JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Sefardic Panther on February 05, 2009, 04:01:59 PM
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I am posting these basic biological facts for the benefit of any secular Jews who are under the delusion that Toranic laws are “old superstition”.
Pork
Pigs are notorious for eating anything including their own and any other urine, excrement, dirt, maggots and decaying animal flesh. They will even eat the cancerous growths off other pigs. A pig will eat sick and infected animals, including its own piglets that die from disease.
All the clean animals Hashem said we could eat live only on vegetation! Cows have 4 stomachs and they take over 24 hours to digest their vegetarian diet causing their food to be purified of toxins. In contrast, the pig's single stomach takes only about 4 hours to digest its foul diet, turning its toxic food into flesh.
When a pig is butchered, worms and insects take to its flesh sooner and faster than to other animal's flesh. In a few days the pig flesh is full of worms.
Pigs are notorious for being infected with parasites and tapeworms because they roll around in excrement most of their lives. Pigs have over a dozen parasites within them, such as tapeworms, flukes and trichinae. There is no safe temperature at which pork can be cooked to ensure that all these parasites, their cysts and eggs will be killed.
The trichinae worm is microscopically small, and once ingested can lodge itself in the intestines, muscles, spinal cord or the brain. This results in the disease trichinosis. The symptoms are sometimes lacking, but when present they are mistaken for other diseases, such as typhoid, arthritis, rheumatism, gastritis, MS, meningitis or gall bladder trouble.
Pig meat has twice as much fat as beef and people that consume pork products all the time tend to be overweight and unhealthy.
Pigs are so poisonous that you cannot kill them with strychnine or other poisons.
Doctors use pig fat as a good medium for growing cancer viruses.
I cannot understand why people thought pigs were a good food source. The same people who would never dream of frying slices of rat fry slices of pig all the time and a pig has the same diet as a rat!!! Doctors and scientists must stop wasting time demonising tobacco and instead make the above facts about pork known!!! I bet people who keep kosher and smoke the nargile are far healthier and live far longer than people who eat sausages and bacon for breakfast every day!!!
Shellfish
Shellfish consists of lobster, shrimp, oysters, clams, crabs, scallops, and mussels. All shellfish can be a serious health risk. Like pigs, they are scavengers that live at the bottom of the ocean and eat the waste of other animals and the waste that is pumped into the ocean.
Poisoning from shellfish can come from bacterial or viral contamination. Poisoning can also arise from heat-stable toxins derived from the food that the shellfish have been eating. Shellfish are notorious for being high in mercury, heavy metals, and industrial contaminants in the environment because they are bottom feeders that eat the ocean's waste.
There is a direct relationship between shellfish consumption and cancer. I think it is selfish that doctors don’t warn about shellfish!!!
Blood
Blood transports bodily wastes and poisons to excretory ducts in the body. Infectious diseases such as tuberculosis can be transmitted to humans by ingesting blood of diseased animals.
Kosher butchers are so hygienic that they have been exempted from many USDA regulations.
Circumcision
Bacteria flourish under foreskin! In 1947 a study of 1300 consecutive patients in a Canadian Army unit showed that being uncircumcised was associated with a 9-fold higher risk of syphilis and 3-times more gonorrhea. In Australia a study in 1992 showed that uncircumcised men had more chlamidia. Similarly in 1988 a study in Seattle of 2,800 heterosexual men reported higher syphilis and gonnorrhea in uncircumcised men. Uncircumcised men have a 12-fold higher risk of urinary tract infections. Penile cancer never occurs in men circumcised at birth.
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Interesting.
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SP,
We must also be reminded that the reason we were commanded to not eat pork was not simply because it was an unclean animal. That is the simple understanding and sometimes people use it to justify not keeping kosher. The reasons for the mitzvot are to provide the Jewish people a way to come close to Hashem.
From http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/149,2136422/The-Mysterious-Tefillin.html
The essence of the Torah is its commandments, mitzvahs in Hebrew. The word Mitzvah comes from the root meaning "to bind." Every commandment or mitzvah serves to draw us close to G-d and strengthen this connection.
From http://www.milknhoney.co.il/torah/shabbat.html
To this I will give the classic answer that the purpose of the Mitzvot is to come closer to G-d. The humanistic Mitzvot bring us closer to G-d. When we perform humanistic Mitzvot we are actually mimicking the ways of G-d. This is discussed by our Rabbis of blessed memory. Just as G-d is merciful so you should be merciful... just as G-d is slow to get angry so that is how you should be.
It is only human to try to seek out the 'reason' for the mitzvah but we must remember that our reason is only our understanding of why we have a special command. I often don't seek to answer questions about why I do any particular command.
One more quote: http://www.torah.org/features/spirfocus/whatisamitzvah.html#
Mitzvah: Relationship with God
The greatest question of them all is "What is the purpose of life?" The Torah explains that the purpose of human existence is to achieve closeness to God. This is attained via living in accordance with the 613 commandments because each mitzvah, in its own unique way, contains the means for man to forge a relationship with God.
Judaism is not as much a religion as it is a relationship. It is only through mitzvah observance that man can build a deep, enduring, and meaningful relationship with God. The Jew knows that the key to every good relationship is the obligations that it confers. It is a given that the stronger and more intimate the relationship, the more intense the level of responsibility. A husband's commitment to his wife is naturally in a different league than his commitment to a casual acquaintance. Every mitzvah is a demonstration of the fulfillment of obligations because of the close relationship between man and God. That a mitzvah is the very process of forging the bond is contained within the very word mitzvah "commandment," closely related to the word tzavta, meaning "a connection" or "a binding." Mitzvah performance creates a connection between God, the Commander, and man, the one being commanded.
Baruch Hashem!
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(Only glanced at the article), but would like to add that it's not only pork that is terrible. All non-kosher foods have a negative effect on the spiritual "body" of the person, the Tzelem, which is also connected to the physical actually.
