JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Dan Ben Noah on August 29, 2009, 09:48:51 PM
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Shalom
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Interesting question. I don't know enough to be able to answer. Don't want to lead astray if I'm wrong. For sure the Jew can't ask you to do it for him. But perhaps..... I don't know.
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I don't think you're allowed to do so. There's a question and answer about this topic on the website yeshiva.org.il, but the Rabbi doesn't explain his answer.
Dear Yeshiva.org.il,
I have read the previous question and answer on this topic, but I still do not understand the Rabbinic prohibition. Putting that aside for a moment, I have an individual questions: I live 3 miles away from shul, and as we’re a very small community there’s only one service every month. Now, I could walk to and from shul, but I find this very tiring, it is very mundane (meaning that it reminds me of weekday by walking along a road I commute along every day), and it’s not really making Shabbos much of a ’day of rest’. So, in these circumstances, is it not permitted for me to have my friend drive me to and from the synagogue?
Answer:
No, it is not permitted.
Additional answers of Rabbi Yirmiyohu Kaganoff
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I don't think you're allowed to do so. There's a question and answer about this topic on the website yeshiva.org.il, but the Rabbi doesn't explain his answer.
Dear Yeshiva.org.il,
I have read the previous question and answer on this topic, but I still do not understand the Rabbinic prohibition. Putting that aside for a moment, I have an individual questions: I live 3 miles away from shul, and as we’re a very small community there’s only one service every month. Now, I could walk to and from shul, but I find this very tiring, it is very mundane (meaning that it reminds me of weekday by walking along a road I commute along every day), and it’s not really making Shabbos much of a ’day of rest’. So, in these circumstances, is it not permitted for me to have my friend drive me to and from the synagogue?
Answer:
No, it is not permitted.
Additional answers of Rabbi Yirmiyohu Kaganoff
No but that is different because the Jew would be asking his friend to do so.
Not the same situation.
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I need an orthodox Jew to answer: Is a non-Jew allowed to offer a Jew a ride in his car on the Sabbath? I am permitted to drive to shul since I am a Noahide, but I have seen Jews walking before in the summer heat with black hats and suits on, and I was just wondering if it would be proper for me to offer them a ride. I've turned lights on for them before that they forgot to turn on before Shabbat, so I thought maybe I could do this.
NO! I appreciate the thought though.
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I need an orthodox Jew to answer: Is a non-Jew allowed to offer a Jew a ride in his car on the Sabbath? I am permitted to drive to shul since I am a Noahide, but I have seen Jews walking before in the summer heat with black hats and suits on, and I was just wondering if it would be proper for me to offer them a ride. I've turned lights on for them before that they forgot to turn on before Shabbat, so I thought maybe I could do this.
NO! I appreciate the thought though.
Based on what though? Why would it be forbidden? I encourage people to refrain from stating a psak if they do not really know the halacha behind it... I have tried to do that myself here. I haven't seen anyone give a compelling answer either way. We should find a rav to ask about it.
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Shalom,
I agree that anything which we discuss here is only our opinions. I would not presume anyone here is capable of fully explaining or understanding the issues involved.
That doesn't mean I will not offer my opinion on this matter. I am one who does support the concept of the Shabbat Goy, and I do employ one for occasional emergencies in my house. But even so I do not think that allowing non-Jews to give rides to a Jew on Shabbat is a good thing to encourage.
There are two reasons I have this opinion:
1) Torah commands that we should make Shabbat a day of complete rest in our homes, for ourselves, for our families, for our servants, and for our animals.
2) Rabbis have instituted fences around Torah law so that we should not come to violating any laws.
I apply these two concepts in the following ways:
If a non-Jew gives a ride to a Jew and he does this regularly it can be said that these two are like family. A Jew should not allow his friend to drive on Shabbat, and if his friend is a non-Jew, as in this case, he can be considered a servant of the Jew. Even servants should cease creative activity {melachas} on Shabbat.
If a Jew or a non-Jew observes a religious looking Jew being driven on Shabbat it may come to be believed that the driver was also Jewish and therefore a chillul Hashem. Also it may be believed that it is not a violation for a Jew to drive on Shabbat. I think this is a parallel to the idea of not eating chicken and cheese together because an observer may conclude that it was really meat and cheese...
I know these ideas are not presented in the most understandable way but because of these two ideas I would conclude that the Rabbis would find that this is not permissible.
