JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: momofsixbabes on October 23, 2008, 08:30:47 PM
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Anyone else feel that way? There is a need to pray and fast for America and Israel. Check out this chilling video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sj91NH5fvw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sj91NH5fvw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSemkPChvHo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSemkPChvHo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI77cU3jsFs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI77cU3jsFs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4)
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If you want to do that be my guest but I will not
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Anyone else feel that way? There is a need to pray and fast for America and Israel. Check out this chilling video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sj91NH5fvw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sj91NH5fvw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSemkPChvHo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSemkPChvHo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI77cU3jsFs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI77cU3jsFs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4)
Actually this was suggested several weeks ago {just before Yom Kippur fast}... I think that we should do whatever we have to do to gain favor before the L-rd. I would have hoped we could do this in a unified way but there are others who dont think this is appropriate.
muman613
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Yes, I started a thread about this last week.
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I was already fasting and praying then as well, as we (my family and I) are trying to embrace the Jewish holidays. This whole thing has weighed heavy on my heart. I am getting ready for another fast and prayer, and I was hoping some others might join me.
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Anyone else feel that way? There is a need to pray and fast for America and Israel. Check out this chilling video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sj91NH5fvw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sj91NH5fvw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSemkPChvHo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSemkPChvHo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI77cU3jsFs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI77cU3jsFs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4)
Actually this was suggested several weeks ago {just before Yom Kippur fast}... I think that we should do whatever we have to do to gain favor before the L-rd. I would have hoped we could do this in a unified way but there are others who dont think this is appropriate.
muman613
We have many gentile readers here, you are almost encouraging them to fast on yom kippur now. By not being clear. And elsewhere you literally told gentiles(rubystars is probably not jewish.. and since it's public, you were telling others including gentiles) to say HaShem instead of G-d. You are mixing things up completely. Jews work with Gentiles on this forum, that doesn't mean that gentiles are expected to do as jews do, or jews as gentiles do. We have different functions.
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:coCgL6wvUQ8J:www.jewsagainstobama.org/forum_english/chat/log/index.php%3F%26page%3D10+jtf+chat+rubystars+muman+hashem&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk
or
http://tinyurl.com/5v35cl
You are extremely unwise..
and what you are writing is like a snip of a poor lesson on judaism for gentiles, since jews would know we don't pronounce certain things, you are writing for gentiles. And you're writing "A...i" . People might say it.
I know you don't really write for anybody, I think you are usually just preaching to yourself, things that resonate with you. But it has a wishy washy affect on others, other than yourself.
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I was already fasting and praying then as well, as we (my family and I) are trying to embrace the Jewish holidays. This whole thing has weighed heavy on my heart. I am getting ready for another fast and prayer, and I was hoping some others might join me.
you're probably not jewish, right?
there is no need to embrace jewish holidays, furthermore, you are not meant to.
The Torah was given to the jewish people, the torah instructs jews to teach it to our children.. jews are instructed to be a holy nation.. separate.
We do these things.. gentiles are not meant to.
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Anyone else feel that way? There is a need to pray and fast for America and Israel. Check out this chilling video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sj91NH5fvw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sj91NH5fvw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSemkPChvHo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSemkPChvHo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI77cU3jsFs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI77cU3jsFs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4)
Actually this was suggested several weeks ago {just before Yom Kippur fast}... I think that we should do whatever we have to do to gain favor before the L-rd. I would have hoped we could do this in a unified way but there are others who dont think this is appropriate.
muman613
We have many gentile readers here, you are almost encouraging them to fast on yom kippur now. By not being clear. And elsewhere you literally told gentiles(rubystars is probably not jewish.. and since it's public, you were telling others including gentiles) to say HaShem instead of G-d. You are mixing things up completely. Jews work with Gentiles on this forum, that doesn't mean that gentiles are expected to do as jews do, or jews as gentiles do. We have different functions.
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:coCgL6wvUQ8J:www.jewsagainstobama.org/forum_english/chat/log/index.php%3F%26page%3D10+jtf+chat+rubystars+muman+hashem&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk
or
http://tinyurl.com/5v35cl
You are extremely unwise..
and what you are writing is like judaism for gentiles, since jews would know we don't pronounce certain things. And you're writing "A...i" . People might say it.
q_q_,
You are completely wrong about this... This is not my suggestion at all. I simply said that others have discussed this. Once again you come to incorrect conclusions, conclusions based on your incorrect reasoning skills.
muman613
PS: When I say that 'we' should do whatever we have to do I am referring to the Jewish members. I dont know what non-Jews need to do to gain favor before the L-rd, and that is their own business..
