He converted to islam in prison.
-
do you know there is a group called Jews for allah
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/
the first guy is now a muslim terrorist
Sounds like a Nazi muSSlim site to me! >:(
If I remember correctly, did you know that guy pictured in the site was actually a drug dealer? He converted to islam in prison.
Well, he sure looks like a worn out drug dealer.
-
That guy pictured on that site is the same yusuf al khattab guy.. the same khayburkhaybur / seefouratyourdoor guy on youtube.
a youtube clip from a tv interview, has him praising a female suicide bomber as his sister in islam.
I don`t think he was ever in prison
He is the only jew for allah. There was one person on that site that might have a jewish ancestor.. None had a jewish mother, except al khattab.
The site was basically an attempt to be as successful as jews for jesus. A very unsuccessful attempt!
There was one confused jew there who was a muslim temporarily, then returned to judaism.
-
i once proved this missionary guy wrong at the end he called me a worshiper of the devil :o
My father once said to me... "It breaks my heart that I will be in heaven and you will be in hell." I simply could not continue to hear that kind of thing from my father and that's why we don't talk anymore.
For a while, he was simply a Christian, he was tolerable then and we could have a relationship. But once the JfJ got him, it got ugly fast. In every conversation, nothing but Jesus Jesus Jesus and nothing I said would have any effect, in every instance, in every way, it was a constant assault on me, and my beliefs.
-
A question posed to Chaim Ben Pesach by JTF Forum poster “Hidden Author”, on an ASK JTF show, in February, 2008. Question and answer paraphrased by Zev Ben Yisrael “YESHA”.
Q: “You may dislike missionaries, but they are driven by a missionaries and belief that all humanity including the Jews needs C for salvation. It is unsavoury to attack those missionaries and those who attack them silence them because they are unable to counter them in a debate”.
Answer: A number of points, pious Jews won’t have much difficulty beating missionaries in a legitimate debate! It would be quite easy to defeat them in a debate. Missionaries know little or nothing about the history of Judaism or Christianity for that matter. They certainly don’t know what the Bible means, especially in its original language. They don’t understand it. If Christians wish to go to fellow Christians, that’s OK and there is not problem with that. But if Jews went knocking on doors of Christians and tell them unless you become a Jew you are going to hell, one would understand if violence would break out. It is therefore hyprocartical for those who attack Jews who attack missionaries in a physical manner.
They, Christian missionaries and some other Christians are outraged when this happens, but they think they could attack the Jewish religion and get away with it! Jews are doing a favour for Jews, Christians, gentiles and all people who want honesty, when they physically attack these missionaries and fraudsters.
“Jews for J” is a cult, not reflective of genuine Christianity, which leading Bible-believing Christian leaders over the years have attacked and condemned these vicious, low-life tactics as terrible, giving a name to Christians. These are not sincere people, but evil people who are lying. They deliberately twist and misinterpret scripture, by lying and distorting; they are misrepresenting, misleading and are causing fraud. These people committing fraud and lying are criminals. “Jews for J” often dress as religious Jews and target assimilated Jews and Jews who don’t know any better and twisting and lying about verses in the Bible. These guys dress as rabbis and mislead these Jews, by deliberate misinterpretation and mistranslation, when they don’t believe in any of that. If the law is not going to punish them, then Jews have the right to punish them and hard! This cult deliberately distorts Bible verses to steal Jewish souls, by committing spiritual and religious fraud. That’s a crime!
-
i once proved this missionary guy wrong at the end he called me a worshiper of the devil :o
My father once said to me... "It breaks my heart that I will be in heaven and you will be in hell." I simply could not continue to hear that kind of thing from my father and that's why we don't talk anymore.
For a while, he was simply a Christian, he was tolerable then and we could have a relationship. But once the JfJ got him, it got ugly fast. In every conversation, nothing but Jesus Jesus Jesus and nothing I said would have any effect, in every instance, in every way, it was a constant assault on me, and my beliefs.
:'(
-
i once proved this missionary guy wrong at the end he called me a worshiper of the devil :o
My father once said to me... "It breaks my heart that I will be in heaven and you will be in hell." I simply could not continue to hear that kind of thing from my father and that's why we don't talk anymore.
