JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: DownwithIslam on February 08, 2009, 08:27:32 PM
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Ovadia Yosef has said recently that all the Russian immigrants do is sell pork and go to church when they come to Israel. It is obvious that he hates the russian jews passionately. He had to be talking about Russian JEWS because he was speaking about Avigdor Liebermans main constituency. It's incredible how low this beast will go.
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1062611.html
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First, show some respect for our great Torah sage.
Secondly, he is talking about Russian goyim. Not Russian Jews. I can't imagine any religious person supporting Lieberman.
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What are you talking about. He is clearly attacking Avigdor Liebermans core constituency which is Russian Jews. Don't try to play semantic games. I know you are from the splinter forum so go back there in a hurry.
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Can someone ban Nadav already? I am not sure we need this criminal infesting our forum any longer.
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What are you talking about. He is clearly attacking Avigdor Liebermans core constituency which is Russian Jews. Don't try to play semantic games. I know you are from the splinter forum so go back there in a hurry.
His core is Russian gentiles you fool. Not Russian Jews.
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I dont believe that Rav is slandering Russian Jews. I am a Ukrainian Jew and I believe that the Rav is addressing those Russions who go to Israel who are not really Jewish. These beasts usually turn out to be antisemitic pieces of drek and they even join Neo-Nazi groups in Israel. I really think that Israel should pay more attention to making sure that the immigrants from Russia are really Jewish.
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Good post Muman.
DWI, are you Jewish? If so...
Positive Mitzvah 209: Respecting the Sages and the Elderly
Leviticus 19:32 "You shall stand up before an elderly person and give respect to a sage"
A learned sage and an elderly person have gained much knowledge through their studies and life experience. It is appropriate to respect these achievements.
We are commanded to honor the sages and the elderly.
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Nadav, why do you discuss in this style?
If you talk down this way to people, even if you are right, you should exspect that your opponent in discussion will not listen to you.
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Nadav, why do you discuss in this style?
If you talk down this way to people, even if you are right, you should exspect that your opponent in discussion will not listen to you.
With all due respect, I'm not here be lectured. I know how to debate with people. Look at my first reply to the thread and then read what DWI said in response. I'm only hostile to people who are hostile to me. The disrespect of a great Torah sage will not go unnoticed.
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Ovadia Yosef has said recently that all the Russian immigrants do is sell pork and go to church when they come to Israel. It is obvious that he hates the russian jews passionately. He had to be talking about Russian JEWS because he was speaking about Avigdor Liebermans main constituency. It's incredible how low this beast will go.
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1062611.html
Your slander is a disgrace to this board.
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What are you talking about. He is clearly attacking Avigdor Liebermans core constituency which is Russian Jews. Don't try to play semantic games. I know you are from the splinter forum so go back there in a hurry.
It's not semantics if it's true. Your imaginations about Rav Yosef's feelings toward Russian Jews, such as when you criticize him of hating them, are best kept to yourself. Apparently you find it convenient to side with haaretz of all people, when it comes to slandering a great Rav.
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KWR, regardless of what Rabbi Yosef meant here (Russian Jews or Gentiles), I don't believe that he is in a place to be making attacks. Selling pork in Israel is bad, but coming up with theological justifications for surrendering Jewish land to human pigs is much worse.
I would like Rabbi Yosef to apologize for the following decisions that have caused great loss of life and safety in the Holy Land:
--supporting Oslo
--supporting the evacuation of Gush Katif and virtually every other withdrawal that has happened
--continuing to believe that surrendering Jewish land is worth it if it will "spare life"
--calling Arabs the brothers of Jews
--calling Shimon Peres a great friend of Torah Judaism
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Selling pork in Israel is bad, but coming up with theological justifications for surrendering Jewish land to human pigs is much worse.
I agree 100%. But that gives no one the right to slander a Torah sage or attribute to him positions that have no basis in reality. The fact that he made a bad decision in the past opens him up to criticism of that bad decision. It does not "classify" him as persona non grata or 'evil' chas ve shalom, and does not open up the opportunity for one to slander or ridicule or disrespect him. If a great rabbi makes a decision that one disagrees with and finds fault with, it does not give a person a blank check to then behave in an evil manner and lose all restraint to speak evil against the rabbi in all ways, personal and in general. There's no heter for that. And a Jew especially should know better. And even if one does not know better, or simply does not abide by obligations of Jewish law, I still find it offensive to make false accusations about any person that are without basis or supporting evidence other than conjecture.
