JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Axel on July 14, 2009, 11:29:06 AM
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Sometimes feels like only Jews support Israel, and at a world population of 0.2% population makes me feel a little bit unpopular :::D
So just wondering, how many supporters here are non-Jewish?
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I'm a Christia, and I support Israel for that reason. I had a tough time deciding whether to align myself with the Muslims and "Palestine" or the Jews and Israel. But eventually I found my way.
It's funny how anti-semitism is based only on conspiracy theories, and Zionism is based on facts and reality.
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Sometimes feels like only Jews support Israel, and at a world population of 0.2% population makes me feel a little bit unpopular :::D
So just wondering, how many supporters here are non-Jewish?
From what I understand, most of our members are non-Jews. I myself am Jewish.
There is no such thing as "part Jewish." A person is either Jewish or not.
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I'm a Christia, and I support Israel for that reason. I had a tough time deciding whether to align myself with the Muslims and "Palestine" or the Jews and Israel. But eventually I found my way.
It's funny how anti-semitism is based only on conspiracy theories, and Zionism is based on facts and reality.
I'm glad you understand things from our side. Nothing is worse than patriots who try to solve problems by pondering conspiracy theories all day long, and jumping on the anti-zionist train :)
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There is no such thing as "part Jewish." A person is either Jewish or not.
By that I mean has one parent that is Jewish (as you probably figured out).
In Nazi Germany, that's all it took.
Someone with part Jewish blood will always be considered a full Jew by anti-semites or purists, so by this part-Jews are likely to feel a strong connection to the Jewish people.
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My Grandmother was Jewish, but I know that doesn't make me Jewish in anyway as I believe you have to be born Jewish or convert. But I am 100% pro Israel.
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You should remove Jewish Convert for he or she is a Jew.
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You should remove Jewish Convert for he or she is a Jew.
That's true, but I'm just curious as to what ethnicity some supporters are.
There are only 14 million of us, not enough to fight 1.5 billion you-know-who's.
Jews by birth I believe are more likely to be sympathetic to our cause, it's a given. This is why I slightly treasure more our non-Jewish supporters.
Like in Nazi Germany, Jewish supporters meant nothing...
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Part-Jewish. :dance: (I have Jewish ancestry too)
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There is no such thing as "part Jewish." A person is either Jewish or not.
By that I mean has one parent that is Jewish (as you probably figured out).
In Nazi Germany, that's all it took.
Someone with part Jewish blood will always be considered a full Jew by anti-semites or purists, so by this part-Jews are likely to feel a strong connection to the Jewish people.
Anti-semites and Nazis don't determine what and who is a Jew...The Torah determines who's a Jew (by birth).
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Anti-semites and Nazis don't determine what and who is a Jew...The Torah determines who's a Jew (by birth).
So you disagree that Jewishness is also a genetic trait? what is an atheist Jew in Europe?
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Anti-semites and Nazis don't determine what and who is a Jew...The Torah determines who's a Jew (by birth).
So you disagree that Jewishness is also a genetic trait? what is an atheist Jew in Europe?
I think there is also Jewish nation. And don't forget if someone had a Jewish grandparent that was also killed by nazis.
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You should remove Jewish Convert for he or she is a Jew.
True
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Anti-semites and Nazis don't determine what and who is a Jew...The Torah determines who's a Jew (by birth).
So you disagree that Jewishness is also a genetic trait? what is an atheist Jew in Europe?
Jewishness is definately NOT a genetic trait...you have ethiopian Jews and white russian jews and tan persian jews and converts...Judaism is not a genetic trait...Anyone who sincerely wants to become a Jew who converts apporpriately is a Jew..case end and point.
And you have born Jew who doesn't believe in anything and is an athiest...yes he is still a Jew by birth but doesn't practice Judaism....meaning he's a non practicing secular Jew.
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Personally I am a supportive member but am (a) not Jewish and (b) not resident in Israel. I therefore abstain from commenting on specifically Israeli affairs. I suspect that to get a real feel for the situation you need to be Jewish, in Israel, and holding a rifle. Anything else is just words.
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There is no such thing as "part Jewish." A person is either Jewish or not.
By that I mean has one parent that is Jewish (as you probably figured out).
In Nazi Germany, that's all it took.
So what? We don't determine reality based on what a tyrant says. We determine Jewish religion based on Torah. According to Jewish law a person is either Jewish or not Jewish. If the mother is Jewish (even if father is not) the person is Jewish.
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Anti-semites and Nazis don't determine what and who is a Jew...The Torah determines who's a Jew (by birth).
So you disagree that Jewishness is also a genetic trait? what is an atheist Jew in Europe?
Jews are a nation/people aside from just a religion. If you are born Jewish you remain so, no matter what crazy things you believe or no matter what stupid things you do. There may be exceptions in very extreme circumstances, but this is generally how it is. Once a Jew, always a Jew. And once a person converts, that's it, he has a new life as a Jew, and always remains so.
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My Grandmother was Jewish, but I know that doesn't make me Jewish in anyway as I believe you have to be born Jewish or convert. But I am 100% pro Israel.
Your mother's mother, or your father's mother? If it is your mother's mother, then you are actually Jewish.
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My Grandmother was Jewish, but I know that doesn't make me Jewish in anyway as I believe you have to be born Jewish or convert. But I am 100% pro Israel.
Your mother's mother, or your father's mother? If it is your mother's mother, then you are actually Jewish.
That would be my father's mother. But thank you for the info.
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Jews are a nation/people aside from just a religion. If you are born Jewish you remain so, no matter what crazy things you believe or no matter what stupid things you do. There may be exceptions in very extreme circumstances, but this is generally how it is. Once a Jew, always a Jew. And once a person converts, that's it, he has a new life as a Jew, and always remains so.
That's basically what I was saying. My point is that if someone half-Jewish they can still be considered part-Jewish, or simply Jewish if they identify with it strongly enough.
Traditionally it might go by mothers side, but I don't see how fathers DNA is less meaningfull.
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Jews are a nation/people aside from just a religion. If you are born Jewish you remain so, no matter what crazy things you believe or no matter what stupid things you do. There may be exceptions in very extreme circumstances, but this is generally how it is. Once a Jew, always a Jew. And once a person converts, that's it, he has a new life as a Jew, and always remains so.
That's basically what I was saying. My point is that if someone half-Jewish they can still be considered part-Jewish, or simply Jewish if they identify with it strongly enough.
No, that's not what I said. You just said the opposite of what I said. No matter how much they "identify" with it or want to be Jewish, if they are not Jewish, they are not Jewish. In other words, if the mother is Jewish (even if the father is not), the person is Jewish. If the mother is NOT Jewish (even if the father is) the person is not Jewish.
Traditionally it might go by mothers side, but I don't see how fathers DNA is less meaningfull.
Perhaps because it's not based on DNA. You made that up.
Whether you see it or not, that's the reality. You admit that traditionally the Jewish people define themselves as a nation through the mother. So who are you or me or anyone else to change that or to say that they are going to be a Jew anyway even not through the mother. That's like telling MENSA you're a member even though they repeatedly tell you you don't meet their criteria and have to be selected in order to join (not to imply anything about you personally)....
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My Grandmother was Jewish, but I know that doesn't make me Jewish in anyway as I believe you have to be born Jewish or convert. But I am 100% pro Israel.
Your mother's mother, or your father's mother? If it is your mother's mother, then you are actually Jewish.
That would be my father's mother. But thank you for the info.
You are Jewish in the reformed views.
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I am a Gentile and I will always believe and pray that Israel belong to the Jews. :usa+israel:
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No, that's not what I said.
You said Jews are a nation/people, I said Jews share similar DNA. Jews are varied in about 3 groups and that's about it. Ashkenazi, Sefardic and Mizrahi are all considered Jewish. You can only be classifed into these categories if you have a Jewish parent, aka share a similar DNA.
In other words, if the mother is Jewish (even if the father is not), the person is Jewish. If the mother is NOT Jewish (even if the father is) the person is not Jewish.
So G-d said that a Jew can only go by the mother? why would someone whom invented DNA make such a rule?
Perhaps because it's not based on DNA. You made that up
Ha, I wish. I would be quite the celebrated scientist had I discovered that race is genetic.
You admit that traditionally the Jewish people define themselves as a nation through the mother.
Traditionally Jewish people also practice Hasidisim, but it's got nothing to do with the actual religion nor classification of race.
So who are you or me or anyone else to change that or to say that they are going to be a Jew anyway even not through the mother.
Many liberal Jews and denominations are now ageeing that the father also counts. I don't understand how in the eyes of traditional Jews a convert counts more than someone with a Jewish father, grandmother and grandfather.
That's like telling MENSA you're a member even though they repeatedly tell you you don't meet their criteria and have to be selected in order to join (not to imply anything about you personally)....
Race is not MENSA and not something you control or ask to join. I will repeat, tradition does not refine DNA, it defines it. Human definitions, in my eyes, are worthless.
A gentile with a Jewish father is only a non-Jew in the eyes of other Jews, which is pretty sad.
Think about this also, how does having a Jewish mother devalue the gentile father? in science, a child can take the DNA of both parents depending on which one has stronger genes. How does mere tradition change that?
This tradition dates back to a time before DNA tests, when you couldn't always know who the real father was. I assume this is also observed by the lineage tree in the bible, which doesn't really change much.
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The Torah is what made the Jewish people Jewish. The Torah mandates that Judaism is passed through the mother. You can quibble and complain but the truth of the matter is you are just wasting time. The definition of a Jew is one whose mother is Jewish, or they have to convert. A person whose father is Jewish certainly can convert if they want to.
The Jewish status is not genetic. It is a spiritual link to the creator. The reason the Jews are not to intermarry is just for this problem which you pose. There would be no question about whether a person is a Jew or not if both parents are a Jew. So now those who violated the command are expecting the Law from G-d to change for their own arrogant behavior? I find that Chutzpadik to the max.
Anyone who has studied the Torah, any Rabbi of any competence who holds Torah as the word of G-d will tell you that a Jew is a Jew because of his mother being a Jew. There is no other way... You can trick people and pretend you are a Jew but G-d knows who is a Jew and who is not a Jew. There is no tricking Hashem.
Anyone who is not a Jew and considers that they are and have not converted, I recommend you convert because you cannot just call yourself a Jew. This is not Genetics and it doesn't matter who's genes you have when you are determining Jewishness. I think you are missing the point of what it means to be Jewish.
PS: What do you mean Jews practice Hasidism? What does this mean to you? Chassidic Judaism is a strain of Judaism which goes beyond the letter of the law. This is the meaning of the word Chassid, one who practices kindness beyond the law.
No, that's not what I said.
You said Jews are a nation/people, I said Jews share similar DNA. Jews are varied in about 3 groups and that's about it. Ashkenazi, Sefardic and Mizrahi are all considered Jewish. You can only be classifed into these categories if you have a Jewish parent, aka share a similar DNA.
In other words, if the mother is Jewish (even if the father is not), the person is Jewish. If the mother is NOT Jewish (even if the father is) the person is not Jewish.
So G-d said that a Jew can only go by the mother? why would someone whom invented DNA make such a rule?
Perhaps because it's not based on DNA. You made that up
Ha, I wish. I would be quite the celebrated scientist had I discovered that race is genetic.
You admit that traditionally the Jewish people define themselves as a nation through the mother.
Traditionally Jewish people also practice Hasidisim, but it's got nothing to do with the actual religion nor classification of race.
So who are you or me or anyone else to change that or to say that they are going to be a Jew anyway even not through the mother.
Many liberal Jews and denominations are now ageeing that the father also counts. I don't understand how in the eyes of traditional Jews a convert counts more than someone with a Jewish father, grandmother and grandfather.
That's like telling MENSA you're a member even though they repeatedly tell you you don't meet their criteria and have to be selected in order to join (not to imply anything about you personally)....
Race is not MENSA and not something you control or ask to join. I will repeat, tradition does not refine DNA, it defines it. Human definitions, in my eyes, are worthless.
A gentile with a Jewish father is only a non-Jew in the eyes of other Jews, which is pretty sad.
Think about this also, how does having a Jewish mother devalue the gentile father? in science, a child can take the DNA of both parents depending on which one has stronger genes. How does mere tradition change that?
This tradition dates back to a time before DNA tests, when you couldn't always know who the real father was. I assume this is also observed by the lineage tree in the bible, which doesn't really change much.
And the triangle really believes it is a square... But in reality it is still a triangle...
The bird thinks he is a cow... But he is really a bird....
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http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm
Who is a Jew?
A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.
It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship. See What Is Judaism?
This has been established since the earliest days of Judaism. In the Torah, you will see many references to "the strangers who dwell among you" or "righteous proselytes" or "righteous strangers." These are various classifications of non-Jews who lived among Jews, adopting some or all of the beliefs and practices of Judaism without going through the formal process of conversion and becoming Jews. Once a person has converted to Judaism, he is not referred to by any special term; he is as much a Jew as anyone born Jewish.
Although all Jewish movements agree on these general principles, there are occasional disputes as to whether a particular individual is a Jew. Most of these disputes fall into one of two categories.
First, traditional Judaism maintains that a person is a Jew if his mother is a Jew, regardless of who his father is. The liberal movements, on the other hand, consider a person to be Jewish if either of his parents was Jewish and the child was raised Jewish. Thus, if the child of a Jewish father and a Christian mother is raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Reform movement, but not according to the Orthodox movement. On the other hand, if the child of a Christian father and a Jewish mother is not raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Orthodox movement, but not according to the Reform movement! The matter becomes even more complicated, because the status of that children's children also comes into question.
Second, the more traditional movements do not always acknowledge the validity of conversions by the more liberal movements. The more modern movements do not always follow the procedures required by the more traditional movements, thereby invalidating the conversion. In addition, Orthodoxy does not accept the authority of Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist rabbis to perform conversions, and the Conservative movement has debated whether to accept the authority of Reform rabbis.
About Matrilineal Descent
Many people have asked me why traditional Judaism uses matrilineal descent to determine Jewish status, when in all other things (tribal affiliation, priestly status, royalty, etc.) we use patrilineal descent.
The Torah does not specifically state anywhere that matrilineal descent should be used; however, there are several passages in the Torah where it is understood that the child of a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man is a Jew, and several other passages where it is understood that the child of a non-Jewish woman and a Jewish man is not a Jew.
In Deuteronomy 7:1-5, in expressing the prohibition against intermarriage, G-d says "he [i.e., the non-Jewish male spouse] will cause your child to turn away from Me and they will worship the gods of others." No such concern is expressed about the child of a non-Jewish female spouse. From this, we infer that the child of a non-Jewish male spouse is Jewish (and can therefore be turned away from Judaism), but the child of a non-Jewish female spouse is not Jewish (and therefore turning away is not an issue).
Leviticus 24:10 speaks of the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man as being "among the community of Israel" (i.e., a Jew).
On the other hand, in Ezra 10:2-3, the Jews returning to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews.
Several people have written to me asking about King David: was he a Jew, given that one of his female ancestors, Ruth, was not a Jew? This conclusion is based on two faulty premises: first of all, Ruth was a Jew, and even if she wasn't, that would not affect David's status as a Jew. Ruth converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed. See Ruth 1:16, where Ruth states her intention to convert. After Ruth converted, she was a Jew, and all of her children born after the conversion were Jewish as well. But even if Ruth were not Jewish at the time Obed was born, that would not affect King David's status as a Jew, because Ruth is an ancestor of David's father, not of David's mother, and David's Jewish status is determined by his mother.
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Everybody is right here; "part-Jewish" is a way of someone expressing their ancestry and nothing more. It has no halachic standing. Either you are Jewish or you aren't.
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The Torah is what made the Jewish people Jewish. The Torah mandates that Judaism is passed through the mother.
Can you give me a quote?
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No, that's not what I said.
You said Jews are a nation/people, I said Jews share similar DNA. Jews are varied in about 3 groups and that's about it. Ashkenazi, Sefardic and Mizrahi are all considered Jewish. You can only be classifed into these categories if you have a Jewish parent, aka share a similar DNA.
You just made this up. There are more than those 3 groups, but either way, that it is based on "one parent" is something you arbitrarily thought up.
Yes Jews are a nation. I did not say they are a "race." That would be purely genetic. But that's a modern-day term that does not apply.
In other words, if the mother is Jewish (even if the father is not), the person is Jewish. If the mother is NOT Jewish (even if the father is) the person is not Jewish.
So G-d said that a Jew can only go by the mother? why would someone whom invented DNA make such a rule?
Because it's not based on DNA. Who says it is? You made this idea up. It was based on the mother. Fact of life. Take it up with G-d...
