JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: RanterMaximus on August 17, 2008, 05:53:52 PM
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For me it's just a matter of finally a church that I can become content with. Too many churches today, at least from my experiences, have become nothing more than a type of club where the emphasis is on how much money they can raise, how many members they can get, with little being put into a strong message about G-d.
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Its not important at all...lol :D Well, I use to go to church (s) but they tried to forceful indoctrinate me, I just like the harp that was playing. How come they dont leave you alone? I was with my friend, and they were trying to pray some devil out of me. I got really pissed, b/c the guy (the prayer man, whoever that was) he looked at me, and said: DEVIL? I said: WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT?? I am NOT DEVIL, I am Paulette Anne!! And I stormed out. So, so much for that. :o :o :o
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Church for me is WAY too important! It makes me feel save and I go to church whenever I feel the need to go and pray!
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I would say not at all. Never went to one, and not planning to.
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I dont go
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I would say not at all. Never went to one, and not planning to.
I dont think this topic is directed at the jewish members because if it was it would say shul
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You have to find the right church/temple with the right pastor/rabbi. I love my church, we are very active. I am a trustee, on the board, head of security, do layout of brochures & cards, and build the multi-media presentations every week. My wife is in the choir and leads the 3 children's choirs that we have.
I also have a full time job which requires 60-70 hours per week. But church is that important to me. I will do what is asked of me even if I have to cut into my sleep time. I support our church with our time and financially.
God has given me so much and He asks for so little. I never new joy and the peace of contentment till I made God an integral part of my life.
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I changed the subject to Temple to include everyone.
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I changed the subject to Temple to include everyone.
How is that for everyone I don't go to temple couldn't you have Church/Shul
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How about "building/gathering place for all about God"
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Shamgar, I do envy you.
I was also very active in my church, Catholic church. Both my kids attended the Catholic school and one just graduated from Catholic high school(even if I was not Catholic I could not trust the public schools here). Anyway, at my church I was also very active, ran the youth sports program, Cub Scout program, was a church usher, used to be a lectern, volunteered numerous hours for school and parish events. Through all this I got much closer to the spiritual leaders of the church, the ones standing on altars in robes telling us all how sinful WE are. Problem is when I got to know these people on a more personal level I also got to know how deep their hypocrisy was. I know they are only human and make mistakes but this was not a matter of a mistake here and a mistake there, it was CHARACTER which I found questionable.
When parents are busting their butts to keep the school running get told that not only will tuition rise but services will be cut because the parish is having financial difficulties but a huge new statue of the pope is built in front of the church, I have issues with that.
When we are told that they want to cut certain youth programs because they do not THINK that these youth are going to church though we practically had to beg certian priests just to show their face at some events of these youth, I had issues with that.
When things get done behind people's backs just because they are not in the inner inner circle, no matter who else gets hurt by the trickle down effects, I have issues with that.
I could go on with many many examples but I was just turned off by the thought that hypocrites were preaching to me about salvation.
I have not been involved for a few years now, and yes, maybe it was just this particular church, but the experiences soured me on not my faith as a Christian, that I still have and have in the way I believe is right, but on man made religious mandates. Not saying I am right or wrong, just stating my experience and opinion.
Maybe this is what is meant by your body is a temple, it is not a building, it is in you.
For those of you who do attend church, temple, etc. I am happy for you. As for me, maybe I just became jaded with age, not sure.
One thing for certian though, you will never see me in a mosque, unless it is for demolition purposes.
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Firster, I can appreciate where you are coming from. I won't knock or promote one Christian denomination over another but noone in my church has ever called me a sinner or anyone else. We don't do that. We teach from the Bible on how we should strive to live in a more Godly manner and follow his commandments. Never would someone, especially the pastor, call out someone for a sin they committed. We support them and lead by example. We have fornicators, ex-criminals, a 16 year old girl who is pregnant, and members that have had battles with alcohol and drugs.
I think there are problems when a church becomes a business instead of a place of worship. We are a non-aligned independant Baptist denomination. Our pastor is the head of the church, he makes the decisions, and answers to God, not some committee in some remote metropolis that you pay hefty dues to.
Our church is small by most standards. We have about 700 members and typically about 400 average at worship service. I am very proud of our facility, it just appraised for over 6 million dollars. We have a beautiful state of the art media system, wonderful classrooms, nurseries choir rooms and other facilities. We have 3 gospel quartets and blessed with 2 solo singers that sing professionally. Our membership built that church. No one was forced to give to the building funds, people just gave when it was needed. Some gave money, others are business owners and craftsmen and gave of thier time, materials and skills.
Keep looking when you find the right church, you will know it and it will be a blessing. Firster, I will keep you in my prayers. God bless you.
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I had a teacher call me the devil at the church I used to go to.
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I had a teacher call me the devil at the church I used to go to.
Yep, I can understand that... :::D
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I had a teacher call me the devil at the church I used to go to.
Yep, I can understand that... :::D
Hey Hey Hey ;D
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I had a teacher call me the devil at the church I used to go to.
Yep, I can understand that... :::D
Hey Hey Hey ;D
Where are the Catholics when you need them? A little holy water splattered on you and a couple phrases from the Exorcist couldn't hurt.
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I had a teacher call me the devil at the church I used to go to.
Yep, I can understand that... :::D
Hey Hey Hey ;D
Where are the Catholics when you need them? A little holy water splattered on you and a couple phrases from the Exorcist couldn't hurt.
I am Catholic
Peace be with you ;D
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I had a teacher call me the devil at the church I used to go to.
Yep, I can understand that... :::D
Hey Hey Hey ;D
Where are the Catholics when you need them? A little holy water splattered on you and a couple phrases from the Exorcist couldn't hurt.
I am Catholic
Peace be with you ;D
Well then Go and Sin no more.
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I had a teacher call me the devil at the church I used to go to.
Yep, I can understand that... :::D
Sometimes I just crack myself up.