PPS: q_q_, did you go to Shul on Yom Kippr for the afternoon services? Did you read the Story of Jonah {or maybe you were out partying}... If you read in the Story of Jonah, a whole nation of Non-Jews fasted and donned sack-cloth because HASHEM had commanded Jonah to warn the NON-JEWISH nation of impending doom... I don't expect you to know this kind of thing because it is over your head...
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q_q_,
You are completely wrong about this... This is not my suggestion at all. I simply said that others have discussed this. Once again you come to incorrect conclusions, conclusions based on your incorrect reasoning skills.
muman613
AGAIN, I said, and I quote
"you are almost encouraging them to fast on yom kippur now. By not being clear"
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q_q_,
You are completely wrong about this... This is not my suggestion at all. I simply said that others have discussed this. Once again you come to incorrect conclusions, conclusions based on your incorrect reasoning skills.
muman613
AGAIN, I said, and I quote
"you are almost encouraging them to fast on yom kippur now. By not being clear"
PPS: q_q_, did you go to Shul on Yom Kippr for the afternoon services? Did you read the Story of Jonah {or maybe you were out partying}... If you read in the Story of Jonah, a whole nation of Non-Jews fasted and donned sack-cloth because HASHEM had commanded Jonah to warn the NON-JEWISH nation of impending doom... I don't expect you to know this kind of thing because it is over your head...
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q_q_,
You are completely wrong about this... This is not my suggestion at all. I simply said that others have discussed this. Once again you come to incorrect conclusions, conclusions based on your incorrect reasoning skills.
muman613
AGAIN, I said, and I quote
"you are almost encouraging them to fast on yom kippur now. By not being clear"
PPS: q_q_, did you go to Shul on Yom Kippr for the afternoon services? Did you read the Story of Jonah {or maybe you were out partying}... If you read in the Story of Jonah, a whole nation of Non-Jews fasted and donned sack-cloth because HASHEM had commanded Jonah to warn the NON-JEWISH nation of impending doom... I don't expect you to know this kind of thing because it is over your head...
These are just personal insults followed by some wishy washy talk..
Now you are ALMOST justifying Almost encouraging non-jews to fast on yom kippur.
You are playing games and it's very bad.
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q_q_,
You are completely wrong about this... This is not my suggestion at all. I simply said that others have discussed this. Once again you come to incorrect conclusions, conclusions based on your incorrect reasoning skills.
muman613
AGAIN, I said, and I quote
"you are almost encouraging them to fast on yom kippur now. By not being clear"
PPS: q_q_, did you go to Shul on Yom Kippr for the afternoon services? Did you read the Story of Jonah {or maybe you were out partying}... If you read in the Story of Jonah, a whole nation of Non-Jews fasted and donned sack-cloth because HASHEM had commanded Jonah to warn the NON-JEWISH nation of impending doom... I don't expect you to know this kind of thing because it is over your head...
These are just personal insults followed by some wishy washy talk..
Now you are ALMOST justifying Almost encouraging non-jews to fast on yom kippur.
You are playing games and it's very bad.
q_q_,
I did not mention anywhere that I think that non-Jews should fast or not... I am simply pointing out that it is not unheard of.
muman613
PS: I agree with you that our service to Hashem must be distinct from the gentile world. But I am not going to tell people whether or not their fast will be acceptable before Hashem, the L-rd. Are you on such a level where you know Hashems wishes? Are you a prophet too?
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<snip>
q_q_,
I did not mention anywhere that I think that non-Jews should fast or not...
I never said that you did. I said that you almost encouraged this, or almost encouraged that.
You pretended that I said it so you could tell me my reasoning skills were flawed.
Are you now going to admit that is a mistake too? you're not bad at that.
I am simply pointing out that it is not unheard of.
PS: I agree with you that our service to Hashem must be distinct from the gentile world. But I am not going to tell people whether or not their fast will be acceptable before Hashem, the L-rd. Are you on such a level where you know Hashems wishes? Are you a prophet too?
Do you agree on the specific point that gentiles shouldn't be fasting on yom kippur?
It still doesn't look like you do.
Your unknown, or whether it is acceptable or not, is not even considering whether it is wrong.
When I say fasting on yom kippur, I mean saying Oh look it's yom kippur, i'm going to fast because it's yom kippur. Or moreso.. The fast starts at this time, it's 25 hours, it ends at this time.. Great, I can eat now e.t.c.
Do you agree that gentiles shouldn't be doing that?
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About the first video, it is alarming that the president of the United States would reduce military spending at a time when all of America's worst enemies are arming themselves to the teeth. I don't think fasting could hurt.
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<snip>
q_q_,
I did not mention anywhere that I think that non-Jews should fast or not...
