JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Americanhero1 on December 19, 2008, 11:13:26 AM
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ROGERS, Ark. – An Arkansas woman has given birth to her 18th child. Michelle Duggar delivered the baby girl by Caesarean section Thursday at Mercy Medical Center in Rogers. The baby, named Jordyn-Grace Makiya Duggar, weighed 7 pounds, 3 ounces and was 20 inches long.
"The ultimate Christmas gift from God," said Jim Bob Duggar, the father of the 18 children. "She's just absolutely beautiful, like her mom and her sisters."
The Duggars now have 10 sons and eight daughters.
Jim Bob Duggar said Michelle started having contractions Wednesday night. She needed the C-section, her third, because the baby was lying sideways. Jim Bob said both baby and mother were doing well Thursday night.
"We both would love to have more," he said.
The cable network TLC broadcasts a weekly show about the Duggars, called "17 Kids and Counting." Chris Finnegan of TLC — which handles public relations for the Duggar family — said the show's name would be updated to account for the latest addition to the family. He said TLC also will air a show Monday on the baby's delivery.
Jim Bob Duggar is 43, a year older than his wife. Their oldest child, Joshua, is 20.
The other Duggar children, in between Joshua and Jordyn-Grace, are Jana, 18; John-David, 18; Jill, 17; Jessa, 16; Jinger, 14; Joseph, 13; Josiah, 12; Joy-Anna, 11; Jeremiah, 9; Jedidiah, 9; Jason, 8; James, 7; Justin, 6; Jackson, 4; Johannah, 3; and Jennifer, 1.
"Our whole family is excited about Jordyn's addition to our family," Jim Bob Duggar said. "She's just perfect in every way."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/18th_baby
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The Duggers, they're a very nice, righteous Christian family. A really big one! ;D
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Maybe they should ask santa for a box of condoms.
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they say its god's will for them to have children. 18 wow what a feat. At least they have children out of love and not like the muslims they create so they can get more govt assistance
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By the way. People are amazed at why the Amish are growing so rapidly in this country. (Doubling every 20 years). They all have 8 kids.
Unfortunately... so do Muslims >:(
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Maybe they should ask santa for a box of condoms.
That's not funny. I would consider 18 children to be the greatest blessing. I don't get people who look at children as a burden.
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Maybe they should ask santa for a box of condoms.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with good, righteous people having large families. These people are not welfare leeches, but good, honest, hard working Americans. In fact, there should be more good, hard working righteous gentiles and Jews having large families. As it is now, it's only moosies, criminal illegal aliens, and natives of Africa having large families. Believe me, Americans do not want to be a minority in their own country.
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I can shed some light on this. The Duggars belong to a Christian sect known as "quiverfulls". They believe G-d commands Christians to have as many children as possible, and even that only the "quiverfulls" are real Christians.
In principle I have no problem with their family-size choice (as long as they can properly take care of all these kids without taxpayer help!). Theologically, I have a huge problem with them.
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with good, righteous people having large families. These people are not welfare leeches, but good, honest, hard working Americans. In fact, there should be more good, hard working righteous gentiles and Jews having large families. As it is now, it's only moosies, criminal illegal aliens, and natives of Africa having large families. Believe me, Americans do not want to be a minority in their own country.
For the most part, I agree with you. I have no reason to believe the Duggars are not an honest, hard-working, patriotic family. I don't care about family size provided people are able to take care of whatever number of children they have. My problem with them is the theology behind it--that they believe that this is required of them and other Christians.
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with good, righteous people having large families. These people are not welfare leeches, but good, honest, hard working Americans. In fact, there should be more good, hard working righteous gentiles and Jews having large families. As it is now, it's only moosies, criminal illegal aliens, and natives of Africa having large families. Believe me, Americans do not want to be a minority in their own country.
For the most part, I agree with you. I have no reason to believe the Duggars are not an honest, hard-working, patriotic family. I don't care about family size provided people are able to take care of whatever number of children they have. My problem with them is the theology behind it--that they believe that this is required of them and other Christians.
Well... this was probably 'written in' to their theology to increase their numbers. The Muslims are experts at this. But I look at it this way... Domestic American's are all dwindling in numbers.... and Mexicans, and Muslims are expanding.... so anything to offset this is fine.
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I'm not addressing demographic reasons to have a large family. I just think it is wrong, and unbiblical, to say that you must have a family this size to be a good Christian.