--supporting the evacuation of Gush Katif and virtually every other withdrawal that has happened
From what I understand, his party, Shas, voted against the expulsion when it came up to vote in the Knesset.
--calling Arabs the brothers of Jews
Source? I have seen him call Arabs snakes and/or dogs, but have yet to see him call them brothers...
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Ovadia Yosef has said recently that all the Russian immigrants do is sell pork and go to church when they come to Israel. It is obvious that he hates the russian jews passionately. He had to be talking about Russian JEWS because he was speaking about Avigdor Liebermans main constituency. It's incredible how low this beast will go.
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1062611.html
Your slander is a disgrace to this board.
What is slander to you is an informative post to me.
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I didn't slander Rabbi Yosef. I said the truth, which is that he is a religious leftist. He tries to use the Torah to justify left-wing positions. I'm not responsible for what anybody else might say. Two years ago, I did cross the line regarding him, but Chaim set me straight. I detest many of the decisions he has made, and think they have been partly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews, but have not made any personal insults against him. I believe ROY should seek forgiveness for these decisions and policies, which were horribly sinful.
As for the Arabs being brothers comment, I think that dated to the time of Oslo.
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Good post Muman.
DWI, are you Jewish? If so...
Positive Mitzvah 209: Respecting the Sages and the Elderly
Leviticus 19:32 "You shall stand up before an elderly person and give respect to a sage"
A learned sage and an elderly person have gained much knowledge through their studies and life experience. It is appropriate to respect these achievements.
We are commanded to honor the sages and the elderly.
What makes him a sage? It's clear that his land for peace missions and his support of evil regimes has led to loads of jewish deaths. If someone kills one jew, it's like killing the world. This man deserves no honor. If you want to honor him, go ahead. Please don't impose those demands on me.
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What about the fact that "Rabbi" Ovadia Yosef, through the shas interior minister who was his puppet, actually signed the bloody decree banning Chaim from Israel?
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Don't forget that Shas wasn't against banning HaRav Kahane either.
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Don't forget that Shas wasn't against banning HaRav Kahane either.
Wow, so Shas supported Oslo but they didn't support Chaim ben pesachs entry into Israel? How shocking!!!!
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I think Shas is jealous of Chaim and the amount of religious support he would turn to himself.
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Ovadia Yosef has said recently that all the Russian immigrants do is sell pork and go to church when they come to Israel. It is obvious that he hates the russian jews passionately. He had to be talking about Russian JEWS because he was speaking about Avigdor Liebermans main constituency. It's incredible how low this beast will go.
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1062611.html
Your slander is a disgrace to this board.
What is slander to you is an informative post to me.
Halacha is not defined by your opinion.
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I agree with KWBT on this... But I know that the majority of you are cursing and condemning Torah scholars. This is something I condemned about Ynet news because they always enjoy demeaning Torah scholars. I dont think anyone commenting on this thread has as much knowledge of Torah as Rabbi Yosef and as a result I think we should honor that.
We dont have to agree with his politics, and I think Rabbis really should stay out of politics if at all possible. I believe that Rabbi Yosef made some rulings without proper understanding of the situation. Politics has the nature of perverting doing the right thing. I think we should be able to disagree without invoking disrespect.
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Ovadia Yosef has said recently that all the Russian immigrants do is sell pork and go to church when they come to Israel. It is obvious that he hates the russian jews passionately. He had to be talking about Russian JEWS because he was speaking about Avigdor Liebermans main constituency. It's incredible how low this beast will go.
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1062611.html
Your slander is a disgrace to this board.
What is slander to you is an informative post to me.
Halacha is not defined by your opinion.
Ok so what does halacha say about someone who 1) had his party sit in the govt while they were perpetrating a pogrom in Amona 2) destroying the peace house and Noam Federmans house 3) support Oslo 4) signed the decree banning chaim from israel? It is clear that these stupid putz ideas have led to jewish deaths. I wonder what halacha says about a person like this. Don't let his shtecken, shayna hoyzin and dark sunglasses fool you.
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Muman, the fact that he is a learned Torah Scholar is precisely what makes Rabbi Yosef's activities so harmful. He has a lot more weight behind his positions than secular Israeli leftists, and therefore many more Jews will listen to him.
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Muman, the fact that he is a learned Torah Scholar is precisely what makes Rabbi Yosef's activities so harmful. He has a lot more weight behind his positions than secular Israeli leftists, and therefore many more Jews will listen to him.