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You admit that traditionally the Jewish people define themselves as a nation through the mother.
Traditionally Jewish people also practice Hasidisim, but it's got nothing to do with the actual religion nor classification of race.
No, Hasidism goes back only about 300 years tops. So how exactly does that classify as "traditionally" ?
But I would not agree that it has "nothing" to do with Judaism. That is ridiculous. And that it has nothing to do with race is also interesting for you to say because neither is Jewish nationhood based on race. So in that way, with some kind of warped logic, I guess it's similar to hasidism.
So who are you or me or anyone else to change that or to say that they are going to be a Jew anyway even not through the mother.
Many liberal Jews and denominations are now ageeing that the father also counts. I don't understand how in the eyes of traditional Jews a convert counts more than someone with a Jewish father, grandmother and grandfather.
Because that is how it has always been. It is determined by the mother or conversion. Nothing else. So what I don't understand is why you expect us to change when that is how it is defined. What I don't understand is why these other reformists have decided they can change the definition as of about 100 years ago or less. There is no such thing as "liberal denominations" in Judaism. There are not denominations. It's not the church. Either one goes by Jewish law or he doesn't. Reform in recent years has tried to make up it's own new invented Jewish law. That is not legitimate. And they only included those with a Jewish father because the reform "synagogues" were losing membership.
That's like telling MENSA you're a member even though they repeatedly tell you you don't meet their criteria and have to be selected in order to join (not to imply anything about you personally)....
Race is not MENSA and not something you control or ask to join.
But the Jewish nation is not based on "race." That is why you have so many Jews of different skin colors and racial compositions. Because they are a Jew based on something else. Not skin color or facial features. They are Jews based on maternal lineage or conversion. But you missed the point I was making. MENSA is also not something you control or ask to join. You either fit the criteria or you don't. If not, then tough luck. Same here. But at least here, you can convert in order to join the Jewish people. You can't just force Mensa to accept you.
I will repeat, tradition does not refine DNA, it defines it.
It defines it? What defines what? This was not decipherable.
Human definitions, in my eyes, are worthless.
But when you said You can only be classifed into these categories if you have a Jewish parent, aka share a similar DNA
THAT was a human definition that you arbitrarily decided on. You are being inconsistent. You allow for your own human definitions, but not the ones you don't like. In any event, the definition of the Jewish people as defined by matrilineal descent is from the Torah.
A gentile with a Jewish father is only a non-Jew in the eyes of other Jews, which is pretty sad.
You yourself acknowledge he's a non-Jew by calling him a gentile! But there is nothing wrong with being a gentile. Especially if one is a righteous gentile and helps the Jewish people or supports Israel, that is a great thing! But that doesn't make a person Jewish.
And there's nothing wrong with that. G-d made them a beautiful gentile.
Think about this also, how does having a Jewish mother devalue the gentile father? in science, a child can take the DNA of both parents depending on which one has stronger genes.
First off it's not a value judgement so I'm not sure what you mean by devalue. And again you are defining it by DNA and science. G-d did not say, "the Jewish people will be defined by 19th century sociologists' definition of race."
How does mere tradition change that?
MERE tradition? I notice now that since you have run out of arguments as to why you think you can replace tradition, instead you now belittle tradition itself (much like the reformists). "Mere" tradition is based on our Divine revelation received at Sinai thousands of years ago. You do not negate that because you feel like it. That is arbitrary.
This tradition dates back to a time before DNA tests, when you couldn't always know who the real father was.
So what? What bearing does this have on whether membership in a nation is based on father or mother? If it was simply that, the sages would have included an exception where the father is known to be a Jew. But they did no such thing.
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The Torah is what made the Jewish people Jewish. The Torah mandates that Judaism is passed through the mother.
Can you give me a quote?
Are you joking? You know what the Torah is?
It is the five books of Moses which is the story about the creation of the Jewish nation. Without the Torah there would be no such thing as a Jew.
If you would like to hear others, like Rabbis, express this idea I am sure I can find several quotes.
http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/torah.htm
http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5759/vaera.html
http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/parsha/kahn/archives/bamidbar69.htm
The Torah was given to the Jewish people through three mediums: fire, water and the wilderness. Man is formed from the four elements: fire, wind (spirit), water and earth. After the sin of Adam and Eve, the negative aspect of the elements became part of them. The connection between the element of wind (spirit) and the ability to talk is hinted to at the creation of man. The negative aspects of the element of water represent man's lust for worldly pleasures. And the negative aspects of earth represent depression with one's situation. The reference to the sixth day alludes to the sixth day of the month of Sivan. In order to be worthy to receive the Torah, the Jewish people had to restore the other three elements as well. The Jewish people restored the aspect of laziness represented by the element of earth. With humbleness the Jewish people restored the element of fire. The Jewish people were united in their readiness to accept G'd's Torah and rectified their personal cravings for pleasure represented by the element of water. In order to merit getting the Torah, with which they could restore the element of wind (spirit), the Jewish people first had to restore the other three elements of fire, water and earth represented by the wilderness. Every Jew has the ability to connect with the revelation at Mount Sinai and get closer to his personal completeness.
And I already gave you quotes concerning what Torah says about the child of a non-Jewish woman and a Jewish man. Such a child is not considered Jewish by Written Torah, and it expressly not Jewish according to Oral law, and by tradition, and custom.
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Here is a good explanation...
http://www.beingjewish.com/identity/whoisajew.html
Who Is a Jew, According to the Torah?
How do we define who is a born Jew and who is not? If one of your parents is not Jewish, are you still Jewish?
This subject is a hotly debated one, especially among the non-Orthodox Jewish groups, but I don't really intend to discuss the politics of it very much. I want to simply explain the Orthodox stance, and demonstrate that it is the original Jewish definition.
The original and current Jewish definition of a born Jew is someone whose mother is Jewish. Even though the Torah forbids a Jewish woman to marry a Gentile man, if she does, her children will still be Jewish.
The Torah also forbids a Jewish man to marry a Gentile woman, and if he does, his children by that woman will not be Jewish.
This annoys a great many people who wish to consider themselves Jewish, despite their non-Jewish mother. It is not my intention to annoy anyone. It is my intention to explain Judaism, and not to rationalize any dilution or changes in Jewish Law.
Please understand: if you are in that position, I hear your pain, and I understand and feel it. In no way do I claim that you do not have a Jewish heart, or Jewish feelings, or perhaps even the potential of a Jewish soul. I cannot know these things.
The question of being a Jew, however, is not the same thing, unfortunately. Having a Jewish heart and Jewish feelings does not make someone Jewish. One has to be Jewish according to Jewish Law.
A young woman (I'll call her Sheila) wrote me a while back, complaining about this concept. Her father is Jewish, but her mother is not. She demanded that I prove that the Torah attaches a persons Jewish lineage to the mother. Here are her arguments, and my responses to them.
Sheila wrote me: I am VERY upset to hear that people who are Jewish only by their father's side are not considered by the Orthodox to be Jewish, when in the Torah it firmly states that the father is the leader of the house and all the stories in Torah talked about Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Moses, etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Leader of the house." In any case, there is no indication that the Leader of the household passes along nationality. Tribal affiliation, yes, but not nationality. Let me demonstrate.
Were the Matriarchs Jewish? The answer is yes. (Of course, the word "Jewish" is not exactly the right word to use, since the word "Jew" came about only later, because of the Tribe of Judah, but never mind that for now. "Jewish" is the easiest term to use for this discussion, so we'll use that word.) The Matriarchs, Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Leah, Bilha, and Zilpah, were all just as Jewish as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
What made Abraham Jewish? What made Sarah Jewish? Abraham's father and mother were not Jewish. Sarah's father or mother were not Jewish. What made Abraham and Sarah Jewish?
Abraham and Sarah were both Jewish because they converted.
Okay, then why was Isaac Jewish? Was it because his father was Jewish, or because his mother was Jewish? How can you tell? Does it make a difference, if they were both Jewish?
You might ask me, who says that Sarah was Jewish? It's pretty logical that Sarah was just as Jewish as Abraham, but in case you're not convinced, read my article "Was King David Jewish?" You'll find the link below.
For that matter, why wasn't Ishmael Jewish? His father was Abraham. Yet only Isaac became the ancestor of the Jews. Was it because Isaac's mother (Sarah) was Jewish, and Ishmael's mother (Hagar) was not? No, that is not the reason. It was because Isaac chose to serve Hashem, and Ishmael did not.
But according to you, Sheila, since you say that being Jewish is passed along by the father, Ishmael should also have been Jewish. Yet he was not. Apparently, being Jewish was passed along some other way. Was it through the mother? No, it wasn't that either, and I'll prove it.
Let's look at the next generation. Why was Jacob Jewish, when Esau was not? They both had the same mother, and the same father! The reason is because Jacob served Hashem, and Esau did not, and thus Hashem chose Jacob, but did not choose Esau.
All of Jacob's children served Hashem, and therefore Hashem chose all of them.
So we see that the Biblical stories of our ancestors do not show that Jewishness was passed along by the father (or the mother). There is no evidence of that at all.
When we, the children of Israel, stood at Mount Sinai and accepted the Torah, we accepted new Laws that we had never been expected to keep until then. And from then on, Jewish lineage was passed down by the mother, whether or not one accepted Judaism. (And I will prove that below, with Hashem's help.)
As to the stories in the Torah, there are stories of the Matriarchs as well. Our Mother Sarah, exactly like our Father Abraham, was a convert to Judaism. So was Rebecca, because her parents were not Jewish.
So why do most of the stories focus on the men? It is not because they were the carriers of Jewish nationality. It was because the stories that the Torah wants to teach us most often happened with the men. But there are plenty of stories about the women as well.
The stories of the Torah are not there to tell us simply how we are descended from Jews. That is not important, because we can all just convert if we wanted to. Besides, a simple lineage chart would suffice. The stories are there to teach us lessons, not to tell us how we are descended from Jews.
The stories also teach us that we will always carry the merits of our ancestors. Plus they give us object lessons to try to emulate.
Sheila wrote me again: Nowhere in the Torah does it state that only the mother is the passer of the Jewish blood.
And where does it say that the father is? But I shall demonstrate, with Hashem's help, that the Torah does say that the mother carries the Jewish lineage.
When the Torah speaks of the Law against marrying a non-Jew (Deuteronomy 7:3), here is what the Torah says:
Do not intermarry with them; do not give your daughter to his son, and do not take his daughter for your son.
For he will cause your son to turn away from Me, and they will worship the gods of others....
Now, that second verse is strange. The first verse gives the two possible examples: your daughter may not marry a Gentile man, and your son may not marry a Gentile woman. Both are forbidden, and both are mentioned in the first verse.
But the second verse cites only one example. "For he will cause your son to turn away from me...."
Okay, so which example is the Torah talking about? Let's try them in order.
Number 1: Let's say your daughter married a Gentile man. So why does the Torah say "He will cause your SON..." Who is the son? Shouldn't it say "He will turn your DAUGHTER away?"
Okay, so let's try the second possibility: your son married a Gentile woman. Again, why does the Torah say "HE will turn your son away?" It should say "SHE will turn your son away from Me...."
So we need to understand this. Who is this "he," and who is this "son?"
Well, what does the Torah means when it uses the word "son?" Let's look at some examples:
Exodus 2:18. "And they came to their father Re'uel." But they were the daughters of Jethro! (Jethro was also known as Chovev, as we see from Judges 4:11.) Why does the Torah call them the daughters of Re'uel? Re'uel was Jethro's father (Numbers 10:29), and we often find that the Torah calls a grandfather a father, and a grandson a son.
Genesis 20:12. "Furthermore, she is indeed my sister, my father's daughter, though not my mother's daughter, and she became my wife." Abraham was explaining that he had not lied. But was Sarah really his father's daughter? In fact, Sarah was his niece, the daughter of his brother. Therefore, Sarah was the daughter of Terach, her grandfather. So in a sense she was Abraham's sister.
And this is why Abraham told his nephew Lot "we are brothers..." (Genesis 13:8). The grandson of my father is like the son of my father. And that makes him my brother.
Genesis 29:5. Jacob asked the people of the city "Do you know Lavan the son of Nachor?" But Lavan was the grandson of Nachor, not the son of Nachor! Lavan was the son of Besu-el, who was the son of Nachor. In fact, Rebecca, Lavan's sister, told Eliezer "I am the daughter of Besu-el, who was the son of Milkah the wife of Nachor" (Genesis 24:24). So why did Jacob call Lavan the son of Nachor, when Lavan was the grandson of Nachor? Because a grandson is considered like a son.
But is this true of all a person's children? What if you your daughter marries a gentile man, and has a son. Is that child also considered your son?
Well, the Torah seems to say that it is. Where? In the verse we started with, in Deuteronomy 7:4. The Torah says "For he will cause your son to turn away." Who is "he?" Who does it mean by "your son?"
"He" means the Gentile son-in-law. Your son means your daughter's son. Since your daughter is Jewish, her daughter is Jewish. But your Gentile son-in-law might turn your grandson away from Hashem. In other words, if you let your daughter marry a Gentile, your son-in-law will cause your grandson to turn away from Hashem.
But what if it's your son who married a Gentile woman? Well, the Torah does not say "she will turn your son away from Hashem." The Torah does not warn us that the Gentile woman will turn the Jewish man away from Hashem. Why not? I'm not sure, but perhaps it's because if your son marries a gentile woman, he has already turned away from Hashem!
Okay, but what about your son's children? Won't their Gentile mother turn them away from Hashem? The answer is that the children of a Gentile mother are not Jewish in the first place, so the Torah is not worried about them being turned away from Hashem.
To make it clear: why doesn't the Torah say "she will turn your son away from Hashem?" Why isn't the Torah worried that your Gentile daughter-in-law will turn your grandson away from G-d? The answer is because the son of your Gentile daughter-in-law is not Jewish, and he is not considered your grandson (or son) at all.
Sheila asked: Do you decide what G-d accepts??
To which I responded: Of course not. We follow what the Torah teaches.
And Sheila wrote: But, men in power have decided to take away some of the laws of Torah.
And I answered her: But that doesn't make sense. If it were because men wanted power, then they would have given themselves the power of lineage. Instead, according to you they gave the power of Jewish lineage to the women!
Sheila wrote: I want to be Jewish for no other reason except than because I believe it and feel it stir in my heart.
Good, that is a beautiful thing. Then do it the right way. Do it the Torah way.
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You just made this up. There are more than those 3 groups, but either way, that it is based on "one parent" is something you arbitrarily thought up.
Sure, there could be more. Can you name some of these groups? I mean, ethnicities that define a person as Jewish? That it is based on one parent, I thought up? err, how do I say this, look at your argument. My argument is that a mother doesn't make someone more Jewish than a father. I don't care what tradition says, tradition has nothing to do with science.
Because it's not based on DNA. Who says it is? You made this idea up. It was based on the mother.
Not based on DNA, based on mother. Makes sense.
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Are you joking?
Why would I be joking? You claim that the Torah says that Jews must go by the mother, I'm asking for proof for this claim. Not text observing the Torah, but an actual rule that says Jews MUST go by mother and mother only.
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Are you joking?
Why would I be joking? You claim that the Torah says that Jews must go by the mother, I'm asking for proof for this claim. Not text observing the Torah, but an actual rule that says Jews MUST go by mother and mother only.
You obviously mock the Jewish religion. The Oral law has been quoted to you yet you insist on seeing it in the written Torah. Don't you realize that there are two parts to the revelation at Sinai? I am not going to get into heretical arguments here.
The Jewish law, not just tradition, is that Judaism is the trait passed through the mother. You don't want to believe so you are trying to mock the Jewish religion. Just about everything in Written Torah doesn't make sense without the clarification of Oral law. I can give you many examples of this yet I think that you will not listen.
Will you argue that Torah sanctions Lesbian relationships? Don't you know that Written Torah doesn't expressly forbid this relationship? Only through Oral law which interprets the passage of "Not immitating the ways of the Mitzrim" as commanding no woman to woman sexual relationships... I will leave it with this simple example of Oral law explaining the written law. If you don't accept Judaism then there is nothing more I will explain to you.
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Hear a Rabbi explain the Talmudic source for Matrilinear Descent:
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/202/Q1/
Dear Rabbi,
What is the halachic source of matrilineal descent? Why are we set against patrilineal descent when all of our ancestors in the Torah are referred to as so and so son of so and so, referring only to the father's name?
Dear John Doe,
In the time of the Patriarchs it appears that descent followed the father. However, the period of the Patriarchs was before the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai. It was only with the revelation on Sinai that the Jewish people received their legal system. Therefore it is impossible to bring Halachic, legal proofs from the Patriarchs. Our source for Halacha is the Written and Oral Torah.