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with good, righteous people having large families. These people are not welfare leeches, but good, honest, hard working Americans. In fact, there should be more good, hard working righteous gentiles and Jews having large families. As it is now, it's only moosies, criminal illegal aliens, and natives of Africa having large families. Believe me, Americans do not want to be a minority in their own country.
For the most part, I agree with you. I have no reason to believe the Duggars are not an honest, hard-working, patriotic family. I don't care about family size provided people are able to take care of whatever number of children they have. My problem with them is the theology behind it--that they believe that this is required of them and other Christians.
America needs this right now, so I'm all for them having full quivers! More power to them!
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The Duggers, they're a very nice, righteous Christian family. A really big one! ;D
YES! They are a great bunch of people. Here is their website: http://www.duggarfamily.com
We need more white families like this!
I remember back in the 1980s, the New York Post had a cover story about a Rov who had 12 children.
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God bless them!
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Most of you here know that I want a big family.. and I think it's just great that there are good Christian families like this. I watched the TLC specials on them (you can find them on zootube), all the kids seem educated, well disciplined and all around good people.
By the way. People are amazed at why the Amish are growing so rapidly in this country. (Doubling every 20 years). They all have 8 kids.
Didn't know that. Problem is they don't have an interest in being part of our world..
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As long as they're not welfare leechers like AH Campbels kudos to them they do live acording to commandments. As their theology goes as far as they don't try to force their belives on me and don't behave like heathens they're OK in my book. CF America is suposed to be free country and G-d will judge us all acording to our deeds and not our neigbours.
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As long as they're not welfare leechers like AH Campbels kudos to them they do live acording to commandments. As their theology goes as far as they don't try to force their belives on me and don't behave like heathens they're OK in my book. CF America is suposed to be free country and G-d will judge us all acording to our deeds and not our neigbours.
You guys keep on missing my point! I have always said that people have the right to have as many children as they like provided they are fit (economically and mentally) parents. My ONLY problem is that they belong to a sect of Christianity that teaches that their family practices make them better Christians than everybody else. Otherwise, I have no problem with them, and I certainly have no problem with righteous forum members like Vito who want many children. I hope that you all find women who agree with you completely in this area and have the same calling.
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ROGERS, Ark. – An Arkansas woman has given birth to her 18th child. Michelle Duggar delivered the baby girl by Caesarean section Thursday at Mercy Medical Center in Rogers. The baby, named Jordyn-Grace Makiya Duggar, weighed 7 pounds, 3 ounces and was 20 inches long.<snip>
In one area of london there are lots of very very religious jews, they have many children.
There's a classic story.. of a rabbi that took his kids - 9 kids - onto a bus. The bus driver said, "why don't you take half one time, come back and then take the other half?" The rabbi said "I have".
He had 18..
I was once in a room(a real room) chatting to somebody that came from that community but left it and became irreligious.. He said he was one of 8 siblings. Then this absolutely crazy girl says to him EIGHT? ONLY EIGHT? Why didn't your mother have more? There must be something wrong with her. If she can't pop out at least 10, there's something wrong with her.. Then he said , well actually she did have a few miscarriages.
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Their family is absolutely beautiful. I think it's wonderful that they have so many kids with good moral upbringing. I don't agree with everything they believe, but if more white women were like Mrs. Duggar then we wouldn't have such a demographic crisis in America.
I was once in a room(a real room) chatting to somebody that came from that community but left it and became irreligious.. He said he was one of 8 siblings. Then this absolutely crazy girl says to him EIGHT? ONLY EIGHT? Why didn't your mother have more? There must be something wrong with her. If she can't pop out at least 10, there's something wrong with her.. Then he said , well actually she did have a few miscarriages.
One bad thing about large families is that the more kids someone has the more likely one of them is going to be abnormal. There's a certain chance in each pregnancy (about 1 percent) for them to have a deformity. I've read up on a lot of deformities and to me it's amazing, with all the things that can go wrong at every stage, that most kids turn out normal.
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I was once in a room(a real room) chatting to somebody that came from that community but left it and became irreligious.. He said he was one of 8 siblings. Then this absolutely crazy girl says to him EIGHT? ONLY EIGHT? Why didn't your mother have more? There must be something wrong with her. If she can't pop out at least 10, there's something wrong with her.. Then he said , well actually she did have a few miscarriages.
One bad thing about large families is that the more kids someone has the more likely one of them is going to be abnormal. There's a certain chance in each pregnancy (about 1 percent) for them to have a deformity. I've read up on a lot of deformities and to me it's amazing, with all the things that can go wrong at every stage, that most kids turn out normal.
though that's like saying that the problem with a nation being large, is that there will be more deformed people.
there will be more of every type.. more intelligent people, more idiots, more scientist types.