Hey Hey Hey ;D
Where are the Catholics when you need them? A little holy water splattered on you and a couple phrases from the Exorcist couldn't hurt.
I am Catholic
Peace be with you ;D
Well then Go and Sin no more.
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I had a teacher call me the devil at the church I used to go to.
Yep, I can understand that... :::D
Hey Hey Hey ;D
Where are the Catholics when you need them? A little holy water splattered on you and a couple phrases from the Exorcist couldn't hurt.
I am Catholic
Peace be with you ;D
Well then Go and Sin no more.
To hard :::D
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I had a teacher call me the devil at the church I used to go to.
Yep, I can understand that... :::D
Hey Hey Hey ;D
Where are the Catholics when you need them? A little holy water splattered on you and a couple phrases from the Exorcist couldn't hurt.
I am Catholic
Peace be with you ;D
Well then Go and Sin no more.
To hard :::D
Need the email or phone number of your priest.
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I had a teacher call me the devil at the church I used to go to.
Yep, I can understand that... :::D
Hey Hey Hey ;D
Where are the Catholics when you need them? A little holy water splattered on you and a couple phrases from the Exorcist couldn't hurt.
I am Catholic
Peace be with you ;D
Well then Go and Sin no more.
To hard :::D
Need the email or phone number of your priest.
NO
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Hey do you guys really have the Ark hidden away under the Vatican?? ???
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Hey do you guys really have the Ark hidden away under the Vatican?? ???
NO NO NO
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Hey do you guys really have the Ark hidden away under the Vatican?? ???
NO NO NO
It's on Mount ararat
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No No, the other Ark....
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc14/roadrunner_876/Ark_of_the_Covenant.jpg)
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No No, the other Ark....
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc14/roadrunner_876/Ark_of_the_Covenant.jpg)
you should have specified then
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I should have phrased the subject heading better. I indeed meant Jews. O0
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No No, the other Ark....
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc14/roadrunner_876/Ark_of_the_Covenant.jpg)
you should have specified then
I did see the "Jesus Boat" at Nof Ginnosar". Pretty neat story. Not as big as the Ark, (Noah's), but still pretty cool.
http://www.jesusboat.com/boat.php
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I am still attempting to find a church I feel comfortable with...
Like someone else has said here, it seems MOST of them are all about MONEY (Mammon worship)....
If you don't have ALOT of it, well, you aren't a wanted member of the "club".
Its a Country Club mentality and truthfully, it makes me sick....
Im sick and tired of it.
Jesus Himself did not own a car or a house...and traveled from town to town...
Anyway......
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For me it's just a matter of finally a church that I can become content with. Too many churches today, at least from my experiences, have become nothing more than a type of club where the emphasis is on how much money they can raise, how many members they can get, with little being put into a strong message about G-d.
It's the most important thing in the world. As soon as we rebuild it (G-d let it be soon), I will hopefully go to the Temple all the time!
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For me it's just a matter of finally a church that I can become content with. Too many churches today, at least from my experiences, have become nothing more than a type of club where the emphasis is on how much money they can raise, how many members they can get, with little being put into a strong message about G-d.
It's the most important thing in the world. As soon as we rebuild it (G-d let it be soon), I will hopefully go to the Temple all the time!
I'm so glad you said that. ;D I get tired of people asking me which Temple I go to. I just want to say "There is no temple! All we have left is a wall!" Too many reformers out there calling a synagogue a temple. Shul or synagogue is the way to go. O0
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I changed the subject to Temple to include everyone.
How is that for everyone I don't go to temple couldn't you have Church/Shul
There are many things that I could have called it. I guess there is no one word that will make everyone happy. Of course there is correct terminology. "Shul" is technically incorrect. The correct way to say a Jewish house of Worship in Hebrew is a "Bait Knesset". The problem is that most people won't know if you call it a "Bait Knesset" instead.
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I changed the subject to Temple to include everyone.
How is that for everyone I don't go to temple couldn't you have Church/Shul
There are many things that I could have called it. I guess there is no one word that will make everyone happy. Of course there is correct terminology. "Shul" is technically incorrect. The correct way to say a Jewish house of Worship in Hebrew is a "Bait Knesset". The problem is that most people won't know if you call it a "Bait Knesset" instead.
Err no,
Given that Americanhero is not jewish, it is ridiculous for a non-jew to refer to a shul as a Beit Knesset. It may even give the impression that they are jewish.
There is an english word. SYNAGOGUE
jews will usually say Shul.
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Since modern day synagogues are supposed to represent the Holy Jewish Temple (Beit Hamikdash) that was destroyed, I'd have to say that prayer and attending services is a pillar of (Orthodox) Judaism. There are hundreds and hundreds of scholars throughout Jewish history who wrote volumes about the laws and significance of praying with 10 men in a synagogue. I can only speak for Orthodox Jews, however.
As far as Christianity goes, the only experiences I've had with churches were through watching some of my favorite shows like 7th Heaven, the Simpsons, and other things on TV and in movies. But I must admit, growing up as a nice Orthodox Jewish boy and attending Yeshiva Day Schools, I still haven't come close to mastering the art of going to shul :-[ I'm working on it though.
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So its clear,there will be no churches when the 3rd temple is built,for as it is written ""I will make the people pure of speech that they all call upon the name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose." (Zephaniah 3:9).And "Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have I not announced unto thee of old, and declared it? And ye are My witnesses. Is there a G-d beside Me? Yea, there is no Rock; I know not any.{Isa 44.8}also see {Isa 45,20} Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations; they have no knowledge that carry the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a g-d that cannot save. {I find this verse fantastic}
In conclusion not with standing the messianic prophecy YET to be fulfilled,we see that there is no other co-eternal creator with Hashem,his is one and alone,we also find that images such as goats, calves, crosses and images of men in stone or wood will no longer be sought after as g-ds,but more importantly the prophets speak of the recommencing of temple sacrifice,which of coarse does fit with a specific "western religion"
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Going to THE TEMPLE, or to Shul?