The Mishna in Tractate Kiddushin 66b states that if a child's mother is not Jewish, then the child is not Jewish.
The Babylonian Talmud, Kiddushin 68b, derives this Halacha from a verse in Deuteronomy 7:1-5, which also contains the prohibition against intermarriage. "When the L-rd your G-d brings you to the land that you will inherit, many nations will fall away before you; the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Prizites, the Hivites and the Jebusites... And you shall not marry with them; do not give your daughters to his sons and do not take his daughters for your sons. For he will turn your son away from me and they will worship other gods...." The Talmud points out that the verse only seems to be concerned with the son of the Israelite woman being turned away, "for he (the gentile)" will turn your son away. It does not seem to be concerned that "she (the gentile) will turn your son away." The implication is that the son of the Jewish woman and gentile man is still considered "your (the Jewish grandfather in this case) son," but in the case of a gentile woman married to a Jewish man, the child is not considered "your son" and therefore there is no concern about his turning away. This follows Rashi and Tosfot Ri Hazaken in their explanation of the Gemara.
Tosfot (ad loc. "Amar krah") offers a number of different methods of derivation from the verse, but agrees with the conclusion. This law is also found in the Mishna in Yevamot (ch. 2, 21a): "He counts as a brother in every respect unless he was the son of a maidservant or of a gentile woman."
This halacha is codified in the Code of Jewish Law, Even HaEzer 8:5, and in Maimonides' Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships, 15:4. Maimonides states: "This is the general rule: The status of an offspring from a gentile man or from a gentile woman is the same as his mother's; we disregard the father."
Another source in the Torah is the verse in Leviticus 24:10: "the son of an Israelite woman went out - and he was the son of an Egyptian man." This person is described as being "in the midst of the community of Israel" - in other words, Jewish.
Probably the most explicit verse against patrilineal descent is in the book of Ezra 10:2-3: Some of the Jews who had returned from the exile declare, "We have trespassed against our G-d and have taken foreign wives of the people of the land. Yet, there is hope in Israel concerning this thing. Therefore, let us make a covenant with our G-d to put away all the wives and such as are born to them, according to the counsel of the L-rd and of those who assemble at the commandment of G-d; let it be done according to the law."
Sources are also in Midrash Rabbah, Numbers, 19, and Jerusalem Talmud, Kiddushin 3:12.
Do we ignore the father completely? Certainly not. The father is the one who determines what tribe the child is from. That is: Kohen, Levi, Yisrael. Also, in determining royalty and other leadership roles among the Jewish people we go from father to son.
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This guy Axel is very suspicious. Look at his comments over in the Klansman thread.
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This guy Axel is very suspicious. Look at his comments over in the Klansman thread.
It is suspicious to me too... It seems like this guy is just concerned with $Hitler standards of Jewish identity...
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No, Hasidism goes back only about 300 years tops.
That's my point, it was a tradition invented by Jews not long ago. Does this then mean that a non-Hasidic Jew is not Jewish? no. The mother tradition just happens to be older and more ingrained.
It is determined by the mother or conversion. Nothing else.
This might be religion, I'm talking about race. If a person is born of a Jewish father, they can still be considered part-Jewish, because "Jewish" is a race. Albeit a varied race, so you can get technical and reffer to them as Ashkenazis or watever.
But the Jewish nation is not based on "race."
Ahh what world are you looking at? Jewish is an ethnicity like Arab. Maybe the original Jewish roots began as a multi-racial tribe, through secluded breeding Jews created a sub-ethnicity known around the world. We are Semites above all.
It defines it? What defines what? This was not decipherable.
Tradition does not define DNA.
Human definitions, in my eyes, are worthless.
But when you said You can only be classifed into these categories if you have a Jewish parent, aka share a similar DNA
THAT was a human definition that you arbitrarily decided on. You are being inconsistent. You allow for your own human definitions, but not the ones you don't like. In any event, the definition of the Jewish people as defined by matrilineal descent is from the Torah.
I'll rephrase. Human definition is worthless, scientific definition is not.
You yourself acknowledge he's a non-Jew by calling him a gentile! But there is nothing wrong with being a gentile. Especially if one is a righteous gentile and helps the Jewish people or supports Israel, that is a great thing! But that doesn't make a person Jewish.
Well I call him a gentile so you can relate, replace gentile with "white European" for example and then you will get what I'm saying. I believe being Jewish is through race, that's our argument I suppose.
MERE tradition? I notice now that since you have run out of arguments as to why you think you can replace tradition, instead you now belittle tradition itself (much like the reformists). "Mere" tradition is based on our Divine revelation received at Sinai thousands of years ago. You do not negate that because you feel like it. That is arbitrary.
I mean mere tradition compared to science. Tradition begins at a time where people don't have the same knowledge we do.
So what? What bearing does this have on whether membership in a nation is based on father or mother?
I'm explaining some reasons why this tradition came to exist. And why we can change it with newer understanding and knowledge.
You're basically arguing that being Jewish is not an ethnicity, that anyone can be a Jew as long as they either convert or have a mother who identifies as a Jew.
But then-
1. There can be no anti-semites, since Jews can be anything, not just Semites.
2. Jews don't have a claim to Israel, since there's no proof that they are even related to the original tribe. One can argue that Israel simply belongs to people who practice Judaism, but that's would debunk the argument that the land once belonged to Israeli-Jews some thousand years ago.
3. Debunks the fact that Jews are a seperate ethnicity to gentiles. So the fact that we have Goldbergs, Brodskys and Steinbergs with similar facial features, happening to be Jews, is a pure coincidence.
4. People with a Jewish father are "goy".
5. Debunks the fact that people with Ashkenazi parents can benefit from the Ashkenazi intelligence. Albeit can sound supremacist, it's been proven time and time again. Most child prodigies are Ashkenazi, the group with the highest IQ in Israel are Eastern European Ashkenazis, who also hold most power, 8/10 celebrated Jewish minds belong to Ashkenazis, 80% of Jewish billionaires are Ashkenazi etc,. All this due to selective breeding of Jews who suffered pogroms and discrimination. So you see, anyone who is an Ashkenazi is a relative of the Jews of Europe.
If you want to shatter my definition of a Jew, you must seperate Ashkenazis from Jews, Sephardis from Jews and Mizrahi of Jews whom btw, all share a similar genetic trait linked back to ancient Israel (one of my arguments supporting Jewish owndership of Israel).
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And LISTEN everyone who is reading this. I am of the belief that only a Jewish mother can produce Jewish children. It is not genetic in any sense.
It is difficult for me to have this belief, it is not as easy as everyone thinks. I have to personally disown my own brothers children, who survived him after his death on 9/11. It is sad for me, so hard to believe... But this is the fact in this world. I do not believe this life is meant to be easy. Everyone makes mistakes in his or her life, but I cannot accept my brothers children as Jewish. My brother married a non-Jew and therefore both of his kids are not Jews. In the eight years since his death I have never met these children. My deep wish is that some day they will seek me in order to learn of their fathers childhood faith. My mother, their grandma, has tried to instill some Jewish identity in them... But I have told her that they would need to convert in order to be recognized as a Jew.
I am not making the rules. I am just living them.
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Axel,
What is your argument? You want to talk about genetics? Or do you want to talk about who a Jew is?
Genetics is passed through both parents... There is no argument there...
But who is a Jew? That is not negotiable.
Israel is the land promised to the Jews... Not just those whose genetics are traced back. We believe that all Jews have some original Jewish blood. But we also have a strong belief in the Jewish soul.
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You obviously mock the Jewish religion. The Oral law has been quoted to you yet you insist on seeing it in the written Torah. Don't you realize that there are two parts to the revelation at Sinai? I am not going to get into heretical arguments here.
The Jewish law, not just tradition, is that Judaism is the trait passed through the mother. You don't want to believe so you are trying to mock the Jewish religion. Just about everything in Written Torah doesn't make sense without the clarification of Oral law. I can give you many examples of this yet I think that you will not listen.
Will you argue that Torah sanctions Lesbian relationships? Don't you know that Written Torah doesn't expressly forbid this relationship? Only through Oral law which interprets the passage of "Not immitating the ways of the Mitzrim" as commanding no woman to woman sexual relationships... I will leave it with this simple example of Oral law explaining the written law. If you don't accept Judaism then there is nothing more I will explain to you.
I'm not mocking it, I'll tell you right now I don't know much about it. I was raised in a secular Jewish family who gave up most of their beliefs during the 100 year communist revolution.
What you say about Lesbians for example, well why wouldn't I argue this? I don't mean to offend anyone here, but if I was a leftist arguing for gay rights, my first tactic would be to point out that nowhere does the holy book denounce homosexuality, it would then be your duty to prove the evidence against that.
So all I'm asking is where it's a golden rule that you are not a Jew if your mother is a non-Jew.
I'm against people with Jewish fathers feeling left out because of this tradition which says only through the mother. Sure they can convert, but they would always see themselves as converts and not relatives of Abraham.
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This guy Axel is very suspicious. Look at his comments over in the Klansman thread.
What about it? I'm against a woman betraying her lover, just because of his slightly murky past.
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You obviously mock the Jewish religion. The Oral law has been quoted to you yet you insist on seeing it in the written Torah. Don't you realize that there are two parts to the revelation at Sinai? I am not going to get into heretical arguments here.
The Jewish law, not just tradition, is that Judaism is the trait passed through the mother. You don't want to believe so you are trying to mock the Jewish religion. Just about everything in Written Torah doesn't make sense without the clarification of Oral law. I can give you many examples of this yet I think that you will not listen.
Will you argue that Torah sanctions Lesbian relationships? Don't you know that Written Torah doesn't expressly forbid this relationship? Only through Oral law which interprets the passage of "Not immitating the ways of the Mitzrim" as commanding no woman to woman sexual relationships... I will leave it with this simple example of Oral law explaining the written law. If you don't accept Judaism then there is nothing more I will explain to you.
I'm not mocking it, I'll tell you right now I don't know much about it. I was raised in a secular Jewish family who gave up most of their beliefs during the 100 year communist revolution.
What you say about Lesbians for example, well why wouldn't I argue this? I don't mean to offend anyone here, but if I was a leftist arguing for gay rights, my first tactic would be to point out that nowhere does the holy book denounce homosexuality, it would then be your duty to prove the evidence against that.
So all I'm asking is where it's a golden rule that you are not a Jew if your mother is a non-Jew.
I'm against people with Jewish fathers feeling left out because of this tradition which says only through the mother. Sure they can convert, but they would always see themselves as converts and not relatives of Abraham.
The issue is that there is something special about marrying within your own people. The Torah which has kept the Jewish people a people for 1000s of years has told us men to only marry Jewish women. This is because we then can have Jewish children. If there is no difference then why should we keep within our faith? As I have quoted several times, our L-rd has commanded us to remain loyal to him and 'not turn astray'. It has been shown that Jews brought up in mixed-religion marriages often do not carry on the religion, leading to total assimiliation within 2 generations. The Jewish nation has the vision of the future where all Jews will gather in Israel and witness the coming of the Moshiach.
I don't expect a Jew from Russia to understand. I was just explaining this to a friend the other night about how I don't hold a Russian member of my synagogue to a high standard of religion because he grew up in Soviet Union. They were brutal to all religions and especially to the Jews.
Please try to learn about the Jewish faith if you find it in yourself. We have a long, hard, but great story and a future which can be glorious.
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Axel,
What is your argument?
My argument is that being Jewish is an ethnicity. We are a certain Semitic group that is labelled as the Jewish people, the descendants of Abraham.
Someone who happens to have a White mother and a Semitic Jewish father, is therefore half-Jewish, something Orthodox Jews don't believe in.
I will also admit that I believe a person with Jewish mother and White father is also half-Jewish.
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Axel,
What is your argument?
My argument is that being Jewish is an ethnicity. We are a certain Semitic group that is labelled as the Jewish people, the descendants of Abraham.
Someone who happens to have a White mother and a Semitic Jewish father, is therefore half-Jewish, something Orthodox Jews don't believe in.
I will also admit that I believe a person with Jewish mother and White father is also half-Jewish.
Ok, so these are your beliefs... As you admitted it is not the way of the Jewish people to decide like that...
It is established that the way to determine the religion of the child is through the mother. Personal beliefs are fine but they don't always reveal the truth.
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I don't expect a Jew from Russia to understand. I was just explaining this to a friend the other night about how I don't hold a Russian member of my synagogue to a high standard of religion because he grew up in Soviet Union. They were brutal to all religions and especially to the Jews.
Hey, there are lots of observant Jews who were born in Soviet Union, including myself :P
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Axel,
What is your argument?
My argument is that being Jewish is an ethnicity. We are a certain Semitic group that is labelled as the Jewish people, the descendants of Abraham.
Someone who happens to have a White mother and a Semitic Jewish father, is therefore half-Jewish, something Orthodox Jews don't believe in.
I will also admit that I believe a person with Jewish mother and White father is also half-Jewish.
So you are a.. racist :laugh:
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The issue is that there is something special about marrying within your own people. The Torah which has kept the Jewish people a people for 1000s of years has told us men to only marry Jewish women. This is because we then can have Jewish children. If there is no difference then why should we keep within our faith? As I have quoted several times, our L-rd has commanded us to remain loyal to him and 'not turn astray'.
I can understand that, but at the same time why cannot a Jewish man have a child with a Gentile woman and still have a child sypmathetic to his Jewish roots? it would make no difference, because as I said, I don't see any difference in a child being born of a mother and father.
For example, I am almost identical to my father in looks and everything.
Point is, why would a Jewish mother with a Gentile father be more faithful to the Jewish religion?
Sounds like nothing more than a way to keep the Jewish blood flowing, by encouraging Jewish men to marry Jewish women. Not a bad thing, but makes no difference if it's a father or mother.
It has been shown that Jews brought up in mixed-religion marriages often do not carry on the religion, leading to total assimiliation within 2 generations. The Jewish nation has the vision of the future where all Jews will gather in Israel and witness the coming of the Moshiach.
Which brings me back to the point, why would a Jewish mother and a Christian father make any difference if it was the other way around?
I don't expect a Jew from Russia to understand.
I understand, I just strongly disagree.
I was just explaining this to a friend the other night about how I don't hold a Russian member of my synagogue to a high standard of religion because he grew up in Soviet Union.
I really don't like the idea of Jews looking down on other Jews. This was common between German Jews and Eastern European Jews once, you know, before the holocaust. If we worked together we would be better off.
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So you are a.. racist :laugh:
...Please explain this logic to me?
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I don't expect a Jew from Russia to understand. I was just explaining this to a friend the other night about how I don't hold a Russian member of my synagogue to a high standard of religion because he grew up in Soviet Union. They were brutal to all religions and especially to the Jews.
Hey, there are lots of observant Jews who were born in Soviet Union, including myself :P
Ok, but it is not my experience... A good example is this: The other day while I was in the hallway talking with a friend about my Jewish appearance a Russian girl walked by and started talking to us. She was arguing against religion but she mentioned that her grandmother was Jewish. She was completely atheist and yet she may have been Jewish if she was her maternal grandmother... But I didn't ask because she quoted the soviet "Religion is the opiate of the masses" line to me and that religion was invented so man could have moral codes... I was trying to relate a story about a personal miracle but she was not impressed. I also worked with a Dimitry guy about eight years ago who was from Russia... He revealed to me that he was born Jewish but denied it throughout his life in Russia and he told me Jews were treated worse than blacks in America by the Russians. He told me he was embarassed to be Jewish and would not reveal it to others. It is these experiences I have with Russian Jews which disappoint me. I am glad my family left Ukraine in the early 1900s.... We missed so much of the pain my people experienced.
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It is established that the way to determine the religion of the child is through the mother. Personal beliefs are fine but they don't always reveal the truth.
My argument is also that the established way of determining the religion of the child is also a personal belief. 1) Because it appears to be an oral law made to benefit Jews of another time and 2) I believe in a semitic race known as Jews.
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It is established that the way to determine the religion of the child is through the mother. Personal beliefs are fine but they don't always reveal the truth.
My argument is also that the established way of determining the religion of the child is also a personal belief. 1) Because it appears to be an oral law made to benefit Jews of another time and 2) I believe in a semitic race known as Jews.
So you admit you are a racist?
This is not the definition of a Jew... We are not necessarily a semitic race. This is the Hitler theory and the Jewish people have never held like this.
I support the ability of a person to Convert. I know many righteous Jewish converts who are observing Torah as Orthodox members of my minyan. I recognize the conversions of my friends and some family members.