I never said that you did. I said that you almost encouraged this, or almost encouraged that.
You pretended that I said it so you could tell me my reasoning skills were flawed.
Are you now going to admit that is a mistake too? you're not bad at that.
I am simply pointing out that it is not unheard of.
PS: I agree with you that our service to Hashem must be distinct from the gentile world. But I am not going to tell people whether or not their fast will be acceptable before Hashem, the L-rd. Are you on such a level where you know Hashems wishes? Are you a prophet too?
Do you agree on the specific point that gentiles shouldn't be fasting on yom kippur?
It still doesn't look like you do.
Your unknown, or whether it is acceptable or not, is not even considering whether it is wrong.
When I say fasting on yom kippur, I mean saying Oh look it's yom kippur, i'm going to fast because it's yom kippur. Or moreso.. The fast starts at this time, it's 25 hours, it ends at this time.. Great, I can eat now e.t.c.
Do you agree that gentiles shouldn't be doing that?
q_q_,
Obviously I agree that non-Jews should not follow Halacha nor any of our mitzvot. These were given as a special gift to the Jewish people. I dont have a problem with understanding this. The question is whether it is ok for non-jews to make their own vows and impose their own restrictions in the hope that the Master of the Universe will hear their cries. I do believe that the righteous gentiles are in Hashems plan for the messianic age {and I have heard explanations about this from various sources}.
q_q, lets agree to disagree... I dont enjoy being so confrontational with you but I only do so to keep you entertained...
muman613
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I was already fasting and praying then as well, as we (my family and I) are trying to embrace the Jewish holidays. This whole thing has weighed heavy on my heart. I am getting ready for another fast and prayer, and I was hoping some others might join me.
you're probably not jewish, right?
there is no need to embrace jewish holidays, furthermore, you are not meant to.
The Torah was given to the jewish people, the torah instructs jews to teach it to our children.. jews are instructed to be a holy nation.. separate.
We do these things.. gentiles are not meant to.
We are NOT discussing fasting on Yom Kippur, we are discussing praying and fasting for this ELECTION!!!
Gentiles are ALLOWED to fast and pray for anything that they see fit for......
THis is not about the holidays at all.....
and why are you harangueing Muman again????
Stop being so mean pleeeaaasssseeee???????? ;D
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I was already fasting and praying then as well, as we (my family and I) are trying to embrace the Jewish holidays. This whole thing has weighed heavy on my heart. I am getting ready for another fast and prayer, and I was hoping some others might join me.
you're probably not jewish, right?
there is no need to embrace jewish holidays, furthermore, you are not meant to.
The Torah was given to the jewish people, the torah instructs jews to teach it to our children.. jews are instructed to be a holy nation.. separate.
We do these things.. gentiles are not meant to.
We are NOT discussing fasting on Yom Kippur, we are discussing praying and fasting for this ELECTION!!!
Gentiles are ALLOWED to fast and pray for anything that they see fit for......
THis is not about the holidays at all.....
and why are you harangueing Muman again????
Stop being so mean pleeeaaasssseeee???????? ;D
Hanna, are you / do you claim to be a religious jew/jewess?
The reason I am arguing jewish belief with Muman is because he is.
I take it that you also do not agree with me that gentiles should not fast on yom kippur?
You are right of course that this was not the subject of the thread, but threads have subthreads, various discussions within them, and this is one going on now! And it's important.
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בס''ד
Gentlemen, you are both good Jews. Please stop arguing.
If I were q_q_, I probably would have sent Muman a private message to express my concerns.
And if I were Muman, I probably would have responded by saying, "Thank you for pointing this out to me. Maybe I was not clear enough."
If we treat each with respect, then even disagreements can lead to greater cooperation.
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בס''ד
Gentlemen, you are both good Jews. Please stop arguing.
If I were q_q_, I probably would have sent Muman a private message to express my concerns.
And if I were Muman, I probably would have responded by saying, "Thank you for pointing this out to me. Maybe I was not clear enough."
If we treat each with respect, then even disagreements can lead to greater cooperation.
I am sorry Chaim.. I will try to be more understanding. I don't want to have these kinds of arguments.
muman613
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בס''ד
Gentlemen, you are both good Jews. Please stop arguing.
If I were q_q_, I probably would have sent Muman a private message to express my concerns.
And if I were Muman, I probably would have responded by saying, "Thank you for pointing this out to me. Maybe I was not clear enough."
If we treat each with respect, then even disagreements can lead to greater cooperation.
Chaim, I have communicated with Muman in private before on a number of occassions, and it doesn't convince him of my point any more than communicating with him in public.
So there is no point to communicating with him in private.