If we had the Holy Temple I would be there and I would be there with gusto. I love Hashem and would love to be in his presence and be able to sacrifice what I have to his cause. We dont have the Temple today and we can only dream and do mitzvahs in the hope that we merit seeing the rebuilding of the Holy Temple.
I go to shul when I can. I work very hard and cant be there in time for the morning minyan. I often go to the Shabbatons my Orthodox Rabbi has at the local University. It is very nice and we are going to the first one of the new school Rabbi who is a Chabad rabbi. I also go to another Chabad rabbi in the area and will probably be doing Yom Kippur this year with that Chabad minyan. Shabbat sometimes I do at home because I dont drive on Shabbat except in emergencies. I have recently been davening the morning Shachris service at home.
muman613
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I find public prayers incredibly boring and I never go to the synagogue.
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I find public prayers incredibly boring and I never go to the synagogue.
maybe what you experienced is like in britain, we have large shuls with a slow service.
find a younger congregation, like people < 40 or < 30. The number of people is smaller, and the davening is more energised.
their entire philosophy is different.
Large shuls, are often old, and from an older generation, the davening is often s-l-o-w, all drawn out, and you either have a proper chazzan, or somebody that thinks he is a proper chazzan, and a congregation that wants a proper chazzan and may be nostalgic for one. Lots of chazzanut. Not much participation from conregants. Lots of them sitting around listening to the chazzan's voice. The style is going out of vogue. The generations now are more religious thanks to jewish outreach organisations, and they are more interested in focussed davening than the chazzanut.
A rabbi once made the observation, he referenced the beginning of the amida (elokainu velokai avotainu..), and said that there are 2 ways to follow G-d.
following the g-d of our fathers, and following your G-d.
the 50+ generation were following the G-d of their fathers, just wanting to be traditional.. (I think he was being polite, he didn't want to offend the people of 50+ that he was speaking to).
The <40 generation(s) are following Their G-d. they have personalised judaism to suit themselves (within the boundaries of orthodoxy).. they have made it their own. (it seems to me that the slow drawn out service is more of a "i'm doing this bit of suffering each week , paying the price, that's my bit, so i'm staying within the fold, so my father won't turn in his grave". It's not much of a religious experience).
There are some religious people in big shuls, that pray every day but still they don't mind a sing song if it's only once a week.
How people pray on a regular morning in shul is completely different, much faster because they want to be ready for work. So even a big shul will get it over and done with.
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I find public prayers incredibly boring and I never go to the synagogue.
You should go to a Sefardi shul. Very livly. Go to the Selihot prayers this month, also even the regular prayers- its uplifting.
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I find public prayers incredibly boring and I never go to the synagogue.
Then the important thing is to find one's that are not boring. If you are like me, standing in a crowded room and listening to prayers that I have no clue what is being said makes things boring. When everyone sings the well known prayers in unison, then they are not boring at all. I sure do lose interest though when everyone mumbles at their own pace or when everyone sings out of sync. That is why I like Friday night services before than the Saturday morning ones. We sing Yidid Nefesh and LaChad Dodi and the services are not as long. It is only recently that I started going to both Friday night and Saturday morning services. If you find the Saturday services boring, I would recommend trying Friday night services as a start. Once you get the hang of the Friday night services, the Saturday morning ones will become more appealing.
I also recommend that you look around for the right synagogue. Synagogue's are not one size fits all. Each one is different and even within a type of synagogue such as a Sefardi one or a Chabad one, things are conducted differently.
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I find public prayers incredibly boring and I never go to the synagogue.
You should go to a Sefaradi shul. Very livly. Go to the Selihot prayers this month, also even the regular prayers- its uplifting.
one shouldn't pick and choose his minhag based on the service he prefers.
there are lively ashkenazi services too.. many smaller shuls have them.
sephardim , just like ashkenazim, also have the big shuls with the long drawn out service, and the small ones with the livelier services.
I don't know if zelhar is ashkenazi or sephardi, but I don't tihnk you'd like it if sephardim didn't like the service in their shul, and ashkenazim were taking advantage of it and telling them to come to ashkenazi shuls instead. And, as if -that's- the problem
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qq- usually Sefardi shuls are livly. I mean I never have been in or heard of a boring Sefardi shul. (and the big ones, are even more exciting, becuase more people). No offense to Askenazim, but the style is different. Even though their are parts where everyone prays and sings together, it is not to the extent that Sefardim have.
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I'm Ashkenazi but I am not too particular about what Schul to go if any as I know very little about prayers anyway. There are both kind of schuls nearby and both are attended mainly by elderly people, especially the Ashkenazis where I think the average age of a regular attender is 80...
The thing is that I don't like the idea of prayer altogether. To me it seems a better idea to address God individually rather than by preset times and texts. I don't think I can identify with each preset prayer so what's the point of joining in such a prayer ?
Anyway attending Schul in Sabbat is out of the question from my part, at most I might go in the high holidays.
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qq- usually Sefaradi shuls are livly. I mean I never have been in or heard of a boring Sefaradi shul. (and the big ones, are even more exciting, becuase more people). No offense to Askenazim, but the style is different. Even though their are parts where everyone prays and sings together, it is not to the extent that Sefaradim have.
come to the UK and i'll send you to the most boring shul you've ever seen. It's sephardi.
it's a very old shul.
They have a chazzan that elongates the service and sings more than any chazzan in any ashkenazi shul. Of course, there are more old ashkenazi shuls than old sephardi ones. Hence your statistic that usually sephardi shuls are lively. But avoid the old shuls
Point is.. There are many many young communities with lively shuls. The big old shuls are going out of fashion.
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I'm Ashkenazi but I am not too particular about what Schul to go if any as I know very little about prayers anyway. There are both kind of schuls nearby and both are attended mainly by elderly people, especially the Ashkenazis where I think the average age of a regular attender is 80...