I do not believe that Torah was written for one particular time. That is also not a Jewish religious belief. Torah is written for all time, and is applicable in all times, and describes events which are happening right now. Your understanding seems so out of line with Jewish belief in Torah and our relationship with G-d.
I will be going to bed soon... It is 1AM here. I hope that things work out for you...
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So you are a.. racist :laugh:
...Please explain this logic to me?
It's a joke. You judge who's Jewish by ethnicity, use blood-count ("Half-Jewish"), refer to race ("White father"). All these methods have nothing to do with Judaism.
But of course I don't mean you are a KKK-style racist.
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He revealed to me that he was born Jewish but denied it throughout his life in Russia and he told me Jews were treated worse than blacks in America by the Russians. He told me he was embarassed to be Jewish and would not reveal it to others. It is these experiences I have with Russian Jews which disappoint me. I am glad my family left Ukraine in the early 1900s...
Yes this is true, my father who grew up as a Jew in the Ukraine was constantly attacked by gangs because of his Jewish ethnicity, he was a semi-practicing Jew btw, the type that wore no Kippas and went to church only during special occasions. He said how one day his teacher told the class that he was Jewish, since then he was always getting into fights.
Jews without a strong faith and empowerment therefore are VERY likely to become self-hating. Hating their ethnicity for attracting so much hate to them. It's natural.
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It's a joke. You judge who's Jewish by ethnicity, use blood-count ("Half-Jewish"), refer to race ("White father"). All these methods have nothing to do with Judaism.
But of course I don't mean you are a KKK-style racist.
Hmm, well I believe that Jews are an ethnicity.
E.g, I believe an African that mixes with a European will have a half-Black half-European child, no matter if the African is the mother or the father.
I will admit tho, I don't strongly believe in race, think we are all related somewhat and think racism is silly. But having such a passive attitude would get us wiped out by actual racists.
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I don't expect a Jew from Russia to understand. I was just explaining this to a friend the other night about how I don't hold a Russian member of my synagogue to a high standard of religion because he grew up in Soviet Union. They were brutal to all religions and especially to the Jews.
Hey, there are lots of observant Jews who were born in Soviet Union, including myself :P
Ok, but it is not my experience... A good example is this: The other day while I was in the hallway talking with a friend about my Jewish appearance a Russian girl walked by and started talking to us. She was arguing against religion but she mentioned that her grandmother was Jewish. She was completely atheist and yet she may have been Jewish if she was her maternal grandmother... But I didn't ask because she quoted the soviet "Religion is the opiate of the masses" line to me and that religion was invented so man could have moral codes... I was trying to relate a story about a personal miracle but she was not impressed. I also worked with a Dimitry guy about eight years ago who was from Russia... He revealed to me that he was born Jewish but denied it throughout his life in Russia and he told me Jews were treated worse than blacks in America by the Russians. He told me he was embarassed to be Jewish and would not reveal it to others. It is these experiences I have with Russian Jews which disappoint me. I am glad my family left Ukraine in the early 1900s.... We missed so much of the pain my people experienced.
You are right, because of evil Communist oppression most Russian Jews are assimilated and brainwashed. But today there are lots of Jews who returned to the Creator in Israel. There were also heroic people who remained observant in Soviet Union, among them a prominent Rabbi Yitzchok Zilber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzchok_Zilber
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Hi, nice to have you.
I am born a Jew by my mom, my mom's family are crypto-Marrano from Portugal. I was never really practicing until a few years back. My Dad is a WASP & Iroquois, so that is proof that people should marry themselves.
I am a little more open than most people regarding Judaism and Christianty-etc. I've had NO choice in this world of Jew-hatred.
I am glad that you joined. Its not easy to put ones-self in our shoes, and when people support and join, it makes me happy, because NOBODY speaks for right-wing Jews- they certainly are NOT in office and do NOT represent US.
Glad that you are here, and I hope that you become closer to G-d, and see whats really happening in this place they now call America :'(
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I'm a non-denominational Christian. I live in Texas and I'm of German/Irish/Scottish/English descent.
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100% Jewish! :dance: I was raised in a Kahanist household.
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I am not Jewish, but I suspect I have ancestors that were..
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Mitochondrial DNA is passed down by the mother. But that's niether here nor there. A chinese baby adopted into Jewish houshold who goes through a proper conversion is a Jew. Despite being genetically dissimal from her parents. Being and becoming a Jew is a spiritual thing. Part of the rule in the Torah is that the mother has to be Jewish. Agree or disagree. This is how it is. If you don't get it ask an orthodox rabbi to explain it better
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No, Hasidism goes back only about 300 years tops.
That's my point, it was a tradition invented by Jews not long ago. Does this then mean that a non-Hasidic Jew is not Jewish? no. The mother tradition just happens to be older and more ingrained.
This is nonsensical. Jewish law is more than just "tradition." There is no Jewish law or halacha that says "Thou must be a hasidic Jew." And no one thinks that being a Jew is defined by being a hasid. That is ludicrous. Another thing you just made up. But everyone DOES define being a Jew by having a Jewish mother. Everyone always accepted this was Jewish law. Until reform came along and said we want to expand our congregation membership base.
There is a halacha that Jewish descent goes through the mother. That is Jewish law, not just tradition. And it was not "invented" in the sense that hasidism was "invented." You are really grasping for straws with these diversionary arguments.
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You just made this up. There are more than those 3 groups, but either way, that it is based on "one parent" is something you arbitrarily thought up.
Sure, there could be more. Can you name some of these groups? I mean, ethnicities that define a person as Jewish?
Well that's a misleading question. The ETHNICITIES do not DEFINE the person as Jewish. That again is your invention. It is that they are descended matrilineally through the Tribes of Yaakov that defines the people as Jewish. It just so happens that their ETHNICITIES, ie, race, are of certain types that are different from each other and still they are Jewish because of their matrilineal descent. Imagine that. That is just proof that race has nothing to do with it. That is why you have Ashkenazi communities that look very different from Sephardic communities and yet both are fully Jewish. Because facial characteristics and skin color have nothing to do with whether someone is Jewish or not. And there are other "ethnic" groups that are Jews as well. There are Romaniot Jews, Yemenite Jews, Ethiopian Jews and these all look completely distinct from the aforementioned groups. You really display your ignorance on your sleeve here.
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1. There can be no anti-semites, since Jews can be anything, not just Semites.
"Antisemites" is just a word that people came up with a few hundred years ago to describe Jew hatred. It really never meant Arabs or other nonJewish middle eastern people, so I can see you have no point here. It is not true that Jews are not semites because originally the Tribes of Yaakov were all Semitic and middle eastern. So anyone who joins the nation, even if they themselves do not start off as "racially" semitic, they have attached themselves to a nation that ORIGINATED as semitic. Get it now? That means that a whole community can look white as snow or completely african dark black and yet they might be Jewish if they converted or if their descent is traced back over the centuries as a Jewish population with Jewish mothers and continuing line of Jewish women.
You really have some obsession with anti-semites and anachronisms.
If there are no antisemites that's a big blessing. But unfortunately they are. If you think the term describing them would be more accurate as "Jew hater" that's fine. It's not a precise term and it's not one I made up. It's just become a common term that everyone is familiar with because it was used to describe a certain phenomenon that was found rampant in society at the time.
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What about it? I'm against a woman betraying her lover, just because of his slightly murky past.
It's obvious that you are a troll. I think you are most likely a WN, what with your obsession with Jews being a "race" and your defense of a wanted Klansman who was hiding out in Israel. Give us all a break. We may be "subhumans" in your eyes but we're not stupid.
Just for the record--I actually agree with you that the woman in question is a piece of filth (to put out for this American illegal-immigrant sleazeball she just met), but the idea that you would have any sympathy whatsoever in your heart for a Nazi butcher simply merits no words. I hope that both he and his Israeli leftist shackjob slut get osteosarcoma soon.
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It is determined by the mother or conversion. Nothing else.
This might be religion, I'm talking about race. If a person is born of a Jewish father, they can still be considered part-Jewish, because "Jewish" is a race. Albeit a varied race, so you can get technical and reffer to them as Ashkenazis or watever.
Yes, you are talking about race. But no, "Jewish" is not a race. You only want it to be. Sorry.
Tradition does not define DNA.
Who said it does? DNA is just not relevant to the discussion of whether someone is a Jew or not. We have specific guidelines for joining our nation or being a member. Meet the criteria or find something else. It's not personal, bud.
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And LISTEN everyone who is reading this. I am of the belief that only a Jewish mother can produce Jewish children. It is not genetic in any sense.
It is difficult for me to have this belief, it is not as easy as everyone thinks. I have to personally disown my own brothers children, who survived him after his death on 9/11. It is sad for me, so hard to believe... But this is the fact in this world. I do not believe this life is meant to be easy. Everyone makes mistakes in his or her life, but I cannot accept my brothers children as Jewish. My brother married a non-Jew and therefore both of his kids are not Jews. In the eight years since his death I have never met these children. My deep wish is that some day they will seek me in order to learn of their fathers childhood faith. My mother, their grandma, has tried to instill some Jewish identity in them... But I have told her that they would need to convert in order to be recognized as a Jew.
I am not making the rules. I am just living them.
Hey bro, that's a tough thing to go through. You probably didn't mean the word "disown." You obviously don't really have to disown them (or am I wrong?), you can just love them as gentiles that they are. But I'm sure that's what you meant.
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I agree with KWRBT, I don't see why disowning them is necessary.
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I'm against people with Jewish fathers feeling left out because of this tradition which says only through the mother. Sure they can convert, but they would always see themselves as converts and not relatives of Abraham.
I think that your problem is that you somehow think this is a blemish on a person for not being born Jewish. It simply isn't. Neither is being a convert. In fact, quite the opposite. Judaism holds the convert in high esteem, sometimes higher than the born-Jew. I know it can be hard for someone to realize if they are in the situation and somehow imagine themselves to be Jewish when they aren't, but the fact is that there is nothing wrong with being a gentile, if they are in fact a gentile! You should not denigrate that or gentiles in general. And I think if a person has such feelings as yours, they are not ready to convert because they need to learn to respect gentiles first and not have a superiority complex about them when they become Jewish.
If the person wants to join up, let him convert. There's nothing "left out" about it. If a person converts, it is something to be proud of.
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Someone who happens to have a White mother and a Semitic Jewish father, is therefore half-Jewish, something Orthodox Jews don't believe in.
But that doesn't make any sense. It is about the national origin. Originally, we were a semitic people. Many "semitics" today as you call them, ie women, men descended from Avraham, can look completely white or completely African or completely something else not Semitic. There is no sense in using modern day racial and anthropological terms to define a nation that has never defined itself as such. To say it's a "white mother" and "semitic Jewish father" is nonsensical. If the father is middle Eastern looking, that does not make him Jewish. The Arabs are descended from Avraham's son Ishmael. They are not Jewish. No one has ever claimed that all descendents of Avraham are Jewish.... Until you did. You're the first person in Jewish history to claim it.
And if the mother is "white" that does not make her non-Jewish. Since large groups of Jews ended up in Western and Eastern Europe, a whole slew of our population looks similar to Europeans today. That does not mean they are not Jewish. Ashkenazi Jews are Jewish.
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Kahane Was Right, I think you are wasting your time with this [censored]. He is probably a Stormfronter.
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Axel is actually referring to a whole different group than the Jewish nation. You define a group that is determined by DNA. Maybe you can elaborate further about your rules ? I mean does a practicing Christian with a Jewish father counts as a member ? Do you accept a convert to Judaism as a member ? Must any candidate go through a formal DNA test in an official lab to validate his claim ?
Anyway, while technically there is an overlap between Axel's group and the Jews, one is a mere classification of origin, the other is a religionation.
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The issue is that there is something special about marrying within your own people. The Torah which has kept the Jewish people a people for 1000s of years has told us men to only marry Jewish women. This is because we then can have Jewish children. If there is no difference then why should we keep within our faith? As I have quoted several times, our L-rd has commanded us to remain loyal to him and 'not turn astray'.
I can understand that, but at the same time why cannot a Jewish man have a child with a Gentile woman and still have a child sypmathetic to his Jewish roots?
He can be plenty sympathetic to his Jewish roots, but that does not make him Jewish . This is what I had said before. A person can feel they are Jewish all they want, but that does not make the person Jewish. They can be a righteous gentile and even help Israel or even go there, but that does not make them Jewish.
Sounds like nothing more than a way to keep the Jewish blood flowing, by encouraging Jewish men to marry Jewish women. Not a bad thing, but makes no difference if it's a father or mother.
You have creative theories, but if that were so, it wouldn't have singled out the Jewish mother. Yet, it did.
It has been shown that Jews brought up in mixed-religion marriages often do not carry on the religion, leading to total assimiliation within 2 generations. The Jewish nation has the vision of the future where all Jews will gather in Israel and witness the coming of the Moshiach.
Which brings me back to the point, why would a Jewish mother and a Christian father make any difference if it was the other way around?
Because what Muman was saying here isn't exactly on point. It is not merely a question of "will the kid identify" or "will the kid carry on the religion." It's an existential question. Is the kid JEWISH to begin with? And that is determined by the mother. Then once that is out of the way, you can ask the question, with a gentile father, will the kid really carry on the Jewish tradition. And the answer to that question is very obvious, and exactly why intermarriage is forbidden, even for a women. It just so happens that the child she has through intermarriage is still Jewish. Not a guarantee that he will be religious or identify as such. The soul of the child is Jewish, and that is passed through the mother. Nothing to do with dna or genetics, and nothing to do with how he'll end up.
I really don't like the idea of Jews looking down on other Jews. This was common between German Jews and Eastern European Jews once, you know, before the holocaust. If we worked together we would be better off.
I agree with you here. Even in the US, when immigrants were first coming in, the German Jews had a superiority complex over the Eastern European masses of Russian Jews who came after them. I agree with you that this type of division is poisonous.
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I'm explaining some reasons why this tradition came to exist. And why we can change it with newer understanding and knowledge.
You're basically arguing that being Jewish is not an ethnicity, that anyone can be a Jew as long as they either convert or have a mother who identifies as a Jew.
But then-
2. Jews don't have a claim to Israel, since there's no proof that they are even related to the original tribe. One can argue that Israel simply belongs to people who practice Judaism, but that's would debunk the argument that the land once belonged to Israeli-Jews some thousand years ago.
This is not true that there would be no claim to Israel. We are the same people who the Romans threw out, and the same people who have been praying to return for 2000 years. This actually reflects the weakness in your racial theories of Jewish continuation. Because only through the Jewish religion does anyone have any clue that they are descended from Jews. If a Jew became completely secular or married out, and did not keep some kind of tradition (Marranos did keep tradition of being Jews btw), that the family was Jewish, they were lost to the Jewish people forever. And perhaps some of their descendents are technically Jewish with a Jewish mother, but they become diluted out if they a. don't know and b. don't practice.
Your dad being observant in Soviet Union was a continuation of prior generations of the Jewish people. That is how you know because he was raised as a Jew and lived as one. If people don't, they never passed on any connection no matter what they look like or what they feel like.
3. Debunks the fact that Jews are a seperate ethnicity to gentiles.
Yes exactly. That is why racists are so wrong to attack Jews. We are not a separate "ethnicity." Gentiles also can perhaps be descended from Avraham and even have middle eastern facial features and skin tones. So what? Jewish nation is defined by something else and they were wrong on many levels for racially hating us. Because we weren't really a "race." We originally were Semitic but we moved around all over the place and intermingled... That is the whole point. It is the Jewish religion that kept us as a nation distinct from others. Not race.
So the fact that we have Goldbergs, Brodskys and Steinbergs with similar facial features, happening to be Jews, is a pure coincidence.
Right because the Goldbergs look so much like Yemenite Jews and Ethiopians right.
BTW another group I forgot to mention was Indian Jews. There were certain small populations of Jewish people in India that traced their ancestry back to at least Second Temple period. And guess what? They and their descendents look like Indians!
4. People with a Jewish father are "goy".
As I said before, you should not denigrate goyim. Neither should any Jews denigrate them. Judaism does NOT teach us to do that. There is nothing wrong with being born a goy. That is the way G-d made a person, so be it. They can be righteous like any person can be.
5. Debunks the fact that people with Ashkenazi parents can benefit from the Ashkenazi intelligence. Albeit can sound supremacist, it's been proven time and time again.
I don't believe in eugenics. I have seen some of the supposed "evidence" and I don't buy it.
Yes, many Jews have won nobel prizes. Jews are smart. Part of that is genetics but a big part of it is upbringing. People who are raised to be competitive, intellectually developed, and given a quality education can achieve such things.