You are probably against abortion, but that is always one way of dealing with deformed babys/foetuses.
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I was once in a room(a real room) chatting to somebody that came from that community but left it and became irreligious.. He said he was one of 8 siblings. Then this absolutely crazy girl says to him EIGHT? ONLY EIGHT? Why didn't your mother have more? There must be something wrong with her. If she can't pop out at least 10, there's something wrong with her.. Then he said , well actually she did have a few miscarriages.
One bad thing about large families is that the more kids someone has the more likely one of them is going to be abnormal. There's a certain chance in each pregnancy (about 1 percent) for them to have a deformity. I've read up on a lot of deformities and to me it's amazing, with all the things that can go wrong at every stage, that most kids turn out normal.
though that's like saying that the problem with a nation being large, is that there will be more deformed people.
there will be more of every type.. more intelligent people, more idiots, more scientist types.
You are probably against abortion, but that is always one way of dealing with deformed babys/foetuses.
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Abortion for "deformed" babies is just what Hitler advocated doing, and in fact, did. He did that even before he killed any Jews.
The Nazis' eugenics/euthanasia program was established after they studied the American program by Margaret Sanger, founder of "Planned Parenthood" (her goal was to minimize the number of negros, Italians and Jews in America, since she saw all three groups as mentally unfit.)
I wrote an article about this years ago for the Jews for Life website (not sure if the site still exists.) I used this book for much of my research in writing the article, and now it is available online: http://www.mazal.org/Lifton/LiftonA0.htm
There is no such thing as 'deformed' people, only 'deformed' attitudes toward such people.
I was born with a severe hearing impairment which later turned out to be genetic. If tests had been available for this when I was born, I might not be here. In fact I almost was not born anyway because my mother had a medical condition which sees the unborn baby as a foreign invader and works to destroy the baby after a first pregnancy (Rh disease, for which there was no treatment when I was born.)
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You are probably against abortion, but that is always one way of dealing with deformed babys/foetuses.
I believe they should be allowed to be born and live the best life they can. I'm very upset that people abort babies for deformities.
JewishAmericanPatriot all I can say is Thank God you were born. I'm glad you're here!
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You are probably against abortion, but that is always one way of dealing with deformed babys/foetuses.
You are a disgusting, hideous piece of dreck.
Why you aren't banned is not something I can answer.
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I like QQ and I don't think it's right to say that to him, C.F. I do think that people who are different can be very happy though and deserve to have a chance to live.
Here's a great video about the Hensel twins, who are conjoined in a rare form of conjoining called dicephalus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkKWApOAG2g
They don't let it steal their joy in life.
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I like QQ and I don't think it's right to say that to him, C.F. I do think that people who are different can be very happy though and deserve to have a chance to live.
Here's a great video about the Hensel twins, who are conjoined in a rare form of conjoining called dicephalus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkKWApOAG2g
They don't let it steal their joy in life.
Ruby, you really should follow some of his posts.
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This lady has a great sense of humor and deserved to live too (thalidomide survivor):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foox6xExpt0&feature=related
I think abortion is horrible and murders great people.
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I think abortion is horrible and murders great people.
And I know Chaim agrees.
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:dance: Yeah he is like, "I still got it going on." :dance:
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I think abortion is horrible and murders great people.
And I know Chaim agrees.
I'm glad you're against abortion too C.F.! The most vulnerable babies are the ones with disabilities and I'm happy we agree on protecting them. I don't like many of those prenatal tests that women get. I don't think all of them are necessary and a lot of times they will lead to innocent babies being aborted. Thank God for women like Sarah Palin who choose life.
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You are probably against abortion, but that is always one way of dealing with deformed babys/foetuses.
I believe they should be allowed to be born and live the best life they can. I'm very upset that people abort babies for deformities.
JewishAmericanPatriot all I can say is Thank G-d you were born. I'm glad you're here!
You have a zest for life, but not everybody does. If a baby has a deformity, it's likely that they won't enjoy life.. For one thing, when they grow up they would have endless sexual frustration, as well as endless failures. That happens to alot of people anyway but for them it'd be even worse.
Have you see the film "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" with Steve Martin and Michael Caine. They played 2 pranksters. I saw it a few times, and one time it turned out to be uncut, it showed Steve Martin playing a mentally retarded child, fully clothed, but hanging onto somebody and humping them.. The other person was very uncomfortable and tried to pull him off.