But about it being also disgusting, etc. I would also like to add that non-kosher beef for example also is disgusting because w/o the proper koshering method all the liquids remain in the animal. That is why their are those who say that non-kosher beef is tastier then kosher. That is b/c the piss and all the other juices aren't taken out properly (glatt-kosher Beit Yosef takes is out quickly within 72 hours I believe by salting).
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Yes indeed muman613. I think Hashem made pork, foreskin etc. dangerous to punish Jews for not performing Mitzwoth and to compel them to perform Mitzwoth.
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That first post reminds me of things my Italian grandmother used to tell me, lol.
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There is no safe temperature at which pork can be cooked to ensure that all these parasites, their cysts and eggs will be killed.
Wrong! All proteins break at ca 70 degree celsius temperature.
Pig meat has twice as much fat as beef and people that consume pork products all the time tend to be overweight and unhealthy.
True! But the gain of weight depends on your physically work. I.e. there are farmers in Switzerland on the mountains, who eat much more sausages and ham than every other people and they didn't gain weight, because they work so hard. Actually they are very skinny.
Pigs are so poisonous that you cannot kill them with strychnine or other poisons.
This is wrong. Strychnine is a neurotoxin. It will kill any pig very fast.
Shellfish consists of lobster, shrimp, oysters, clams, crabs, scallops, and mussels. All shellfish can be a serious health risk. Like pigs, they are scavengers that live at the bottom of the ocean and eat the waste of other animals and the waste that is pumped into the ocean.
Some of this is true, but you put thousands of species in a container.
Scallops filtrate the water and they take a lot of poisons out of them.
But there are other species like lobster and crabs that basically live like fishes.
I think the sentence of Tzvi is right (for Jews):
All non-kosher foods have a negative effect on the spiritual "body" of the person, the Tzelem, which is also connected to the physical actually.
But this sentence is wrong:
But about it being also disgusting, etc. I would also like to add that non-kosher beef for example also is disgusting because w/o the proper koshering method all the liquids remain in the animal. That is why their are those who say that non-kosher beef is tastier then kosher.
People are willing to pay much higher prices for kosher animals than to non kosher animals. I mean a kilo of pork is a lot of cheaper than a kilo of beef.
This is obviously true. If pork would taste better than beef it would be contrariwise, because more people would like to buy pork than beef.
I personally prefer kosher animals. The taste is better and the texture is better.
Pork you can only make tasty by doing lots of cooking tricks with it.
But beef, goat or sheep you can put in the pan with only oil, salt and pepper and it is devine. :)
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"People are willing to pay much higher prices for kosher animals than to non kosher animals. I mean a kilo of pork is a lot of cheaper than a kilo of beef."
I meant the same animal (one properly killed and salted, the other not).
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"People are willing to pay much higher prices for kosher animals than to non kosher animals. I mean a kilo of pork is a lot of cheaper than a kilo of beef."
I meant the same animal (one properly killed and salted, the other not).
Oh sorry. I apologize.
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Pheasant those swiss farmers are probably very skinny because they have worms from all the pork they eat.
I advise people to research the above facts I posted. The diseases people can get from eating pork and the diseases men can get from not being circumcised are very serious! Trichinosis, cancer and syphilis are very difficult or impossible to cure. Is Hashem punishing people for not fallowing the Torah?
Yeshayahu 66:17 –
Hamithqadshim wehamitaharim el-haganoth ahar ahath batawech ocheley besar hahazir wehasheqets weha'achbar yahdaw yasufu neum-Ahdoshem
(Those who sanctify and purify themselves, in the gardens, behind one in the midst, eating pig's flesh, detestable things, and the mouse, will perish together, says G-d)
Shabat shalom and enjoy your kosher meal tonight!
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Personally I believe the religous rules against consuming pork are just that, and as a matter of honourable tradition and culture are entirely fine. However, with regard to attempting to justify it on health grounds I have a problem - I would respectfully disagree with most of these arguments, except for the tapeworm danger. Probably this is why the Muslims and Hottentots also refrain from eating pork. As for the character of pigs, I am told that in the wild they are very clean, and devoted to their young. But why the passion? If you don't want to eat it, don't. Personally I find pork and it's derivatives (bacon, ham) delicious. If someone doesn't like the taste then, again, why eat it? It's a personal matter. As for circumcision, which to my mind is a totally different matter, again the muslims and hottentots would agree with you forcefully. My understanding is that circumcision is not the only cause of sexually transmitted diseases, but again this is a personal matter and I cannot understand why anyone should wish to dictate on this except on grounds of religous tradition. As a medical lecturer once said, you can indeed catch syphilis on a toilet seat but this is one hell of a place to do it.
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Personally I believe the religous rules against consuming pork are just that, and as a matter of honourable tradition and culture are entirely fine. However, with regard to attempting to justify it on health grounds I have a problem - I would respectfully disagree with most of these arguments, except for the tapeworm danger. Probably this is why the Muslims and Hottentots also refrain from eating pork. As for the character of pigs, I am told that in the wild they are very clean, and devoted to their young. But why the passion? If you don't want to eat it, don't. Personally I find pork and it's derivatives (bacon, ham) delicious. If someone doesn't like the taste then, again, why eat it? It's a personal matter. As for circumcision, which to my mind is a totally different matter, again the muslims and hottentots would agree with you forcefully. My understanding is that circumcision is not the only cause of sexually transmitted diseases, but again this is a personal matter and I cannot understand why anyone should wish to dictate on this except on grounds of religous tradition. As a medical lecturer once said, you can indeed catch syphilis on a toilet seat but this is one hell of a place to do it.
You are somewhat correct, that the main intention and reason is because G-d said soo, BUT it is also great to then say the logical reasons that are discovered hundreds or even thousands of years later. This goes for circumcision, for Tefillin (meditation tool, makes one reach high auro levels smarter, etc.) , not wearing shatnez (which was discovered by Japanese to cause cancer), and many many more. When said correctly it causes people to see that G-d is Great and what He says is for the best and for our welness in this world and the next.