Most child prodigies are Ashkenazi, the group with the highest IQ in Israel are Eastern European Ashkenazis, who also hold most power,
Part of this is because when the Sefaradim came, the Ashkenazi majority that was already in power before they arrived, made sure that 1. Sefaradim would not get proper education, 2. Sefaradim would not gain political ascendancy or any power over the elite already running the show, 3. they tried to create a criminal underclass out of Sefaradim. Among other reasons. You clearly do not understand the persecution that Sefaradim went through when they arrived in Israel. Ben Gurion and his minions were behind these disgusting efforts.
If you want to shatter my definition of a Jew, you must seperate Ashkenazis from Jews, Sephardis from Jews and Mizrahi of Jews whom btw, all share a similar genetic trait linked back to ancient Israel (one of my arguments supporting Jewish owndership of Israel).
Why would I need to do that? Even by my definition, the Torah's definition of who is a Jew, there would be common ancestry involved. But those genetic studies are very flimsy if you know anything about genetics. I don't put too much stock into it. You can have genetic linkage between many variant groups of people because ultimately all humans are connected by DNA and genetics. What's the big deal about that?
When the zionist movement emerged, it wasn't based on complicated dna testing and scientific studies. We were justified then, and we are justified now.
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I'm not Jewish.
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Question:
We have established that a Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother or someone who converts appropriately to the religion.
Now if someone was one of those two, what would have to happen for him to no longer be a Jew? Meaning, if he/she has offspring and those offspring had to convert to Judaism...
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Axel. What do you mean by part Jewish. You are either a Jew or not.
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Axel. What do you mean by part Jewish. You are either a Jew or not.
He means Jewish ancestry or relatives. I think.
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Yes, you are talking about race. But no, "Jewish" is not a race. You only want it to be. Sorry.
That's why it goes by the mother huh? *rolls eyes*
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Question:
We have established that a Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother or someone who converts appropriately to the religion.
Answer me this; does a Jew have more say in who's a Jew than gentiles?
Example, a WASP has a child with a Jewish woman. Jews will then claim the child as their own, but what about the childs other side of the family?
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Axel. What do you mean by part Jewish. You are either a Jew or not.
He means Jewish ancestry or relatives. I think.
Exactly.
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I think many Jews here misunderstand what I'm saying. I understand that as I'm practically questioning your religion. But I'm not questioning anything that's sacred, or comes from the words of god, this is just as far as I know, oral tradition.
I don't see any reason why a mother is worth more than a father. How, in any shape or form, does a child become MORE Jewish by having a Jewish mother than father apart from being defined by this so called oral tradition?
Therefore Jews have to acknowledge that they are themselves saying who is a Jew and who is not, and thus such a rule can be changed.
And for those that don't think being Jewish has to do with race;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
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You Axel will believe only what you want to believe... Many, myself included, have explained to you that Oral law is equal to Written law and it is derived from Scripture. The rational for the law is sound and it is established. Your desire to change it is noted, but doesn't change anything...
Judaism is not a genetic issue. It is passed through the mother.
I think many Jews here misunderstand what I'm saying. I understand that as I'm practically questioning your religion. But I'm not questioning anything that's sacred, or comes from the words of G-d, this is just as far as I know, oral tradition.
I don't see any reason why a mother is worth more than a father. How, in any shape or form, does a child become MORE Jewish by having a Jewish mother than father apart from being defined by this so called oral tradition?
Therefore Jews have to acknowledge that they are themselves saying who is a Jew and who is not, and thus such a rule can be changed.
And for those that don't think being Jewish has to do with race;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
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I think many Jews here misunderstand what I'm saying. I understand that as I'm practically questioning your religion. But I'm not questioning anything that's sacred, or comes from the words of G-d, this is just as far as I know, oral tradition.
I don't see any reason why a mother is worth more than a father. How, in any shape or form, does a child become MORE Jewish by having a Jewish mother than father apart from being defined by this so called oral tradition?
Therefore Jews have to acknowledge that they are themselves saying who is a Jew and who is not, and thus such a rule can be changed.
And for those that don't think being Jewish has to do with race;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
Why do you people come to these boards? IT IS OBVIOUS you DONT LIKE Jewish people, so WHY come here? Get lost, go commit suicide.
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I think many Jews here misunderstand what I'm saying. I understand that as I'm practically questioning your religion. But I'm not questioning anything that's sacred, or comes from the words of G-d, this is just as far as I know, oral tradition.
I don't see any reason why a mother is worth more than a father. How, in any shape or form, does a child become MORE Jewish by having a Jewish mother than father apart from being defined by this so called oral tradition?
Therefore Jews have to acknowledge that they are themselves saying who is a Jew and who is not, and thus such a rule can be changed.
And for those that don't think being Jewish has to do with race;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
Why do you people come to these boards? IT IS OBVIOUS you DONT LIKE Jewish people, so WHY come here? Get lost, go commit suicide.
I don't think that he doesn't like us. I think he is curious about Judaism, and maybe he should visit a religious site, because JTF is a political organization.
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Are you joking?
Why would I be joking? You claim that the Torah says that Jews must go by the mother, I'm asking for proof for this claim. Not text observing the Torah, but an actual rule that says Jews MUST go by mother and mother only.
I believe that you are a super self-hating Jewess.
You are all over the map, here an on other forums as well.
You need to go and REPENT and tell G-d that you are sorry.
I believe in my heart, that you have brought much grief to your brothers and sisters and have a Nazi mentality.
I dont know you, but this is what is coming to my heart as I am typing.
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I believe that you are a super self-hating Jewess.
What? I already said, I'm a Jew who grew up in a secular family. I'm as of now agnostic.
My experience with anti-semitism therefore always had to do with race, not religion.
There must be a reason for that so I spent a lot of time studying that, learning about the Jewish ethnicity and fighting anti-semitism on a racial level.
What annoys me in particular is how religious Jews disown Jews who just happen to have a gentile mother, but now Jews who happen to have a gentile father.
This is ridiculous on all levels to someone who hasn't been indoctorined by the beliefs of religious views. If it was sacred law, I'd understand, but not a single Jew here has been able to cite me anything that clearly stated this rule.
As far as I know, it's something Jews just instinctively know based on tradition and oral law which no one has yet cited to me either.
This just doesn't hold up in this argument, basically saying "the law said so, therefore this is how it is".
The only way I can be disproven now is to prove that Jewishness is not a race, this would therefore revoke any idea of Jews being related to Abraham, Moses, Jesus or the tribes of Judah. It would also make the idea of anti-semitism, fiction.
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I believe that you are a super self-hating Jewess.
What? I already said, I'm a Jew who grew up in a secular family. I'm as of now agnostic.
My experience with anti-semitism therefore always had to do with race, not religion.
There must be a reason for that so I spent a lot of time studying that, learning about the Jewish ethnicity and fighting anti-semitism on a racial level.
What annoys me in particular is how religious Jews disown Jews who just happen to have a gentile mother, but now Jews who happen to have a gentile father.
This is ridiculous on all levels to someone who hasn't been indoctorined by the beliefs of religious views. If it was sacred law, I'd understand, but not a single Jew here has been able to cite me anything that clearly stated this rule.
As far as I know, it's something Jews just instinctively know based on tradition and oral law which no one has yet cited to me either.
This just doesn't hold up in this argument, basically saying "the law said so, therefore this is how it is".
The only way I can be proven now is to prove that Jewishness is not a race, this would therefore revoke any idea of Jews being related to Abraham, Moses, Jesus or the tribes of Judah. It would also make the idea of anti-semitism, fiction.
http://www.chabad.org/asktherabbi/default_cdo/jewish/Ask-the-Rabbi.htm
:dance:
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Another question; If I'm born a gentile and my mother converts, am I therefore a Jew by default?!
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I don't see any reason why a mother is worth more than a father.
You continue to make straw-man arguments. No one here said there is inherently more value in a mother or in a father. We all cherish both mothers and fathers. The question is through which one is the connection to the Jewish nation passed. It is passed through the mother. That does not denigrate fathers. The priestly class (kohanim) as well as the lineage of the monarchy (from King David) is patrilineal. And there too, it is not to devalue mothers, it is simply that they do not pass on that distinction in Jewish society. Only fathers do. Of course, you would argue that the son of a kohen woman should be kohen no matter if the father is or isn't, since just like everything else, kahuna (the priesthood) is "genetic" and a "race" of people that descend from Aaron. This is ludicrous. And again you would be the first person in Jewish history to claim such a thing.
How, in any shape or form, does a child become MORE Jewish by having a Jewish mother than father
It's not a case of more or less Jewish. It is either Jewish or not Jewish. We don't say 'hey you're less of a Jew because...." Someone is either a Jew or not a Jew. This is an existential question, not a value judgement. Someone with a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother is not "less" Jewish, he's not Jewish at all. He can be a fine gentile. Or if he wants he can convert. What makes it so hard for you to understand?
And for those that don't think being Jewish has to do with race;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
You quoted a wiki pedia article about Ashkenazi Jews. Can you tell us something about it so we know what point you are trying to make? This clearly does not support your claims. Was this to inform us that Ashkenazi Jews exist? Clearly we've gone over in this thread that they do, as do other groups, who together prove that genetics including racial features in the face and skin tone, do not determine whether someone is Jewish or not. Ashkenazi Jews prove MY point.
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I believe that you are a super self-hating Jewess.
My experience with anti-semitism therefore always had to do with race, not religion.
Originally it had to do with religion. Then when racial theories, Darwinism, eugenics, and other modern hate mechanisms developed post-enlightenment, the hatred was redirected into a racial format. This is a modern development that did not exist previously because theories of race, anthropology, sociology did not exist! What basically happened is that they found scientific language of the time to express their already existing hatred. Why you take their hatred at face value and assume it is on truthful terms is a reflection of ignorance of the historical development and ignorance of the facts. When racial hatred of Jews first developed, they did not have complicated DNA testing, in fact, they didn't even know what DNA was at that time or that it existed. So they weren't searching for Cohen genes and semitic genes and then labelling people based on that into groups. So you are basically taking the terms of modern discourse (the discourse of modern racists and neo-nazis hijacked from scientific generalities) and now superimposing them, not only as if they are true (which they aren't), but as if they apply to the course of history.
This is an anachronism. Throughout this thread you have failed to comprehend this.
There must be a reason for that so I spent a lot of time studying that
Again, you make the mistake of assuming that the antisemitism (of neo nazis and muslims) is based on a truthful foundation. That there is some "reason" that justifies it. It isn't based on truth though. Hate is by definition irrational. They will try to find any far-fetched explanation to justify and rationalize their behavior (and to sell their ideas and hatred to others) but that doesn't make it so. That doesn't make it true.
What annoys me in particular is how religious Jews disown Jews who just happen to have a gentile mother, but now Jews who happen to have a gentile father.
Disown? Are you serious? There is no such thing as "disowning a Jew who has a gentile mother" because that person is not a Jew in the first place. If he feels so "disowned" or disconnected and wants to join the Jewish people he can convert. If a person is a Jew, he is not disowned by other Jews (or at least shouldn't be). If a person is not a Jew, there is nothing to talk about. Again, I need to stress here to you, because you seem to not understand this, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A GENTILE! .
And I will repeat what I said before, a person who has your views, if he is thinking of converting, he is not ready to convert because he has to learn to respect gentiles first. You seem to think that any existence other than a Jewish one is worthless and to be denigrated. THIS is racist.
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This is ridiculous on all levels to someone who hasn't been indoctorined by the beliefs of religious views.
What's so ridiculous about it? What's ridiculous is to say that an anachronism of your own making is somehow applicable to a nation's descendency when all throughout history that nation has not used that definition, and who has a law system set up to actually determine how the nation continues. And that law system is not like you say it is.
If it was sacred law, I'd understand,
We've already told you that it is. All of halacha is sacred law. It is basically the body of law with which a Jew conducts his life in all facets. EVERY rabbi understands that Jewish law says a person born to a Jewish mother is Jewish, otherwise not.
As far as I know, it's something Jews just instinctively know based on tradition and oral law which no one has yet cited to me either.
Well, gee, that should cause someone to think, shouldn't it? 'Every Jew knows this instinctively based on tradition and oral law and yet for some reason I think I'm right and every other Jew in the world is wrong, including our own tradition, and our own oral Torah.' Please.
(Btw, oral law was written down about 1300 years ago, so it's not some old wives' tale, it's our entire body of Jewish texts)
And Muman has already cited several places. You just don't accept them. So why do you keep pretending as if you demand a citation and that will make your silly theories go away?
This just doesn't hold up in this argument, basically saying "the law said so, therefore this is how it is".
We have cited several places. Kiddushin 68b says it explicitly. That is the Talmud of Jewish law. We are not just saying it is therefore this is how it is. On the one hand you ask for citation, on the other hand you reject any citations as "Jewish law." Well, gee, don't you think "Jewish law" which is based on the Torah, would have something to say about who is Jewish and who is not?
Does American law determine who is American and who is not? Does Russian law determine who is Russian and who is not?
The only way I can be disproven now is to prove that Jewishness is not a race, this would therefore revoke any idea of Jews being related to Abraham, Moses, Jesus or the tribes of Judah.
Nonsensical. Judaism is not a race. We are a group of people descended matrilineally from the tribes of Yaakov. (Including a class of kohanim descended patrilineally from Aaron, etc). That is sufficient. Why do you need it to be a race?
It would also make the idea of anti-semitism, fiction.
Antisemitism, the explanations for it, the rationalizations, the attempted justifications, ARE all fiction. Why do you take them to be true.
What is true, is that a phenomenon in society exists whereby certain people have an innate hatred for Jews. This is commonly termed "antisemitism," which just means Jew-hatred. They will search for all hosts of excuses to justify their hatred, whether racial explanations, religious explanations, anti-zionist explanations, but they are all bunk. Usually hypocritical, often dishonest, and always based on a distortion of reality.
So yes, antisemitism is not a truthful thing. In that sense, it is a fiction. It is not justified. I realize this surprises you. But the phenomenon of certain people having a hatred for Jews does exist.
So what?
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As Rabbi Kahane used to say, we are a religio-nation.
That means, the Jewish people are not defined solely by "race" or "genetics" or even location (although we do have a land that is ours and strive to go back there). It is also not merely defined by "religion." You are not a Jew just by believing a certain thing. There are guidelines. We combine both aspects, religion and national affiliation, as our identity. And this is his understanding of the Torah. Not waxing poetic on some forum after reading a few wikipedia articles.
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Another question; If I'm born a gentile and my mother converts, am I therefore a Jew by default?!
No. You would need to convert yourself to be a Jew. Or you could just be happy being a gentile. It is always one's individual choice to make. But if you are born a non Jew, you cannot become a Jew by someone else converting. Even if it's your mother. This mother was not Jewish when she had you.
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No one here said there is inherently more value in a mother or in a father. We all cherish both mothers and fathers. The question is through which one is the connection to the Jewish nation passed. It is passed through the mother. That does not denigrate fathers. The priestly class (kohanim) as well as the lineage of the monarchy (from King David) is patrilineal.
But in a subtle way it puts more importance on the mother in the process of reproduction choice. If I'm to have a child with a gentile, my child would therefore be a gentile, my process in the whole thing is minimalized even tho by genetic logic, it doesn't make a difference. How does a faith get passed on by a mother moreso than a father?
Also, is King David therefore not a Jew???
You quoted a wiki pedia article about Ashkenazi Jews. Can you tell us something about it so we know what point you are trying to make? This clearly does not support your claims. Was this to inform us that Ashkenazi Jews exist? Clearly we've gone over in this thread that they do, as do other groups, who together prove that genetics including racial features in the face and skin tone, do not determine whether someone is Jewish or not. Ashkenazi Jews prove MY point.
Please tell me you're joking. Here I am arguing with you about the wether being Jewish is a genetic trait, and you don't see how that's relevant to an article about Jews being ethnicity defined by genetics? if you weren't a believer, I'd say some pretty derogatory things about now.
What is an Ashkenazi "Jew" then? and ethnicity happening to share the same noun as people of a religion described as "Judaism"?
Jew (j)
n.
1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.
Is that wrong? does having a Jewish father not make the child partially related to the ancient Hebrews?
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As Rabbi Kahane used to say, we are a religio-nation.
That means, the Jewish people are not defined solely by "race" or "genetics" or even location (although we do have a land that is ours and strive to go back there). It is also not merely defined by "religion." You are not a Jew just by believing a certain thing. There are guidelines. We combine both aspects, religion and national affiliation, as our identity. And this is his understanding of the Torah. Not waxing poetic on some forum after reading a few wikipedia articles.