I saw it thinking "gosh, that's probably what some of these kids do"..
Then I was at a wedding waiting to shake the groom's hand, and ahead of me was a mentally retarded person.. He ran up to the groom, said he wanted to dance with him and make him happy, then he pushed his groin against the groom a few times.. "the groom said 'I dont think so' , and held him back"..
It's a fairly grim life, and he'd have to have some really great competent parents or it would be even worse.
Now, looking from a purely ethical point of view, I think aborting the foetus would have been preferable.. Looking at it from an ethical-religious point of view, there are objections.. the point of view of we are all G-d's children and murder is wrong, then you can't. Or judaism's legal view, one can only abort if the foetus endangers the life of the mother. But talking pure personal preferences.. I am not so against it..
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You have a zest for life, but not everybody does. If a baby has a deformity, it's likely that they won't enjoy life.. For one thing, when they grow up they would have endless sexual frustration, as well as endless failures. That happens to alot of people anyway but for them it'd be even worse.
Please somebody drag this schmuck off to an insane asylum.
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You have a zest for life, but not everybody does. If a baby has a deformity, it's likely that they won't enjoy life.. For one thing, when they grow up they would have endless sexual frustration, as well as endless failures. That happens to alot of people anyway but for them it'd be even worse.
Please somebody drag this schmuck off to an insane asylum.
C.F.
Gender:
Posts: 6666
DownwithIslam Fan
I'm sure you can add some more 6s
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You have a zest for life, but not everybody does. If a baby has a deformity, it's likely that they won't enjoy life.. For one thing, when they grow up they would have endless sexual frustration, as well as endless failures. That happens to alot of people anyway but for them it'd be even worse.
Please somebody drag this schmuck off to an insane asylum.
I agree with Chaimfan that children are not to be aborted unless they are shvartza children. No jewish child should be aborted unless the mother is in danger. I don't believe abortion is permitted according to the torah.
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<snip> No jewish child should be aborted unless the mother is in danger. I don't believe abortion is permitted according to the torah.
It is, if the mother is in danger ;-)
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<snip> No jewish child should be aborted unless the mother is in danger. I don't believe abortion is permitted according to the torah.
It is, if the mother is in danger ;-)
Do you support abortion if the mother is not in danger?
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<snip> No jewish child should be aborted unless the mother is in danger. I don't believe abortion is permitted according to the torah.
It is, if the mother is in danger ;-)
Do you support abortion if the mother is not in danger?
I can't support that, it's against judaism
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Ok, I just wanted to clarify that.
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You have a zest for life, but not everybody does. If a baby has a deformity, it's likely that they won't enjoy life.. For one thing, when they grow up they would have endless sexual frustration, as well as endless failures. That happens to alot of people anyway but for them it'd be even worse.
Well as you mentioned, life isn't exactly a bed of roses for anyone. However I think if God didn't want disabled people to live then he wouldn't have gifted them with life at all. Is it right for you to take someone's life away after God granted it? Some people have big ears, some people have ugly faces, and some people have other problems, but we're not all going to be the same as one another and whether physical or otherwise, everyone is going to have some kind of issue that they must face.
Moses/Moshe himself had a speech impediment. Was it right for him to be rescued from the basket?
Have you see the film "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" with Steve Martin and Michael Caine. They played 2 pranksters. I saw it a few times, and one time it turned out to be uncut, it showed Steve Martin playing a mentally retarded child, fully clothed, but hanging onto somebody and humping them.. The other person was very uncomfortable and tried to pull him off.
I saw it thinking "gosh, that's probably what some of these kids do"..
Then I was at a wedding waiting to shake the groom's hand, and ahead of me was a mentally retarded person.. He ran up to the groom, said he wanted to dance with him and make him happy, then he pushed his groin against the groom a few times.. "the groom said 'I dont think so' , and held him back"..
It's a fairly grim life, and he'd have to have some really great competent parents or it would be even worse.
I'm sure that nobody hated those people for doing that or at least they shouldn't. They should have understood that they don't function the same as other people and they made allowances for that behavior to a degree and not gotten angry, even though I can see how it could be embarassing and it did need to be stopped.
Now, looking from a purely ethical point of view, I think aborting the foetus would have been preferable.. Looking at it from an ethical-religious point of view, there are objections.. the point of view of we are all G-d's children and murder is wrong, then you can't. Or judaism's legal view, one can only abort if the foetus endangers the life of the mother. But talking pure personal preferences.. I am not so against it..