When used innapropriatly then it is bad. For example someone saying- pigs are not kosher because (and only because) at the time of the giving of the Torah, pigs were dirty, but now we can raise them clean so therefore they are okay to eat.
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Pheasant those swiss farmers are probably very skinny because they have worms from all the pork they eat.
I advise people to research the above facts I posted. The diseases people can get from eating pork and the diseases men can get from not being circumcised are very serious! Trichinosis, cancer and syphilis are very difficult or impossible to cure. Is Hashem punishing people for not fallowing the Torah?
Yeshayahu 66:17 –
Hamithqadshim wehamitaharim el-haganoth ahar ahath batawech ocheley besar hahazir wehasheqets weha'achbar yahdaw yasufu neum-Ahdoshem
(Those who sanctify and purify themselves, in the gardens, behind one in the midst, eating pig's flesh, detestable things, and the mouse, will perish together, says G-d)
Shabat shalom and enjoy your kosher meal tonight!
I think, that the worm danger is only serious, if you don't heat the meat enough.
In my country there is a tradition to eat raw pig meat, which is put into a passing machine. It is called "Mett". It is served with salt & pepper as well as fresh thin sliced onions.
This is indeed dangerous. I have eaten this kind of dish twice. Friends of me have invited me to.
But this is dangerous, like pufferfish.
All protein-chains break at ca. 70 degree celsius. The DNA is destroyed too at this temperatures.
Please read this issue on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturation_(biochemistry)
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I have never eaten raw pork, and would never do so for obvious health reasons. However, I did once attend a German Embassy reception in which they served raw minced beef mixed with onion - a sort of "steak tartare". I ate it voraciously and thoroughly enjoyed it. In France I pursue steak tartare but rarely find it nowadays - I believe that there are again parasite concerns, which has lead to them often using horse meat instead of steak. But I guess a rare steak is much the same sort of thing, though there the variant CDG is probably nowadays a far more serious threat.
Now I'm going to shut up and get out of this Torah-Jewish Idea forum before I seriously offend someone..
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Carreg the way I look at it is this the Torah and Judaism is not a religion it is fact!!! The Torah was revealed to the Yehudim just as in a manner of speaking the law of gravitation was revealed to an english man sir Isaac Newton. I am not an english man so if I jump out the window will the law of gravitation not apply to me?
Don’t get me wrong I am not saying that the Toranic laws were only given for health reasons. My interpretation is if Hashem said pork was kosher and beef was’nt then it would be the cow that lived like a rat diseased and eating waste. I think Hashem made the pig dirty because He gave a rule not to eat pork. He has set a trap for people who break this rule.
In the wild pigs are even dirtier and live like rats. In third world countries where there is no sewerage system pigs come and eat the human urine and excrement out of the toilets. Raising pigs clean on modern western farms would not make them clean. I think trichinosis is a physical manifestation of the spiritual damage caused by eating pork and I would bet that if you ate a pig with no diseases (if there is such a thing) the spiritual damage would manifest in some other way.
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I'd still recommend condoms over circumcision as a way of avoiding syphilis.
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If a non-Jew avoids eating meat, fish, eggs, onion, garlic, mushrooms, fermented products (including yeast, all year round) coffee, tea and chocolate, are they actually keeping kosher without realising it?
I am only asking because this is the diet recommended to yoga practioners, and it is known as the 'satvik' diet in India.
:)
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If a non-Jew avoids eating meat, fish, eggs, onion, garlic, mushrooms, fermented products (including yeast, all year round) coffee, tea and chocolate, are they actually keeping kosher without realising it?
I am only asking because this is the diet recommended to yoga practioners, and it is known as the 'satvik' diet in India.
:)
Mushrooms, like all fungi, store carboydrates as glycogen, and do not have cellulose cell walls. In the opinion of most independent taxonomists that places them firmly as animals.
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If a non-Jew avoids eating meat, fish, eggs, onion, garlic, mushrooms, fermented products (including yeast, all year round) coffee, tea and chocolate, are they actually keeping kosher without realising it?
I am only asking because this is the diet recommended to yoga practioners, and it is known as the 'satvik' diet in India.
:)
Mushrooms, like all fungi, store carboydrates as glycogen, and do not have cellulose cell walls. In the opinion of most independent taxonomists that places them firmly as animals.
How interesting. In any case, I just avoid them as they are dirty to me.
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If a non-Jew avoids eating meat, fish, eggs, onion, garlic, mushrooms, fermented products (including yeast, all year round) coffee, tea and chocolate, are they actually keeping kosher without realising it?
I am only asking because this is the diet recommended to yoga practioners, and it is known as the 'satvik' diet in India.
:)
Mushrooms, like all fungi, store carboydrates as glycogen, and do not have cellulose cell walls. In the opinion of most independent taxonomists that places them firmly as animals.
How interesting. In any case, I just avoid them as they are dirty to me.
I am vegan and of course I eat mushrooms too. They don't taste like anything from the animal kingdom, well granted there may be some resemblance to shell fish and jellyfish but I don't expect these to taste the same too.
Anyway mushrooms compose a different kingdom of life- not Animal and not Plant.
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If a non-Jew avoids eating meat, fish, eggs, onion, garlic, mushrooms, fermented products (including yeast, all year round) coffee, tea and chocolate,
None of this is unkosher. Only the meat brings an issue of kashrut, which would require proper kosher slaughter to be eaten by a Jew, but a non Jew is not required to keep kosher. And there are other types of food (which you have not mentioned here) which are in fact forbidden for consumption by a Jew, but a non Jew is permitted to eat them.
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Mushrooms, like all fungi, store carboydrates as glycogen, and do not have cellulose cell walls. In the opinion of most independent taxonomists that places them firmly as animals.
Anyway mushrooms compose a different kingdom of life- not Animal and not Plant.
Indeed, mushrooms and other fungi are NOT considered part of the animal kingdom. Fungi make up a separate kingdom.