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Let me put it this way. Hypothetically speaking. The nonJew is going to the shul himself on shabbath because he's a noahide trying to connect and likes the davening, or he's studying to become a ger. He sees a Jew suffering in the heat with a long walk (or it's raining), so since he is ALREADY driving himself back from shul anyway, since he is a nonJew and is forbidden to keep shabbath, he can offer this nice Jew a ride to hop in since regardless of what the Jew does, this nonJew is going to show up there in his car, then drive back afterwards to the same place. Whether the Jew comes along or not. And never once does the Jew ask to be picked up or arrange for this, the nonJew just offers out of the goodness of his heart. This to me sounds exactly like what Dan Ben Noah was describing. I have trouble seeing how this in anyway violates halacha or any fence. (muman, I include "rabbinical fences" when I say 'halacha' -that should go without saying). Nor has anyone given any reason why it would. Maybe it does. But I can't see why. My knowledge here is limited. But just saying philosophical treatises about why jews have to follow the rabbis and such, really does not address the issue. Nobody is saying Jews don't have to follow the rabbis or halacha in general.
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If a non-Jew gives a ride to a Jew and he does this regularly it can be said that these two are like family.
Where do you get that from? People who ride in cars together are now de facto family members? I've never heard of such a thing. I think that's a big stretch.
A Jew should not allow his friend to drive on Shabbat,
Why? Non Jewish friends are allowed to do whatever they want on Shabbath (in terms of melacha).
and if his friend is a non-Jew, as in this case, he can be considered a servant of the Jew. Even servants should cease creative activity {melachas} on Shabbat.
Perhaps you mean Jewish servants? Because non Jews are forbidden to keep Shabbath.
Anyway, I don't see how a friend suddenly became a "servant" ? It's not like the guy is ordering him, pick me up from shul every friday. The non Jew just happens to be there and offers a ride.
But it's kind of funny how you went from 'family' to 'friend' to 'servant'... It seems like you just want to define the non Jewish guy as anything that enables you to say it's forbidden.
If a Jew or a non-Jew observes a religious looking Jew being driven on Shabbat it may come to be believed that the driver was also Jewish and therefore a chillul Hashem.
Here you may be right, I'm not sure how this plays into it. This may or may not be a key issue involved.
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I need an orthodox Jew to answer: Is a non-Jew allowed to offer a Jew a ride in his car on the Sabbath? I am permitted to drive to shul since I am a Noahide, but I have seen Jews walking before in the summer heat with black hats and suits on, and I was just wondering if it would be proper for me to offer them a ride. I've turned lights on for them before that they forgot to turn on before Shabbat, so I thought maybe I could do this.
You are a good man!
thank you for your kindness
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So you get it now?
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Well thanks everyone for your answers. Looks like there is still a difference of opinion. I may just have to ask the rabbi of the shul, whom I haven't seen since I started wondering this.
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Yes, I guarantee somebody will be able to answer your question. The ANSWER is no, the reason you will have to find out. However, we are commanded to follow EVEN when we don't understand it.
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Well thanks everyone for your answers. Looks like there is still a difference of opinion. I may just have to ask the rabbi of the shul, whom I haven't seen since I started wondering this.
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Yes, I guarantee somebody will be able to answer your question. The ANSWER is no, the reason you will have to find out. However, we are commanded to follow EVEN when we don't understand it.
lol, how do you know the answer is no if you don't know the reason or can't cite one?
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Well thanks everyone for your answers. Looks like there is still a difference of opinion. I may just have to ask the rabbi of the shul, whom I haven't seen since I started wondering this.
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Yes, I guarantee somebody will be able to answer your question. The ANSWER is no, the reason you will have to find out. However, we are commanded to follow EVEN when we don't understand it.
lol, how do you know the answer is no if you don't know the reason or can't cite one?
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?id=3907
This says it is a violation of a Rabbinical injunction.
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http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?id=3907
This says it is a violation of a Rabbinical injunction.
Interesting, howcome they don't cite any source or show what the halacha is?
I don't usually like that kind of website for halachic opinions for exactly that reason.
What exactly is the "rabbinic injunction" they refer to?
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http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?id=3907
This says it is a violation of a Rabbinical injunction.
Interesting, howcome they don't cite any source or show what the halacha is?
I don't usually like that kind of website for halachic opinions for exactly that reason.
