JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: White Israelite on March 24, 2009, 09:33:29 PM
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Using a new type of brain imaging, researchers have shown that intelligence is strongly influenced by the quality of axon myelination, a genetic trait. It looks like more bad news for the "everyone is created equal" crowd.
ScienceDaily (Mar. 18, 2009) — They say a picture tells a thousand stories, but can it also tell how smart you are? Actually, say UCLA researchers, it can.
(http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2009/03/090317142841-large.jpg)
In a study published recently in the Journal of Neuroscience, UCLA neurology professor Paul Thompson and colleagues used a new type of brain-imaging scanner to show that intelligence is strongly influenced by the quality of the brain's axons, or wiring that sends signals throughout the brain. The faster the signaling, the faster the brain processes information. And since the integrity of the brain's wiring is influenced by genes, the genes we inherit play a far greater role in intelligence than was previously thought.
Genes appear to influence intelligence by determining how well nerve axons are encased in myelin — the fatty sheath of "insulation" that coats our axons and allows for fast signaling bursts in our brains. The thicker the myelin, the faster the nerve impulses.
Thompson and his colleagues scanned the brains of 23 sets of identical twins and 23 sets of fraternal twins. Since identical twins share the same genes while fraternal twins share about half their genes, the researchers were able to compare each group to show that myelin integrity was determined genetically in many parts of the brain that are key for intelligence. These include the parietal lobes, which are responsible for spatial reasoning, visual processing and logic, and the corpus callosum, which pulls together information from both sides of the body.
The researchers used a faster version of a type of scanner called a HARDI (high-angular resolution diffusion imaging) — think of an MRI machine on steroids — that takes scans of the brain at a much higher resolution than a standard MRI. While an MRI scan shows the volume of different tissues in the brain by measuring the amount of water present, HARDI tracks how water diffuses through the brain's white matter — a way to measure the quality of its myelin.
"HARDI measures water diffusion," said Thompson, who is also a member of the UCLA Laboratory of Neuro-Imaging. "If the water diffuses rapidly in a specific direction, it tells us that the brain has very fast connections. If it diffuses more broadly, that's an indication of slower signaling, and lower intelligence."
"So it gives us a picture of one's mental speed," he said.
Because the myelination of brain circuits follows an inverted U-shaped trajectory, peaking in middle age and then slowly beginning to decline, Thompson believes identifying the genes that promote high-integrity myelin is critical to forestalling brain diseases like multiple sclerosis and autism, which have been linked to the breakdown of myelin.
"The whole point of this research," Thompson said, "is to give us insight into brain diseases."
He said his team has already narrowed down the number of gene candidates that may influence myelin growth.
And could this someday lead to a therapy that could make us smarter, enhancing our intelligence?
"It's a long way off but within the realm of the possible," Thompson said.
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I think these studies can be very dangerous. Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics? It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons. No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination. Just my opinion though.
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I think these studies can be very dangerous. Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics? It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons. No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination. Just my opinion though.
I agree...
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I couldn't disagree more with muman613 and SavetheWest (how inaptly you are named). Jews test notably higher than every other racial, ethnic or religious group and yet they, as a group, seem utterly ashamed of their superior status. What's wrong with the truth! If you say that every organ in the body can have measured differences, from eye and skin color to height, weight and speed group differences but then claim that the brain is the only organ in humans which is equal in all individuals and groups, you are promoting lies.
Jews tend to be obsessed with what the Nazis did to us in the past and this partly explains why they are generally leftists who push the equality agenda. Equality of opportunity is not a bad idea but equality of ability is a lie. Yes, the Nazis used lies about Jewish inferiority as an excuse to push their program to exterminate us. This doesn't mean that because one group actually does possess superior cognitive skills, it should seek to punish others. It just doesn't follow.
SavetheWest, if you are really interested in saving the West, you should educate yourself about the changes which are slowly destroying the West. Yes, the West is badly in need of saving. Here is the civilization which brought mankind every form of modern transportation and communication. It has brought us modern medicine and limited constitutional forms of government. If the truth be told, every invention and scientific advance worth mentioning in the past millennium occurred in the West. And yet, we in the West are presently hellbent on self-destruction.
It is this idea, this lie, of equal ability which is destroying us from within. Jews possess a mean IQ of up to 115, the Europeans is 100. But they are systematically displacing themselves with low IQ Third-Worlders and Muslims who have neither the inclination nor the ability to assimilate. Fertility rates among whites is far below replacement levels worldwide and they are allowing a steady stream of non-white immigrants who tend to have four to eight children per family. The prognosis is not good. Demography is destiny.
No one at JTF is advocating a Nazi Holocaust but that does not mean that it isn't high time that we begin re-thinking our immigration policies in white countries. Just as we advocate that Israel should be a predominantly Jewish country, it is consistent to want white countries to remain predominantly white. In the decade I was born here in NYC, the population was 93% white. Now, according to the latest census, our population is under 35% white. The change is occurring so gradually that no one seems to notice. So, SavetheWest, in 35 years, when you may be the last white left, would you please shut the lights before you leave.
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I couldn't disagree more with muman613 and SavetheWest (how inaptly you are named). Jews test notably higher than every other racial, ethnic or religious group and yet they, as a group, seem utterly ashamed of their superior status. What's wrong with the truth! If you say that every organ in the body can have measured differences, from eye and skin color to height, weight and speed group differences but then claim that the brain is the only organ in humans which is equal in all individuals and groups, you are promoting lies.
Jews tend to be obsessed with what the Nazis did to us in the past and this partly explains why they are generally leftists who push the equality agenda. Equality of opportunity is not a bad idea but equality of ability is a lie. Yes, the Nazis used lies about Jewish inferiority as an excuse to push their program to exterminate us. This doesn't mean that because one group actually does possess superior cognitive skills, it should seek to punish others. It just doesn't follow.
SavetheWest, if you are really interested in saving the West, you should educate yourself about the changes which are slowly destroying the West. Yes, the West is badly in need of saving. Here is the civilization which brought mankind every form of modern transportation and communication. It has brought us modern medicine and limited constitutional forms of government. If the truth be told, every invention and scientific advance worth mentioning in the past millennium occurred in the West. And yet, we in the West are presently hellbent on self-destruction.
It is this idea, this lie, of equal ability which is destroying us from within. Jews possess a mean IQ of up to 115, the Europeans is 100. But they are systematically displacing themselves with low IQ Third-Worlders and Muslims who have neither the inclination nor the ability to assimilate. Fertility rates among whites is far below replacement levels worldwide and they are allowing a steady stream of non-white immigrants who tend to have four to eight children per family. The prognosis is not good. Demography is destiny.
No one at JTF is advocating a Nazi Holocaust but that does not mean that it isn't high time that we begin re-thinking our immigration policies in white countries. Just as we advocate that Israel should be a predominantly Jewish country, it is consistent to want white countries to remain predominantly white. In the decade I was born here in NYC, the population was 93% white. Now, according to the latest census, our population is under 35% white. The change is occurring so gradually that no one seems to notice. So, SavetheWest, in 35 years, when you may be the last white left, would you please shut the lights before you leave.
Excellent post. As someone I knew once said, you should derive Morality from Genetics, not the other way around.
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Obviously people who are only concerned about one aspect of life are loosing out on the full experience of life. I know people who are all over the spectrum of intelligence. I dont only make friends with people who are of my intelligence level. It is wrong to only judge people based on one aspect, such as intelligence. Intelligence alone is not an admirable quality. As I have pointed out before, some of the smartest people have been brutal and immoral. There is no rule that those who are intelligent are immediately moral, is there?
Life is composed of much more than intelligence. Everything which Hashem created is here for a purpose, including dumb people. A wise person learns from everything around him. There is nothing gained by being arrogant and judgmental against those who don't share our traits. It is folly to believe that our intelligence is so great that we are superior to others. The fact is that the more you know, the less you really know.
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Time for dr dans logic: take what you want from this artical. One cannot judge someone solely on their genetics.
If there were genes for intelligence it only might mean that person has the POTENTIAL to be a fast learner. The way one learns is if he is tought something. One is taught something by his teachers or environment and culture which he comes from. Therefore no judgement should be made w someone with an "inferior" intellegence gene because he can learn the same things. But will take longer in the same environment. Muman is right in what he says also
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I'm inclined to agree with much of MikeyChua's post. However, I also understand where Muman and Savethewest are coming from.
It's one thing to acknowledge differences between racial groups. Whether it's genetic or whether it's about people freely choosing to engage in evil behavior, as Chaim believes, the differences are there. I've met Mikey, he's a religious Jew, and a bright person who's a big fan of JTF. The only disagreement he has with us is the belief that the evil behavior of Third World groups is due to IQ rather than the conscious desire to do evil.
So whether it's all about IQ, or simply the free choice to engage in evil behavior, we need to look at the bigger picture.
Acknowledging the differences is one thing. However the important thing is what we decide to do with that knowledge.