The thing is that I don't like the idea of prayer altogether. To me it seems a better idea to address G-d individually rather than by preset times and texts. I don't think I can identify with each preset prayer so what's the point of joining in such a prayer ?
this 80+ shul is precisely the type of shul you should avoid - in favour of a younger lively one.
the small lively ones are quite individual, alot of it is each person praying with kavanah(concentration) There's an atmosphere of individual concentration, like for many people a library facilitates study of books, because of the atmosphere.
I am not talking about with a big shul. The atmosphere in a small focussed shul is completely different. I wouldn't call it lively.. But focussed.
Anyway attending Schul in Sabbat is out of the question from my part, at most I might go in the high holidays.
the problem with doing that is you are seeing the longest most boring service!
this is why alot of people only go twice a year or 3/4/5 times a year, and it actually puts them off going weekly. By going the few times a year, that's their quota for the year.
they've paid their dues!
they've done their bit!
they've done the travail to ensure that their father and grandfather and great grandfathers won't turn in their grave and say you've gone completely off the rails! 'cos when you go up there(i.e. when you die) you can say "Ah, but I always went to shul on the 'high holy days' " !! and hopefully you didn't marry out, and better, that you married and married jewish!
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Shalom,
I am a bit perplexed by the lack of enthusiasm for the community. The whole idea of shul is that the communal prayer is so much more powerful than the individual prayer. The power of the Tzibbur is that we are davening together for a common goal. I am sorry if your shul experience has been boring. Perhaps it would do you some good to study the prayers, the significance of them, and try to take something with you for your concentration {kevannah} when you daven. It is important to feel the worlds, to make them a part of yourself. You should concentrate on your prayer, and be aware of the community so that you can say your Amens and join in the singing prayers. I have improved much in the last five years and now keep up with the hebrew prayers. I have studied the meanings and brought books on each of the prayers and their deep, kabbalistic meanings.
Our siddurs are full of very special words, not just mumbo jumbo. The men of the great assembly knew what was essential for the Jewish neshama {soul} and composed pieces which speak to Hashem on many mystical levels. I cherish these words and attempt to sing them to Hashem each day.
I have grown to love my community even though we are not all the same. We have some Sephardim, some Chabad, some Persian, and we all share our minhag. We also have different political views and I still love them. I feel that the community is what Judaism is and to take the importance of our fellow Jews out of our prayers make us just like the goyim.
muman613
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one shouldn't pick and choose his minhag based on the service he prefers.
I disagree. The most important thing is to go.
Anyway attending Schul in Sabbat is out of the question from my part, at most I might go in the high holidays.
You're missing out. I would recommend a Chabad one. Not one with all orthodox members, but one of the congregations that reach out and have members from all Jewish backgrounds. I know Q_Q_ and Tzvi won't like what I have to say and I'm not advocating that people drive, but go to one where most of the members do.
Go to a Friday night service instead of a Saturday morning one and then stay for the meal afterwards. You will have interesting conversations with people at the dinner table. If you choose the right congregation, this will not be boring and will serve as a step towards becoming more familiar with the services.
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one shouldn't pick and choose his minhag based on the service he prefers.
I disagree. The most important thing is to go.
you disagree do you?
i'm glad that you didn't do a good job stating your disagreement.
Anyway attending Schul in Sabbat is out of the question from my part, at most I might go in the high holidays.
You're missing out. I would recommend a Chabad one. Not one with all orthodox members, but one of the congregations that reach out and have members from all Jewish backgrounds. I know Q_Q_ and Tzvi won't like what I have to say and I'm not advocating that people drive, but go to one where most of the members do.
Go to a Friday night service instead of a Saturday morning one and then stay for the meal afterwards. You will have interesting conversations with people at the dinner table. If you choose the right congregation, this will not be boring and will serve as a step towards becoming more familiar with the services.
whatever floats your boat.
I'm sure a motley crew shul would not be boring. It may be very interesting, but so would any other oddball experience. No harm in trying it, but it's worth trying a normal shul too(and not a big one. A small focussed one).
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one shouldn't pick and choose his minhag based on the service he prefers.
I disagree. The most important thing is to go.
you disagree do you?
i'm glad that you didn't do a good job stating your disagreement.
This is the type of philosophy that Rabbi Hillel would have supported. One of his big things was the debate about how the Shma had to be said. His ruling was that it doesn't matter how it is said as long as it is done.
I'm sure a motley crew shul would not be boring. It may be very interesting, but so would any other oddball experience. No harm in trying it, but it's worth trying a normal shul too(and not a big one. A small focussed one).
As long as it is legitimate, there should be no problem. The reform and conservative don't practice Judaism, but Chabad is perfectly legitimate.
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I'm sure a motley crew shul would not be boring. It may be very interesting, but so would any other oddball experience. No harm in trying it, but it's worth trying a normal shul too(and not a big one. A small focussed one).
As long as it is legitimate, there should be no problem. The reform and conservative don't practice Judaism, but Chabad is perfectly legitimate.
[/quote]
legitimate is only rule number 1
you can go very wrong even within legitimate.
The rabbi and the congregants can make a huge difference. We are talking about the experience here. Not just "is it halachically acceptable".
Just like any shul. One chabad shul may have a rabbi you like, another one may have one that you don't like.
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Just like any shul. One chabad shul may have a rabbi you like, another one may have one that you don't like.
That's kind of what I'm saying, except I'm talking about the entire congregation and it's not mostly a factor of who you like and who you don't but just how you fit in.
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Just like any shul. One chabad shul may have a rabbi you like, another one may have one that you don't like.
That's kind of what I'm saying, except I'm talking about the entire congregation and it's not mostly a factor of who you like and who you don't but just how you fit in.
interesting point..
if doing a small shul, to avoid a boring service, then fitting in is important, and I see the benefits of a motley crew shul to a "newbie".
it's worth noting though that in a big shul, it's boring, the service can be -l-o-n-g- , not that spiritual, unfocussed, petty(people more interested in the national sport - football if in britain, than in the service), it's a social thing. But you can also melt into the background, because it's a big shul. In a small focussed shul, you'd get more out of it, but finding one where you fit in is important.. And there I see the wisdom of finding a chabad shul that you like. Or some other shul where many people don't know what they're doing.