There are a lot of disabled people who do live fulfilling lives though. Even some people with some really bad deformities have gone on to live successful and happy lives. Look at Matt Fraser, for example. he does comedy, dances, sings, and has a great life even though thalidomide ruined his arms and hands. I've seen a lot of people with deformities or disabilities while working with the public, and they seem to be going about their lives just like anyone else does, with hard times and good times both.
Life isn't perfect for anyone to begin with, so I don't think we should balk at helping babies through some added challenges in life.
Have you heard of the tri-athlete with Harlequin Icthyosis? I wouldn't recommend looking that disease up because the images of the babies with it are truly horrific. They come out with their skin all cracked and looking almost non-human, but if they can survive with doctor's help, they can go on to be like Ryan Gonzalez, who competes in sports events along with so-called normal people.
Here's a great article about him. He looks a little different but other than his skin condition, he's healthy and living a full life:
http://www.10news.com/health/3919722/detail.html
Also please watch the video of the Hensel twins I posted.
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You have a zest for life, but not everybody does. If a baby has a deformity, it's likely that they won't enjoy life.. For one thing, when they grow up they would have endless sexual frustration, as well as endless failures. That happens to alot of people anyway but for them it'd be even worse.
Please somebody drag this schmuck off to an insane asylum.
I agree with Chaimfan that children are not to be aborted unless they are shvartza children. No jewish child should be aborted unless the mother is in danger. I don't believe abortion is permitted according to the torah.
Very sad to read this, just on a Chanuka night. Abortion to deformed children is a crime, a murder!!!! Why don't murdering all disabled adults as well, then? The only situation when abortion may be considered is when the mother's life is in danger and there is no other way to save her.
DWI: do you suggest that blacks should be aborted? are you supporting a genocide?
To the original topic, I don't care about the theology of that Christian family. If they say that a Christian who does not have a big family is damned to hell...anyway most other Christians also say that if you are not Christian you are damned to hell....
We, Noahides also say that if someone is an idolator, he is condmned and that may hurt Hindus, but we won't change our faith just not to hurt others.
BTW it's correct under Noahide Laws to avoid contraceptives if possible, and some contraceptives are definitely wrong according to many scholars.
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You have a zest for life, but not everybody does. If a baby has a deformity, it's likely that they won't enjoy life.. For one thing, when they grow up they would have endless sexual frustration, as well as endless failures. That happens to alot of people anyway but for them it'd be even worse.
Well as you mentioned, life isn't exactly a bed of roses for anyone. However I think if G-d didn't want disabled people to live then he wouldn't have gifted them with life at all. Is it right for you to take someone's life away after G-d granted it? Some people have big ears, some people have ugly faces, and some people have other problems, but we're not all going to be the same as one another and whether physical or otherwise, everyone is going to have some kind of issue that they must face.
Moses/Moshe himself had a speech impediment. Was it right for him to be rescued from the basket?
Chances are though, that if they are as important as moses, G-d is going to save them for them to do the task he set them, just as he did Moses.
Putting aside the Moses thought. And considering the seriously retarded kid with, the humping is typical of a kid in that condition. Even with a loving parent they don't go on to live a fulfilling life.
You give some examples of ones that have lived fulfilling lives. These are people with their brain intact. A good mind can overcome tremendous obstacles.
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You make a great point about people with messed up bodies but intact minds having a better chance of leading a fulfilling life.
I think it's better to be physically disabled than mentally disabled. Most people I speak to are more frightened of Alzheimers than they are of losing mobility when they get older.
However we don't really know what it's like for the person with a mental deficiency to live as they live. Maybe he thought it was a funny joke that other people just didn't get. I've seen the kids with Downs come into my workplace to do busywork sometimes and they do smile and laugh but of course they get bored easily because they have a short attention span. I helped out in a summer school once with lots of mentally disabled kids and most of them seemed like they were happy most of the time, they just weren't "normal" to other people. They've never known any other way of being, so like the Hensel twins adapted to working in unison to move their shared body, these kids adapt to the minds they're given, and function with what they have available to them. Just because we don't think we would be happy like that, doesn't mean they can't be.
I think it's our duty as fellow human beings to show them compassion and help them, and maybe it's their duty to teach us to have patience and other virtues. Do you believe every life has a purpose?
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I agree with Chaimfan that children are not to be aborted unless they are shvartza children. No jewish child should be aborted unless the mother is in danger. I don't believe abortion is permitted according to the torah.