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Based upon identical twins separated at birth... IQ is mostly genetic. (I think there was a 2 point standard deviation)
HOWEVER.... being extremely malnutritioned... or growing up without being mentally challenged CAN hurt your intelligence. This is PARTIALLY (Not mostly) why you see Sub-Saharan African nations with such unbelievably low IQ's.
So maybe 80% nature, 20% nurture.
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Obviously people who are only concerned about one aspect of life are loosing out on the full experience of life. I know people who are all over the spectrum of intelligence. I dont only make friends with people who are of my intelligence level. It is wrong to only judge people based on one aspect, such as intelligence. Intelligence alone is not an admirable quality. As I have pointed out before, some of the smartest people have been brutal and immoral. There is no rule that those who are intelligent are immediately moral, is there?
Life is composed of much more than intelligence. Everything which Hashem created is here for a purpose, including dumb people. A wise person learns from everything around him. There is nothing gained by being arrogant and judgmental against those who don't share our traits. It is folly to believe that our intelligence is so great that we are superior to others. The fact is that the more you know, the less you really know.
PS: If Jews are so smart how come a majority of them voted for Hussein?
I will concede that there is a difference between being smart and being wise. The problem is that you are prepared to ignore all statistical evidence regarding intelligence. The fact is that intelligence is positively correlated to every aspect of social success, from financial to academic to lasting marriage. Likewise, intelligence is negatively correlated to every form of anti-social behavior, from criminality to illegitimacy to unemployment and welfare dependency. If you are so fond of low IQ Third-Worlders, perhaps you should try moving to one of their countries to further enjoy their culture. I would suggest Saudi Arabia but they have a smarter immigration policy. These Third-Worlders have never built successful societies of their own and they have nothing to contribute to ours. They are streaming into our countries and we are not moving to theirs for good reason. If you want to bring religion into this discussion, may I suggest a careful reading of the Tower of Babel to find out what Hashem intended.
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Interestingly enough there is an article on Torah.org about this study... I will post it below:
http://www.torah.org/features/nextgen/intelligence.html
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Not Letting Intelligence Go To Our Heads
by Rabbi Avi Shafran
More than a few Jewish mouths curled into smiles at the recent news out of the University of Utah. Researchers there suggested that natural selection may have resulted in enhanced intellectual ability among Jews of Ashkenazic, or eastern European, background.
The theory was proposed in a paper published in Cambridge University's Journal of Biosocial Science that sought to better understand the prevalence of certain genetic disease among Ashkenazic Jews. It is accepted science that unfortunate genetic heritages, like the disproportionate occurrence of certain diseases, can reflect beneficial genetic legacies --in other words, that genes coding for such diseases may have persevered in the gene pool precisely because they code as well for some advantageous characteristic. Sickle-cell anemia, for instance, a hereditary disease markedly common among people of African ancestry, has long been linked to a gene that confers protection from malaria.
Might there be some hidden benefit, the researchers asked themselves, some fortunate "flip side," to the propensity for hereditary diseases like Tay-Sachs and Gaucher that are uncommonly common among Ashkenazic Jews? It turns out that those diseases (and two others disproportionately afflicting Ashkenazic Jews) affect cells' management of chemicals known as sphingolipids. And there is apparently some evidence that sphingolipid disorders promote the growth and interconnection of brain cells.
The Utah researchers posited that the roots of a connection between sphingolipid disorders and intelligence might lie in the fact that Jews were relentlessly persecuted in Europe for nearly a thousand years. Barred over those centuries from professions like farming and crafts, they were forced into managerial and commercial professions, which required more brain than brawn. Thus, the scientists hypothesized, those who survived long enough to leave more offspring (and to provide them their genetic legacy) were, increasingly, those of more formidable intellect.
The researchers might also have considered the fact that Jews have traditionally valued Torah-scholarship and, therefore, scholars -- who, too, may have lived longer as a result, and had more children to whom to pass their genes.
The entire theory, of course, is speculative. Although Harvard University cognitive scientist Steven Pinker called the paper "thorough and well-argued, not one that can easily be dismissed outright," others were less impressed. Dr. Andrew Clark, a population geneticist at Cornell University referred to the argument that sphingolipid disorders are associated with intelligence as "far-fetched." What is more, the theory does not address the formidable abilities of non-European Jews, like those whose roots lie in the Iberian Peninsula, North Africa or Arab lands, whose intellects and acumen are likewise well documented over history and readily apparent in the contemporary world.
Its veracity aside, though, the study's speculation is dangerous. Not because, as Professor Pinker put it, "It would be hard to overstate how politically incorrect this paper is." And not because it might give anti-Semites grist for their rants about Jews being "different" and, of course, plotting to take over the world. No, its danger lies in its potential to lead us Jews ourselves astray, by enticing us to view intellect as inherently important.
That Jews value intelligence is a truism, to be sure. Those of us who remain faithful to the Jewish religious tradition pray for wisdom, and consider the intellectually demanding study of Torah a high and holy calling. And even Jews who turn to other disciplines, more often than not, seek to exercise their gray matter rather than their biceps.
But neither logical thought nor creativity is what ultimately matters, at least from a truly Jewish perspective. Our religious tradition, to be sure, teaches us Jews that we have been chosen by G-d -- but we cannot know why, only what for: to serve Him.
The Torah does refer to the Jewish people as "a wise nation" but also as a stubborn one, and, at times, worse. Jewish tradition considers the Jews' ultimate saving grace to be its Biblical forebears' dedication to G-d. Similarly, the sages of the Talmud did not generally stress inherent abilities -- mental or otherwise -- but rather the choice to utilize whatever blessings we have. Their honorifics customarily ran not to words like "genius" or "brilliant" but to ones like "righteous" and "G-d fearing."
Brights are certainly useful, and even can even be meaningful, at least in a practical sort of way. So, though, can a host of other human traits, like artistic aptitude or musical talent. Anything -- even physical prowess, beauty or wealth -- can be turned to good use. It is, however, only their usefulness that makes them truly valuable. No inherent worth inheres in them; their value is in their potential, in their ability to be recruited for a higher purpose.
Modern society's world-view, of course, leaves precious little room for the idea of living to serve the Divine. Possessions -- both the materialistic and the less tangible sorts alike -- may be what the wider world celebrates. But that doesn't change the Jewish equation.
And so the recent study should not cause us Jews to smile. It should, rather, make us furrow our brows, in thoughtful consideration of the true import of intelligence.
It should impel us to teach our children, whether they are grappling with school, marriage or children of their own, that it isn't genius that most matters but generosity; not the clever who deserve praise but the conscientious. Let us teach them, in other words, to not let intelligence go to their heads, when only goodness, in the end, is important.
And let us internalize that truth, no less, ourselves.
Rabbi Shafran is director of public affairs for Agudath Israel of America
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I'm inclined to agree with much of MikeyChua's post. However, I also understand where Muman and Savethewest are coming from.
It's one thing to acknowledge differences between racial groups. Whether it's genetic or whether it's about people freely choosing to engage in evil behavior, as Chaim believes, the differences are there. I've met Mikey, he's a religious Jew, and a bright person who's a big fan of JTF. The only disagreement he has with us is the belief that the evil behavior of Third World groups is due to IQ rather than the conscious desire to do evil.
So whether it's all about IQ, or simply the free choice to engage in evil behavior, we need to look at the bigger picture.
Acknowledging the differences is one thing. However the important thing is what we decide to do with that knowledge.
It saddens me that you would put words in my mouth and attribute to me ideas that I do not advocate. Of course, there is such a thing as free will. This free will, as my rabbi correctly asserts, determines whether or not we choose to perform mitzvas. We all make a conscious decision when we choose to do righteous or sinful acts. We do not, however, get to choose how tall we are, what color our eyes are, and yes, how smart we are. Sorry, but I will never be an Einstein no matter how hard I try.
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Of course I don't deny the findings of the study. I do believe that intelligence is genetic. Everyone in my family has been professionals and some have written books. But I am also happy to live in a world where there are people different that me.
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This is only half the story. What matters isn't just intelligence, but work ethic. Black culture values laziness and stupidity, so even the smart blacks act like gutter schvartzes. On the other hand, there are plenty of whites, Jews, and Asians of average intellect who get straight As simply because they work their rumps off.
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Mikey, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Maybe I missed something, but you see to be a strong believer in IQ, and how people with low IQ's engage in stupid, criminal and self-destructive behaviors. I was only trying to point out what we all agree on here at JTF.
So whereas you might attribute the high rate of black high school dropouts, illegitimacy, and criminality to low IQ, Chaim and others, who agree with you on the high drop out, illegitimacy and criminality rate of blacks, attribute it to the conscious desire to choose evil, due to laziness and resentment of whites.
Mikey, no one here will disagree with you that blacks and other Third World minorities commit the vast amount of crimes, and have the highest rate of illegitimacy, etc. We are adamantly against Third World immigrations to Western countries. We're all in agreement that America CANNOT lose her white majority.
The only difference of opinion here with other members is whether it's ALL about IQ and genetics.
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I'm inclined to agree with much of MikeyChua's post. However, I also understand where Muman and Savethewest are coming from.