What the public replies achieve, is they correct bad misconceptions, or other bad flaws. There are many others that make the same error on a lesser scale, or have misconceptions that his posts encourage, and my replies in the thread are useful for them, sometimes they PM me that they weren't aware of it..
Or it's clear in the thread that they weren't aware, and became aware..
I am not out to convince muman, that will not happen, but there is a higher purpose to my debating with him. Others see the arguments, the strength of mine and it helps them.
So the option is not private debate vs public debate.
The options in a case like this. One is to let the misconception about judaism remain.. To let jews think it's intelligent behaviour to suggest to christians that judaism/we thinks it's right for them to partake in jewish festivals, or jewish rituals. To "sort of" tell them to write HaShem.. and so on .. (this of course is a big reason for how this jewish "messianic" phenomena got off the ground in the first place, and it's what keeps it going)
The other option is to reply to it, so that at least jews know that it's not right. And I can tell you that from my replies to Muman, gentiles too see that jews think jewish festivals and rituals are for jews.. and so on. I have already receieved a PM from a gentile that obviously benefited from what I pointed out.
Often my replies to him are not on such a tragically serious matter , just on a matter of style. Though they also benefit many people.
One way I could go about this, is to reply to the misconception within the thread, but without quoting Muman or mentioning him. I think that's clearly the best way, if you really want to avoid the to and fro debate that we have seen.
Even that form of response would not achieve as much as the to and fro debate acheives.
One thing the to and fro debate with muman does acheive is. For example, in the esau thread, my post that hit on muman's point directly, it helped others reply to him when he repeated the same thing. They thought "ah, I remember muman said this before, and qq responded". And you see an example of it in the thread, and these benefits are my goal.
It's true that he gets very bothered and thinks i'm picking on him and he doesn't really understand what's going on. But it can't be anything like the perils society including he, faces anyway. And there are great benefits to the discussion, as I have pointed out. And for me to have not responded to it, -especially- in this case, is leaving something dangerous to fester.
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EVERY SINGLE G-d FEARING person OUGHT to FAST and PRAY. PERIOD. If fasting is not for you- thats fine, G-d knows the hearts of ALL people- But I have been in Prayers- SERIOUS crying out to G-d, SERIOUS.
I will tell you STRAIGHT UP though, IF G-d were to have mercy on this nation, we CANNOT SIT BACK and WHINE for 4 years- WE HAVE WORK TO DO. WE CANNOT just whine=============NO! That is what EVERYONE did with Bush, and did NOTHING to change ANYTHING.
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בס''ד
Gentlemen, you are both good Jews. Please stop arguing.
If I were q_q_, I probably would have sent Muman a private message to express my concerns.
And if I were Muman, I probably would have responded by saying, "Thank you for pointing this out to me. Maybe I was not clear enough."
If we treat each with respect, then even disagreements can lead to greater cooperation.
THANK YOU! LET'S NOT FIGHT...we need UNITY right now because we face an enemy in the USA that we have never faced before!
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Well said, JewishAmericanPatr.
I believe that fasting and prayer are wonderful ideas and I encourage this. G-d bless you momofsixbabes and ~Hanna~. You have very good hearts.
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I in no way q_q_ meant to offend anyone with this post. In fact, I have been stunned since yesterday. I agree that I am a hundred percent gentile. Does that mean such hostile words of should come from you? I have been very saddened by your posts. I have been naive in believing that Jewish brothers and sisters would not be so legalistic. Let's look at the bible together.
The first five commandments are about loving God with all our heart. The second five are about loving our brothers and sisters/ neighbors. I think it is important to put the obedience to the ten commandments above the festivals and special days. They do not come as more important than the ten commandments. Thus, our posts should reflect our love for God and one another. It saddens me that they don't.
In reference to your accusation of whether I was calling fasts on the wrong days, I have my Jewish calendar on the wall. I fasted for the time of Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year because it is suppose to be a time of reflection and repentance. No, I don't have to keep all the laws of the Jewish customs or laws, but I have a love for my Father's Word and a high respect for the festivals because they bring to light my Christian faith.
The recent call to fast is because of the darkness that stands at our doors (a Muslim presidential candidate running for president of the U.S.). I am burdened in my heart to pray and fast because I love my country and the Jewish people. Just as Ester called a fast because the Jewish people were in danger, I was calling a fast to those who were with the same conviction (not that I would deserve any honor in being compared to her-but, to remind that she did this on a nonfeast/custom day). If Ester was allowed to call a fast for danger ahead, couldn't a lowly gentile call a fast for the same reason? Please understand that Obama is close ties with Hamas and Muslims alike. I read that Obama secretely told someone at CNN that he will insist on swearing in on the Koran if elected. Do you understand that this will put Israel in very dangerous situation? Your enemies are already surrounding. God put it in Ester's heart to fast and pray. I am not worthy of being compared to her, but couldn't your accusations be put aside? God has done miraculous things when his people turn from any wickedness and cry out to Him (he wishes to do good to his children). He will intervene if we pray. I never intended this post to step on any religious Jew's toes. I wanted it to be deleted, and requested such, because it deeply grieves me that it would stir up such anger and hostility.