I don't think black children should be aborted, because they are still innocent at that stage. The fact that blacks have more abortions than any other race only proves what a despicable, perverse, low-life culture they have and how evil they all are.
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I agree with Chaimfan that children are not to be aborted unless they are shvartza children. No jewish child should be aborted unless the mother is in danger. I don't believe abortion is permitted according to the torah.
I don't think black children should be aborted, because they are still innocent at that stage. The fact that blacks have more abortions than any other race only proves what a despicable, perverse, low-life culture they have and how evil they all are.
I don't agree with abortion of any still-innocent baby either C.F. I think that blacks should be born in Africa though if they're not willing to stop using the welfare system to live on or affirmative action to get a good job.
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Can even a Hamish couple produce 18 children and feed, clothe, properly educate them, and give them adequate medical care, all without using Welfare? Just a question. Also, how about individual parental love and guidance? It all looks to me like a relic from an earlier age. We've got three children, and that keeps us busy enough.
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Can even a Hamish couple produce 18 children and feed, clothe, properly educate them, and give them adequate medical care, all without using Welfare? Just a question.
Some could, but why would they do that when they can so easily leach from the system?
Also, how about individual parental love and guidance? It all looks to me like a relic from an earlier age. We've got three children, and that keeps us busy enough.
I'm glad you have three children, but I think that it's ok for people to have more, and each baby will still be a unique son or daughter and will be loved as a distinct person, especially in a family like the Duggars where they take a real interest in molding their children in the right way to be moral people.
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I agree with Chaimfan that children are not to be aborted unless they are shvartza children. No jewish child should be aborted unless the mother is in danger. I don't believe abortion is permitted according to the torah.
I don't think black children should be aborted, because they are still innocent at that stage. The fact that blacks have more abortions than any other race only proves what a despicable, perverse, low-life culture they have and how evil they all are.
Believe it or not.... a large percentage of indigenous cultures performed abortions. They had all sorts of strange rationale... such as they believed the unborn would become a devil... or something like that.....
Abortion is in many ways.... out culture reverting to this type of barbarism.
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You are probably against abortion, but that is always one way of dealing with deformed babys/foetuses.
I believe they should be allowed to be born and live the best life they can. I'm very upset that people abort babies for deformities.
JewishAmericanPatriot all I can say is Thank G-d you were born. I'm glad you're here!
I am too! :) If abortion had been legal in the late 1950s, I would most likely not be here (back then the only kind of abortion allowed was "therapeutic abortion", done to save the life of the mother. Since an abortion would not be to save my mother's life but to prevent her from possibly having a stillborn baby due to Rh disease, she was not able to get one.)
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I think abortion is horrible and murders great people.
And I know Chaim agrees.
I'm glad you're against abortion too C.F.! The most vulnerable babies are the ones with disabilities and I'm happy we agree on protecting them. I don't like many of those prenatal tests that women get. I don't think all of them are necessary and a lot of times they will lead to innocent babies being aborted. Thank G-d for women like Sarah Palin who choose life.
You know, about 12 years ago I was a victim of severe cyberstalking by a woman who had aborted a baby when she was SEVEN months preg because the baby had Trisomy 13. I had lost four babies (they were stillborn) in between my youngest and oldest daughters, and I formed a support group online for other women who had lost babies too.
This woman wanted to join, and I had to explain that our group was for women who wanted their babies and lost them through no fault of our own...I felt that the other women in the group would be very offended if I let her join, considering she paid to have her baby aborted because the baby was "not perfect".
Well! She went crazy on me, researched me, called my home, sent me hate mail at my home address, called relatives (!), tried to get my website taken down, the works! Its one reason why I'm extremely privacy-conscious now.
I used to have a website educating people against abortion esp. for birth defects....and when I was preg with my oldest daughter, my beliefs were put to the test. Tests indicated she might have spina bifida, and an ultrasound seemed to confirm it. My dr wanted me to have an amniocentesis, but I told him I would not do it because I wouldn't do anything with the information anyway.
THAT was a MAIN reason why I absolutely fell in love with Sarah Palin when McCain chose her! The very first thing I heard about her was that she had a baby with Down Syndrome, and that she told her dr the *very same thing I told mine* (i.e., I won't do anything with the information).
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Was your baby healthy or did she have a health problem? Also I think it's great that you had that support group. I hope if you had to stop that one day you can have it again.