It's one thing to acknowledge differences between racial groups. Whether it's genetic or whether it's about people freely choosing to engage in evil behavior, as Chaim believes, the differences are there. I've met Mikey, he's a religious Jew, and a bright person who's a big fan of JTF. The only disagreement he has with us is the belief that the evil behavior of Third World groups is due to IQ rather than the conscious desire to do evil.
So whether it's all about IQ, or simply the free choice to engage in evil behavior, we need to look at the bigger picture.
Acknowledging the differences is one thing. However the important thing is what we decide to do with that knowledge.
Smart people of evil behavior can do a lot of harm. Smartness does not mean superior..it's how one uses it. I still maintain that this movment is about righteous and evil behavior and righteous and evil cultures. Since human beings have free will, they are capable of choosing right from wrong (assuming they aren't ignorant.)
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I'm inclined to agree with much of MikeyChua's post. However, I also understand where Muman and Savethewest are coming from.
It's one thing to acknowledge differences between racial groups. Whether it's genetic or whether it's about people freely choosing to engage in evil behavior, as Chaim believes, the differences are there. I've met Mikey, he's a religious Jew, and a bright person who's a big fan of JTF. The only disagreement he has with us is the belief that the evil behavior of Third World groups is due to IQ rather than the conscious desire to do evil.
So whether it's all about IQ, or simply the free choice to engage in evil behavior, we need to look at the bigger picture.
Acknowledging the differences is one thing. However the important thing is what we decide to do with that knowledge.
Smart people of evil behavior can do a lot of harm. Smartness does not mean superior..it's how one uses it. I still maintain that this movment is about righteous and evil behavior and righteous and evil cultures. Since human beings have free will, they are capable of choosing right from wrong (assuming they aren't ignorant.)
But it's factual that the people of Africa have a lower IQ than the rest of the world, and look at the evil behavior they are engaged in daily?
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I couldn't disagree more with muman613 and SavetheWest (how inaptly you are named). Jews test notably higher than every other racial, ethnic or religious group and yet they, as a group, seem utterly ashamed of their superior status. What's wrong with the truth! If you say that every organ in the body can have measured differences, from eye and skin color to height, weight and speed group differences but then claim that the brain is the only organ in humans which is equal in all individuals and groups, you are promoting lies.
Jews tend to be obsessed with what the Nazis did to us in the past and this partly explains why they are generally leftists who push the equality agenda. Equality of opportunity is not a bad idea but equality of ability is a lie. Yes, the Nazis used lies about Jewish inferiority as an excuse to push their program to exterminate us. This doesn't mean that because one group actually does possess superior cognitive skills, it should seek to punish others. It just doesn't follow.
SavetheWest, if you are really interested in saving the West, you should educate yourself about the changes which are slowly destroying the West. Yes, the West is badly in need of saving. Here is the civilization which brought mankind every form of modern transportation and communication. It has brought us modern medicine and limited constitutional forms of government. If the truth be told, every invention and scientific advance worth mentioning in the past millennium occurred in the West. And yet, we in the West are presently hellbent on self-destruction.
It is this idea, this lie, of equal ability which is destroying us from within. Jews possess a mean IQ of up to 115, the Europeans is 100. But they are systematically displacing themselves with low IQ Third-Worlders and Muslims who have neither the inclination nor the ability to assimilate. Fertility rates among whites is far below replacement levels worldwide and they are allowing a steady stream of non-white immigrants who tend to have four to eight children per family. The prognosis is not good. Demography is destiny.
No one at JTF is advocating a Nazi Holocaust but that does not mean that it isn't high time that we begin re-thinking our immigration policies in white countries. Just as we advocate that Israel should be a predominantly Jewish country, it is consistent to want white countries to remain predominantly white. In the decade I was born here in NYC, the population was 93% white. Now, according to the latest census, our population is under 35% white. The change is occurring so gradually that no one seems to notice. So, SavetheWest, in 35 years, when you may be the last white left, would you please shut the lights before you leave.
I don't know where you got the idea that I think the third world should immigrate to western countries or am on their side. What I'm saying is that these studies can be used and have been used by Nazis. I saw a post a while ago that said that Sephardic Jews had lower IQ's than Ashkenazi Jews. It was a difference between 30 points or something. Chaim rightly pointed out that Sephardic Jews have been hugely successful in the USA from business to science to education and that point has been used to attack Sephardic Jews by racists. There are so many ways that these things could be used in the wrong way. Even if there are differences between blacks and whites with IQ, it dehumanizes an entire race to say they are genetically stupid. Should we tell Alan Keyes he is a monkey because of his genetics? How about blacks who pass the bar exam; I know it's not many but it does take high intelligence to do that. Why for instance, are Africans way more successful and have better families than American blacks? They have a British influenced education system and it's not acceptable to be a failure or drug dealer as much as it is in black American society. Nazis used to measure Jews heads and bodies to try to prove they were inferior. What if a third world government decided to use these studies to show the physical inferiority of whites so they could justify killing them? What if a government decides to kill anyone with black genes and you find out you have .0001 black in you and then are ordered to be killed? It's possible that many people have ancestors that they don't know about from many differnet ethnicities but it means nothing to me.
I also can't tell you how many people I've met with brilliant parents who are complete morons.
I'm sure there are many genetic differences that influence intelligence but I feel like we are writing the book for people before they are able to live their lives.
You don't have to tell me the problems with black Americans and illegal Hispanics; I have the stolen goods and knives stuck in my face to prove it.
I also don't think everyone should be encouraged to mix with each other and create some huge beige race of people. If they do despite it being discouraged; I'm not going to be angry at or hate the children of those people. My belief on why Jews are smart is because G-d blessed them with knowledge and Jews have a history of reading, studying, education and seeking knowledge. You look at Latin or black culture and they just don't care about these things and embrace immorality; that's why they have so many problems.
Having millions of uneducated people who have no loyalty to these Western countries and are from the cradle to grave immoral and anti-American, is suicidal. I don't want anyone from the third world coming to America, Europe, or Australia. America may have had a history of immigration but why Europe has an obligation to do this is beyond me. America should let in mostly Europeans and very small numbers of educated Asians, Indians and others who are not Muslims. They all should be required to prove they are loyal to America as well.
I 100% agree that America should be 90% white and third world immigration halted. I'm just not into the eugenics thing.
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Also, there was a genetic study of Jews and Arabs in Israel. They found they were the closest genetically than any group they studied. The reason I believe they are so different is that the Arabs follow Islam which (as Chaim said) makes you stupid. Judaism takes a lifetime of study while the Koran can be memorized by some demented cleric from Cairo.
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I couldn't disagree more with muman613 and SavetheWest (how inaptly you are named). Jews test notably higher than every other racial, ethnic or religious group and yet they, as a group, seem utterly ashamed of their superior status. What's wrong with the truth! If you say that every organ in the body can have measured differences, from eye and skin color to height, weight and speed group differences but then claim that the brain is the only organ in humans which is equal in all individuals and groups, you are promoting lies.
Jews tend to be obsessed with what the Nazis did to us in the past and this partly explains why they are generally leftists who push the equality agenda. Equality of opportunity is not a bad idea but equality of ability is a lie. Yes, the Nazis used lies about Jewish inferiority as an excuse to push their program to exterminate us. This doesn't mean that because one group actually does possess superior cognitive skills, it should seek to punish others. It just doesn't follow.
SavetheWest, if you are really interested in saving the West, you should educate yourself about the changes which are slowly destroying the West. Yes, the West is badly in need of saving. Here is the civilization which brought mankind every form of modern transportation and communication. It has brought us modern medicine and limited constitutional forms of government. If the truth be told, every invention and scientific advance worth mentioning in the past millennium occurred in the West. And yet, we in the West are presently hellbent on self-destruction.
It is this idea, this lie, of equal ability which is destroying us from within. Jews possess a mean IQ of up to 115, the Europeans is 100. But they are systematically displacing themselves with low IQ Third-Worlders and Muslims who have neither the inclination nor the ability to assimilate. Fertility rates among whites is far below replacement levels worldwide and they are allowing a steady stream of non-white immigrants who tend to have four to eight children per family. The prognosis is not good. Demography is destiny.
No one at JTF is advocating a Nazi Holocaust but that does not mean that it isn't high time that we begin re-thinking our immigration policies in white countries. Just as we advocate that Israel should be a predominantly Jewish country, it is consistent to want white countries to remain predominantly white. In the decade I was born here in NYC, the population was 93% white. Now, according to the latest census, our population is under 35% white. The change is occurring so gradually that no one seems to notice. So, SavetheWest, in 35 years, when you may be the last white left, would you please shut the lights before you leave.