For a while, he was simply a Christian, he was tolerable then and we could have a relationship. But once the JfJ got him, it got ugly fast. In every conversation, nothing but Jesus Jesus Jesus and nothing I said would have any effect, in every instance, in every way, it was a constant assault on me, and my beliefs.
please my friend, make your father watch the video its titled "The Debate" its on the homepage on torahanytime.com if you want the link ill post it
Yonatan, did you hear the debate I liked to.. How do you think they compare?
http://www.therealmessiah.com/audio/IsJesusTheJewishMessiahDrBrownAndDrSchochetNew.mp3
That is actually the leading J4J missionary, Dr Brown himself, defeated in debate.
And it`s a very fairly moderated debate.
What do you think of Rabbi Dr J I Schochet?
-
Michael L. Brown a Jewish Believer in Jesus has written 4 volumes
called "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus"
Has his 4 volumes been Refuted..
I heard he is going to come out with a 5th volume
http://torahanytime.com/rav_mizrachi.html
11/07/07 The Debate - Rabbi vs. Christian Part 1
11/07/07 The Debate - Rabbi vs. Christian Part 2
You will find your answers. Also if you want more you can just locate Rav Tovia Singer on that site, who also has a lot of anti-missionary Shiurim. But definitly check out this famous debate.
Rabbi Mizrachi really hammered this guy. That was impressive.
-
Michael L. Brown a Jewish Believer in Jesus has written 4 volumes
called "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus"
Has his 4 volumes been Refuted..
I heard he is going to come out with a 5th volume
http://torahanytime.com/rav_mizrachi.html
11/07/07 The Debate - Rabbi vs. Christian Part 1
11/07/07 The Debate - Rabbi vs. Christian Part 2
You will find your answers. Also if you want more you can just locate Rav Tovia Singer on that site, who also has a lot of anti-missionary Shiurim. But definitly check out this famous debate.
Rabbi Mizrachi really hammered this guy. That was impressive.
the guy at the end said he was Jewish, i think he realized himself that he was wrong
lol, when he said that I was shocked actually.
-
Rabbi Mizrachi really hammered this guy. That was impressive.
Great! I'm soooo listening to this now!!!
I greatly LOATHE michael brown!!! Him and his lying tongue that destroys so many Jewish souls! He is a terrible person!
I think michael brown was the other video. Rabbi Shochet debates him. Rabbi Mizrachi debates another guy who I don't know who he is. But I liked Rabbi Shochet's also. The best part for me was when he says, "LEAVE THE JEWS ALONE!"
-
i once proved this missionary guy wrong at the end he called me a worshiper of the devil :o
My father once said to me... "It breaks my heart that I will be in heaven and you will be in hell." I simply could not continue to hear that kind of thing from my father and that's why we don't talk anymore.
For a while, he was simply a Christian, he was tolerable then and we could have a relationship. But once the JfJ got him, it got ugly fast. In every conversation, nothing but Jesus Jesus Jesus and nothing I said would have any effect, in every instance, in every way, it was a constant assault on me, and my beliefs.
please my friend, make your father watch the video its titled "The Debate" its on the homepage on torahanytime.com if you want the link ill post it
Yonatan, did you hear the debate I liked to.. How do you think they compare?
http://www.therealmessiah.com/audio/IsJesusTheJewishMessiahDrBrownAndDrSchochetNew.mp3
That is actually the leading J4J missionary, Dr Brown himself, defeated in debate.
And it`s a very fairly moderated debate.
What do you think of Rabbi Dr J I Schochet?
Q Q did you hear
http://torahanytime.com/rav_mizrachi.html
11/07/07 The Debate - Rabbi vs. Christian Part 1
11/07/07 The Debate - Rabbi vs. Christian Part 2
Thank you everyone, for your kind words and support, and information!
I am watching the Debate right now.
-
yes, I heard some of the rav mizrachi one.. was quite funny, with a little picture in the corner showing the christian's reaction.. rav mizrachi made some good arguments.. and the other guy's reaction to them was amusing.
Regarding rabbi dr jacob immanuel schochet (who debated dr brown)
Here are 2 pictures to go with the voice!
http://www.iltsp.org/Images/PortraitSchochet.gif
http://www.chabad.org/media/images/52/DTLt525337.jpg
very logical guy..
He comes from an unbroken chain of rabbis stretching back 2 centuries!!!!
His son is a rabbi in london.. quite entertaining..
But this guy, Rabbi Dr Jacob Immanuel Schochet, he is like the King of them!