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Look "momofsixbabes", your issues are from another thread. If you want to follow this religion of jesus with rosh hashana and yom kippur, then fine. You said it was a synagogue and your minister a true jew and a rabbi. That's not fine. Don't expect jews to buy it.
The issue is not the religion you follow.. You can worship a tree for all I care. (not ideal, but I'm not bothered. Crazyness amongst jews is more of a concern)
My message here has not been to gentiles, it's to jews, not to encourage gentiles to write HaShem. Not to teach gentiles the names of G-d, names that should not be spoken in conversation. Not to half encourage them to fast on yom kippur.. and the rest of it It is this that creates people like your "rabbi" and his confused congregation that call their church a "synagogue".
Chaim himself has said that the minister you call a rabbi, is not a rabbi. I'm sure that you don't like that either.
Do see Chaim's response to you in that previous thread where you called your jesus believing leader a rabbi. his response was quite strong - and rightly so.
And you should know, Muman thinks all christians are going to hell. Nobody else does. So I think you should re-adjust your mind a little bit.
It's fine to say let's not debate, but then let's not debate, don't then bring things up expecting a response.
And obviously generally fasting is not a bad thing. As AsheDina said.
I am glad that you are not "legalistic". You are not meant to be. You are not meant to follow jewish law.
We Jews ARE meant to, we are meant to be "legalistic". We don't need to sit around discussing jewish law with christians. We do our religious things, you do your religious things, and we work together.
We do have some common stories since we share a bible. But don't tell us not to be "legalistic", or to look at the bible with you to figure out how we should act.
This of course is not to overshadow the war we face with islam.
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Look "momofsixbabes", your issues are from another thread. If you want to follow this religion of jesus with rosh hashana and yom kippur, then fine. You said it was a synagogue and your minister a true jew and a rabbi. That's not fine. Don't expect jews to buy it.
The issue is not the religion you follow.. You can worship a tree for all I care. (not ideal, but I'm not bothered. Crazyness amongst jews is more of a concern)
My message here has not been to gentiles, it's to jews, not to encourage gentiles to write HaShem. Not to teach gentiles the names of G-d, names that should not be spoken in conversation. Not to half encourage them to fast on yom kippur.. and the rest of it It is this that creates people like your "rabbi" and his confused congregation that call their church a "synagogue".
Chaim himself has said that the minister you call a rabbi, is not a rabbi. I'm sure that you don't like that either.
Do see Chaim's response to you in that previous thread where you called your jesus believing leader a rabbi. his response was quite strong - and rightly so.
And you should know, Muman thinks all christians are going to hell. Nobody else does. So I think you should re-adjust your mind a little bit.
It's fine to say let's not debate, but then let's not debate, don't then bring things up expecting a response.
And obviously generally fasting is not a bad thing. As AsheDina said.
I am glad that you are not "legalistic". You are not meant to be. You are not meant to follow jewish law.
We Jews ARE meant to, we are meant to be "legalistic". We don't need to sit around discussing jewish law with christians. We do our religious things, you do your religious things, and we work together.
We do have some common stories since we share a bible. But don't tell us not to be "legalistic", or to look at the bible with you to figure out how we should act.
This of course is not to overshadow the war we face with islam.
q_q I dont think that was her who said that it was YoChana who said that.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,27570.msg291434.html#msg291434
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בס''ד
Gentlemen, you are both good Jews. Please stop arguing.
If I were q_q_, I probably would have sent Muman a private message to express my concerns.
And if I were Muman, I probably would have responded by saying, "Thank you for pointing this out to me. Maybe I was not clear enough."
If we treat each with respect, then even disagreements can lead to greater cooperation.
:clap:
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Well said, JewishAmericanPatr.
I believe that fasting and prayer are wonderful ideas and I encourage this. G-d bless you momofsixbabes and ~Hanna~. You have very good hearts.
THankyou ....
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q_q I dont think that was her who said that it was YoChana who said that.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,27570.msg291434.html#msg291434
Thanks for the correction. Though they are essentially coming from a similar place. YoChanna at least may have realised not to expect jews to accept her terminology. But momofsixbabes is actually telling jews not to be legalistic. No doubt her minister that gets her to embrace jewish holidays objects to jews following halacha(jewish law).