I don't know where you got the idea that I think the third world should immigrate to western countries or am on their side. What I'm saying is that these studies can be used and have been used by Nazis. I saw a post a while ago that said that Sefardic Jews had lower IQ's than Ashkenazi Jews. It was a difference between 30 points or something. Chaim rightly pointed out that Sefardic Jews have been hugely successful in the USA from business to science to education and that point has been used to attack Sefardic Jews by racists. There are so many ways that these things could be used in the wrong way. Even if there are differences between blacks and whites with IQ, it dehumanizes an entire race to say they are genetically stupid. Should we tell Alan Keyes he is a monkey because of his genetics? How about blacks who pass the bar exam; I know it's not many but it does take high intelligence to do that. Why for instance, are Africans way more successful and have better families than American blacks? They have a British influenced education system and it's not acceptable to be a failure or drug dealer as much as it is in black American society. Nazis used to measure Jews heads and bodies to try to prove they were inferior. What if a third world government decided to use these studies to show the physical inferiority of whites so they could justify killing them? What if a government decides to kill anyone with black genes and you find out you have .0001 black in you and then are ordered to be killed? It's possible that many people have ancestors that they don't know about from many differnet ethnicities but it means nothing to me.
I also can't tell you how many people I've met with brilliant parents who are complete morons.
I'm sure there are many genetic differences that influence intelligence but I feel like we are writing the book for people before they are able to live their lives.
You don't have to tell me the problems with black Americans and illegal Hispanics; I have the stolen goods and knives stuck in my face to prove it.
I also don't think everyone should be encouraged to mix with each other and create some huge beige race of people. If they do despite it being discouraged; I'm not going to be angry at or hate the children of those people. My belief on why Jews are smart is because G-d blessed them with knowledge and Jews have a history of reading, studying, education and seeking knowledge. You look at Latin or black culture and they just don't care about these things and embrace immorality; that's why they have so many problems.
Having millions of uneducated people who have no loyalty to these Western countries and are from the cradle to grave immoral and anti-American, is suicidal. I don't want anyone from the third world coming to America, Europe, or Australia. America may have had a history of immigration but why Europe has an obligation to do this is beyond me. America should let in mostly Europeans and very small numbers of educated Asians, Indians and others who are not Muslims. They all should be required to prove they are loyal to America as well.
I 100% agree that America should be 90% white and third world immigration halted. I'm just not into the eugenics thing.
I think that some of the posts are going a little overboard on the research of genetics being largely responsible for intelligence as a negative connotation.
Some of you guys are acting like the gun control crowd out there, do people use guns to do evil things? Sure, the SS death squads used their Mauser K98's to exterminate Jews but does that mean we completely ignore or ban the use of firearms?
The same applies with genetics, too many people associate genetics with Nazi ideology, we're not talking Social Darwinism here after all. I never pointed out to superiority, but I think there are some differences here that the cause of evil in the world is due to culture and not genetics.
I fail to see why this is such a controversial issue, Ashkenazi Jews are known to have 112.6 IQ on average
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence
I'm not stating that Ashkenazi are superior to Sefardic Jews or vice versa, I think culture has somewhat a impact on a persons intelligence, but I think genetic factors based on the research also play a critical role.
A Jew is a Jew to me regardless of their background.
It's factual however that cultures with a low IQ are in a much worse state than the rest of the world.
Think of it like this, do genetics play a role how you look or if you are going to be fat or skinny? Yes and no....
Those who descend from a family of obese parents are likely to end up obese themselves, does that mean that they can never become skinny? No, perhaps it would be more difficult due to factors like metabolism, etc.
I'm not stating by any means that someone is going to be an idiot based on their genetics but it does play a role to some degree.
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Personally I have never chosen to take an IQ test. I have never been impressed by them, and I happen to believe that progress in life depends on a lot of other things as well - determination, hard work, initiative, the ability to deal with people, a reputation for professionalism and honesty, etc. The problem is that there is no reason to believe that all these other behavioural characteristics do not have a genetic basis as well. Those who persist in denying genetics are providing a fertile breeding ground for those who would, and do, create a levelled society into which anyone is welcome, and in which everybody can be assured of an equal start by the massive transference of funds from the more hard working segments to those who prefer to sit all day on their backsides and listen to Rap.The result is predictable disaster, which is doing nothing to advance society and which for the rest of us is a massive disincentive to work.
As a notable UK Professor once said on the arrival of the Race Relations Act, you can ban racial discrimination just like you can ban arithmetic. I believe that much the same can be said of genetics.
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I see the opposite of what most here are saying. I see that although there is much genetic diversity in the world there is also a lot of similarity between peoples. I have said numerous times I deal with people from all over the world. In most cases the people I deal with are good and righteous individuals who share the goals which I have, to make peace in the world and to be able to teach our children right from wrong. It is true that there are cultures which are not healthy for society. But it is a long stretch to say that just because a person is born from one particular ethnicity that he will be saved from problems. I have seen problems with just about every ethnicity also. What is required is to be true to yourself and to strive to become a better human being.
Jewish belief includes the idea that all the nations of the world will see the righteous behavior of Israel and will realize the unity of Hashem. The Jews have a mission to raise up the righteous nations of the world.
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What I'm saying is that these studies can be used and have been used by Nazis.
"There is not a truth existing which I fear or would wish unknown to the whole world." -- Thomas Jefferson
There are those who say that religion is dangerous because more people have been killed in its name than any other cause. There are those who say that scientific knowledge is dangerous because it has produced atom bombs. All knowledge is a double-edged sword which is capable of being used for good or evil but seeking knowledge and truth will always be intrinsic to human nature.
Personally I have never chosen to take an IQ test.
When I attended elementary school we had no choice in the matter. We were all required to take it. After the birth of the civil rights movement it was discovered that these tests discriminate against stupid people and they were withdrawn. Now, only the government allows itself to administer g loaded tests to prospective employees even though it has been proven that they are the best predictors for job success.
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This is only half the story. What matters isn't just intelligence, but work ethic. Black culture values laziness and stupidity, so even the smart blacks act like gutter schvartzes. On the other hand, there are plenty of whites, Jews, and Asians of average intellect who get straight As simply because they work their rumps off.
I agree 100%. People cannot accomplish much with intelligence alone.
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What I'm saying is that these studies can be used and have been used by Nazis.
"There is not a truth existing which I fear or would wish unknown to the whole world." -- Thomas Jefferson
There are those who say that religion is dangerous because more people have been killed in its name than any other cause. There are those who say that scientific knowledge is dangerous because it has produced atom bombs. All knowledge is a double-edged sword which is capable of being used for good or evil but seeking knowledge and truth will always be intrinsic to human nature.
Personally I have never chosen to take an IQ test.
When I attended elementary school we had no choice in the matter. We were all required to take it. After the birth of the civil rights movement it was discovered that these tests discriminate against stupid people and they were withdrawn. Now, only the government allows itself to administer g loaded tests to prospective employees even though it has been proven that they are the best predictors for job success.
I had to take a IQ test in highschool, I scored 121.
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I think these studies can be very dangerous. Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics? It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons. No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination. Just my opinion though.
I second this.
Also, IQ tests aren't really that great. Racists will always ignore the environmental factors that play in IQ tests. Intellectual accomplishments is what matters. I know people who are lions in Torah and Talmudic studies, these are the smart people I look up to. Take the Talmud for instance; if you do a folio a day, I think you can finish the entire Talmud in 7 years. What an achievement! These same people then go on to quote the Talmud left and right, like a mental Rolodex. Such an intellectual achievement should surely be a sign of a smart individual.
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I think these studies can be very dangerous. Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics? It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons. No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination. Just my opinion though.
I second this.
Also, IQ tests aren't really that great. Racists will always ignore the environmental factors that play in IQ tests. Intellectual accomplishments is what matters. I know people who are lions in Torah and Talmudic studies, these are the smart people I look up to. Take the Talmud for instance; if you do a folio a day, I think you can finish the entire Talmud in 7 years. What an achievement! These same people then go on to quote the Talmud left and right, like a mental Rolodex. Such an intellectual achievement should surely be a sign of a smart individual.
I think we'd all agree that there is a HUGE difference between knowledge and intelligence. Honestly... some of the most knowledgeable people I know have no common sense or reason... but they are great at playing trivial pursuit.
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This study also completely innores the fact that many different types of intelligence exist. Many people that have very little book learning have insights into the world that are truly staggering, while others with a great deal of book learning are without any idea of how the world works.
I would like to see some follow up with epigentics and if this experiment can be replicated before I get overly excited one way or the other.
Remember, from an evolutionary perspective, Humans are basically just another ape, who has not been overly successful as far as species go. For example there are more bacteria in a single home than humans who have ever lived. Dinosaurs have been around for over 200 million years (keep in mind, only the non avian Dinosaurs died out at the K-T boundary, the other, which we normally think of as birds are doing just fine)
Also, there is so little known about brain structure and function overall that any true understanding of innate intelligence is a very long way off.
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I think these studies can be very dangerous. Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics? It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons. No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination. Just my opinion though.
I second this.
Also, IQ tests aren't really that great. Racists will always ignore the environmental factors that play in IQ tests. Intellectual accomplishments is what matters. I know people who are lions in Torah and Talmudic studies, these are the smart people I look up to. Take the Talmud for instance; if you do a folio a day, I think you can finish the entire Talmud in 7 years. What an achievement! These same people then go on to quote the Talmud left and right, like a mental Rolodex. Such an intellectual achievement should surely be a sign of a smart individual.