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Carreg the way I look at it is this the Torah and Judaism is not a religion it is fact!!! The Torah was revealed to the Yehudim just as in a manner of speaking the law of gravitation was revealed to an english man sir Isaac Newton. I am not an english man so if I jump out the window will the law of gravitation not apply to me?
This is not a valid comparison because our understanding of the Torah is that the mitzvoth are not binding on the non Jews aside from the 7 mitzvoth set out for bnei noach. It goes without saying that a person can strive for more and is welcome to convert if they wish to commit to all the Torah, but it is not true that mitzvoth "apply" to them (in the way that the law of gravity applies to all things) if they have not converted and are a non Jew. They are simply not chayav (not obligated).
Don’t get me wrong I am not saying that the Toranic laws were only given for health reasons. My interpretation is if Hashem said pork was kosher and beef was’nt then it would be the cow that lived like a rat diseased and eating waste. I think Hashem made the pig dirty because He gave a rule not to eat pork. He has set a trap for people who break this rule.
That's nice and all, but it would seem that the way our chachamim understand the Torah is that the prohibition against pork was under the class of mitzvoth known as "chukim." Rashi states this explicitly in several places in his commentary on chumash, and I believe he was citing the gemara. But it seems clear that today there is no logical reason why pork should be forbidden. Medically there is not a problem with eating it. And usually the people who want to argue that there were medical problems with eating pork in the past, and that there were medical reasons for the mitzvoth when they were given, are the people who wish to say that because it is no longer an issue, and no longer a medical problem, the mitzvah no longer applies. I'm not sure how you can argue that eating pork is medically damaging or dangerous today.
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Pork is disgusting food. Brrrrr...chicken is the best! :P
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Nonetheless the kosher dietry laws are still proven to have scientific basis.
The Rambam said that all Mitzwoth including chukim have rational basis (Moreh Nevuchim 3:26).
Worms from pork have infact been found in peoples brains. I BS you not!!!
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/PainManagement/Story?id=6309464&page=1
The argument that pork is alright if you cook it enogh is ridiculous! It’s a well known fact that pigs eat worms and excrement so what you are saying is that worms and excrement are good to eat if you cook them enough.
Even if pigs are raised on modern clean farms their meat will still contain an enormous amount of fat in contrast to other types of meat such as beef and lamb. Pigs are physically very obese animals and they are so enriched with fats that anyone whose diet consists of pork outwardly resembles the animal they eat. Even so-called “lean pork” has more fat because a pig’s fat is intra-cellular (particles of fat inside the cells themselves) while in other animals the fat is found almost exclusively outside these cells in the connective tissues in the form of fat cells. This can be seen when even “lean pork” is fried. It immediately releases fat in a hot frying pan and is usually fried in its own fat.
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These are simply the helth benefits and I'd encourage any non Jew to not eat these foods as they are not healthy for not only Reform Jews but for non Jews as well
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The Kabbalah says that kosher animals have the energy of Tiqun while unkosher animals have the energy of Tohu. I don’t think any modern day pig farming regardless how hygienic or any cooking at 70 degrees Celsius or 700 degrees Celsius could alter this fundamental nature of the pig! When we ingest the energy of Tiqun we become more holy when we ingest the energy of Tohu we become more evil. In other words you are what you eat. If someone eats pig they become like a pig, dirty, greedy, lazy etc.
http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/359238/jewish/Kabbalah-on-Pork.htm
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Interesting article
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The Kabbalah says that kosher animals have the energy of Tiqun while unkosher animals have the energy of Tohu. I don’t think any modern day pig farming regardless how hygienic or any cooking at 70 degrees Celsius or 700 degrees Celsius could alter this fundamental nature of the pig! When we ingest the energy of Tiqun we become more holy when we ingest the energy of Tohu we become more evil. In other words you are what you eat. If someone eats pig they become like a pig, dirty, greedy, lazy etc.
http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/359238/jewish/Kabbalah-on-Pork.htm
"Holy" is not a medical term. It's by definition not physical. Holy is a spiritual state.
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Eating pork in Israel is bad, but using Torah to justify left-wing surrender and vivisection of Israel is a thousand times worse. That's exactly what Shas and Agudah do.
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Eating pork in Israel is bad, but using Torah to justify left-wing surrender and vivisection of Israel is a thousand times worse. That's exactly what Shas and Agudah do.
Oh that is 100 percent true. Using the torah to justify political prostitution like shas does is even worse. Saying anyone who votes for "the russian party" will burn in gehenom is using the torah to line your pockets because more knesset seats means more gelt for the party. Wow are these people evil.
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I am going to the gym now so I wont be commenting further on the prostitution of shas until I get back from there.
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The people who spend all of their energy defending these political prostitutes, and who curse those who disagree with them, are also just as evil. Calling Gentile Zionists "goyim" and "yoshka followers" is a terrible Chilul Hashem and will be cursed. These Satmar-like traitors to the Jewish people will burn in hell forever if they do not repent.
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I am going to the gym now so I wont be commenting further on the prostitution of shas until I get back from there.
Yeah, I need to go tutor a friend of mine, see you later.
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Eating pork in Israel is bad, but using Torah to justify left-wing surrender and vivisection of Israel is a thousand times worse. That's exactly what Shas and Agudah do.
What does this have to do with the topic we are discussing? This is not a political discussion, it is concerning the mitzvot of Kashrut.
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The people who spend all of their energy defending these political prostitutes, and who curse those who disagree with them, are also just as evil. Calling Gentile Zionists "goyim" and "yoshka followers" is a terrible Chilul Hashem and will be cursed. These Satmar-like traitors to the Jewish people will burn in hell forever if they do not repent.
Huh? Goyim is the hebrew word for Nations... Why would anyone have any problem being called a nation? Everyday I call non-Jews goyim, just as I call Jews Jews... There are Jews, the holy nation, and non-Jewish nations.