Dr brown gets a bit boring in parts, so I skip some of his stuff sometimes, he was just trying to win him over with love 'cos sall his arguments were failing. Rabbi Schochet has a very distinctive voice..and went through him like a knife through butter.
I think it was actually a christian and part messianic audience
Very fairly moderated. Organised. academically done debate.
-
I do not like Jews for Jesus. Their activities do more harm to Christianity than good. First century real missionaries spent more time with God in prayer and fasting but these people spend more time on streets. The relationship between Messianic Jews and Mainstream Christians are not excellent either. Some of the Messianic Jewish leaders have started developing "Messianic Halacha" which has no place in Christianity.
Christians cannot use the Tanak which is based upon the Masoretic text because only in 6 places the New Testament authors quote the Masoretic text. Rest of the quotes were from Dead Sea Scrolls/Septuagint (not exacly but some different manuscript close to DSS/LXX which was accessible to the first centurty Christians). Therefore it is obvious that the NT writers used a different manuscript of the Tanach. That is the reason the debates between Jewish and Christian scholars are futile and often counter productive. Jewish scholars are masters in Hebrew and when they quote from the Masoretic text it does not parallel with the greek of the NT. I checked some verses quoted in NT from the Tanach. They were similar to the greek Tanach/DSS but give a totally different meaning when compared to Hebrew.
That is the reason, I generally do not like debates but if there is some scholarly presentation I read it for research purposes like this one:
http://www.geocities.com/nakdimonspage/letsgetcritical.html
-
But wouldn't that cause a big problem for Christians' belief?
You basically just said, Christians cite from a Greek "translation" of the Hebrew text not the text itself, therefore of 'course the rabbis are masters of Hebrew they know the Hebrew text but the Christians know the greek.' The problem for messianics is that the interpretations of the greek are of course not authentic to the true meaning! In reality, this just shows that they (the Christians) got the interpretation wrong if they try to cite and interpret from a greek "translation" rather than the text itself and without a knowledge of Hebrew. The original text is in Hebrew and to understand Tanakh requires knowledge of Hebrew.
-
I do not like Jews for Jesus. Their activities do more harm to Christianity than good. First century real missionaries spent more time with G-d in prayer and fasting but these people spend more time on streets. The relationship between Messianic Jews and Mainstream Christians are not excellent either. Some of the Messianic Jewish leaders have started developing "Messianic Halacha" which has no place in Christianity.
Christians cannot use the Tanach which is based upon the Masoretic text because only in 6 places the New Testament authors quote the Masoretic text. Rest of the quotes were from Dead Sea Scrolls/Septuagint (not exacly but some different manuscript close to DSS/LXX which was accessible to the first centurty Christians). Therefore it is obvious that the NT writers used a different manuscript of the Tanach. That is the reason the debates between Jewish and Christian scholars are futile and often counter productive. Jewish scholars are masters in Hebrew and when they quote from the Masoretic text it does not parallel with the greek of the NT. I checked some verses quoted in NT from the Tanach. They were similar to the greek Tanach/DSS but give a totally different meaning when compared to Hebrew.
That is the reason, I generally do not like debates but if there is some scholarly presentation I read it for research purposes like this one:
http://www.geocities.com/nakdimonspage/letsgetcritical.html
I have never heard of this. ???
-
Rest of the quotes were from Dead Sea Scrolls/Septuagint (not exacly but some different manuscript close to DSS/LXX which was accessible to the first centurty Christians).
THE SEPTUAGINT was transalated by Rabbis into Greek the Dead sea scrols were in Heb and aramiac
-
Rest of the quotes were from Dead Sea Scrolls/Septuagint (not exacly but some different manuscript close to DSS/LXX which was accessible to the first centurty Christians).
THE SEPTUAGINT was transalated by Rabbis into Greek the Dead sea scrols were in Heb and aramiac
So which translation is closer to dead sea scrolls The Masoteric or SEPTUAGINT? Do dead sea scrolls contain entire Tanath? Is anybody using this as oficial version? Christains in first century were diaspora Jews using SEPTUAGINT which post Temple Judaism gradualu stoped to use after counclil of Yawneh around 90 CE. And JFJ are using methods of another anoying sect the Jehova witnesess; they use only their version of scriptures and claim that both Jews and Christians are going to hell.