I think we'd all agree that there is a HUGE difference between knowledge and intelligence. Honestly... some of the most knowledgeable people I know have no common sense or reason... but they are great at playing trivial pursuit.
Don't know the people you are referring to but like I said; IQ tests are nonsense. How else would we measure intelligence? Intellectual achievement is one.
I remember taking an IQ test, I was asked how do you make a martini. I kid you not. I don't drink, how the hell should I know? I threw that junk out. People have called me a genius for my gift of languages, I know 4, learning a 5th. Yet I could bomb any Math test you give me. Go figure. Humans are far too complex to be figured out by some 30 question test.
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This study also completely innores the fact that many different types of intelligence exist. Many people that have very little book learning have insights into the world that are truly staggering, while others with a great deal of book learning are without any idea of how the world works.
I would like to see some follow up with epigentics and if this experiment can be replicated before I get overly excited one way or the other.
Remember, from an evolutionary perspective, Humans are basically just another ape, who has not been overly successful as far as species go. For example there are more bacteria in a single home than humans who have ever lived. Dinosaurs have been around for over 200 million years (keep in mind, only the non avian Dinosaurs died out at the K-T boundary, the other, which we normally think of as birds are doing just fine)
Also, there is so little known about brain structure and function overall that any true understanding of innate intelligence is a very long way off.
Humans are not just another ape, no matter what they have taught you.. Humanity is an exclusively divine creation and no ape is ever going to be a human.
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I'm a complete mathematical spaz.
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I dont trust ADVANCED science. It interferes with religion.
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This study also completely innores the fact that many different types of intelligence exist. Many people that have very little book learning have insights into the world that are truly staggering, while others with a great deal of book learning are without any idea of how the world works.
I would like to see some follow up with epigentics and if this experiment can be replicated before I get overly excited one way or the other.
Remember, from an evolutionary perspective, Humans are basically just another ape, who has not been overly successful as far as species go. For example there are more bacteria in a single home than humans who have ever lived. Dinosaurs have been around for over 200 million years (keep in mind, only the non avian Dinosaurs died out at the K-T boundary, the other, which we normally think of as birds are doing just fine)
Also, there is so little known about brain structure and function overall that any true understanding of innate intelligence is a very long way off.
Humans are not just another ape, no matter what they have taught you.. Humanity is an exclusively divine creation and no ape is ever going to be a human.
Except for all of the inconsistencies and bad design of the human. Our prefrontal lobes are too small, our adrenal glands are to large, our retinas are installed backwards and upside down, our lower backs never evolved to walk upright so we have lower back problems, out immune system is on of the worst on the planet etc etc etc
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I'm inclined to agree with much of MikeyChua's post. However, I also understand where Muman and Savethewest are coming from.
It's one thing to acknowledge differences between racial groups. Whether it's genetic or whether it's about people freely choosing to engage in evil behavior, as Chaim believes, the differences are there. I've met Mikey, he's a religious Jew, and a bright person who's a big fan of JTF. The only disagreement he has with us is the belief that the evil behavior of Third World groups is due to IQ rather than the conscious desire to do evil.
So whether it's all about IQ, or simply the free choice to engage in evil behavior, we need to look at the bigger picture.
Acknowledging the differences is one thing. However the important thing is what we decide to do with that knowledge.
Smart people of evil behavior can do a lot of harm. Smartness does not mean superior..it's how one uses it. I still maintain that this movment is about righteous and evil behavior and righteous and evil cultures. Since human beings have free will, they are capable of choosing right from wrong (assuming they aren't ignorant.)
But it's factual that the people of Africa have a lower IQ than the rest of the world, and look at the evil behavior they are engaged in daily?
It doesn't really prove anything really...I can easily say that their culture and imitation of the apes in their region drive them to act the way they do..it's their environment.
Nevertheless, if someone smart or dumb is brought up to be righteous, he/she will be righteous.
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What I'm saying is that these studies can be used and have been used by Nazis.
"There is not a truth existing which I fear or would wish unknown to the whole world." -- Thomas Jefferson
There are those who say that religion is dangerous because more people have been killed in its name than any other cause. There are those who say that scientific knowledge is dangerous because it has produced atom bombs. All knowledge is a double-edged sword which is capable of being used for good or evil but seeking knowledge and truth will always be intrinsic to human nature.
Personally I have never chosen to take an IQ test.
When I attended elementary school we had no choice in the matter. We were all required to take it. After the birth of the civil rights movement it was discovered that these tests discriminate against stupid people and they were withdrawn. Now, only the government allows itself to administer g loaded tests to prospective employees even though it has been proven that they are the best predictors for job success.
I had to take a IQ test in highschool, I scored 121.
dummy! :::D :P
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I think these studies can be very dangerous. Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics? It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons. No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination. Just my opinion though.
I second this.
Also, IQ tests aren't really that great. Racists will always ignore the environmental factors that play in IQ tests. Intellectual accomplishments is what matters. I know people who are lions in Torah and Talmudic studies, these are the smart people I look up to. Take the Talmud for instance; if you do a folio a day, I think you can finish the entire Talmud in 7 years. What an achievement! These same people then go on to quote the Talmud left and right, like a mental Rolodex. Such an intellectual achievement should surely be a sign of a smart individual.
I think we'd all agree that there is a HUGE difference between knowledge and intelligence. Honestly... some of the most knowledgeable people I know have no common sense or reason... but they are great at playing trivial pursuit.
Don't know the people you are referring to but like I said; IQ tests are nonsense. How else would we measure intelligence? Intellectual achievement is one.
I remember taking an IQ test, I was asked how do you make a martini. I kid you not. I don't drink, how the hell should I know? I threw that junk out. People have called me a genius for my gift of languages, I know 4, learning a 5th. Yet I could bomb any Math test you give me. Go figure. Humans are far too complex to be figured out by some 30 question test.
Let me guess. an internet IQ test. The same ones that say the average Laker player has a 130 IQ. Those tests are nonsence... I think we went over that in detail with a previous post.
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Think of intellect as ammunition. By itself it is completely worthless. What is important is in whose hands is that ammunition.
Intelligence by itself is worthless. It is no guarantee of morality or accomplishment. What good is an intelligent lazy person? Or an intelligent drunk? What good is a Ferrari without gasoline? I am a teacher and I have seen mountains of intellect go to waste over the years.
I am an intelligent person, but I would much rather be thought of by my friends and family as a good person. That is infinitely more important.
Think of the people that inspire you the most. Do you admire them for their intellect? I admire Moses, Abraham, Mordechai Anielewicz, Rabbi Kahane, Terry Fox, John Hagee, Tiger Woods, and many others. Some of these were very smart people, but that is not why I admire them. Think of the men on your list. Is their intelligence the reason for your admiration?
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I think these studies can be very dangerous. Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics? It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons. No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination. Just my opinion though.
I second this.
Also, IQ tests aren't really that great. Racists will always ignore the environmental factors that play in IQ tests. Intellectual accomplishments is what matters. I know people who are lions in Torah and Talmudic studies, these are the smart people I look up to. Take the Talmud for instance; if you do a folio a day, I think you can finish the entire Talmud in 7 years. What an achievement! These same people then go on to quote the Talmud left and right, like a mental Rolodex. Such an intellectual achievement should surely be a sign of a smart individual.
I think we'd all agree that there is a HUGE difference between knowledge and intelligence. Honestly... some of the most knowledgeable people I know have no common sense or reason... but they are great at playing trivial pursuit.
Don't know the people you are referring to but like I said; IQ tests are nonsense. How else would we measure intelligence? Intellectual achievement is one.
I remember taking an IQ test, I was asked how do you make a martini. I kid you not. I don't drink, how the hell should I know? I threw that junk out. People have called me a genius for my gift of languages, I know 4, learning a 5th. Yet I could bomb any Math test you give me. Go figure. Humans are far too complex to be figured out by some 30 question test.
Let me guess. an internet IQ test. The same ones that say the average Laker player has a 130 IQ. Those tests are nonsence... I think we went over that in detail with a previous post.
No, it was a test in highschool we took similar to SAT's.
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What I'm saying is that these studies can be used and have been used by Nazis.
"There is not a truth existing which I fear or would wish unknown to the whole world." -- Thomas Jefferson
There are those who say that religion is dangerous because more people have been killed in its name than any other cause. There are those who say that scientific knowledge is dangerous because it has produced atom bombs. All knowledge is a double-edged sword which is capable of being used for good or evil but seeking knowledge and truth will always be intrinsic to human nature.
Personally I have never chosen to take an IQ test.
When I attended elementary school we had no choice in the matter. We were all required to take it. After the birth of the civil rights movement it was discovered that these tests discriminate against stupid people and they were withdrawn. Now, only the government allows itself to administer g loaded tests to prospective employees even though it has been proven that they are the best predictors for job success.