The point that I made here was that Jews shouldn't be teaching christians all about judaism because it creates this kind of merged mess. Messianic congregations that attract jews, e.t.c.
Of course, for the sake of others i'll have to repeat. This should not deflect us from our war against islam.
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Gott in Himmel we need to stop fighting amongst ourselves and unite against the COMMON FOE. After 11/4 there might not BE a United States of America for us to speak this openly in!
G-d fearing Jews and G-d fearing Christians all must unite to fight this piece of garbage named Barack HUSSEIN Obama/Barry Soetoro/Barry Dunham/whatever other aliases this filth has been known by.
VIGILANCE IS THE PRICE OF LIBERTY!
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Gott in Himmel we need to stop fighting amongst ourselves and unite against the COMMON FOE. After 11/4 there might not BE a United States of America for us to speak this openly in!
G-d fearing Jews and G-d fearing Christians all must unite to fight this piece of garbage named Barack HUSSEIN Obama/Barry Soetoro/Barry Dunham/whatever other aliases this filth has been known by.
VIGILANCE IS THE PRICE OF LIBERTY!
I AGREE------>>PRAY. PRAY. PRAY. PLEASE PRAY.
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q_q_,
You misrepresented me once again. Though judging from your posting habits I dont find this unusual. You claim that "muman believes christians are gong to hell"... I invite anyone to show me that I believe this...
The fact of the matter is that in a thread where we were discussing Ann Coulter who said that "Jews are imperfected Christians" I made a comment that sometimes I feel like saying that people who don't believe in one G-d are going to the dark place. I said this, obviously because my feelings were hurt, and not because I truly believe this. I know and work with many righteous gentiles and there is no way I believe that they are not going to be rewarded in Olam Haba. So to take my post which I clarified several times in that thread and re-hash it to represent me as a hater of non-Jews is disingenuous.
Regarding whether I am influencing non-Jews to observe Jewish customs it is clear. I don't think that non-Jews should perform Jewish customs or learn the names of our G-d. But there is also a mission Jews are on to be a light onto the nations. This involves living and learning and teaching our ways. As I said in other posts I have worked with many people {through my synagogue and my local minyan} who have gone through Orthodox conversions and I know that some non-Jewish souls have a longing to be a part of the Jewish people. I am not going around trying to convert everyone but I do think that we should be listening when people are interested.
I am against messianic churchs and against the mixing of Christian elements into Jewish ideology. I am also very against missionising. But I am not going to say that it is wrong for a non-Jew to do things which they believe will satisfy the will of the L-rd. I quoted the example from the story of Jonah where a whole nation of gentiles were saved because they fasted and prayed.
To everyone outside of this little machlokes I apologize. I am a strong-headed individual and Im a smart guy. I have learned to not step down from a battle because in doing so you lose respect. At first I tried to deal nicely with q_q_ and learned that he didn't heed my words of kindness. So what is a man to do? I have to deal harshly when he deals harshly with me. I am very sorry that this thread has devolved into this.
I was accused of suggesting that non-Jews fast on Yom Kippur, yet I never said that. I was accused of suggesting that Jews perform the mitzvahs and observances of Jewishs life, yet I never said that. All I did was affirm that it may be beneficial for anyone to beseech the L-rd for compassion and mercy and providence that Obama not become president. For this q_q_ wants to argue... I know that the more mature individuals reading this know who is right.
muman613
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This is tough because we have so many good people here but I have to say something. The fighting is getting out of hand and we need unity in order to achieve our goals.
muman,
Handle these types of things in private. I do not want petty bickering on the forum. You are supposed to be an example. I'm not sure why you continue to egg these things on. Please help me.
q_q_,
I don't know how else to say this but you come off sounding elitist and I'm afraid you are going to turn members off or give the impression that JTF has something against our wonderful gentile members. This might be the case on the splinter forums but it's not the case here. We love righteous people no matter who they are. Rabbi Kahane taught us to be kind to non-Jewish people and befriended many including a Catholic priest who was a dear friend. I'm sure you've heard some of this from reading his books or listening to his programs.
Even if they wanted to fast on Yom Kippur, who cares? It's not like they are going to do some type of harm or even be able to perform Yom Kippur the exact way we are commanded to. Gentiles are allowed to fast on which ever day they wish. This is not a restriction for them in the Noahide laws and it's silly to go on about it - especially since it had nothing to do with Yom Kippur. It comes off just sounding insulting and arrogant - even though I understand that's not your intention. They don't understand why you are saying this or about people who are non-Jewish attempting to do Shabbat so it comes off very smug and elitist and I know that's not what you intended or want.