So any Muslim who converts to Judaism therefore has a right to the land? I wonder if they thought of this yet...
What about all the idiot negroes from USA who call themselves the "real" Jews? should Israel let them all in?
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What's so ridiculous about it? What's ridiculous is to say that an anachronism of your own making is somehow applicable to a nation's descendency when all throughout history that nation has not used that definition, and who has a law system set up to actually determine how the nation continues. And that law system is not like you say it is.
You keep saying I'm making this all up, this is quite illogical on your part and makes you seem oblivious to the beliefs of 99% of the world, which I'm sure you are not.
We've already told you that it is. All of halacha is sacred law.
So can you quote me this halacha which talks about the mother law? and what makes this halacha holy?
And Muman has already cited several places. You just don't accept them. So why do you keep pretending as if you demand a citation and that will make your silly theories go away?
He cited me the words of Rabbis giving their two cents on "who is a Jew", I want the direct quote clearly stating this sacred law. I will also admit right now that it won't change my mind about Jews not being a race.
Does American law determine who is American and who is not? Does Russian law determine who is Russian and who is not?
Yes, but an American can become a Russian at will. A Jew cannot become a gentile no matter how hard he tries, unless he is a convert to begin with.
Nonsensical. Judaism is not a race. We are a group of people descended matrilineally from the tribes of Yaakov. (Including a class of kohanim descended patrilineally from Aaron, etc). That is sufficient. Why do you need it to be a race?
Well, replace race with ethnicity. Ethincally we are a sub-race known as the Hebrews. Who was the original Jew? an Arab? that's what we are then.
Why do you take them to be true.
Because nowhere in history have Jews came forward and said, "Hey gentiles, we are not a race, we are just people of the ____ race who choose to practice this religion".
So yes, antisemitism is not a truthful thing. In that sense, it is a fiction. It is not justified. I realize this surprises you. But the phenomenon of certain people having a hatred for Jews does exist.
I understand this, but I just want you to look at the term, anti-semite, if Jews attribute this to us we would have to be idiots not to know it means anti-people of the semitic race. It would then just be anti-Jew, like anti-Islam and anti-Christian.
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Originally it had to do with religion. Then when racial theories, Darwinism, eugenics, and other modern hate mechanisms developed post-enlightenment, the hatred was redirected into a racial format. This is a modern development that did not exist previously because theories of race, anthropology, sociology did not exist!
But don't you see, this in a way benefits my argument. As I already stated, people back then didn't know about genetics, which is more than likely what made them write the law of the mother. As several Jews on yahoo answers told me, you don't always know who the true father is, so this might be a reason for the original law. Unless you can later clarify the actual reasons for this law, I'm sticking to that belief.
Why you take their hatred at face value and assume it is on truthful terms is a reflection of ignorance of the historical development and ignorance of the facts. When racial hatred of Jews first developed, they did not have complicated DNA testing, in fact, they didn't even know what DNA was at that time or that it existed. So they weren't searching for Cohen genes and semitic genes and then labelling people based on that into groups. So you are basically taking the terms of modern discourse (the discourse of modern racists and neo-nazis hijacked from scientific generalities) and now superimposing them, not only as if they are true (which they aren't), but as if they apply to the course of history.
They still no doubt had some ideas about it and some stereotypes. How can we deny that the major percentage of Jews share certain traits which make them identifiable as Jews? My success for spotting Jews is about 80%, it's not even shocking to see a celebrity, think he's a Jew and see on wikipedia "born to a Jewish family in...". Also, Jews always made sure to marry other Jews, so this also had a big part in identification of Jews.
Disown? Are you serious? There is no such thing as "disowning a Jew who has a gentile mother" because that person is not a Jew in the first place. If he feels so "disowned" or disconnected and wants to join the Jewish people he can convert. If a person is a Jew, he is not disowned by other Jews (or at least shouldn't be). If a person is not a Jew, there is nothing to talk about. Again, I need to stress here to you, because you seem to not understand this, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A GENTILE! .
Well that's the general idea. For example, my friend with a Jewish father who I went to synagouge with once (my step-father was a semi-practicing Jew so took us a few times). People joked how to Jews he's a gentile and to gentiles he is a Jew, I wonder what impression that made on him even when he looked like a Jew, faced the same hatred Jews (of course as you pointed out not a justification) and had a Jewish father.
You seem to think that any existence other than a Jewish one is worthless and to be denigrated. THIS is racist.
Eh? I'm speaking about Rabbis and their views on fellow Jews... or Hebrews to be more specific.
The Jewish religion is the ONLY religion which is passed on through the parents (or specifically a mother for some reason). The ONLY religion that claims to be part of a certain tribe and the ONLY religion which where the idea is that we are the chosen people (something I don't believe). How can you be "chosen" if you can easily convert into the circle of the chosen people? how can you be related to the tribes of Yaakov if you're a Chinese convert and how can a mother pass on a religion better than the father other than due to a rule that I can't find an explanation for?
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I believe that you are a super self-hating Jewess.
What? I already said, I'm a Jew who grew up in a secular family. I'm as of now agnostic.
My experience with anti-semitism therefore always had to do with race, not religion.
There must be a reason for that so I spent a lot of time studying that, learning about the Jewish ethnicity and fighting anti-semitism on a racial level.
What annoys me in particular is how religious Jews disown Jews who just happen to have a gentile mother, but now Jews who happen to have a gentile father.
This is ridiculous on all levels to someone who hasn't been indoctorined by the beliefs of religious views. If it was sacred law, I'd understand, but not a single Jew here has been able to cite me anything that clearly stated this rule.
As far as I know, it's something Jews just instinctively know based on tradition and oral law which no one has yet cited to me either.
This just doesn't hold up in this argument, basically saying "the law said so, therefore this is how it is".
The only way I can be disproven now is to prove that Jewishness is not a race, this would therefore revoke any idea of Jews being related to Abraham, Moses, Jesus or the tribes of Judah. It would also make the idea of anti-semitism, fiction.
Nobody disowns a person born to a jewish father and gentile mother. That person, if he/she wishes to be Jewish needs to go through a proper conversion process...that's the rule.
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Another question; If I'm born a gentile and my mother converts, am I therefore a Jew by default?!
If before giving birth to you, your mother converted appropriately to Judaism, then when you are born you are a Jew by default. But if she converted after you were born, then you would have to convert too.
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No one here said there is inherently more value in a mother or in a father. We all cherish both mothers and fathers. The question is through which one is the connection to the Jewish nation passed. It is passed through the mother. That does not denigrate fathers. The priestly class (kohanim) as well as the lineage of the monarchy (from King David) is patrilineal.
But in a subtle way it puts more importance on the mother in the process of reproduction choice. If I'm to have a child with a gentile, my child would therefore be a gentile, my process in the whole thing is minimalized even tho by genetic logic, it doesn't make a difference. How does a faith get passed on by a mother moreso than a father?
Also, is King David therefore not a Jew???
You quoted a wiki pedia article about Ashkenazi Jews. Can you tell us something about it so we know what point you are trying to make? This clearly does not support your claims. Was this to inform us that Ashkenazi Jews exist? Clearly we've gone over in this thread that they do, as do other groups, who together prove that genetics including racial features in the face and skin tone, do not determine whether someone is Jewish or not. Ashkenazi Jews prove MY point.
Please tell me you're joking. Here I am arguing with you about the wether being Jewish is a genetic trait, and you don't see how that's relevant to an article about Jews being ethnicity defined by genetics? if you weren't a believer, I'd say some pretty derogatory things about now.
What is an Ashkenazi "Jew" then? and ethnicity happening to share the same noun as people of a religion described as "Judaism"?
Jew (j)
n.
1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.
Is that wrong? does having a Jewish father not make the child partially related to the ancient Hebrews?
Because the mother is much more involved in raising her children than the father is...
Secondly the concept of Ashkanazi Jews and Sephardic Jews describes the regions and traditions a certain Jew will come from. Ashkanazi Jews are of European decent while Sephardic Jews are of North African, Middle Eastern, Oriental decent.
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As Rabbi Kahane used to say, we are a religio-nation.
That means, the Jewish people are not defined solely by "race" or "genetics" or even location (although we do have a land that is ours and strive to go back there). It is also not merely defined by "religion." You are not a Jew just by believing a certain thing. There are guidelines. We combine both aspects, religion and national affiliation, as our identity. And this is his understanding of the Torah. Not waxing poetic on some forum after reading a few wikipedia articles.
So any Muslim who converts to Judaism therefore has a right to the land? I wonder if they thought of this yet...
What about all the idiot negroes from USA who call themselves the "real" Jews? should Israel let them all in?
Any gentile-Christian or Muslim-who genuinely wants to convert to Judaism can become a Jew.
Those idiot negroes that call themselves the Black Hebrews are nothing more than Gorillas that should be put back in their cage..No, they are not Jews nor HEbrews..they are Dung Heroes.
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Nonsensical. Judaism is not a race. We are a group of people descended matrilineally from the tribes of Yaakov. (Including a class of kohanim descended patrilineally from Aaron, etc). That is sufficient. Why do you need it to be a race?
Well, replace race with ethnicity. Ethincally we are a sub-race known as the Hebrews. Who was the original Jew? an Arab? that's what we are then.
Dude the Japanese are not Chinese just because they have slanted eyes...Jews are not Arabs...Jews originally came from the Middle east part of the world...But today, you have Jews that look different from each other....some white and fair skinned, others tan, and others black..some with slanty eyes...and then you have a bunch that are a mix of everything and convert...Explain how Jews are a race then...Jews all over the world for the most part genetically dissimilar from each other..your idea of them being a race is way off...maybe you don't konw the definition of the word "race"...
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Originally it had to do with religion. Then when racial theories, Darwinism, eugenics, and other modern hate mechanisms developed post-enlightenment, the hatred was redirected into a racial format. This is a modern development that did not exist previously because theories of race, anthropology, sociology did not exist!
But don't you see, this in a way benefits my argument. As I already stated, people back then didn't know about genetics, which is more than likely what made them write the law of the mother. As several Jews on yahoo answers told me, you don't always know who the true father is, so this might be a reason for the original law. Unless you can later clarify the actual reasons for this law, I'm sticking to that belief.
Why you take their hatred at face value and assume it is on truthful terms is a reflection of ignorance of the historical development and ignorance of the facts. When racial hatred of Jews first developed, they did not have complicated DNA testing, in fact, they didn't even know what DNA was at that time or that it existed. So they weren't searching for Cohen genes and semitic genes and then labelling people based on that into groups. So you are basically taking the terms of modern discourse (the discourse of modern racists and neo-nazis hijacked from scientific generalities) and now superimposing them, not only as if they are true (which they aren't), but as if they apply to the course of history.
They still no doubt had some ideas about it and some stereotypes. How can we deny that the major percentage of Jews share certain traits which make them identifiable as Jews? My success for spotting Jews is about 80%, it's not even shocking to see a celebrity, think he's a Jew and see on wikipedia "born to a Jewish family in...". Also, Jews always made sure to marry other Jews, so this also had a big part in identification of Jews.
Disown? Are you serious? There is no such thing as "disowning a Jew who has a gentile mother" because that person is not a Jew in the first place. If he feels so "disowned" or disconnected and wants to join the Jewish people he can convert. If a person is a Jew, he is not disowned by other Jews (or at least shouldn't be). If a person is not a Jew, there is nothing to talk about. Again, I need to stress here to you, because you seem to not understand this, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A GENTILE! .
Well that's the general idea. For example, my friend with a Jewish father who I went to synagouge with once (my step-father was a semi-practicing Jew so took us a few times). People joked how to Jews he's a gentile and to gentiles he is a Jew, I wonder what impression that made on him even when he looked like a Jew, faced the same hatred Jews (of course as you pointed out not a justification) and had a Jewish father.
You seem to think that any existence other than a Jewish one is worthless and to be denigrated. THIS is racist.
Eh? I'm speaking about Rabbis and their views on fellow Jews... or Hebrews to be more specific.
The Jewish religion is the ONLY religion which is passed on through the parents (or specifically a mother for some reason). The ONLY religion that claims to be part of a certain tribe and the ONLY religion which where the idea is that we are the chosen people (something I don't believe). How can you be "chosen" if you can easily convert into the circle of the chosen people? how can you be related to the tribes of Yaakov if you're a Chinese convert and how can a mother pass on a religion better than the father other than due to a rule that I can't find an explanation for?
It's not easy to convert to Judaism, buddy..
You are such an idiot after reading all your posts...you don't believe in this and you dont' believe in that..but you only believe what you right to you and therefore it is the golden rule for the whole world..you are nothing more than demented idiot...Learn to be more humble before you pass judgement...
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Axel, my nebbuch friend...
I have quoted for you explicit Talmudic references and Torah sources for the establishment of Matrilinear descent. All you have to do is go back a few pages to review this truth. Your rejection of Judaism is evident and you think you can make up laws as you like. This is not Jewish and it leads to the destruction of the Jewish people.
If you continue to argue about this I will just discount you as an apikoris and one who forfeits his place in olam haba... I am sorry you have so much anger at the Jewish religion and need to think of it in racial terms. This is a sad way to look at Hashems chosen nation. We don't need genetics to prove we merit the Holy Land. The promise made to Abraham was to all Jews, even those who joined the tribe...
Many righteous gentiles have converted to Judaism and they are considered as Abrahams children. If you read Genesis you learn that Abraham brought many people to believe in the One G-d of Israel.
Please talk to a competent Rabbi about these issues. May he have the patients of Abraham to bring you to understand the infinite Wisdom of the Jewish laws.
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Because the mother is much more involved in raising her children than the father is...
Are you speaking of personal experience?
Secondly the concept of Ashkanazi Jews and Sefardic Jews describes the regions and traditions a certain Jew will come from. Ashkanazi Jews are of European decent while Sefardic Jews are of North African, Middle Eastern, Oriental decent.
Yes, but they share a similar genetic trait for the most part. They just happen to be from different regions.
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Jews are not Arabs...Jews originally came from the Middle east part of the world...Explain how Jews are a race then..your idea of them being a race is way off...maybe you don't konw the definition of the word "race"...
In a way you answered your own question friend. I will however retract my use of the word "race" and replace it with "ethnicity".
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It's not easy to convert to Judaism, buddy..
Yes, it is not. Which brings me back to the story of my half-Jewish friend, who as a child felt disowned by the Jewish community because his mother was a gentile. As you said, not easy to convert, especially for a child. All because of a stupid law.
You are such an idiot after reading all your posts...you don't believe in this and you dont' believe in that..but you only believe what you right to you and therefore it is the golden rule for the whole world..you are nothing more than demented idiot...Learn to be more humble before you pass judgement...
This is exactly what you did by calling me a demented idiot. Passed judgment without being humble.
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It's not easy to convert to Judaism, buddy..
Yes, it is not. Which brings me back to the story of my half-Jewish friend, who as a child felt disowned by the Jewish community because his mother was a gentile. As you said, not easy to convert, especially for a child. All because of a stupid law.
You are such an idiot after reading all your posts...you don't believe in this and you dont' believe in that..but you only believe what you right to you and therefore it is the golden rule for the whole world..you are nothing more than demented idiot...Learn to be more humble before you pass judgement...
This is exactly what you did by calling me a demented idiot. Passed judgment without being humble.
Ban this smartass....he doesn't belong here and hates Jews and what Judaism stands for....
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I have quoted for you explicit Talmudic references and Torah sources for the establishment of Matrilinear descent. All you have to do is go back a few pages to review this truth. Your rejection of Judaism is evident and you think you can make up laws as you like. This is not Jewish and it leads to the destruction of the Jewish people.
Can you post the specific quote? polish the diamond so to speak.
How is anything I'm saying destructive? that we should accept people with Jewish fathers as Jews? if anything, keeping them out of our tribe is destructive. Especially when we are outnumbered by enemies 200 to 1. As I said there are only 14 million of us, who knows what great Jews and supporters went under the radar because they had a Jewish father and not a Jewish mother.
We don't need genetics to prove we merit the Holy Land. The promise made to Abraham was to all Jews, even those who joined the tribe...
Ok, so why not make this more clear to anti-semites? why make it a mother thing in the first place? why not be like Christians and allow anyone to join as long as they believe in the same principles?
Also, you detract from anything I'm saying here. I'm saying that gentiles with Jewish fathers have the EXACT same claim to Judaism as those born of Jewish mothers. Many revisionist Rabbis agree, shouldn't Jews question everything after all?
What benefit does this matriarchial law have to us... at all? what would happen if we change it? acknowledge that more Jews exist? how terrible.