My point is not to hide from the science but to be very careful in conclusions about what the science says. Eugenics was a key, if not main idealogy of the Nazi movement. If the Nazis discovered some weaponry during WW2, it would be foolish to say that anyone who uses that technology is a Nazi. Nazis were obsessed with genetics and used it for the worst evil mankind has seen in modern history. Genetics probably would be a very interesting science and perhaps some personality traits are linked to it. What I don't like, is telling anyone that their future is predetermined in one way or another, based on their genetic code. Even though black Americans have major problems, I think it would be a huge mistake to say every single black has their success and future mapped out. There are generations of white people in the Pacific Northwest, Glasgow or Appalachia who never have their situation improve. Is it all genetics, economics, family attitude or culture? Many people from these areas seem to rise above these situations; it's very hard to say.
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What I'm saying is that these studies can be used and have been used by Nazis.
"There is not a truth existing which I fear or would wish unknown to the whole world." -- Thomas Jefferson
There are those who say that religion is dangerous because more people have been killed in its name than any other cause. There are those who say that scientific knowledge is dangerous because it has produced atom bombs. All knowledge is a double-edged sword which is capable of being used for good or evil but seeking knowledge and truth will always be intrinsic to human nature.
Personally I have never chosen to take an IQ test.
When I attended elementary school we had no choice in the matter. We were all required to take it. After the birth of the civil rights movement it was discovered that these tests discriminate against stupid people and they were withdrawn. Now, only the government allows itself to administer g loaded tests to prospective employees even though it has been proven that they are the best predictors for job success.
My point is not to hide from the science but to be very careful in conclusions about what the science says. Eugenics was a key, if not main idealogy of the Nazi movement. If the Nazis discovered some weaponry during WW2, it would be foolish to say that anyone who uses that technology is a Nazi. Nazis were obsessed with genetics and used it for the worst evil mankind has seen in modern history. Genetics probably would be a very interesting science and perhaps some personality traits are linked to it. What I don't like, is telling anyone that their future is predetermined in one way or another, based on their genetic code. Even though black Americans have major problems, I think it would be a huge mistake to say every single black has their success and future mapped out. There are generations of white people in the Pacific Northwest, Glasgow or Appalachia who never have their situation improve. Is it all genetics, economics, family attitude or culture? Many people from these areas seem to rise above these situations; it's very hard to say.
Nazis were and still are also obsessed with weaponry and advancement of weapons, but yet we still don't glorify weapons as evil on this forum. Genetics like weapons have their purpose.
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What I'm saying is that these studies can be used and have been used by Nazis.
"There is not a truth existing which I fear or would wish unknown to the whole world." -- Thomas Jefferson
There are those who say that religion is dangerous because more people have been killed in its name than any other cause. There are those who say that scientific knowledge is dangerous because it has produced atom bombs. All knowledge is a double-edged sword which is capable of being used for good or evil but seeking knowledge and truth will always be intrinsic to human nature.
Personally I have never chosen to take an IQ test.
When I attended elementary school we had no choice in the matter. We were all required to take it. After the birth of the civil rights movement it was discovered that these tests discriminate against stupid people and they were withdrawn. Now, only the government allows itself to administer g loaded tests to prospective employees even though it has been proven that they are the best predictors for job success.
My point is not to hide from the science but to be very careful in conclusions about what the science says. Eugenics was a key, if not main idealogy of the Nazi movement. If the Nazis discovered some weaponry during WW2, it would be foolish to say that anyone who uses that technology is a Nazi. Nazis were obsessed with genetics and used it for the worst evil mankind has seen in modern history. Genetics probably would be a very interesting science and perhaps some personality traits are linked to it. What I don't like, is telling anyone that their future is predetermined in one way or another, based on their genetic code. Even though black Americans have major problems, I think it would be a huge mistake to say every single black has their success and future mapped out. There are generations of white people in the Pacific Northwest, Glasgow or Appalachia who never have their situation improve. Is it all genetics, economics, family attitude or culture? Many people from these areas seem to rise above these situations; it's very hard to say.
Nazis were and still are also obsessed with weaponry and advancement of weapons, but yet we still don't glorify weapons as evil on this forum. Genetics like weapons have their purpose.
Eugenics though was unique to the Nazis as a national philosophy. Almost every nation has had a military and weapons.
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Personally I have never chosen to take an IQ test. I have never been impressed by them, and I happen to believe that progress in life depends on a lot of other things as well - determination, hard work, initiative, the ability to deal with people, a reputation for professionalism and honesty, etc. The problem is that there is no reason to believe that all these other behavioural characteristics do not have a genetic basis as well. Those who persist in denying genetics are providing a fertile breeding ground for those who would, and do, create a levelled society into which anyone is welcome, and in which everybody can be assured of an equal start by the massive transference of funds from the more hard working segments to those who prefer to sit all day on their backsides and listen to Rap.The result is predictable disaster, which is doing nothing to advance society and which for the rest of us is a massive disincentive to work.
As a notable UK Professor once said on the arrival of the Race Relations Act, you can ban racial discrimination just like you can ban arithmetic. I believe that much the same can be said of genetics.
I don't even want to know what the Race Relations Act says. I'm guessing it says that the British must become strangers in their own land and love Muslim immigrants.
My belief is that you should give people a chance to succeed, only if you have the resources to do so. There is no reason for Britian to host these people from all over the world. Britain should give all British people a chance to get a good education but I just don't get why it's up to them to educate third world slums in London.
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Think of intellect as ammunition. By itself it is completely worthless. What is important is in whose hands is that ammunition.
Intelligence by itself is worthless. It is no guarantee of morality or accomplishment. What good is an intelligent lazy person? Or an intelligent drunk? What good is a Ferrari without gasoline? I am a teacher and I have seen mountains of intellect go to waste over the years.
I am an intelligent person, but I would much rather be thought of by my friends and family as a good person. That is infinitely more important.
Think of the people that inspire you the most. Do you admire them for their intellect? I admire Moses, Abraham, Mordechai Anielewicz, Rabbi Kahane, Terry Fox, John Hagee, Tiger Woods, and many others. Some of these were very smart people, but that is not why I admire them. Think of the men on your list. Is their intelligence the reason for your admiration?
Interesting point.
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I agree. You are born with a combined intelligence of your parents.
That's obvious by just observation.
Like the out of africa theory. All the intelligent people left the continent. All the dumb ones stayed behind.
Just look around. Are there any smart people in the dark continent?
All other lands have smart people except in the hot jungle.
Environment also plays a large part in intelligence.
In the hot jungle, everything is plentiful.
Hungry? Grab a banana.
Horny? Grab a hoe.
Lazy? Lay down on the soft muddy ground.
In other lands, there's cold wind, harsh cold snow. Then there's the desert.
Extreame conditions force people to be creative. Those who made fire, wheel, etc... survived; those who couldn't died.
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Eugenics was a key, if not main idealogy of the Nazi movement.
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2008/08/ending_a_histor.php
IQ tests are nonsense.
If there are any folks on this list who have doubts about the validity and reliability of IQ tests, may I suggest an excellent primer on the subject which was written by a NYC Jew: A Question of Intelligence by Daniel Seligman. This, of course, is directed at those of you who might actually possess more intellectual curiosity than an interest in spouting opinions based on no knowledge.
I think these studies can be very dangerous.
First the Nazis had a book burning of all books written by Jews because their ideas were dangerous.
Then a saintly rabbi of blessed memory went to Israel. He told the truth and formed a political party but they banned it because they said that his ideas were too dangerous.
Then his number two tried to go to Israel to carry on his work, but the authorities refused to admit him because they said his ideas were too dangerous.
Now his followers want to ban other ideas because, you guessed it, they're too dangerous.
The hippies carried around signs which read, "ban the bomb."
So Bob Dylan made a sign which said, "ban the bums."
Me, I'm making a banner which reads, "ban the banners."
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I think these studies can be very dangerous. Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics? It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons. No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination. Just my opinion though.
I second this.
Also, IQ tests aren't really that great. Racists will always ignore the environmental factors that play in IQ tests. Intellectual accomplishments is what matters. I know people who are lions in Torah and Talmudic studies, these are the smart people I look up to. Take the Talmud for instance; if you do a folio a day, I think you can finish the entire Talmud in 7 years. What an achievement! These same people then go on to quote the Talmud left and right, like a mental Rolodex. Such an intellectual achievement should surely be a sign of a smart individual.
I think we'd all agree that there is a HUGE difference between knowledge and intelligence. Honestly... some of the most knowledgeable people I know have no common sense or reason... but they are great at playing trivial pursuit.
Don't know the people you are referring to but like I said; IQ tests are nonsense. How else would we measure intelligence? Intellectual achievement is one.
I remember taking an IQ test, I was asked how do you make a martini. I kid you not. I don't drink, how the hell should I know? I threw that junk out. People have called me a genius for my gift of languages, I know 4, learning a 5th. Yet I could bomb any Math test you give me. Go figure. Humans are far too complex to be figured out by some 30 question test.
Let me guess. an internet IQ test. The same ones that say the average Laker player has a 130 IQ. Those tests are nonsence... I think we went over that in detail with a previous post.
Nope, was in college when I took it.