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To me, this is getting more important. More and more important. I see a total degeneration of society, and I feel way out of place, I see people calling things moral when they are not, I see people calling things conservative,. when they are not. I am feeling confused, and recently a feeling of persecution when I get attacked for standing up for righteousness. I feel lost, and not 'home'. It is like America not my country anymore, and the people are getting worse and worse. I feel pressed everywhere, because I want to be strong and correct. I just feel so lost right now, I could just scream.
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To me, this is getting more important. More and more important. I see a total degeneration of society, and I feel way out of place, I see people calling things moral when they are not, I see people calling things conservative,. when they are not. I am feeling confused, and recently a feeling of persecution when I get attacked for standing up for righteousness. I feel lost, and not 'home'. It is like America not my country anymore, and the people are getting worse and worse. I feel pressed everywhere, because I want to be strong and correct. I just feel so lost right now, I could just scream.
if you didn't give leftists the time of day, didn't talk to them, didn't debate them, then it wouldn't affect you so much.
your physical home is still void of leftists, and on the internet, you have JTF which is right wing.
I find that I don't talk about politics much, because the left aren't worth talking to, (and i'm not friendly with leftists anyway). And my friends would agree with me anyway, and most of what we'd have to say on politics they already know as obvious.
JTF is the only place I discuss politics really.
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Anyway attending Schul in Sabbat is out of the question from my part, at most I might go in the high holidays.
I know Q_Q_ and Tzvi won't like what I have to say and I'm not advocating that people drive, but go to one where most of the members do.
Go to a Friday night service instead of a Saturday morning one and then stay for the meal afterwards. You will have interesting conversations with people at the dinner table. If you choose the right congregation, this will not be boring and will serve as a step towards becoming more familiar with the services.
Are you implying that people who walk to shul won't make for interesting conversation?
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I know Q_Q_ and Tzvi won't like what I have to say and I'm not advocating that people drive, but go to one where most of the members do.
You are correct and I will state why-. The reason why this is NOT a good place to go to is because then the chances are that they dont have 10 Jewish men who keep Shabb-t, therefore it is NOT a minyan. Why would anyone want to be at such a place. Anyway a shul is a Holy place to talk to G-d. One can talk to G-d anywhere (except unclean places of-course), but in a shul and with a Minyan the prayers are more and faster accepted, + one can answer Amen to blessings (we should say at least 90 Amens a day to blessings and make 100 blessings a day).
Also the talk about Minyan being a social thing- it is NOT for social reasons. Sure you can say hi, bye, maybe meet someone new, etc. But it is absolutly forbidden to talk in shul, expecially during prayers. And if one cannot control him/herself then they should just not come to shul- just pray at home. -The Rambam says that one who talks in shul, should be asked to leave, and if he doesn't leave, you can even force him to (even physically if it gets to it).
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I know Q_Q_ and Tzvi won't like what I have to say and I'm not advocating that people drive, but go to one where most of the members do.
You are correct and I will state why-. The reason why this is NOT a good place to go to is because then the chances are that they dont have 10 Jewish men who keep Shabbat, therefore it is NOT a minyan. Why would anyone want to be at such a place. Anyway a shul is a Holy place to talk to G-d. One can talk to G-d anywhere (except unclean places of-course), but in a shul and with a Minyan the prayers are more and faster accepted, + one can answer Amen to blessings (we should say at least 90 Amens a day to blessings and make 100 blessings a day).
Also the talk about Minyan being a social thing- it is NOT for social reasons. Sure you can say hi, bye, maybe meet someone new, etc. But it is absolutly forbidden to talk in shul, expecially during prayers. And if one cannot control him/herself then they should just not come to shul- just pray at home. -The Rambam says that one who talks in shul, should be asked to leave, and if he doesn't leave, you can even force him to (even physically if it gets to it).
Tzvi,
I will just say once again that the issue, from my perspective, is not that shul is a place for socializing. It is rather a place to be a part of the Jewish community. The purpose of minyan is because a prayer by a community, for a community, is heard by Hashem and given more power than a prayer by an individual. When praying for the recovery of health {Refuah Shlemah} it is always more desirable to be in a minyan. I agree that is is wrong, and very very wrong, to talk in shul during any of the prayer service.
muman613
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Are you implying that people who walk to shul won't make for interesting conversation?
That is not my point. I'm not advocating breaking the laws of shabbat either, but understand that people do. I am making suggestions though based on what has worked in my case.
The point I'm trying to make is that it is important to fit in as part of the congregation and not as an outsider who just sits there. A newbie may not enjoy a black hat congregation enough to want to go as much as possible. I have nothing against black hat congregations, besides not being crazy about the hats. I have gone to them periodically. People are always nice there and always invite me to meal, however, they live a lifestyle which is different from mine and I am always an outsider.
When I go to my congregation, I thank Hashem every time I get there for providing such a wonderful place. Shabbat has become something I look forward to and this has only started since I found my congregation.
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The reason why this is NOT a good place to go to is because then the chances are that they dont have 10 Jewish men who keep Shabbat, therefore it is NOT a minyan.
No matter what the congregation is, this a great reason to go. By going, you might be the 10th person. This may mean completing a Minyan for nine people who really need it. Maybe someone needs to say Kaddish. You have no clue how many times I have made sure I was there so the congregation could have a Minyan.
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One last response in a row.
Another suggestion that I have for a Newbie is to prepare or do something. Things I have prepared and done include.
1. Doing my own Kiddush, which they let me do every week now.
2. Preparing a Dvar Torah.
3. Reading a Torah Passage.
4. Reading an Aliya.
5. Leading a song.
6. Doing Havdalah.
By contributing to the services, you feel closer to them.