I fight for the Hebrew people, not just those who believe in Judaism. I don't want a fellow Hebrew or half-Hebrew to get discriminated against for simply having a Jewish father, and not even get the support of his own people because of this law written by Jews a long time ago.
Speaking of destruction, if these laws were meant to protect us we wouldn't suffer so many pogroms.
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I have quoted for you explicit Talmudic references and Torah sources for the establishment of Matrilinear descent. All you have to do is go back a few pages to review this truth. Your rejection of Judaism is evident and you think you can make up laws as you like. This is not Jewish and it leads to the destruction of the Jewish people.
Can you post the specific quote? polish the diamond so to speak.
How is anything I'm saying destructive? that we should accept people with Jewish fathers as Jews? if anything, keeping them out of our tribe is destructive. Especially when we are outnumbered by enemies 200 to 1. As I said there are only 14 million of us, who knows what great Jews and supporters went under the radar because they had a Jewish father and not a Jewish mother.
We don't need genetics to prove we merit the Holy Land. The promise made to Abraham was to all Jews, even those who joined the tribe...
Ok, so why not make this more clear to anti-semites? why make it a mother thing in the first place? why not be like Christians and allow anyone to join as long as they believe in the same principles?
Also, you detract from anything I'm saying here. I'm saying that gentiles with Jewish fathers have the EXACT same claim to Judaism as those born of Jewish mothers. Many revisionist Rabbis agree, shouldn't Jews question everything after all?
What benefit does this matriarchial law have to us... at all? what would happen if we change it? acknowledge that more Jews exist? how terrible.
I fight for the Hebrew people, not just those who believe in Judaism. I don't want a fellow Hebrew or half-Hebrew to get discriminated against for simply having a Jewish father, and not even get the support of his own people because of this law written by Jews a long time ago.
Speaking of destruction, if these laws were meant to protect us we wouldn't suffer so many pogroms.
Axel, you don't belong here on this forum..i suggest you go elsewhere..or else we'll make you go elsewhere.
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It's not easy to convert to Judaism, buddy..
Yes, it is not. Which brings me back to the story of my half-Jewish friend, who as a child felt disowned by the Jewish community because his mother was a gentile. As you said, not easy to convert, especially for a child. All because of a stupid law.
You are such an idiot after reading all your posts...you don't believe in this and you dont' believe in that..but you only believe what you right to you and therefore it is the golden rule for the whole world..you are nothing more than demented idiot...Learn to be more humble before you pass judgement...
This is exactly what you did by calling me a demented idiot. Passed judgment without being humble.
Ban this smartass....he doesn't belong here and hates Jews and what Judaism stands for....
Your being to nice to the piece of crap abuse him a bit. He can always be banned
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I said like three pages ago that this creature is probably from StørmFrønt. Nobody heeded that...
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Ban this smartass....he doesn't belong here and hates Jews and what Judaism stands for....
Your being to nice to the piece of crap abuse him a bit. He can always be banned
HA, the thanks I get for fighting for Jewish rights and fighting Muslim lies about Israel.
I thought 14 million Jews would at least work together for a better future, but now I see the true personality of some of you.
No wonder so many people hate us...
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Axel,
It has been shown that once a Jewish family starts to intermarry, by the second or third generation they have completely left the religion and become atheists of Christians. There is a reason that Torah mandated that Mothers pass the Jewish trait to their children. I believe that everything in Torah is for a purpose, and that purpose is eternal, as long as the Jewish nation exists. There is no seperation between Torah and the Jewish people in my mind.
I really think you have good intentions at heart and don't call for your banning. I think you have issues which need to be investigated by your own introspection and study. We call this process Tefillah, or prayer, because during prayer you examine yourself and ask for help where you are lacking. Please engage in this prayer, and also seek some understanding of why Jews will keep Torah.
I apologize for your circumstance. If you are honest you will work things out and stand with the righteous. I have come to accept that I am not the one making the rules. And like life doesn't always seem fair, but it is definately just.
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I said like three pages ago that this creature is probably from StørmFrønt. Nobody heeded that...
I really am from StørmFrønt. I post there all the time... in the opposing views section defending the Jewish people.
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Axel,
It has been shown that once a Jewish family starts to intermarry, by the second or third generation they have completely left the religion and become atheists of Christians. There is a reason that Torah mandated that Mothers pass the Jewish trait to their children. I believe that everything in Torah is for a purpose, and that purpose is eternal, as long as the Jewish nation exists. There is no seperation between Torah and the Jewish people in my mind.
I understand this, but still think a Jewish woman marrying a non-Jew isn't very likely to keep the Jewish faith. Infact I think the Jewish father, who is a rolemodel for the child, will help them keep their roots. All I'm saying is that a person who shares the Hebrew ethnicity should get some recognition... that's all.
Anyway, I will stop this argument. My goal is to fight muslims, not fellow Jews.
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Ban this smartass....he doesn't belong here and hates Jews and what Judaism stands for....
Your being to nice to the piece of crap abuse him a bit. He can always be banned
HA, the thanks I get for fighting for Jewish rights and fighting Muslim lies about Israel.
I thought 14 million Jews would at least work together for a better future, but now I see the true personality of some of you.
No wonder so many people hate us...
People here are trying to tell you what the right thing is and you give them a hard time. The Jewish people here follow Torah guidelines they don't cut corners. They have been trying to tell you the right thing but you refuse to listen.
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Because the mother is much more involved in raising her children than the father is...
Are you speaking of personal experience?
Secondly the concept of Ashkanazi Jews and Sefardic Jews describes the regions and traditions a certain Jew will come from. Ashkanazi Jews are of European decent while Sefardic Jews are of North African, Middle Eastern, Oriental decent.
Yes, but they share a similar genetic trait for the most part. They just happen to be from different regions.
They are not actually "from" those regions. They are all originally from the same region, which is the Land of Israel. These groups spread out after the destruction of Jerusalem and end of Jewish sovereignty. And as you can see, despite far fetched dna analyses, their appearances have changed greatly and look very different from each other. That is, Moroccon jews look very different than Ethiopian, which look very different from Yemenite, which look different from Iraqi which look very different from Ashkenazim. And this is speaking racially. Racially, they look very different. There IS a genetic component to these differences in appearance, which you of course conveniently ignore. That is because it takes very little inbreeding with surrounding cultures to acquire facial characteristics and other physical similarities. With a handful of converts and a handful intermarriages say every 20 years, over a few centuries the once distinct population group can come out looking very similar due to very little mixing. The reason is of course that "racial" differences in genetics are very subtle despite how qualitatively different people appear to look when they have different skin colors, as an example. That is because skin color like many physical traits is governed by polygenic inheritance.
Like I said before, the genetic relatedness you keep trumpeting is not a proof to you. Of course there will be a genetic connection since originally all the Jews descended from the 12 tribes (and later from the Jewish nation living in Eretz Yisrael) before different groups were dispersed to different places and took on characteristics and influences of their new neighbors over many centuries. That there is some farfetched genetic linkage between disparate groups of Jews is just as much a proof to what we say. But ultimately, there is genetic linkage between all peoples because all humans descend from the same origin and ultimately all human beings are related. So of course such an analysis means nothing.
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I said like three pages ago that this creature is probably from StørmFrønt. Nobody heeded that...
I really am from StørmFrønt. I post there all the time... in the opposing views section defending the Jewish people.
Precisely. And the mistake you're making is exactly what I said it is before. You are speaking to them and trying to relate to them on their terms. You take it for a granted that their terms are truthful and scientific and accurate. But this is not the case. You make the mistake of agreeing to their false assumptions and then trying to refute them from within their own paradigm. This is silly and a dishonest pursuit that is ultimately fruitless. And agreeing to their garbage probably makes them respect you a lot less and also makes them more convinced that their incorrect assumptions are right.
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People here are trying to tell you what the right thing is and you give them a hard time. The Jewish people here follow Torah guidelines they don't cut corners. They have been trying to tell you the right thing but you refuse to listen.
You have to understand that I've never followed the Torah, so my understanding is a bit different. As I was taught about my Jewish identity from anti-semites as I got older.
Anyway, I'm not gona argue about this anymore.
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They are not actually "from" those regions. They are all originally from the same region, which is the Land of Israel. These groups spread out after the destruction of Jerusalem and end of Jewish sovereignty.
See that's what I believe, that's why I think someone with relation to those people of the land of Israel are still at least part-Hebrew as their father is a direct descendant and just as likely to pass on his family tree to the child.
But anyway, this is my last message here regarding the Jewish tradition. I never intended on offending anyone. Forgive my ignorance of the Jewish religion.
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They are not actually "from" those regions. They are all originally from the same region, which is the Land of Israel. These groups spread out after the destruction of Jerusalem and end of Jewish sovereignty.
See that's what I believe, that's why I think someone with relation to those people of the land of Israel are still at least part-Hebrew as their father is a direct descendant and just as likely to pass on his family tree to the child.
Racially and genetically, he is. But that does not make him a Jew. There are many christians and moslems who are also physical descendents of Jews who were either forced to convert or were apostates. Just being a physical descendent does not mean they are a Jew. Even though "genetically" they have the genes of Jewish people in their family heritage and racially might even look similar to one. It makes no difference.
This was why I cited to you the case of Ishmael. Ishmael was Avraham's other son. The Arab Moslems claim descent from Ishmael and traditionally we see the Arabs/bedouins as sons of Ishmael. None of these are considered Jewish, even though the descendents of Avraham's other son, Yitzhak, are Jews. So you see, the Arabs descend from a Jew, the Jewish man Avraham, and yet they are not Jewish. Even though genetically speaking they are sons of Avraham too. So what? That doesn't make someone Jewish. That is what it comes down to. Genetics don't determine that or else all Arabs would be Jews.
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But anyway, this is my last message here regarding the Jewish tradition. I never intended on offending anyone. Forgive my ignorance of the Jewish religion.
I don't think you have to stop talking but it would help you to be a bit more respectful of Torah (Written and Oral), and to be more respectful of gentiles.
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No one here said there is inherently more value in a mother or in a father. We all cherish both mothers and fathers. The question is through which one is the connection to the Jewish nation passed. It is passed through the mother. That does not denigrate fathers. The priestly class (kohanim) as well as the lineage of the monarchy (from King David) is patrilineal.
But in a subtle way it puts more importance on the mother in the process of reproduction choice.
Importance with regard to whether the child is Jewish or not, with a Jewish soul, yes. Importance in any other realm, no. The father is important to give birth to a child and so is the mother, with different roles.
But as I already point out, which you seem to have ignored, whether the child is a Kohen or Levi, or in the line of the monarchy, there is more importance with regard to the father. They have different roles in life. The fact that a mother gives birth to a Jewish child while a father is dependent on the mother to pass on Jewish character to the child, does not devalue the father. It doesn't carry a connotation, it just is. Same thing with regard to the line of King David. That a mother can't pass on this association without the father being a descendent of King David, is no slight at the mother. It just is what it is.
If I'm to have a child with a gentile, my child would therefore be a gentile, my process in the whole thing is minimalized even tho by genetic logic, it doesn't make a difference.
Your "process in the whole thing" deserves to get minimized because it is forbidden to intermarry. Equally forbidden for a man or a woman. The woman is lucky that her child will still be born Jewish, but what kind of situation is that to raise a Jewish child in, if it's a non Jewish household? Not a very good one. He (the child of such a circumstance) is likely to not maintain the faith or pass it on. And we see this bears itself out with Reform Jews in America.
How does a faith get passed on by a mother moreso than a father?
It's not "faith" because what we speak of is independent of what the father or mother believe and what the child will come to believe in his lifetime. It has nothing to do with that. It is the inherent character of the child's soul. You can't put a pricetag on that, and you can't really define it either. We can only go by what the Torah says about it.
Also, is King David therefore not a Jew???
That's a rather peculiar question for several reasons. If you suggest this because Ruth was a non Jew, the fact is that she converted. It seems that she converted before she married Boaz. That would mean Ruth's children were of course Jews, since she converted before having them. But even if you say she didn't convert until after... So what? She is the mother of David's grandfather , which means it is irrelevant if she was a Jew or not, since there is matrilineal descent. It only matters whether David's mother was Jewish. There is no evidence to the contrary. Furthermore, the evidence that Ruth converted is overwhelming anyway. But like I said, that is ultimately irrelevant.
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As Rabbi Kahane used to say, we are a religio-nation.
That means, the Jewish people are not defined solely by "race" or "genetics" or even location (although we do have a land that is ours and strive to go back there). It is also not merely defined by "religion." You are not a Jew just by believing a certain thing. There are guidelines. We combine both aspects, religion and national affiliation, as our identity. And this is his understanding of the Torah. Not waxing poetic on some forum after reading a few wikipedia articles.
So any Muslim who converts to Judaism therefore has a right to the land? I wonder if they thought of this yet...
If it is a proper conversion and they are sincere, YES. And in that case they are no longer "a Muslim" once they convert. If they are "pretending" of course it's not a legitimate conversion and no one will accept that. But if they have the rabbis' approval and do commit to the mitzvot, yes.
Just a minute ago, you were saying how hard it is to convert. Now you seem to suggest that "Muslims" could very easily 'pretend' to convert. You are being inconsistent, but I can see why. You are building your arguments on irrational (and largely emotional) premises.
What about all the idiot negroes from USA who call themselves the "real" Jews? should Israel let them all in?
If you are speaking of "Black Hebrews" they are a cult and are not really Jews. No Israel should not let them in, of course not. But those black hebrews or black israelites that call themselves 'real Jews' ironically never converted and don't know the first thing about real Judaism.
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Please tell me you're joking. Here I am arguing with you about the wether being Jewish is a genetic trait, and you don't see how that's relevant to an article about Jews being ethnicity defined by genetics? if you weren't a believer, I'd say some pretty derogatory things about now.
You shouldn't resort to derogatory things no matter who you are arguing with. But I do appreciate your consideration to refrain here as well since you were tempted to do so with me. I didn't read the article, it is very general. It is wikipedia article about Ashkenazi Jews. How is that an article defining "Jewishness" as an ethnicity determined by genetics? You have no reason to denigrate my position because yours is inherently flawed. This is a recurring problem with you. You are using an anachronism. There are a group of people called Ashkenazi Jews. Originally this referred to a group of Jews who left the land of Israel and ended up in Germany (not France or other European areas, which were different groups). Later it came to also include Jews of France, other places in western Europe, and these Jews also migrated to populate much of eastern Europe and so it came to refer to these Jews as well (those in Russia, Poland etc). Now after the fact we have this group of Jews that is genetically/racially/culturally DIFFERENT from other groups of Jews, and so geneticists and eugenicists and others (racist or otherwise) try to classify this group as having certain related characteristics and distinctions from other groups. How does that in any way prove that Jewishness is a genetic trait? If anything it proves the opposite. We all operate under the same premises here, that Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardi Jews OF TODAY are both equally Jewish populations and yet very different from each other. They look completely different. They sometimes act completely different. They are racially completely different. Yet they are all Jewish. This proves my point, not yours.
What is an Ashkenazi "Jew" then?
A Jew who ended up in Europe and kept the Ashkenazi tradition of Jewish law and custom. That's really it. Originally he was from Eretz Yisrael, then moved to Bavel, or Italy, and from there to Europe, or perhaps from EY to the outer regions of Europe and migrated inward. His ancestors ended up in Germany or in Russia/Poland, France, etc and may have either migrated to America in the mid 1800's to 1950's, or to Israel, or his ancestors survived the war and remained in Europe. All thoughout this time, his ancestors clung to Jewish law and Jewish tradition (the Torah), generally refrained from intermarrying with surrounding gentiles, and kept Jewish life alive to an extent that would enable his own birth as a Jew from two Jewish parents or at least a Jewish mother.
Nowadays the tendency of Jewish people to marry their own kind has changed greatly over the past 50 years, much to our dismay.
Jew (j)
n.
1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.
Is that wrong? does having a Jewish father not make the child partially related to the ancient Hebrews?
You're quoting a dictionary. And I'm the one who's joking?
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Kahane really I could argue this all day and all night, it would all boil down to an argument between an orthodox Jew and an agnostic Jew.
Lets just acknowledge that although we have different beliefs regarding religion and definition of Jews, we are both fighting for Israel and against Islamofacism in all parts of the world.
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Does American law determine who is American and who is not? Does Russian law determine who is Russian and who is not?
Yes, but an American can become a Russian at will. A Jew cannot become a gentile no matter how hard he tries,
Yes, that's right but that is irrelevant to the point I just made. You agree that it is American law that allows an Russian to become a American, and Russian law that allows an American to become Russian. And it is American law that decides who is and is NOT an American to begin with. And if he's not, he has to go through a naturalization process to become one.