I don't know what this gobbledy gook is doing in this discussion of the dangers of pork... What is it you are trying to accomplish here? You are not discussing Jewish nor Torah ideas, which is the sub-section of the forum which you are posting to.
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I am going to the gym now so I wont be commenting further on the prostitution of shas until I get back from there.
Yeah, I need to go tutor a friend of mine, see you later.
Could you take your crude talk to some other section of the forum. This is not the kind of stuff we discuss in the Torah section.
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Can you explain what was crude?
I didn't even attack anyone in my OP, I criticized two whole entire parties, without singling anyone out or naming names.
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You are not discussing Jewish nor Torah ideas, which is the sub-section of the forum which you are posting to.
I mentioned this because usually pork as a political issue comes from the two parties I named, Shas and Agudah. Banning pork is their top priority. In and of itself, as a Gentile, that is none of my business, and I certainly do not defend pork-eating in the Jewish nation, but it's utter hypocrisy for so-called "religious parties" to get super-worked-up about this part of Torah and yet create all kinds of Bill Clintonesque distortions of logic to Torahically defend surrendering ancient Jewish Biblical land to Amalek, which is exactly what these parties do.
Shas is the party most singularly responsible for denying one Jew (Chaim Ben Pesach) his G-d given right to aliyah too, don't forget.
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You are not discussing Jewish nor Torah ideas, which is the sub-section of the forum which you are posting to.
I mentioned this because usually pork as a political issue comes from the two parties I named, Shas and Agudah. Banning pork is their top priority. In and of itself, as a Gentile, that is none of my business, and I certainly do not defend pork-eating in the Jewish nation, but it's utter hypocrisy for so-called "religious parties" to get super-worked-up about this part of Torah and yet create all kinds of Bill Clintonesque distortions of logic to Torahically defend surrendering ancient Jewish Biblical land to Amalek, which is exactly what these parties do.
Shas is the party most singularly responsible for denying one Jew (Chaim Ben Pesach) his G-d given right to aliyah too, don't forget.
This most certainly belongs here because what shas is doing is distributing mental pork to their fellow jews.
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That is an excellent metaphor DownwithIslam. Shas and their ilk are feeding trusting religious Jews spiritual pork and poisoning and polluting their minds and souls. The truth is that Shas banned Chaim from Israel because they knew he is the antidote to their spiritual toxin. He was going to take all of Shas' voters from them and turn them to the party that he was going to found. This is the only reason why Shas barred Chaim from making aliyah.
But just for the record Muman, I can 100% promise you that I had no intention of criticizing you here. But someone else in this thread made a comment about so-called "yoshka followers" when I criticized Shas in another thread.
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That is an excellent metaphor DownwithIslam. Shas and their ilk are feeding trusting religious Jews spiritual pork and poisoning and polluting their minds and souls. The truth is that Shas banned Chaim from Israel because they knew he is the antidote to their spiritual toxin. He was going to take all of Shas' voters from them and turn them to the party that he was going to found. This is the only reason why Shas barred Chaim from making aliyah.
But just for the record Muman, I can 100% promise you that I had no intention of criticizing you here. But someone else in this thread made a comment about so-called "yoshka followers" when I criticized Shas in another thread.
I wonder who that was. I don't understand why shas supporters even bother coming to kahanist forums to provoke the native kahanists.
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I wonder why Satmars even come here to provoke us. Satmars are even worse than Shas.
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I wonder why Satmars even come here to provoke us. Satmars are even worse than Shas.
Huh? What are you talking about. Satmars are good Jews and I listen to many Chassidic Rabbis, some of whom are Satmar. Who are you to judge them? Now you are really getting on my nerves. You come into the Torah and Jewish ideas forum and start talking like this...
I request that you refrain from this lest I complain to some higher authorities. My patience is running out with some members here, you know who I am talking about..
What other Jews do you curse and speak evil of C.F.? I am really wondering if there is an ounce of humanity in that body of yours. Every single post I have ever read of you was always cursing or speaking ill of somebody. Why don't you do something positive one of these days?
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That is an excellent metaphor DownwithIslam. Shas and their ilk are feeding trusting religious Jews spiritual pork and poisoning and polluting their minds and souls. The truth is that Shas banned Chaim from Israel because they knew he is the antidote to their spiritual toxin. He was going to take all of Shas' voters from them and turn them to the party that he was going to found. This is the only reason why Shas barred Chaim from making aliyah.
But just for the record Muman, I can 100% promise you that I had no intention of criticizing you here. But someone else in this thread made a comment about so-called "yoshka followers" when I criticized Shas in another thread.
I wonder who that was. I don't understand why shas supporters even bother coming to kahanist forums to provoke the native kahanists.
Who here at JTF considers themselves a Shas supporter? I have never heard anyone profess this. I have heard some of the more righteous Jews say that every religious Jew should be respected, and Shas Rabbi should be respected. This is a position I support to, based on very much study of Jewish wisdom.
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Huh? What are you talking about. Satmars are good Jews and I listen to many Chassidic Rabbis, some of whom are Satmar. Who are you to judge them? Now you are really getting on my nerves. You come into the Torah and Jewish ideas forum and start talking like this...
I request that you refrain from this lest I complain to some higher authorities. My patience is running out with some members here, you know who I am talking about..
What other Jews do you curse and speak evil of C.F.? I am really wondering if there is an ounce of humanity in that body of yours. Every single post I have ever read of you was always cursing or speaking ill of somebody. Why don't you do something positive one of these days?
Who here at JTF considers themselves a Shas supporter? I have never heard anyone profess this. I have heard some of the more righteous Jews say that every religious Jew should be respected, and Shas Rabbi should be respected. This is a position I support to, based on very much study of Jewish wisdom.
The quote of you that I have bolded was completely uncalled for, and I expect an apology. No matter how much we disagree, I have not once insulted you.
And moreover, like I said before, my comments were not even directed at you. There is at least one member here who is extremely pro-Shas, but I did not mean you.