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The reason why this is NOT a good place to go to is because then the chances are that they dont have 10 Jewish men who keep Shabbat, therefore it is NOT a minyan.
No matter what the congregation is, this a great reason to go. By going, you might be the 10th person. This may mean completing a Minyan for nine people who really need it. Maybe someone needs to say Kaddish. You have no clue how many times I have made sure I was there so the congregation could have a Minyan.
I dont think that you understood me correctly. I was saying what the Shulhan Aruch (and I heard Rabbi's say) that one who is not Shomer Shabb-t is not and cannot be counted as part of the minyan, SOO if you have 6 men who are Shomer Shabb-t, 2 non-shomer Shabb-t (at least knowingly) and then you come to be the tenth, it is Not a real minyan and then it would be 6 + you(assuming the person is also Shomer Shabb-t)= 7, and not 10. It could also be a Bracha Levatallah (a Blessing said in vain) which is also a sin. So in this case it would have been better praying at home.
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Also your PM to me (Im sharing it becuase I know that you would not mind- its nothing personal, etc.)
"You mentioned that a Minyan is not a great place to go it there is a risk of not having 10 people."
I did not say that. If their is a risk of having or not having, then it is good to go. But like you suggested that one goes to pray with people who dont keep Shabb-t, then it is not good (if they dont have 10 Shomer Shabb-t men).
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I dont think that you understood me correctly. I was saying what the Shulhan Aruch (and I heard Rabbi's say) that one who is not Shomer Shabbat is not and cannot be counted as part of the minyan.
This is the first I'm hearing of this. This will be my question for Chaim this week. To the best of my understanding the only two requirements are to be Jewish and to be bar mitzvad. I know that I have been part of Minyans where Jews without much identity just stand there and they still count. The only thing that gets confusing in my congregation is that we have members who are going through the conversion process that don't count. We had nine one time, but many people thought he was the tenth and said the prayers that they wouldn't have if they knew. I wouldn't say their prayers were in vain, because they were recited per the shema with all their heart and all their soul.
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I asked several Rabbis and they all said that the Jews count. I have never been to any congregation that did not count me or anyone else because we were not Shomer Shabbat. Maybe this is a Satmar or Nazi Karta custom.
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I heard it said both by Rabbi Mizrachi and by my Rabbi. Sorry, but it is written in the Shulhan Aruch. If you dont take my word for it then email Rabbi Mizrachi and ask if he said and believes it (and if he said that it is written in the Shulhan Aruch). - Whatever it is NOT a personal thing, im just telling you what I was told is the correct Halacha. And anyway IF their are people who dont know or dont follow the Halacha correctly you can ask then why they are not following it and which poskim argue with the Shulhan Aruch in this regard?
Also one more thing- one CAN be part of a Minyan, but is not counted as one of the ten men. Just like a shul that has 100 women and 9 Shomer Shabb-t men, is not a minyan,
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I heard it said both by Rabbi Mizrachi and by my Rabbi. Sorry, but it is written in the Shulhan Aruch. If you dont take my word for it then email Rabbi Mizrachi and ask if he said and believes it (and if he said that it is written in the Shulhan Aruch). - Whatever it is NOT a personal thing, im just telling you what I was told is the correct Halacha. And anyway IF their are people who dont know or dont follow the Halacha correctly you can ask then why they are not following it and which poskim argue with the Shulhan Aruch in this regard?
Also one more thing- one CAN be part of a Minyan, but is not counted as one of the ten men. Just like a shul that has 100 women and 9 Shomer Shabbat men, is not a minyan,
suppose a person tears toilet paper?
some may use a flannel on shabbat, squeezing it. but apparently that's forbidden.
in a season of bad hayfever, somebody might carry a tissue.
You can't know if people have kept shabbat. Some may be convinced that they have, but really have only done 90% not 100%!
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suppose a person tears toilet paper?
some may use a flannel on shabbat, squeezing it. but apparently that's forbidden.
in a season of bad hayfever, somebody might carry a tissue.
You can't know if people have kept shabbat. Some may be convinced that they have, but really have only done 90% not 100%!
If toilet paper is out of the question, then I guess you can't use a bidet either?
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I heard it said both by Rabbi Mizrachi and by my Rabbi. Sorry, but it is written in the Shulhan Aruch. If you dont take my word for it then email Rabbi Mizrachi and ask if he said and believes it (and if he said that it is written in the Shulhan Aruch). - Whatever it is NOT a personal thing, im just telling you what I was told is the correct Halacha. And anyway IF their are people who dont know or dont follow the Halacha correctly you can ask then why they are not following it and which poskim argue with the Shulhan Aruch in this regard?
Also one more thing- one CAN be part of a Minyan, but is not counted as one of the ten men. Just like a shul that has 100 women and 9 Shomer Shabbat men, is not a minyan,
What exactly does the Shulhan Aruch say? Do the Sephardim also follow this compilation? I don't know much about Rabbi Mizrachi. If you show me something, where either the Rav or the Rebbe support this Idea I will take it seriously than a Rabbi from Monsey.
I do understand that if Jews are impure by doing something such as not fasting on a fast day they are not supposed to receive Aliyas or perform certain Mitzvot, but being counted as part of the Minyan still holds.
The only exception that I can see against counting a bar Mitzvad Jew is if they are not willingly to be part of the Minyan. If they are forced to stand there but refuse to contribute to the prayers, they are not accepting of them. If someone just doesn't have the capacity to say his own prayers, but wants to, the leader of the Minyan can still say them for him even if misguided Jew just ate a Bacon Double Cheeseburger from McDonalds.
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suppose a person tears toilet paper?
some may use a flannel on shabbat, squeezing it. but apparently that's forbidden.
in a season of bad hayfever, somebody might carry a tissue.