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Maybe they should ask santa for a box of condoms.
That is uncalled for, we promote the idea of righteous couples to have as many children as they can get, and this couple are blessed, they are not sponges on the welfare line, so bless them. They sound like they got a great family. I wish more Infidels would follow in those footsteps.
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Was your baby healthy or did she have a health problem? Also I think it's great that you had that support group. I hope if you had to stop that one day you can have it again.
Baruch Hashem, my daughter was born absolutely healthy; the tests had been wrong (people forget that doctors can be wrong!) The MSAFP test was incorrect, and the ultrasound was too.
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I'm so glad your baby was healthy! I think maybe God was putting you to a test.
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You make a great point about people with messed up bodies but intact minds having a better chance of leading a fulfilling life.
I think it's better to be physically disabled than mentally disabled. Most people I speak to are more frightened of Alzheimers than they are of losing mobility when they get older.
However we don't really know what it's like for the person with a mental deficiency to live as they live. Maybe he thought it was a funny joke that other people just didn't get. I've seen the kids with Downs come into my workplace to do busywork sometimes and they do smile and laugh but of course they get bored easily because they have a short attention span. I helped out in a summer school once with lots of mentally disabled kids and most of them seemed like they were happy most of the time, they just weren't "normal" to other people. They've never known any other way of being, so like the Hensel twins adapted to working in unison to move their shared body, these kids adapt to the minds they're given, and function with what they have available to them. Just because we don't think we would be happy like that, doesn't mean they can't be.
I think it's our duty as fellow human beings to show them compassion and help them, and maybe it's their duty to teach us to have patience and other virtues. Do you believe every life has a purpose?
Regarding the (seriously) mentally retarded.. I don't think it is that significant if they are happy or not. Maybe a miserable one if he were able to contemplate his situation would prefer that over being happy and oblivious. "I think therefore I am". It's good that they do get alot of happyness during the day though.. they are under very good care.
Regarding the question.. do I believe that every life has a purpose..
There would be serving G-d
Making the world good (which is probably just something that follows from that)
But aside from that.
People often ask What is the point/purpose in life, and they come to the conclusion that there is no purpose.
The thing that often follows from that is "why do anything?". "no point".
The interesting thing though is that you can also draw the opposite conclusion, of "why not do anything" (provided it doesn't hurt anybody else, and it's not against G-d)
The implication of that is, that we can define our own purpose
(as great as that sounds, ultimately one tends to end up working daily and producing / providing / caring for a family! paying bills, saving for good healthcare. So most people end up with largely the same purpose, and very limited time for much else. But even given that, one can lead a life of purpose, and that is fulfilling)
Of course, this is all well and good. But What about the mentally disabled..
I think one of the things you said, suggests a very logical answer.. not too speculative..
You said that 1% of pregnancies goes wrong and a child comes out very wrong e.g. deformed..
If so, then for that one deformed child, 99 others will come out fine.
And if it wasn't him, it would be somebody else. It's a price that for some reason, G-d or just nature has made him pay, but that price serves an enormously meaningful purpose.
I heard a similar answer regarding earthquakes.
Similarly, natural selection seems harsh at the time, but a beauty of it is that it does help to ensure that the next generation has it better.
Just like cars produce gas emissions.
Soon with medicine we will able to treat deformed foetuses in the womb..
A bit like how we now have some cars that are solar powered.
Problem solved at source. A complex system has some costs to using it, some prices to be paid. But now it no longer has it, thanks to man's technological advances.
Modern medicine can already test parents to see if e.g. both are carriers of common genetic diseases. A bit like how modern science can help people avoid earthquakes. (large problem worked around..by avoiding the problem, though not solving it at source)
I wrote this post some days ago, I was tapping it into notepad or a JTF.ORG forum textbox, but there was a powercut for a moment, I was on a regular computer - not a laptop with a battery(effectively a UPS!) - and the computer went off and on, effectively resetting. It actually confirms my point. The electricity system is still used because it works, but there are these little(or usually relatively small) prices to pay for it to work! The price is always relatively small, if it was too high we'd all just give up on it.
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Since the incidence is relatively low I have to wonder if maybe God isn't testing people like Sarah Palin or others to see what they will do.
I feel a little torn on the issue of medically preventing deformity because one of the major ways in which this is going to happen is for several embryos to be examined for genetic defects and then only the healthy ones would be implanted. The unhealthy ones would be discarded. I feel uncomfortable with this. I know the human body rejects most conceptus and doesn't allow them to implant, so I'm not so much against birth control. However once the embryos reach the 8 cell stage they've already begun to form and it makes me very queasy to think of discarding these.