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Speaking of eugenics, it was NOT started by the Nazis. The father of the eugenics movement was Sir Francis Galton, who was Charles Darwin's cousin. Here's some background on Mr. Galton:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Francis_Galton
You guys should also know that the eugenics movement was strongest in America in the early part of the 20th century. There was even an article many years ago on the JTF website saying the exact same thing. Hitler, yimach shmo, studied the American eugenics laws, and had them implemented in Germany. Here's more info:
http://hnn.us/articles/1796.html
Also remember that the founder of Planner Parenthood, Margaret Sanger was a eugenicist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger
In her book "The Pivot of Civilization" she wrote all about how the "feeble minded" should be prevented from having children. She believed that charity was wrong in that it encourage irresponsible breeding.
Reed the whole thing here:
http://www.trdd.org/pivot_01.htm
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MikeyChua,
I have one disagreement on that Amren article you linked to, specifically this paragraph:
Nothing has blackened the reputation of eugenics so much as its link to the Hitler regime. In the estimation of Paul Popenoe, one of the leading figures in the American eugenics movement, “The major factor in the decline of eugenics was undoubtedly Hitlerism.” But in fact, as the American geneticist and anthropologist Stephen Saetz has demonstrated in a well-researched study of eugenics in the Third Reich, German eugenic practice was not radically different from its American counterpart, and many policies afterwards blamed on eugenics, above all the measures against the Jews, had nothing to do with eugenics. The “euthanasia” program, in which as many as 80,000 of the severely retarded and incurably insane were killed, was motivated by a desire to free medical facilities and personnel at the outset of the war, and was not a eugenics program. In the view of historian Sheila Faith Weiss: “German eugenicists . . . have at most only indirect responsibility for the “euthanasia’ program.”
There is no excuse for killing innocent disabled people!
Also, if Nazi Germany hadn't started WWII by attacking Poland and invading all of Europe, the issue of freeing up hospital beds would be irrelevant!
Here's more background on the T4 program:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4
Hitler called these disabled people "useless eaters."
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The fact that any member would be promoting Amren "articles" is atrocious. We are not Nazis and we do not believe there is a difference between humans and "subhumans". This dreck belongs nowhere near JTF.
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The fact that any member would be promoting Amren "articles" is atrocious. We are not Nazis and we do not believe there is a difference between humans and "subhumans". This dreck belongs nowhere near JTF.
Amren as in American renaissance? I copied that article from sherdog forums.
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Yes. American Renaissance.
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It doesn't matter where it's copied from, Amren is a Nazi Hitlerite organization and none of its poison belongs within a hundred miles of JTF.
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It doesn't matter where it's copied from, Amren is a Nazi Hitlerite organization and none of its poison belongs within a hundred miles of JTF.
My article didn't come from Amren though.
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I can accept the scientific fact that intelligence is genetically determined without thinking anything drastic should be done with that knowledge.
If we are going to use that knowledge then I don't think it should be used to keep dumb people from having kids, but it might be able to be used to save some resources such as the absolutely insane use of money to try to make black scores equal to white scores on the same standardized tests. That will never happen and it's throwing money down the hole to try to make people equal who are not equal.
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I think these studies can be very dangerous. Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics? It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons. No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination. Just my opinion though.
I second this.
Also, IQ tests aren't really that great. Racists will always ignore the environmental factors that play in IQ tests. Intellectual accomplishments is what matters. I know people who are lions in Torah and Talmudic studies, these are the smart people I look up to. Take the Talmud for instance; if you do a folio a day, I think you can finish the entire Talmud in 7 years. What an achievement! These same people then go on to quote the Talmud left and right, like a mental Rolodex. Such an intellectual achievement should surely be a sign of a smart individual.
I think we'd all agree that there is a HUGE difference between knowledge and intelligence. Honestly... some of the most knowledgeable people I know have no common sense or reason... but they are great at playing trivial pursuit.
Don't know the people you are referring to but like I said; IQ tests are nonsense. How else would we measure intelligence? Intellectual achievement is one.
I remember taking an IQ test, I was asked how do you make a martini. I kid you not. I don't drink, how the hell should I know? I threw that junk out. People have called me a genius for my gift of languages, I know 4, learning a 5th. Yet I could bomb any Math test you give me. Go figure. Humans are far too complex to be figured out by some 30 question test.
Let me guess. an internet IQ test. The same ones that say the average Laker player has a 130 IQ. Those tests are nonsence... I think we went over that in detail with a previous post.
Nope, was in college when I took it.
Well, it wasn't an IQ test, that I can assure you; even if it was advertised by your professor as such. Very few people have actually taken a 'true' IQ test. (I haven't either). My uncle took it (he needed to in the field he works in). It was a 4 hour test, and it was a huge deal.
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I dont trust ADVANCED science. It interferes with religion.
"Man, Proud Man,dressed in a little conceit, does such things as make the angels weep" - Shakespeare. As a lifetime plant breeder my constant irritation has been those of my colleagues who instantly think they understand everything. It's nothing necessarily to do with religion, it's just that our brain is not made that good. I fear that the USA's love affair with GM crops may be a case in point. a recent gene to jump species became the AIDS virus.
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Eugenics was a key, if not main idealogy of the Nazi movement.
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2008/08/ending_a_histor.php
One thing that automatically stood out in the beginning of that article is that the founder of Eugenics had Charles Limbergh as a helper. I don't know if you knew that Limbergh was one of the biggest American anti-Semites of all time.
I'm not saying ban the study of genetics, genetic history or its effects on behavoir. Quite the opposite, genentics should be studied and mapped out, in my opinion. Genetics and Darwins theories have stood the test of time but they need to be studied and examined much further. Just like nuclear weaponry, it shouldn't be used by anyone for any purpose. There is much we don't know and I don't like the idea of mapping out people's futures to justifying killing or sterilizing people who are considered undesirables. MassudahGoodname made a very good point about Bushes expansion of powers as not becoming a threat by his presidency but by the next presidency. When evil people control these sciences, that is never a good thing for anyone. I've seen blacks talk about "defects by white people" where they are more likely to be serial killers or Nazis on Youtube say Jews are more likely to have mental problems using so called genetic theories. We should never think these sciences could never be used against us for reasones we may not be able to consider or think of today.
IQ tests are nonsense.
If there are any folks on this list who have doubts about the validity and reliability of IQ tests, may I suggest an excellent primer on the subject which was written by a NYC Jew: A Question of Intelligence by Daniel Seligman. This, of course, is directed at those of you who might actually possess more intellectual curiosity than an interest in spouting opinions based on no knowledge.
I think these studies can be very dangerous.
First the Nazis had a book burning of all books written by Jews because their ideas were dangerous.
Then a saintly rabbi of blessed memory went to Israel. He told the truth and formed a political party but they banned it because they said that his ideas were too dangerous.
Then his number two tried to go to Israel to carry on his work, but the authorities refused to admit him because they said his ideas were too dangerous.
Now his followers want to ban other ideas because, you guessed it, they're too dangerous.
The hippies carried around signs which read, "ban the bomb."
So Bob Dylan made a sign which said, "ban the bums."
Me, I'm making a banner which reads, "ban the banners."
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If scientific breakthroughs are interfering with your religious beliefs maybe you need to reevaluate something. Seriously science is not your enemy. Sometimes people use science for the wrong things or conduct experiments that should not be conducted, but we can handle those on a case-by-case basis. Science itself is an excellent tool to understand the world and should be embraced.
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If scientific breakthroughs are interfering with your religious beliefs maybe you need to reevaluate something. Seriously science is not your enemy. Sometimes people use science for the wrong things or conduct experiments that should not be conducted, but we can handle those on a case-by-case basis. Science itself is an excellent tool to understand the world and should be embraced.
Ruby, generally spoken I feel the opposite.
If science is interfering with my religious believes, I choose religion. :)
Who knows if their theories are true. Every year, there are new ones.
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Science is not for teaching absolute truth, it's for exploring the world around us. As we study more, we gain a better and better understanding of that world.
I think the religious intepretations people use can be wrong if they conflict with science in a major way.
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I think it's important to see that key scientific principles that are taken as law have often been disporven years later. For years we saw the chart of ape becoming man. The chart said that along the process of becoming human, the homo habilus and homo erectus (both pre human beings) lived at different times. They recently found fossils that proved that they lived at the same time for many years. Now that chart has been disproven.
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I disagree with this image. Minus organisms living in the human body, the human body is %100 genetic based. The instructions for all cells in the body come from the Chromatin in the nucleus of our cells.
Inherited genetics is a different story. Chaim had mentioned that some of genetics are acquired from things like bad diets, drinking and smoking. Environmental factors are capable of modifying our genetics. Our cells are constantly dividing and making copies of our chromosomes. Like copying a cassette tape, these copies are never perfect. It is amazing though how well hashem has allowed this process to proceed on such a large scale with as few mistakes as there are. Still, the process is not perfect. Each time this happens, mutations are possible.
I believe that limits on capacity for intelligence are inherited, however, what we make out of the cards that are dealt to us are affected by our actions.