I disagree that most Satmars are good Jews. This is the sect of Judaism whose Rav (Teitelbaum) denounced any and all Zionist Jews and even made the absurd statement that the Shoah was G-d's punishment to Jewry for supporting Zionism. If this was true, then why did a greater percentage of Hungarian Satmars perish in the Holocaust (thanks in no small part to the deal that Kastner [yimach schmo] and his friend Teitelbaum had with the Nazis) than almost any other Jewish group?
Many Satmars actively curse and pray against all Zionist Jews and even consider them goyim. That is an abomination in Hashem's eyes, period.
Chaim has said that a few Satmars very quietly took part in JDL activities to free Soviet Jewry, but they were definitely a minority. Satmarism is a cult of Judaism that should be abandoned for true Torah Zionism.
And finally, I criticized the entire Shas party and its political agenda, not any one person or rabbi.
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Muman, we were not referring to you at all. In fact, the shas supporter we were referring to knows who he is. We were not referring to you, honestly. As far as Satmar is concerned, they are not good jews. Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, the original satmar rabbi, wrote the book vayoel moshe in 1961. The entire book is one big call for the physical extermination of all the jews living in israel. He called them satanic and many other things. all satmars subscribe to that and it's why most children in williamsburg are named "yoel." These are not good jews, they are vile.
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Muman, we were not referring to you at all. In fact, the shas supporter we were referring to knows who he is. We were not referring to you, honestly. As far as Satmar is concerned, they are not good jews. Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, the original satmar rabbi, wrote the book vayoel moshe in 1961. The entire book is one big call for the physical extermination of all the jews living in israel. He called them satanic and many other things. all satmars subscribe to that and it's why most children in williamsburg are named "yoel." These are not good jews, they are vile.
What DownwithIslam wrote is 100% accurate. We were not referring to you, Muman, and Satmarism is a terrible cult that should immediately be abandoned for real Judaism.
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Calling Gentile Zionists "goyim" is a terrible Chilul Hashem and will be cursed.
That was quite an ignorant statement. You are advised to stop inciting anti-Jewish hatred amongst gentiles by suggesting to them that we are saying anything derogatory. We simply are not. "Goyim" is a word for "gentiles." Goyim means nations. ('the nations' implies, 'the nations of the world' as opposed to the Jewish nation). And YOU Cf, do not decide what G-d curses and what He doesn't. Furthermore, you are ignorant of Jewish law, and regardless, you being a gentile, I would say you have no business attempting to tell us in the Judaism section what Jewish law is about. Take a hike, pal. You have business elsewhere (in the main section). You're out of your league.
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The people who spend all of their energy defending these political prostitutes, and who curse those who disagree with them, are also just as evil. Calling Gentile Zionists "goyim" and "yoshka followers" is a terrible Chilul Hashem and will be cursed. These Satmar-like traitors to the Jewish people will burn in hell forever if they do not repent.
Huh? Goyim is the hebrew word for Nations... Why would anyone have any problem being called a nation? Everyday I call non-Jews goyim, just as I call Jews Jews... There are Jews, the holy nation, and non-Jewish nations.
I don't know what this gobbledy gook is doing in this discussion of the dangers of pork... What is it you are trying to accomplish here? You are not discussing Jewish nor Torah ideas, which is the sub-section of the forum which you are posting to.
It seems as though it was a provocation. I think you are responding appropriately, muman. I'm not sure what the intention of the provokation was, but I'm certainly not backing down.
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Huh? What are you talking about. Satmars are good Jews and I listen to many Chassidic Rabbis, some of whom are Satmar. Who are you to judge them? Now you are really getting on my nerves. You come into the Torah and Jewish ideas forum and start talking like this...
I request that you refrain from this lest I complain to some higher authorities. My patience is running out with some members here, you know who I am talking about..
What other Jews do you curse and speak evil of C.F.? I am really wondering if there is an ounce of humanity in that body of yours. Every single post I have ever read of you was always cursing or speaking ill of somebody. Why don't you do something positive one of these days?
Who here at JTF considers themselves a Shas supporter? I have never heard anyone profess this. I have heard some of the more righteous Jews say that every religious Jew should be respected, and Shas Rabbi should be respected. This is a position I support to, based on very much study of Jewish wisdom.
The quote of you that I have bolded was completely uncalled for, and I expect an apology.
You are owed nothing from muman, and his statement was warranted given your theatrics, ignorance, and Jew-bashing.
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I advise the kiddies not to make a mockery of the Judaism section and refrain from their games here.
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That was quite an ignorant statement. You are advised to stop inciting anti-Jewish hatred amongst gentiles by suggesting to them that we are saying anything derogatory. We simply are not. "Goyim" is a word for "gentiles." Goyim means nations. ('the nations' implies, 'the nations of the world' as opposed to the Jewish nation). And YOU Cf, do not decide what G-d curses and what He doesn't. Furthermore, you are ignorant of Jewish law, and regardless, you being a gentile, I would say you have no business attempting to tell us in the Judaism section what Jewish law is about. Take a hike, pal. You have business elsewhere (in the main section). You're out of your league.
If you can't take a real Gentile Zionist, go back to HaRav Teitelbaum's forum where you will not have to deal with us.
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You are owed nothing from muman, and his statement was warranted given your theatrics, ignorance, and Jew-bashing.
Last time I checked you didn't pay the hosting fees for this forum, let alone contribute a single meaningful post. Like I said, go back to Kiryas Joel if you don't like it here.
It's amusing to see fourteen-year-olds think that they can run a forum better than Chaim and Shlomo.
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You are owed nothing from muman, and his statement was warranted given your theatrics, ignorance, and Jew-bashing.
Last time I checked you didn't pay the hosting fees for this forum, let alone contribute a single meaningful post. Like I said, go back to Kiryas Joel if you don't like it here.
It's amusing to see fourteen-year-olds think that they can run a forum better than Chaim and Shlomo.