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Since the incidence is relatively low I have to wonder if maybe G-d isn't testing people like Sarah Palin or others to see what they will do.
I feel a little torn on the issue of medically preventing deformity because one of the major ways in which this is going to happen is for several embryos to be examined for genetic defects and then only the healthy ones would be implanted. The unhealthy ones would be discarded. I feel uncomfortable with this. I know the human body rejects most conceptus and doesn't allow them to implant, so I'm not so much against birth control. However once the embryos reach the 8 cell stage they've already begun to form and it makes me very queasy to think of discarding these.
I agree with you, re: testing. As a rabbi once said to me, G-d tests those who claim to follow Him, to see with whom He can 'do business'. He tested Avram Aveinu as well!
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Since the incidence is relatively low I have to wonder if maybe G-d isn't testing people like Sarah Palin or others to see what they will do.
I feel a little torn on the issue of medically preventing deformity because one of the major ways in which this is going to happen is for several embryos to be examined for genetic defects and then only the healthy ones would be implanted. The unhealthy ones would be discarded. I feel uncomfortable with this. I know the human body rejects most conceptus and doesn't allow them to implant, so I'm not so much against birth control. However once the embryos reach the 8 cell stage they've already begun to form and it makes me very queasy to think of discarding these.
I agree with you, re: testing. As a rabbi once said to me, G-d tests those who claim to follow Him, to see with whom He can 'do business'. He tested Avram Aveinu as well!
If you are talking to a religious christian, do you normally talk about AVRAHAM AVINU(abraham our father) ? MOSHE RABBEINU(moses our teacher) , e.t.c. or do you adapt.
An intelligent religious jew uses hebrew phrases like that when talking to other religious jews. Imagine uses these phrases with a non-jewish neighbour. It's just a stupid thing to do. It's unnecessary.
Muslims do it because they want the world to talk about Ibrahim, Ishaq, Yakub, Musa and Isa and the rest. But we don't. Hebrew is a or the language for jews, and judaism is the religion for only jews. The term Moshe Rabbeinu e.t.c. is both hebrew and a classic title from judaism.
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Since the incidence is relatively low I have to wonder if maybe G-d isn't testing people like Sarah Palin or others to see what they will do.
I feel a little torn on the issue of medically preventing deformity because one of the major ways in which this is going to happen is for several embryos to be examined for genetic defects and then only the healthy ones would be implanted. The unhealthy ones would be discarded. I feel uncomfortable with this. I know the human body rejects most conceptus and doesn't allow them to implant, so I'm not so much against birth control. However once the embryos reach the 8 cell stage they've already begun to form and it makes me very queasy to think of discarding these.
I agree with you, re: testing. As a rabbi once said to me, G-d tests those who claim to follow Him, to see with whom He can 'do business'. He tested Avram Aveinu as well!
If you are talking to a religious christian, do you normally talk about AVRAHAM AVINU(abraham our father) ? MOSHE RABBEINU(moses our teacher) , e.t.c. or do you adapt.
An intelligent religious jew uses hebrew phrases like that when talking to other religious jews. Imagine uses these phrases with a non-jewish neighbour. It's just a stupid thing to do. It's unnecessary.
Muslims do it because they want the world to talk about Ibrahim, Ishaq, Yakub, Musa and Isa and the rest. But we don't. Hebrew is a or the language for jews, and judaism is the religion for only jews. The term Moshe Rabbeinu e.t.c. is both hebrew and a classic title from judaism.
I assumed that since Rubystars is a frequent poster here, she would understand terms such as "Avram Aveinu" (Abraham our father). I usually use that term so its normal for me to use it routinely.
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I assumed that since Rubystars is a frequent poster here, she would understand terms such as "Avram Aveinu" (Abraham our father). I usually use that term so its normal for me to use it routinely.
Gentiles will also understand Abram or Abraham. No need to write the hebrew phrase. Rubystars is really intelligent and wise. But not everybody is. As a general rule, don't use these phrases or some gentiles will start running around talking about Avraham Avinu. People may even think they are jewish, and they will blur things and secular jews will get really messed up meeting those types.
Rabbis also use these terms often / routinely *When talking to religious jews. * When talking to gentiles e.g. the media, they don't. Not because it won't be understood. But because these phrases are for jews.. it's hebrew and solely from judaism.
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Thank you for the compliment QQ :)