We all really need to be careful and understanding. I also don't want attacks or bashing on their religious beliefs. This isn't the place and they love Israel and only wish to help. It's cruel to accept help from our wonderful Christian members and then turn around and tell them "you don't care if they worship a tree". Understandably, as Jews, we reject some of their beliefs but we don't have to be harsh and cruel about it.
They speak like this over on the splinter forum but I will not allow our Christian members to be attacked. We need UNITY in order to become success and become a mass movement. I love and care about them and they are trying to join us in order to help save this planet. Let's focus on the muslim nazis (like obama) and show a little more respect and kindness towards those who believe differently than you. We are supposed to be a light to the nations... not just the Jews. We have a responsibility to act with kindness and understanding. We have a responsibility to emulate the Creator.
momofsixbabes,
We have a difference here in religious belief and that's going to happen from time to time. We do the things that G-d commands us (the Laws in the Torah) because G-d commands us to and commands us for every generation. I just wanted to explain. We believe that G-d is kind and wouldn't give us commandments that we could not achieve. We strive to do these things out of love and awe of our magnificent and majestic Creator because we understand that G-d is one and that He's perfect. I hope that helps.
-Shlomo
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This is tough because we have so many good people here but I have to say something. The fighting is getting out of hand and we need unity in order to achieve our goals.
muman,
Handle these types of things in private. I do not want petty bickering on the forum. You are supposed to be an example. I'm not sure why you continue to egg these things on. Please help me.
q_q_,
I don't know how else to say this but you come off sounding elitist and I'm afraid you are going to turn members off or give the impression that JTF has something against our wonderful gentile members. This might be the case on the splinter forums but it's not the case here. We love righteous people no matter who they are. Rabbi Kahane taught us to be kind to non-Jewish people and befriended many including a Catholic priest who was a dear friend. I'm sure you've heard some of this from reading his books or listening to his programs.
Even if they wanted to fast on Yom Kippur, who cares? It's not like they are going to do some type of harm or even be able to perform Yom Kippur the exact way we are commanded to. Gentiles are allowed to fast on which ever day they wish. This is not a restriction for them in the Noahide laws and it's silly to go on about it - especially since it had nothing to do with Yom Kippur. It comes off just sounding insulting and arrogant - even though I understand that's not your intention. They don't understand why you are saying this or about people who are non-Jewish attempting to do Shabbat so it comes off very smug and elitist and I know that's not what you intended or want.
We all really need to be careful and understanding. I also don't want attacks or bashing on their religious beliefs. This isn't the place and they love Israel and only wish to help. It's cruel to accept help from our wonderful Christian members and then turn around and tell them "you don't care if they worship a tree". Understandably, as Jews, we reject some of their beliefs but we don't have to be harsh and cruel about it.
They speak like this over on the splinter forum but I will not allow our Christian members to be attacked. We need UNITY in order to become success and become a mass movement. I love and care about them and they are trying to join us in order to help save this planet. Let's focus on the muslim nazis (like obama) and show a little more respect and kindness towards those who believe differently than you. We are supposed to be a light to the nations... not just the Jews. We have a responsibility to act with kindness and understanding. We have a responsibility to emulate the Creator.
momofsixbabes,
We have a difference here in religious belief and that's going to happen from time to time. We do the things that G-d commands us (the Laws in the Torah) because G-d commands us to and commands us for every generation. I just wanted to explain. We believe that G-d is kind and wouldn't give us commandments that we could not achieve. We strive to do these things out of love and awe of our magnificent and majestic Creator because we understand that G-d is one and that He's perfect. I hope that helps.
-Shlomo
What I will do is stop responding directly to muman.. To stop quoting him and responding to him. (I only respond usually to discuss/argue a point, and we cannot communicate)
And I think it would be a good idea if he doesn't quote me, so as to respond to me.
Most insult has been in direct communication between myself and muman.
Though you didn't really criticise my communication there..
You think I said something or gave the impression of being against gentiles.
note- i'm not offended by you thinking that.
Shlomo, there isn't a single thing I have said that is against christians or christianity. I have even spoken in defence of Ann Coulter over her famous comments.
There is not a single example in this thread or any other of be being against gentiles, on the contrary. In every case.. I have been very supportive of them.
You bring up the tree example.
You completely misunderstood it.
Infact, I don't see anybody else quoting it and calling me out on it. If they found it offensive then they should have.
And funnily enough, the tree example is precisely the same PRO gentile point that I am making with it. The same point that defends Ann Coulter.
I don't care what somebody believes or who they worship. Initially I had in mind saying that I don't mind if she worships satan. In no way would that have suggested that jesus was satan. My point is that she can worship or believe whatever she wants.