Your ignorance is astounding. I'm a grown man. I never once criticized Chaim or Shlomo or how they run the forum (although if I did have a constructive criticism I would be free to express it, and I'm sure they would consider it since they are stand-up guys and not trying to silence anyone here). My "criticism" was directed solely at you. Your behavior in this section of the forum is an embarrassment .
Are you implying that you do pay the hosting fees? And if you did, does that give you a right to behave like a child and make a mockery of this section of the forum by sabotaging the discussion and spouting ignorance? If you thought that it really gave you that freedom, I would tell you where you could shove the money, but that's up to Chaim and Shlomo, not me. It's funny how you so suddenly turn on the juvenile attack mode against me. You want meaningful posts? Here's a link, and you can scroll through them to your heart's desire. They are there for the world to see. meaningful posts found here: http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?action=profile;u=1477;sa=showPosts
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That was quite an ignorant statement. You are advised to stop inciting anti-Jewish hatred amongst gentiles by suggesting to them that we are saying anything derogatory. We simply are not. "Goyim" is a word for "gentiles." Goyim means nations. ('the nations' implies, 'the nations of the world' as opposed to the Jewish nation). And YOU Cf, do not decide what G-d curses and what He doesn't. Furthermore, you are ignorant of Jewish law, and regardless, you being a gentile, I would say you have no business attempting to tell us in the Judaism section what Jewish law is about. Take a hike, pal. You have business elsewhere (in the main section). You're out of your league.
If you can't take a real Gentile Zionist, go back to HaRav Teitelbaum's forum where you will not have to deal with us.
"Real Gentile Zionists" make antisemitic accusations against Jews in Jewish forums? Gee, that doesn't sound like a gentile zionist's behavior to me. What real gentile zionist would attempt to create a blood libel against Jews for the use of the word goyim, which is not derogatory despite your accusations and ignorance?
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C.F., we know you're no fan of Shas, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, and the Satmars.
Goyim, like KWR posted earlier, simply means non Jewish nations. There's nothing derogatory about it. And it has rarely been used here to belittle our wonderful non-Jewish members.
But getting back to Shas, R.O.Y, and the Satmars, you don't have to like them. I certainly don't agree with their positions on giving up Jewish land, and of Zionism. However, we all need to be careful about how our typed words come across. It's clearly a sensitive topic for the religious Jews here when a non-Jew (however well meaning) criticizes Satmars and R.O.Y. It would also be a sensitivie topic for the Christians if, for example, I were to put up a post saying all Baptist Christians are bad people. It would not go over well at all.
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And it has rarely been used here to belittle our wonderful non-Jewish members.
I know that. But it is often used a a slur on the splinter forums, and it is sometimes used by one or two members/former members here who are also splinter members.
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Calling Gentile Zionists "goyim" is a terrible Chilul Hashem and will be cursed.
That was quite an ignorant statement. You are advised to stop inciting anti-Jewish hatred amongst gentiles by suggesting to them that we are saying anything derogatory. We simply are not. "Goyim" is a word for "gentiles." Goyim means nations. ('the nations' implies, 'the nations of the world' as opposed to the Jewish nation). And YOU Cf, do not decide what G-d curses and what He doesn't. Furthermore, you are ignorant of Jewish law, and regardless, you being a gentile, I would say you have no business attempting to tell us in the Judaism section what Jewish law is about. Take a hike, pal. You have business elsewhere (in the main section). You're out of your league.
Of course that is the literal translation of the world and it is not meant to be a slur but you kahanebt know very well that it's used by some fools as a slur against all gentiles. It doesn't have to be a bad word of course, but it all depends on the context. We have a righteous gentile here like CF and the last thing we need to be is hostile towards him.
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Kahanebt, you happen to not bash gentiles but their is someone who routinely posts in this section who openly bashes gentile zionists both on this forum and elsewhere on the internet. That is who me and chaimfan were addressing initially.
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Kahanebt, you happen to not bash gentiles but their is someone who routinely posts in this section who openly bashes gentile zionists both on this forum and elsewhere on the internet. That is who me and chaimfan were addressing initially.
Not true. I know it is me you are trying to talk about.
I do not hate gentiles, nor do I bash gentiles the way you portray things. Saying something to "your friend" cf is not an insult to all gentiles. But as always you and cf lie and twist things people say.
Infact it is YOU who called christianity an "evil cult", and other negative things in PM. And now you again lie and act 2 faced infront of others. And even Lisa already checked the messeges and saw what you wrote. (and what you claimed that I wrote, but once again you lied)
And Lisa- what you wrote here is correct (and I do respect you), but unfortunatly I have the feeling that this cycle will continue with cf and dwi.they need to be put in their place.
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And dwi and cf- do not go around professing to be Kahanists. Their is nothing Kahanist about you. For one go read Rav Kahane's ZTL HYD books and the way he lived and conducted his life. dwi- read Rav Kahane's ZTL HYD Or'Harayon and what he writes and teached there to know what Rav Kahane taught, the way he conducted himself towards others expecially Jews.
Some people have the idea that being a wanna B thug makes one a Kahanist. It does NOT. Infact it was/is what gave Rav Kahane a bad name in what some of the people did and said while calling themselves Kahanists.
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Yeah, damn straight I was talking to you, Mr. "Mexican Nazi". Tell me one good thing you have contributed since coming here. All you ever do is slander Lubavitchim and Christians and anybody who does not worship the two rabbis that you do. I don't know of too many "Kahanists" who make posts explaining why anti-Zionism is a valid and legitimate position.
I am inclined to believe DownwithIslam's word over yours any day, considering the history of your conduct here. You are the person who defended Tina Greco over on Guzofsky's forum (or did you forget that)?
PS--don't give me this crap about "respecting" Lisa, because I remember exactly how your friend Chakma treated her, in fact, I wonder if you and he are one and the same.
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You can believe what you want or dont want, I saw the truth. And what you wrote is again lies (as usual). In your mind, repeating things that are false makes them true?
LoL you and dwi are like Russia and Germany during ww2 (before the pact ended).