C.F.,
We are able to learn and grow and change our understanding. I believe that the Rav has said that he now understands better that peace will not be brought about by giving the enemies land. I think we all now believe that. I must admit that several years ago I was naive too and I thought that peace was possible. But I was on the fence and I feel that giving Gaza was a big mistake, as was evacuating Gush Katif and other Jewish settlements. I have changed my position and now I understand better.
I dont think that Rabbis should be involved in politics at this time. Israel politics seems so alien to me that it scares me.
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Muman, you yourself posted links showing that he has not truly abandoned supporting land-for-peace. It is true that he has apologized for supporting Oslo and the Gaza "disengagement", but to this day he still supports land-for-peace theoretically, if he could really, really be convinced that it will lead to true peace in that specific case.
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Muman, the fact that he is a learned Torah Scholar is precisely what makes Rabbi Yosef's activities so harmful. He has a lot more weight behind his positions than secular Israeli leftists, and therefore many more Jews will listen to him.
C.F.,
We are able to learn and grow and change our understanding. I believe that the Rav has said that he now understands better that peace will not be brought about by giving the enemies land. I think we all now believe that. I must admit that several years ago I was naive too and I thought that peace was possible. But I was on the fence and I feel that giving Gaza was a big mistake, as was evacuating Gush Katif and other Jewish settlements. I have changed my position and now I understand better.
I dont think that Rabbis should be involved in politics at this time. Israel politics seems so alien to me that it scares me.
But Muman, ROY had not learned from his mistakes. Literally weeks ago, he gave a hechsher to the destruction of both the peace house and noam federmans house by staying in the govt.
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Muman, you yourself posted links showing that he has not truly abandoned supporting land-for-peace. It is true that he has apologized for supporting Oslo and the Gaza "disengagement", but to this day he still supports land-for-peace theoretically, if he could really, really be convinced that it will lead to true peace in that specific case.
Yes, and the reason for that belief is based on his understanding of Torah which says that saving Jewish lives over-rides other obligations. So that if it would be true that by giving land to the enemies that it would save Jewish lives it would make sense to give the land. I understand this from a Torah perspective, because even though they could have the land now, in the future we can get it back. If we lose Jewish lives we cannot get them back.
This belief doesnt make him evil. As long as he understands that the basic premise of expecting peace for land is basically flawed he will live with this reality. I am not an expert on what he believes but I have trust that he believes that the answers are to be found in the Torah.
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Muman, the fact that he is a learned Torah Scholar is precisely what makes Rabbi Yosef's activities so harmful. He has a lot more weight behind his positions than secular Israeli leftists, and therefore many more Jews will listen to him.
C.F.,
We are able to learn and grow and change our understanding. I believe that the Rav has said that he now understands better that peace will not be brought about by giving the enemies land. I think we all now believe that. I must admit that several years ago I was naive too and I thought that peace was possible. But I was on the fence and I feel that giving Gaza was a big mistake, as was evacuating Gush Katif and other Jewish settlements. I have changed my position and now I understand better.
I dont think that Rabbis should be involved in politics at this time. Israel politics seems so alien to me that it scares me.
But Muman, ROY had not learned from his mistakes. Literally weeks ago, he gave a hechsher to the destruction of both the peace house and noam federmans house by staying in the govt.
I dont really understand how Israel politics works. I have heard that there are many parties and no religious party has any majority. So even if he wanted to prevent the destruction of the Federman home would he have been able to? You suggest that he would leave the government? Would that accomplish very much? I dont know...
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Muman, the fact that he is a learned Torah Scholar is precisely what makes Rabbi Yosef's activities so harmful. He has a lot more weight behind his positions than secular Israeli leftists, and therefore many more Jews will listen to him.
C.F.,
We are able to learn and grow and change our understanding. I believe that the Rav has said that he now understands better that peace will not be brought about by giving the enemies land. I think we all now believe that. I must admit that several years ago I was naive too and I thought that peace was possible. But I was on the fence and I feel that giving Gaza was a big mistake, as was evacuating Gush Katif and other Jewish settlements. I have changed my position and now I understand better.
I dont think that Rabbis should be involved in politics at this time. Israel politics seems so alien to me that it scares me.
But Muman, ROY had not learned from his mistakes. Literally weeks ago, he gave a hechsher to the destruction of both the peace house and noam federmans house by staying in the govt.