And this is entirely in line with JTF who support RIGHTEOUS gentiles. Righteous , whether religious or not, and regardless of religion. They can be Hindu or Christian or Atheist or worship a speaker.
Regarding fasting on yom kippur.
I did say that by judaism's standards, they shouldn't be fasting on yom kippur for the sake of it being yom kippur.. (Meaning she shouldn't expect jews to accept that aspect of her behaviour as true and right, and jews should know that judaism doesn't want that of gentiles).
There are many things I have heard that support gentiles not following our torah.
The Torah is described as our inheritance and our betrothed, and there is a commentary I read that said that this means that were we to teach it to gentiles, we would be making them like thieves and adulterers.
(there is disagreement over what aspects of torah they are even permitted to learn. Some say nothing, others say the opening chapters of genesis only, because that relates to the noachide laws. )
It's quite a natural and non-controversial point to say that jewish law , which as we know, actions on jewish festivals are based on.. Jewish law is for jews.
And from judaism's perspective, it doesn't make sense for gentiles to keep it.
And the controversial aspect, that it's not allowed, is not controverisla at all, it's backed up by that thing I mentioned.. about the torah being our inheritance and our betrothed. Even teaching it to them is limited. For example, no oral law.
And to make it a little worse, I vaguely recall that fasting on Yom Kippur, is based on oral tradition. The written law just says you shall afflict yourselves.
My point though, is a far more timely one. The phenomena of jews for jesus, which we see so strongly in our times, is encouraged by jews encouraging christians to "embrace" bits of judaism. Jews -have- to know this.
This is a point to jews rather than an objection to what she does.
And the point is extremely relevant to recent forum activity.. particularly in this thread.
I'll have you know that mumofsixbabes has already PMed me to tell me I am the devil.
We have many many level-headed serious and intelligent christian members. We don't need to worry if a few mentally unstable people get turned off.
I can tell you that most of the time, everybody understands me. I'm VERY clear!
(infact, I think you only misunderstood me regarding the tree comment, as a subconscious effort! In order to give a balanced criticism to everybody including me)
I will avoid sounding elitist by not continuously quoting/responding directly, to those that can't deal with the power of my logic. This does stifle debate though. And if I do sound elitist, you have to remember, i'm British, and there are people here that can't even spell!!!!! ;-)
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This is tough because we have so many good people here but I have to say something. The fighting is getting out of hand and we need unity in order to achieve our goals.
muman,
Handle these types of things in private. I do not want petty bickering on the forum. You are supposed to be an example. I'm not sure why you continue to egg these things on. Please help me.
q_q_,
I don't know how else to say this but you come off sounding elitist and I'm afraid you are going to turn members off or give the impression that JTF has something against our wonderful gentile members. This might be the case on the splinter forums but it's not the case here. We love righteous people no matter who they are. Rabbi Kahane taught us to be kind to non-Jewish people and befriended many including a Catholic priest who was a dear friend. I'm sure you've heard some of this from reading his books or listening to his programs.
Even if they wanted to fast on Yom Kippur, who cares? It's not like they are going to do some type of harm or even be able to perform Yom Kippur the exact way we are commanded to. Gentiles are allowed to fast on which ever day they wish. This is not a restriction for them in the Noahide laws and it's silly to go on about it - especially since it had nothing to do with Yom Kippur. It comes off just sounding insulting and arrogant - even though I understand that's not your intention. They don't understand why you are saying this or about people who are non-Jewish attempting to do Shabbat so it comes off very smug and elitist and I know that's not what you intended or want.
We all really need to be careful and understanding. I also don't want attacks or bashing on their religious beliefs. This isn't the place and they love Israel and only wish to help. It's cruel to accept help from our wonderful Christian members and then turn around and tell them "you don't care if they worship a tree". Understandably, as Jews, we reject some of their beliefs but we don't have to be harsh and cruel about it.
They speak like this over on the splinter forum but I will not allow our Christian members to be attacked. We need UNITY in order to become success and become a mass movement. I love and care about them and they are trying to join us in order to help save this planet. Let's focus on the muslim nazis (like obama) and show a little more respect and kindness towards those who believe differently than you. We are supposed to be a light to the nations... not just the Jews. We have a responsibility to act with kindness and understanding. We have a responsibility to emulate the Creator.
momofsixbabes,
We have a difference here in religious belief and that's going to happen from time to time. We do the things that G-d commands us (the Laws in the Torah) because G-d commands us to and commands us for every generation. I just wanted to explain. We believe that G-d is kind and wouldn't give us commandments that we could not achieve. We strive to do these things out of love and awe of our magnificent and majestic Creator because we understand that G-d is one and that He's perfect. I hope that helps.
-Shlomo
Amen, we need unity here.....