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So care to explain this?
http://forum.kahane.org/index.php/topic,3187.msg19170.html#msg19170
One thing I do not understand with all of these people who complained that their pics were posted or address was posted and felt their lives were/are in danger, why did they post the pictures online to begin with? And what is the difference if they are on the Kahane forum or the JTF forum or wherever, or if they are on myspace/yourface and wherever grinko or whoever else got the information. Same goes for Chaim's old address. Yes tino is a nazi, etc. but why the big commotion I do not understand if expecialy that address appeared on all the JTF T.V. shows, where anyone in Queens with a telivision could have viewed it?
* sorry correction- it was the P.O. Box which is different, but still the people with the pictures, those who post their pics online should know that they could be seen by anyone including nazis, soo get out of all the nonsense on myspace/yourface.
Now who's the liar?
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I am inclined to believe both KWRBT and Tzvi in this case. This is not righteous in the least and it is CF and DWI who have desecrated several very interesting discussions. I have seen Tzvi contribute to the Jewish forum several times before. I have seen CF belittle, curse and desecrate everything he comes into contact with. I wish CF and DWI would leave the Torah section alone. I don't go to Xtian forums and start telling them not to believe their deity. I dont think CF could contribute an ounce of Torah wisdom and any Jewish ideas either of these two reads will be misunderstood because they don't have a yiddisha cup, nor neshama.
It is sad it has come to this. Why a simple discussion of the dangers of Pork would devolve into such slander and desecration. I don't want to explain how upset about this I am. I have tried asking nicely and I have tried talking in PM to explain things, but some people persist in spreading their negativity.
Please CF, I ask you once again, please have some respect in the Jewish section because we often discuss holy topics and we try to act as if we are in shul, to learn and to do. Regardless of your opinion of the Rav, he is a respected Torah scholar {whom a rabbi I listened to today quoted his opinion on halacha} and he should be treated as such.
PS: I am considering moving this thread to the admin section for review. Please let us let this matter rest.
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So care to explain this?
http://forum.kahane.org/index.php/topic,3187.msg19170.html#msg19170
One thing I do not understand with all of these people who complained that their pics were posted or address was posted and felt their lives were/are in danger, why did they post the pictures online to begin with? And what is the difference if they are on the Kahane forum or the JTF forum or wherever, or if they are on myspace/yourface and wherever grinko or whoever else got the information. Same goes for Chaim's old address. Yes tino is a nazi, etc. but why the big commotion I do not understand if expecialy that address appeared on all the JTF T.V. shows, where anyone in Queens with a telivision could have viewed it?
* sorry correction- it was the P.O. Box which is different, but still the people with the pictures, those who post their pics online should know that they could be seen by anyone including nazis, soo get out of all the nonsense on myspace/yourface.
Now who's the liar?
That is not defending grinko (infact in that post I said that grinko was/is a Nazi) as I said before that is telling the people not to post pics of themselves and then complain (like dwi did).
(and about those ppl who didn't post the pics of themselves (like Lisa) but other's posted their pic- I was informed after and I did address it somewhere, and I did/do have sypathy for them).
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I am inclined to believe both KWRBT and Tzvi in this case. This is not righteous in the least and it is CF and DWI who have desecrated several very interesting discussions. I have seen Tzvi contribute to the Jewish forum several times before. I have seen CF belittle, curse and desecrate everything he comes into contact with. I wish CF and DWI would leave the Torah section alone. I don't go to Xtian forums and start telling them not to believe their deity. I dont think CF could contribute an ounce of Torah wisdom and any Jewish ideas either of these two reads will be misunderstood because they don't have a yiddisha cup, nor neshama.
It is sad it has come to this. Why a simple discussion of the dangers of Pork would devolve into such slander and desecration. I don't want to explain how upset about this I am. I have tried asking nicely and I have tried talking in PM to explain things, but some people persist in spreading their negativity.
Please CF, I ask you once again, please have some respect in the Jewish section because we often discuss holy topics and we try to act as if we are in shul, to learn and to do. Regardless of your opinion of the Rav, he is a respected Torah scholar {whom a rabbi I listened to today quoted his opinion on halacha} and he should be treated as such.
PS: I am considering moving this thread to the admin section for review. Please let us let this matter rest.
Muman you are correct, and it is sad that the sitra ahra tries to sabotage Torah discussions and posts, just to show its venom towards Rabbis (and they also try to hurt me, but I only laugh at these fools. Their negative fire actually gives me more strenght to do what I gotta do).
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So care to explain this?
http://forum.kahane.org/index.php/topic,3187.msg19170.html#msg19170
One thing I do not understand with all of these people who complained that their pics were posted or address was posted and felt their lives were/are in danger, why did they post the pictures online to begin with? And what is the difference if they are on the Kahane forum or the JTF forum or wherever, or if they are on myspace/yourface and wherever grinko or whoever else got the information. Same goes for Chaim's old address. Yes tino is a nazi, etc. but why the big commotion I do not understand if expecialy that address appeared on all the JTF T.V. shows, where anyone in Queens with a telivision could have viewed it?
* sorry correction- it was the P.O. Box which is different, but still the people with the pictures, those who post their pics online should know that they could be seen by anyone including nazis, soo get out of all the nonsense on myspace/yourface.
Now who's the liar?
That is not defending grinko (infact in that post I said that grinko was/is a Nazi) as I said before that is telling the people not to post pics of themselves and then complain (like dwi did).
(and about those ppl who didn't post the pics of themselves (like Lisa) but other's posted their pic- I was informed after and I did address it somewhere, and I did/do have sypathy for them).
Heck, I used my pic as my avatar for almost five months and nobody has ever come after me. Maybe I am lucky but I thank Hashem for his protection.
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Guys, we're all adults here. So can we please stop this arguing?
C.F. and DownwithIslam, I know what you think of the Satmars and R.O.Y. Again, you don't have to like them. But please try and be sensitive to the feelings of the other Jews here. I don't want to have to lock this thread.