I dont really understand how Israel politics works. I have heard that there are many parties and no religious party has any majority. So even if he wanted to prevent the destruction of the Federman home would he have been able to? You suggest that he would leave the government? Would that accomplish very much? I dont know...
Muman, shas was the key to the coalition. The govt would of fallen the second shas pulled out. This is why I say that ROY is responsible for everything smolmert, livni and barak did.
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Muman, you yourself posted links showing that he has not truly abandoned supporting land-for-peace. It is true that he has apologized for supporting Oslo and the Gaza "disengagement", but to this day he still supports land-for-peace theoretically, if he could really, really be convinced that it will lead to true peace in that specific case.
Yes, and the reason for that belief is based on his understanding of Torah which says that saving Jewish lives over-rides other obligations. So that if it would be true that by giving land to the enemies that it would save Jewish lives it would make sense to give the land. I understand this from a Torah perspective, because even though they could have the land now, in the future we can get it back. If we lose Jewish lives we cannot get them back.
This belief doesnt make him evil. As long as he understands that the basic premise of expecting peace for land is basically flawed he will live with this reality. I am not an expert on what he believes but I have trust that he believes that the answers are to be found in the Torah.
And there are "Christian" theologians who have genuinely believed that the New Testament teaches Jew-hatred and pogroms. Because of this, millions of Jews have been savagely martyred throughout history. The sincerity of belief is not what is in question, it is the outcome of that belief. Both the beliefs of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and Christian anti-Semites have led to innumerable Jewish deaths. Yes, granted the latter have caused far more deaths, but despite the scale, the results have been similar.
And even if ROY genuinely does believe that anything to save Jewish life is worth it (although land-for-peace has only ever COST Jewish lives), how does that explain him once saying that Arabs are "our brothers" and friends?
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Believe me, if I was involved in the Smolmert government I would get out as soon as possible. That rat-pack is destined for memory erasure. But I will hold off my condemnation of the Rabbi. As I said previously, politics stains everyone who involves themselves. I believe that the Rabbi has a stain on his reputation and it will be difficult to rectify it.
I grant everyone that the Rabbis decisions in hindsight were very poor. I wish he would pull Shas out of the government because it seems that the way Kadima is headed is toward catastrophe.
Let us let this topic go for a rest. I will lock it also so that we don't bicker over it more than we have.
Thank you,
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Shas never apologized for the crime they committed against the Jewish people by enabling the Oslo accords to be imposed upon Israel.
The belief that you can surrender Jewish land to save lives is absurd, and is rejected by the vast majority of Israel's rabbis. If saving lives is the priority, then we can never wage war. Because in a war, lives will be lost. Yet we believe in the Torah concept of milchemet mitzvah (an obligatory war). How can we have milchemet mitzvah if saving lives is the number one priority?
With all due respect, HaRav Ovadia's decisions have indeed caused the deaths of countless innocent Jews. And his party, Shas, is the most corrupt party in Israel.
I am happy to see that HaRav Ovadia doesn't want people in Israel who sell pork. Which doesn't mean that Shas is not responsible for aliyah: Shas was directly responsible for the aliyah to Israel of the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat and 80,000 Muslim terrorists as part of Oslo.
In the last election, Aryeh Deri, the founder of Shas whom HaRav Ovadia has praised as a "saint", urged people to vote for the radical leftwing Kadima party and served as a special election advisor to Ehud Smolmert. Deri was convicted of bribery, kickbacks and gross corruption, and served four years in prison. But HaRav Ovadia insisted that Deri is innocent.
BTW, I know Shas leaders and I believe that they genuinely dislike Ashkenazi Jews in general and Russian Jews in particuliar. Shas subtly appeals to anti-Ashkenazi and anti-Russian prejudice in their campaigns.
But at least Shas did one good thing: they expelled a Jew named Chaim Ben Pesach from Israel. We wouldn't want this Kahanist troublemaker preaching love of all Jews, including Ashkenazim and Russians, to Mizrachi youth. We wouldn't want this troublemaker telling Mizrachi youth that we are not allowed to surrender sacred Jewish land under any circumstances (most Mizrachi youth are also against giving up land, so this issue could be a problem for Shas). Most of all, we wouldn't want this troublemaker to remind Mizrachi youth that Shas has been proven wrong on every issue, while the Kahanists have been proven right.
Despite all that is written above, we should not disrespect Torah scholars like HaRav Ovadia. But when other Torah scholars disagree with HaRav Ovadia's radical left positions, we have a right to be respectfully critical.