As far as I know, American law does not allow an American to become a North Korean. Or at least North Korean law does not. But again, that is irrelevant. The point is the same. A gentile CAN become a Jew, based on the parameters set by the Jewish nation. And the Jewish nation always sets its parameters based on what G-d outlined for us in the Torah and the halacha.
Nonsensical. Judaism is not a race. We are a group of people descended matrilineally from the tribes of Yaakov. (Including a class of kohanim descended patrilineally from Aaron, etc). That is sufficient. Why do you need it to be a race?
Well, replace race with ethnicity. Ethincally we are a sub-race known as the Hebrews. Who was the original Jew? an Arab? that's what we are then.
Genetically in that sense, yes we are "Arab"-like. But we are not defined merely by genetics. That's the whole point. We are Jewish. You want to change the word race to ethnicity. Well ok. Then my question has a new word in it. Why do you need it to be an ethnicity?
And even if we are genetically similar to Arabs, or originally we were genetically Semitic, that has changed! Jews who went to different areas acquired the characteristics of different places and different peoples.
Why do you take them to be true.
Because nowhere in history have Jews came forward and said, "Hey gentiles, we are not a race, we are just people of the ____ race who choose to practice this religion".
Why would they have had to say that? In any case, it's also not true. Jews are a people of mixed races. The race part is irrelevant. The whole point is that race is irrelevant. Especially since we ended up in different places, our "races" changed. It is a question of whether you can trace matrilineal descent from Jewish ancestry, or whether you converted to join this nation. Yes, we are different from other nations and how they define themselves. And we are distinct based on our own definition which we received from the Torah.
That being said, a Polish person is similar in "race" to a Ukrainian person. But they consider themselves very different. And the Polish considers himself Polish based on a number of characteristics, not just how he looks, and they are of his own definition. This includes political realities and identity. The Polish never announced to the world, hey world we are not our own race but just happen to be the Polish nation. Nobody does that. Because that is silly.
So yes, antisemitism is not a truthful thing. In that sense, it is a fiction. It is not justified. I realize this surprises you. But the phenomenon of certain people having a hatred for Jews does exist.
I understand this, but I just want you to look at the term, anti-semite, if Jews attribute this to us we would have to be idiots not to know it means anti-people of the semitic race.
Who is "us" ? You seem to be exposing yourself here as having a different association with SF then you first claimed.
And you're wrong. It doesn't mean "anti people of the semitic race." That was merely the term psychologists and/or sociologists first used to describe the phenomenon of Jew-hatred. Of course the gentiles considered us a race in their inaccurate racial hatred. So they were quick to latch onto this term and in part to try to justify themselves. But that doesn't make it so.
Once again, Jew-hating gentiles and neonazis consider Jews to be a race and you are quick to accept their claims. I am not quick to do so, and I do not do so.
It would then just be anti-Jew, like anti-Islam and anti-Christian.
No, again you are misunderstanding. Being Jewish is not just a religion. Just like the continuation of the jewish people is not based on "faith." It is a mistake to think this way. It is not merely that someone believes a certain thing he is a Jew. We are a religion and also a nation. It is a dual nature to our identity, and if that is different from how other people define themselves, so be it. We were given the Torah to be a different nation than the others. We are unique. Nothing wrong with that.
And if you mean 'antisemite' really means "Jew-hater" and is an imprecise term to really say Jew-hater then yes I agree with you.
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Kahane really I could argue this all day and all night, it would all boil down to an argument between an orthodox Jew and an agnostic Jew.
Lets just acknowledge that although we have different beliefs regarding religion and definition of Jews, we are both fighting for Israel and against Islamofacism in all parts of the world.
This may be so, but I just want to point out one last thing, that if it only went by "Jewish ancestry" according to your definition, and having a Jewish father or mother somewhere up the chain of ancestry makes a person Jewish, then half of Europe is probably Jewish because of intermarrying in the 16-1800's, lots of Jews converting to other religions and ceasing to live Jewish lifestyles (absorbing into gentile populations or at least trying to), then producing gentile children/grandchildren eetc, and of course half or all of the middle east are all really Jews because of all those Arabs who were once Jews forced to convert to Islam, or just all the Arabs in general who descend from Avraham would all really be Jews. Nobody honestly believes this, but this should be true according to what you are saying.
And furthermore, we do not say that a guy who 12 generations ago had a Jewish parent that raised a son with a gentile religion , and then he and all subsequent generations married gentiles, finally producing this one guy 12 generations later, even though prior to those 12 generations his ancestry was completely Jewish, we do not say that this guy 12 generations later, living today, is a Jew. But according to you, he would be. And even he himself would deny it.
But in reality, if he was a guy who researched and realized he came from a Jewish family that married out or converted out, 12 generations prior to him, then saw himself as being descended from Jews, and identified with the jewish people and sought to return to his real ancient roots, he would have to convert in order to do so. And then he would be Jewish. Up until he converts, at that point he is just a physical descendent of Jews who is not a Jew himself.
And there are many such cases of living people today who are descendents of major Jewish rabbis from before the 20th century, who are completely gentile and follow a gentile religion but just know that they have an ancestor who is the Chofetz Chaim for instance. They are not Jewish nor would they say they are. And I think you know this, so it is an inconsistency with your theory.
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Not to extend this debate...
Yes, you are correct, KWRBT --- If one was to trace his ancestry or lineage PATERNALLY, and discovered he had a Jewish great-great-great-great Grandfather ---- then according to Jewish law, he is not a Jew.
BUT...
If this same person traced his ancestry or lineage MATERNALLY, and discovered his great-great-great-great Grandmother was Jewish ---- then according to Jewish law, he is a Jew. This would be true even if every single one of his great Grandmothers married Gentiles and raised their daughters as Gentiles -- they'd all be Jewish by ancestry, and so would he, regardless of what they considered themselves to be.
So interestingly, the notion of much of Europe (or the world for that matter) being Jewish without knowing it, would in fact be true -- if lineage was traced from a maternal standpoint.
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I was born and raised in a Catholic household and 100% in favor of the Jews and Israel to succeed
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Kahane really I could argue this all day and all night, it would all boil down to an argument between an orthodox Jew and an agnostic Jew.
Lets just acknowledge that although we have different beliefs regarding religion and definition of Jews, we are both fighting for Israel and against Islamofacism in all parts of the world.
Axel, you dont know what the hell you are. I know who you are though, you are a SELF HATING Jew that turned NAZI, and you have the a $$ at us.
Well, open up and tell us WHY you are so angry with the big bad JTF...
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Ban this smartass....he doesn't belong here and hates Jews and what Judaism stands for....
Your being to nice to the piece of crap abuse him a bit. He can always be banned
HA, the thanks I get for fighting for Jewish rights and fighting Muslim lies about Israel.
I thought 14 million Jews would at least work together for a better future, but now I see the true personality of some of you.
No wonder so many people hate us...
People hate YOU, Axel, because you are a weak person.
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Axel, I think you should stop posting on StørmFrønt. Even if you think you are against them, some of their ideas are clearly rubbing off on you.
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Axel, you are a terrible liar also.
You dont 'take up for the Jewish people' LOL...you cant even be POLITE here on this forum, are you serious?? :laugh:
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Not to extend this debate...
Yes, you are correct, KWRBT --- If one was to trace his ancestry or lineage PATERNALLY, and discovered he had a Jewish great-great-great-great Grandfather ---- then according to Jewish law, he is not a Jew.
BUT...
If this same person traced his ancestry or lineage MATERNALLY, and discovered his great-great-great-great Grandmother was Jewish ---- then according to Jewish law, he is a Jew. This would be true even if every single one of his great Grandmothers married Gentiles and raised their daughters as Gentiles -- they'd all be Jewish by ancestry, and so would he, regardless of what they considered themselves to be.
So interestingly, the notion of much of Europe (or the world for that matter) being Jewish without knowing it, would in fact be true -- if lineage was traced from a maternal standpoint.
That's true but the likelihood of that isn't great. A person is much less likely to have a direct matrilineal descent to a Jewish 12thgreat grandmother as opposed to just any descent from a Jewish relative 12 generations back, mixing both patrilineal and matrilineal lines. That is much more frequent. And among those, they aren't actually Jewish. But you're right if it's all matrilineal they would be.
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Hi, nice to have you.
I am born a Jew by my mom, my mom's family are crypto-Marrano from Portugal. I was never really practicing until a few years back. My Dad is a WASP & Iroquois, so that is proof that people should marry themselves.
I am a little more open than most people regarding Judaism and Christianty-etc. I've had NO choice in this world of Jew-hatred.
I am glad that you joined. Its not easy to put ones-self in our shoes, and when people support and join, it makes me happy, because NOBODY speaks for right-wing Jews- they certainly are NOT in office and do NOT represent US.
Glad that you are here, and I hope that you become closer to G-d, and see whats really happening in this place they now call America :'(
You've got to be kidding me.
Ashedina, you are joke. You're not even a Jew.
You said your mom comes from a crypto-Marrano family? So are you going to tell me your mother has had a long chain of Jewish family completely unbroken since the 1500's? :::D :::D :::D
You're a joke. No rabbi would consider you Jewish unless you go through a conversion.
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Hi, nice to have you.
I am born a Jew by my mom, my mom's family are crypto-Marrano from Portugal. I was never really practicing until a few years back. My Dad is a WASP & Iroquois, so that is proof that people should marry themselves.
I am a little more open than most people regarding Judaism and Christianty-etc. I've had NO choice in this world of Jew-hatred.
I am glad that you joined. Its not easy to put ones-self in our shoes, and when people support and join, it makes me happy, because NOBODY speaks for right-wing Jews- they certainly are NOT in office and do NOT represent US.
Glad that you are here, and I hope that you become closer to G-d, and see whats really happening in this place they now call America :'(
You've got to be kidding me.
Ashedina, you are joke. You're not even a Jew.
You said your mom comes from a crypto-Marrano family? So are you going to tell me your mother has had a long chain of Jewish family completely unbroken since the 1500's? :::D :::D :::D
You're a joke. No rabbi would consider you Jewish unless you go through a conversion.
AsheDina is Jew. What's your problem with her? What do you think who are you? If I had "Teutonic Knight" username I would be silent...
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Hi, nice to have you.
I am born a Jew by my mom, my mom's family are crypto-Marrano from Portugal. I was never really practicing until a few years back. My Dad is a WASP & Iroquois, so that is proof that people should marry themselves.
I am a little more open than most people regarding Judaism and Christianty-etc. I've had NO choice in this world of Jew-hatred.
I am glad that you joined. Its not easy to put ones-self in our shoes, and when people support and join, it makes me happy, because NOBODY speaks for right-wing Jews- they certainly are NOT in office and do NOT represent US.
Glad that you are here, and I hope that you become closer to G-d, and see whats really happening in this place they now call America :'(
You've got to be kidding me.
Ashedina, you are joke. You're not even a Jew.
You said your mom comes from a crypto-Marrano family? So are you going to tell me your mother has had a long chain of Jewish family completely unbroken since the 1500's? :::D :::D :::D
You're a joke. No rabbi would consider you Jewish unless you go through a conversion.
AsheDina is Jew. What's your problem with her? What do you think who are you? If I had "Teutonic Knight" username I would be silent...
If AsheDina says she is a Jew who are you to question it. I see your here to stir the pot. You really are picking on one of the wrong people.
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Hi, nice to have you.
I am born a Jew by my mom, my mom's family are crypto-Marrano from Portugal. I was never really practicing until a few years back. My Dad is a WASP & Iroquois, so that is proof that people should marry themselves.
I am a little more open than most people regarding Judaism and Christianty-etc. I've had NO choice in this world of Jew-hatred.
I am glad that you joined. Its not easy to put ones-self in our shoes, and when people support and join, it makes me happy, because NOBODY speaks for right-wing Jews- they certainly are NOT in office and do NOT represent US.
Glad that you are here, and I hope that you become closer to G-d, and see whats really happening in this place they now call America :'(
You've got to be kidding me.
Ashedina, you are joke. You're not even a Jew.
You said your mom comes from a crypto-Marrano family? So are you going to tell me your mother has had a long chain of Jewish family completely unbroken since the 1500's? :::D :::D :::D
You're a joke. No rabbi would consider you Jewish unless you go through a conversion.
AsheDina is Jew. What's your problem with her? What do you think who are you? If I had "Teutonic Knight" username I would be silent...
If AsheDina says she is a Jew who are you to question it. I see your here to stir the pot. You really are picking on one of the wrong people.
This message was for Teutonic Knight? Because if you didn't see I was protecting our sister AsheDina... ::)
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Axel, you are a terrible liar also.
You dont 'take up for the Jewish people' LOL...you cant even be POLITE here on this forum, are you serious?? :laugh:
I was polite. I'm not going to be passive when I have a different opinion, sorry, but I decided to back down this time not to offend anyones religious beliefs.
How this makes me a liar I have no idea, and frankly my dear I don't give a damn.
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Axel, I think you should stop posting on StørmFrønt. Even if you think you are against them, some of their ideas are clearly rubbing off on you.
You might be right about that, in order to have the upper hand against them I'd have to often see things from their perspective.
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Hi, nice to have you.
I am born a Jew by my mom, my mom's family are crypto-Marrano from Portugal. I was never really practicing until a few years back. My Dad is a WASP & Iroquois, so that is proof that people should marry themselves.
I am a little more open than most people regarding Judaism and Christianty-etc. I've had NO choice in this world of Jew-hatred.
I am glad that you joined. Its not easy to put ones-self in our shoes, and when people support and join, it makes me happy, because NOBODY speaks for right-wing Jews- they certainly are NOT in office and do NOT represent US.
Glad that you are here, and I hope that you become closer to G-d, and see whats really happening in this place they now call America :'(
You've got to be kidding me.
Ashedina, you are joke. You're not even a Jew.
You said your mom comes from a crypto-Marrano family? So are you going to tell me your mother has had a long chain of Jewish family completely unbroken since the 1500's? :::D :::D :::D
You're a joke. No rabbi would consider you Jewish unless you go through a conversion.
This a $$ is still here, just to make people feel like [censored], the a $$ goes or I go.
I protect my brothers and sisters WITH MY LIFE, what does this maggot do, come here and treat people like [censored].
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I said like three pages ago that this creature is probably from StørmFrønt. Nobody heeded that...
I really am from StørmFrønt. I post there all the time... in the opposing views section defending the Jewish people.
You could leave there altogether and start your OWN Blog and fight for the Jewish people on YOUR OWN.
How many Jews fought WITH the Nazis and lived?
Why do liberal Jews CONSISTENTLY hang with ENEMIES that HATE their guts, instead of fighting WITH those that fight the enemy TOGETHER?
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I said like three pages ago that this creature is probably from StørmFrønt. Nobody heeded that...
I really am from StørmFrønt. I post there all the time... in the opposing views section defending the Jewish people.
You could leave there altogether and start your OWN Blog and fight for the Jewish people on YOUR OWN.
How many Jews fought WITH the Nazis and lived?
Why do liberal Jews CONSISTENTLY hang with ENEMIES that HATE their guts, instead of fighting WITH those that fight the enemy TOGETHER?
I guess because we are outnumbered, 14 million to 6 billion who could possibly hate us. Although in the long run I learnt that it's futile trying to change the minds of anti-semites, I also don't know what a blog will do other than tell fellow Jews what the already know.
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I said like three pages ago that this creature is probably from StørmFrønt. Nobody heeded that...
I really am from StørmFrønt. I post there all the time... in the opposing views section defending the Jewish people.
You could leave there altogether and start your OWN Blog and fight for the Jewish people on YOUR OWN.
How many Jews fought WITH the Nazis and lived?
Why do liberal Jews CONSISTENTLY hang with ENEMIES that HATE their guts, instead of fighting WITH those that fight the enemy TOGETHER?
Good points AsheDina. You are right.
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I just banned Axel a little while ago. The last straw was when he compared Jewish circumcision to what Muslims do to little girls.
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Thankyou for banning him, he must have been related to all the others that have come through here lately... :::D :laugh:
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It looks like we're 50/50.
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Thanks Lisa, it's so nice when you ban these trolls. Everyone here on the forum appreciates you, myself included.
Shalom & may G-d Bless Lisa
Dox
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Axel, Teutonic Knight, and Yonah were obviously good friends on Whorefront. (And I would not be surprised if they are more than friends.)
I wouldn't be surprised if all three are friends of Tina Greco, Kelly Scott, Andrew Newman, Jesus Rivera Jr., etc. too.