You can't know if people have kept shabbat. Some may be convinced that they have, but really have only done 90% not 100%!
suppose a person tears toilet paper?
some may use a flannel on shabbat, squeezing it. but apparently that's forbidden.
in a season of bad hayfever, somebody might carry a tissue.
You can't know if people have kept shabbat. Some may be convinced that they have, but really have only done 90% not 100%!
I think the Shulhan Aruch and Rabbis who have said it are talking about open desecrators. So in this case, I personally dont think it might be too appropriate to ask or assume that one breaks Shabb-t - knowingly , but if you see one driving on Shabb-t, or saying that they break Shabb-t, etc. then they are public Shabb-t desecrators.
With your question we can ask many others- for example- can you trust that Rabbi, who knows maybe he does a, b, c, or d behind closed doors. So I dont think it is relevent, and if it was then their NEVER would be a possibility of a court case in any manner, because who knows what a person might do privatly?
Also once again, if someone does not know the laws correctly, it definitly is bad, we should all do tishuva for things we might not have known at one time or another, but it is a different level of knowingly doing an avera, (and I know that some including me in the past, might think that - ooh well I'll keep myself ignorant and not be responsible, but that is still wrong).
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"even if misguided Jew just ate a Bacon Double Cheeseburger from McDonalds."
I never spoke about that avera, and yes that person is part of a minyan. Even a murderer can be part of a minyan (in the sense that it wasn't officially said that he cant), but someone who is not Shomer Shabb-t, is not counted. Also if he or she touches regular wine then it is not allowed for a Jew to drink it, unless it is Yayin Mevushal.
Please one more thing- dont take or many any of this personally. It is not a personal thing that is being discussed, and I'm not condemning anyone, but I'm just saying what I heard (from 2 sources, and about the wine many other places as well). Anyway why would a Rabbi from Monsey be disqualified? He is not making it up, he is taking it from the Shulhan Aruch. And you asked if Sefardim follow it? Definitly- much more then the Askenazim (and I know that the Yayin issue everyone accepts, and about the Minyan - I assume that everyone (that matters- I mean the Poskim also agree, because no one argues against it).
And about what exactly it says- i wont be able to search and provide it right now, but if you would like, email Rav Mizrachi, I believe you will get the exact response.
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"even if misguided Jew just ate a Bacon Double Cheeseburger from McDonalds."
I never spoke about that avera, and yes that person is part of a minyan. Even a murderer can be part of a minyan (in the sense that it wasn't officially said that he cant), but someone who is not Shomer Shabbat, is not counted. Also if he or she touches regular wine then it is not allowed for a Jew to drink it, unless it is Yayin Mevushal.
Please one more thing- dont take or many any of this personally. It is not a personal thing that is being discussed, and I'm not condemning anyone, but I'm just saying what I heard (from 2 sources, and about the wine many other places as well). Anyway why would a Rabbi from Monsey be disqualified? He is not making it up, he is taking it from the Shulhan Aruch. And you asked if Sefaradim follow it? Definitly- much more then the Askenazim (and I know that the Yayin issue everyone accepts, and about the Minyan - I assume that everyone (that matters- I mean the Poskim also agree, because no one argues against it).
And about what exactly it says- i wont be able to search and provide it right now, but if you would like, email Rav Mizrachi, I believe you will get the exact response.
I'll wait for you to provide the source as you may be correct. I really don't have much desire to converse with Rabbi Mizrachi unless you can get him to come here and support JTF.
About those who don't count, I don't know if my logic of someone not accepting the prayers holds true or not, but if it does and you have 10 people of which 4 are not Shomer Shabbat and 1 does not accept them because of it, then it is the 1 person that breaks the minyan and not the 4.
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takebackourtemple,
I have heard the poskim of which Tzvi is referring to.
I found the following link to a Ask the Rabbi: http://ask.revach.net/article.php?id=507
Halacha - Minyan qualifications
Submitted by anonymous Answered by Rav Peretz Moncharsh
Question: For purposes of counting a minyan to say kaddish, kedusha, etc do all 10 males have to be completely shomer shabbat? If some drive to shul on Shabbos are they disqualified from being counted?
Answer: If they grew up observant and rejected Judaism, they may not be counted. However, if they were raised without a proper Jewish education but they believe in Hashem, then they are considered a tinok sh'nishba, a child who was kidnapped and raised by non-Jews, and may in cases of necessity be counted, although it is preferable not to.
Apparently the Halacha is dependent on whether the individual is Frum From Birth or a Baal Teshuva.
muman613
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"Answer: If they grew up observant and rejected Judaism, they may not be counted. However, if they were raised without a proper Jewish education but they believe in Hashem, then they are considered a tinok sh'nishba, a child who was kidnapped and raised by non-Jews, and may in cases of necessity be counted, although it is preferable not to."
Personally I don't think this is a good answer. The only thing I can agree with is that if they reject the Minyan, they are not part of it. Nobody is perfect though. I wouldn't say that parents are non-Jews just because they fail to properly educate their children.
Another question becomes what if you have ten people present and Hashem really wants there to be a minyan. Because people are stuck up, his mitzvot to have the minyan are not followed.
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"Answer: If they grew up observant and rejected Judaism, they may not be counted. However, if they were raised without a proper Jewish education but they believe in Hashem, then they are considered a tinok sh'nishba, a child who was kidnapped and raised by non-Jews, and may in cases of necessity be counted, although it is preferable not to."
Personally I don't think this is a good answer. The only thing I can agree with is that if they reject the Minyan, they are not part of it. Nobody is perfect though. I wouldn't say that parents are non-Jews just because they fail to properly educate their children.
Another question becomes what if you have ten people present and Hashem really wants there to be a minyan. Because people are stuck up, his mitzvot to have the minyan are not followed.
Wow takebackourtemple,
You think being Shomer Shabbos is being stuck up? This is very sad. Every Jew should strive to observe Shabbat. Do you know how many times in Torah the command to Observe and Guard Shabbos occurs? More than any other mitzvah in the Torah.