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I think it's important to see that key scientific principles that are taken as law have often been disporven years later. For years we saw the chart of ape becoming man. The chart said that along the process of becoming human, the homo habilus and homo erectus (both pre human beings) lived at different times. They recently found fossils that proved that they lived at the same time for many years. Now that chart has been disproven.
There were several hominids that lived at the same time. Even when our more modern type of human was around there were different hominids living at the same time, like Erectus in Asia, Neanderthals in Europe and the Middle East, and I think a few others. It's the same as the Arctic fox, fennec fox, red fox and gray fox living at the same time on earth today. They're not the same as one another but they're related and spring from a common ancestor.
Take Back our temple, genetics are not acquired in the way you describe. Lamarck's ideas were disproven a long time ago. Some genetic potentials may or may not express themselves based on environmental conditions (for example someone may have a genetic tendency toward obesity, but if they never have enough nutrition to sustain a normal weight, they will never become obese). Someone might have a genetic tendency toward homosexuality, but they still have a personal choice on how they act on those tendencies.
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Lamarck's ideas did not look at the molecular level. If you cut off a limb from a lab rat, the limb will be present in the rat's offspring no matter how many generations that you test. If a virus on the other hand implants it's DNA into your cells and your body does not reject them, that change in your DNA is permanent. Genetic poisons can also degrade DNA.
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Lamarck's ideas did not look at the molecular level. If you cut off a limb from a lab rat, the limb will be present in the rat's offspring no matter how many generations that you test. If a virus on the other hand implants it's DNA into your cells and your body does not reject them, that change in your DNA is permanent. Genetic poisons can also degrade DNA.
It's a good thing you brought up the retroviruses that make permanent DNA changes. One of the strongest evidences for evolution is that Humans and Chimpanzees share at least 5 of these which could only have been true if there was a physical common ancestor.
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Here is a very good link on this topic.
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/atapuerca/africa/index.php
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One of the strongest evidences for evolution is that Humans and Chimpanzees share at least 5 of these which could only have been true if there was a physical common ancestor.
We do have a common ancestor. It is Hashem. He created all of us.
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I think it's important to see that key scientific principles that are taken as law have often been disporven years later. For years we saw the chart of ape becoming man. The chart said that along the process of becoming human, the homo habilus and homo erectus (both pre human beings) lived at different times. They recently found fossils that proved that they lived at the same time for many years. Now that chart has been disproven.
There were several hominids that lived at the same time. Even when our more modern type of human was around there were different hominids living at the same time, like Erectus in Asia, Neanderthals in Europe and the Middle East, and I think a few others. It's the same as the Arctic fox, fennec fox, red fox and gray fox living at the same time on earth today. They're not the same as one another but they're related and spring from a common ancestor.
Take Back our temple, genetics are not acquired in the way you describe. Lamarck's ideas were disproven a long time ago. Some genetic potentials may or may not express themselves based on environmental conditions (for example someone may have a genetic tendency toward obesity, but if they never have enough nutrition to sustain a normal weight, they will never become obese). Someone might have a genetic tendency toward homosexuality, but they still have a personal choice on how they act on those tendencies.
They still don't have the missing link (I know what some people are going to say :laugh:) that shows the bridge between the hominids and if they interbreeded with Neanderthals or not. We've been told so much that those hominids such as the erectus and habilus lived at different times within the same area and now they have to revisit that theory. I'm sure everyone has seen that chart that we learned in school and it is not valid anymore as of just a couple years ago.
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Everything in science is just a model anyway. The Bohr's model of the Atom is not what really happens. Even the electron cloud models are just models. Our current model of evolution does not have to be %100 correct to be of scientific use. We need to know that Hashem has created the laws of this universe and no matter how much we study science or torah, we are never going to have the knowledge that hashem has. By no means though does that mean we should not study science or investigate haluchic questions.
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Everything in science is just a model anyway. The Bohr's model of the Atom is not what really happens. Even the electron cloud models are just models. Our current model of evolution does not have to be %100 correct to be of scientific use. We need to know that Hashem has created the laws of this universe and no matter how much we study science or torah, we are never going to have the knowledge that hashem has. By no means though does that mean we should not study science or investigate haluchic questions.
I really like your post. Science should not be treated as the enemy of faith. The two are able to go hand in hand. In genreal, people misunderstand the word "theory" when used for scientific models. A scientific theorem is a consistant set of facts in regard to a particular topic. Because our base of information will increase over time, some additions or modifications can be plugged into the theory without rendering the basic concept itself invalid.
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One of the strongest evidences for evolution is that Humans and Chimpanzees share at least 5 of these which could only have been true if there was a physical common ancestor.
We do have a common ancestor. It is Hashem. He created all of us.
I've told people who believe in a literal 6 day creation that since G-d is the source of everything anyway that they shouldn't get so hung up on being related to other life. I believe that G-d created everything too. I just disagree with "creationists" on how and what methods G-d used to create everything.
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Eugenics was a key, if not main idealogy of the Nazi movement.
The following is taken from a monograph written by Dr. Steven Farron, a Jewish South African professor who spoke at our Preserving Western Civilization conference in February:
The absurdity of attributing the Holocaust to eugenics and
Social Darwinism should be ... obvious. Nearly every eugenicist,
beginning with the introduction (pp.3-4) to the book
that began the eugenics movement and the study of genetic determinism,
Galton’s Hereditary Genius (1869), singled out Jews
as a (and often the) superior race. The Nazis agreed that Jews
are much more intelligent than Gentiles. Hitler said, “The Aryan
and the Jew...are as far apart as a beast and a man. Not that I
would call the Jew a beast. He is much further removed from the
beasts than we Aryans” (Rauschning 1939, p.238; italics added).
As Jean-Paul Sartre observed in his classic study of anti-
Semitism, Réflexions sur la question juive (1954, p.26), “For
the anti-Semite intelligence is Jewish.” Because the Nazis and
their predecessors misunderstood the nature of capitalistic interactions,
they regarded intelligence not as the source of social
well-being but as a means to swindle, manipulate and ultimately
dominate. Statements like “the Jews again dupe the dumb Goyim
[Gentiles]” (Mein Kampf, p.325) abound in Hitler’s writings and
speeches.
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I think these studies can be very dangerous. Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics? It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons. No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination. Just my opinion though.
This great response to the "dangerous knowledge" argument is taken from Prof. J. Philippe Rushton's speech at our Preserving Western Civilizaton conference from last February:
Wanted: More Race Realism, Less Moralistic Fallacy
An enormous gulf separates the knowledge base of experts in the behavioral sciences and what the politically correct gatekeepers stop from
appearing in the mainstream media and policy discussions. The world’s population groups are obviously not interchangeable. Indeed, some group differences have proven so intractably that debates over potential remedial treatments have spanned generations. Long-standing group inequalities pose a problem in developing countries such as India, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Nigeria, and South Africa as well as the US (Klitgaard, 1986; Lynn, 2008; Sowell, 2004).
The “naturalistic fallacy,” identified by philosopher David Hume (1711–1776), occurs when reasoning jumps from statements about what is to prescription about what ought to be. An example of the naturalistic fallacy would be approving of all wars if scientific evidence showed warfare was part of human nature. The converse of the naturalistic fallacy is the “moralistic fallacy”—jumping from prescriptions about what ought to be to statements about what is. An example of the moralistic fallacy: claiming that, because warfare is wrong, it cannot be part of human nature.
The term “moralistic fallacy” was coined by Harvard University microbiologist Bernard Davis (1978) in response to demands for ethical guidelines to control the study of what could allegedly become “dangerous knowledge”…such as the genetic basis of IQ. For well over a generation, the study of the genetic and racial aspects of IQ has given rise to the best examples we have of the moralistic fallacy in action. Happily, under the sheer weight of evidence, there are now signs this anti-intellectual and unscientific prohibition is breaking down, at least in the academic world. Most of the opposition to the genetic hypothesis consists of mere moralizing and worse, the creation of a threatening and coercive atmosphere incompatible with academic freedom, free enquiry, and the civil liberties of a truly democratic society.
Despite repeated claims to the contrary, racial group differences are as large today as when first measured nearly 100 years ago. They, and the associated gaps in living standards, education levels etc., are rooted in factors that are largely heritable, not cultural. IQ differences are attributable more to differences in brain size than to social, economic, or political factors. There is little or no value in denying reality. Improving opportunities and removing arbitrary barriers is a worthy ethical goal. Equal opportunity is laudable. But we must realize that it will result in equitable, though unequal outcomes.
Jensen (2006) proposed “two laws of individual differences”—(1) individual differences in learning and performance increase as task complexity increases, and (2) individual differences in performance increase with practice and experience (unless there is a low ceiling on proficiency). Consequently, the more we remove environmental barriers and improve everybody’s intellectual performance, the greater will be the relative influence of genetic factors (because the environmental variance is being removed). However, this means that equal opportunity will result in unequal outcomes, within-families, between-families, and between population groups. The fact that we have learned to live with the first, and to a lesser degree the second, offers some hope we can learn to do so for the third.