It is not stuck up to obey the mitzvot. It is sad that this is your impression.
muman613
PS: Do you know what Kedusha is? It means being holy, being seperate from the mundane. Those who engage in melachot during Shabbat are removing themselves from holiness.
PPS: Ask any Orthodox rabbi which is more important, refraining from Melachot or going to minyan. Obviously the answer is refraining from Melachot. It is preferrable to daven at home than have to violate melachot. This is well known.
PSS: Learn a little bit about Shabbat @ http://www.answers.com/topic/shabbat
http://www.torahtots.com/shabbat/shabbat1.htm
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Every week including the holidays
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"Answer: If they grew up observant and rejected Judaism, they may not be counted. However, if they were raised without a proper Jewish education but they believe in Hashem, then they are considered a tinok sh'nishba, a child who was kidnapped and raised by non-Jews, and may in cases of necessity be counted, although it is preferable not to."
Personally I don't think this is a good answer. The only thing I can agree with is that if they reject the Minyan, they are not part of it. Nobody is perfect though. I wouldn't say that parents are non-Jews just because they fail to properly educate their children.
how is your personal opinion/preference relevant to whatever the facts are?
(rhetorical question. They aren't relevant)
Another question becomes what if you have ten people present and Hashem really wants there to be a minyan. Because people are stuck up, his mitzvot to have the minyan are not followed.
With sentences like that, it's crazy that people take the burden of responding. It looks like you're talking to yourself, having a really stupid conversation. And you've just presented a snip of it because you thought the world would benefit.
Muman thought you meant that you think being shomer shabbat is stuck up.
I can see that's not what you meant. You probably meant that it's stuck up to do what that "Answer:" said.
There is actually an important issue, and an interesting thing here, aside from your thoughts.
The fact is that Halacha is what it is.It's not done for personal preferences.
So if a strictly kosher keeping (particularly a baal teshuva) person doesn't eat at somebody elses' e.g. stranger or in the case of a baal teshuva, often his friend or parents home. Then it's not because he is stuck up. It's not his personal preferences. But jewish law is what it is.
The other person might be offended, and complain that the religious person is "Holier than thou". And that that "they"(the normals, the less religious) are now not jewish enough for them(the now frummers). "We are not kosher enough for you?"
note- I have heard stories. In the kosher case, even if the baal teshuva accepts the invitation and eats but brings in paper plates, plastic or his own cutlery and his own food. It can be considered as an insult by the host.
Really, if they complain, it's the host that is not accomodating the baal teshuva. The BT has accepted to sit with them and eat at the table with them.
The interesting thing is that goyim are more respectful about this than half religious jews are!
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Wow takebackourtemple,
You think being Shomer Shabbos is being stuck up?
That is not what I think. What I think is that not including valid Jews as part of the Minyan because they are not perfect is stuck up.
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Personally I don't think this is a good answer. The only thing I can agree with is that if they reject the Minyan, they are not part of it. Nobody is perfect though. I wouldn't say that parents are non-Jews just because they fail to properly educate their children.
how is your personal opinion/preference relevant to whatever the facts are?
(rhetorical question. They aren't relevant)
The fact is that regardless of if a Jew keeps Shomer Shabbat or not, he is born to a Jewish mother and she is Jewish regardless of if she keeps the Shabbat or properly educates her children. If someone rejects the minyan, even if they say prayers, they are not saying them truthfully.
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The fact is that regardless of if a Jew keeps Shomer Shabbat or not, he is born to a Jewish mother and she is Jewish regardless of if she keeps the Shabbat or properly educates her children.
the expression is "is shomer shabbat" not "keeps"
If someone rejects the minyan, even if they say prayers, they are not saying them truthfully.
you made this pointless assumption ages ago, you didn't even notice it was an assumption. The assumption that the person that doesn't accept the minyan would still daven with the minyan.
on a related note.
there is a prayer format for when you have a minyan, and a prayer format for when you don't. In jewish schools, some school years would have boys pre barmitzva, so, doing the latter format.
if you wanted to look at it logically, given your pointless assumption, then you might ask what sin it is to do the wrong prayer format.
What you write about praying untruthfully is just mindless nonsense. Another case where perhaps it's good you didn't bother to elaborate. I wouldn't make assumptions about the person's reasons. But there is that technical halachic reason. And there is a psychological problem with - to ridicule it - 'davening with people that you don't accept'. More correctly, it's davening with people that think there is a minyan, when one thinks there isn't. The whole situation is your invention of course.
And your quoting of yourself and of me was not that clear
If you write <quote author="q_q_"> or <quote author="takebackourtemple"> instead of <quote>, then it is clearer. Changing <> to [] of course.
note- I hadn't heard about this shomer shabbat minyan issue mentioned by Tzvi, which you take offence to. It wouldn't suprise me if it was the case. And as with anything in halacha, it's not peoples' personal preference so not something one shoudl take offence to. You sign up for orthodox judaism, you can't really disagree with the rules. You might break some due to personal weaknesses. But your mentality of potentially taking offence to them, is just wrong.
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That is not what I think. What I think is that not including valid Jews as part of the Minyan because they are not perfect is stuck up.
takebackourtemple,
I will not argue about who is stuck up or not. The issue is simply one of halacha. Most of the time the minyans which I attend on Shabbat usually provide lodging for those who attend so they dont have to break any melachot. Also friends of mine who would have Shabbatons at their house would usually have extra matresses and beds for people to sleep over so that they dont have to drive. If you could find such a good minyan which does what it can to prevent people from violating the Shabbat.
Shabbat is truly a treasure which has kept the Jewish people alive all these millenia. Proper observance of this Holy Day is very important for the spiritual and physical well being of the Jewish people. Much has been written of the importance of each of the halachas of Shabbat. I dont presume to know more than the great sages of ours and even though I am not perfect, I strive for better observance.
A proper attitude is to try to learn from people who are more observant and understand the meanings of refraining from all creative work. May your Shabbats be more precious.
muman613