What exactly is the "rabbinic injunction" they refer to?
I agree. The rabbi doesn't really explain the answer. He just goes off on a tangent about the relation between the written torah and the oral torah since the person asking the question is clearly clueless.
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http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?id=3907
This says it is a violation of a Rabbinical injunction.
Interesting, howcome they don't cite any source or show what the halacha is?
I don't usually like that kind of website for halachic opinions for exactly that reason.
What exactly is the "rabbinic injunction" they refer to?
I agree with you that it is not a good summation, but the conclusion is correct. If it was not, then Orthodox Jews would not really have to observe Shabbat, because according to that logic a Goy can do every single thing for them and it's all fine.
When you are in a car, there is extra gasoline burning because of your presence in the car. That alone would constitute melacha, as the fuel is burning for your sake, and nobody elses.
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http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?id=3907
This says it is a violation of a Rabbinical injunction.
Interesting, howcome they don't cite any source or show what the halacha is?
I don't usually like that kind of website for halachic opinions for exactly that reason.
What exactly is the "rabbinic injunction" they refer to?
I agree with you that it is not a good summation, but the conclusion is correct. If it was not, then Orthodox Jews would not really have to observe Shabbat, because according to that logic a Goy can do every single thing for them and it's all fine.
Well I know for sure it is not fine if you are asking that goy to do the things for you. You cannot instruct or ask a nonJew to do melacha for you. But where I don't understand is for what reason is it forbidden if he does it of his own accord.
The car using extra gas for another person, that seems a stretch. But maybe.
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Slight tangent, but how would I go about refuting the haredim that use Arabs as shabbat goy?
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Slight tangent, but how would I go about refuting the haredim that use Arabs as shabbat goy?
What is there to refute? Shabbat Goys are ok... I employ one {not an arab, of course} occasionally when there are emergencies in the house on Shabbat..
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What is there to refute? Shabbat Goys are ok... I employ one {not an arab, of course} occasionally when there are emergencies in the house on Shabbat..
I specifically meant Arab Muslim Shabbat goyim.
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What is there to refute? Shabbat Goys are ok... I employ one {not an arab, of course} occasionally when there are emergencies in the house on Shabbat..
I specifically meant Arab Muslim Shabbat goyim.
Well I wouldn't use arabs for anything, especially on Shabbat...
They are waiting for the right time to kill Jews...
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There are actually Haredim in Israel that use Arabs as SGs pretty extensively.
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There are actually Haredim in Israel that use Arabs as SGs pretty extensively.
That's different though.
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Slight tangent, but how would I go about refuting the haredim that use Arabs as shabbat goy?
You can only refute them by stating that it is imprudent to do so. Religiously, there is nothing that states an Arab cannot work as a Shabbos Goy.
Furthermore, with the situation in Israel being as it is, that there are many secular Jews who don't care about these things. That being said, many Rabbis support hiring Arabs as a Shabbat Goy because it is a paying job, which results in JEwish Israelis lying and saying that they are Goys to get the job.
Between facilitating a Jew breaking the Shabbas, or hiring an Arab, I would rather hire an Arab.
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Slight tangent, but how would I go about refuting the haredim that use Arabs as shabbat goy?
You can only refute them by stating that it is imprudent to do so. Religiously, there is nothing that states an Arab cannot work as a Shabbos Goy.
Furthermore, with the situation in Israel being as it is, that there are many secular Jews who don't care about these things. That being said, many Rabbis support hiring Arabs as a Shabbat Goy because it is a paying job, which results in JEwish Israelis lying and saying that they are Goys to get the job.
Between facilitating a Jew breaking the Shabbas, or hiring an Arab, I would rather hire an Arab.
But you may not realize that the "Arab" is really an Israeli (Mizrahi) Jew pretending to be one.
In any case, it does seem incredible that halacha would allow hiring shabbos goyim. Think about in this thread, we said how (or so it seems) a goy could not voluntarily give a Jew a ride in the car on Shabbath without being asked..... but we could hire him ahead of time with the prestigious title of shabbos goy, to drive us around as a chauffuer? Something aint right here.
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Slight tangent, but how would I go about refuting the haredim that use Arabs as shabbat goy?
You can only refute them by stating that it is imprudent to do so. Religiously, there is nothing that states an Arab cannot work as a Shabbos Goy.
Furthermore, with the situation in Israel being as it is, that there are many secular Jews who don't care about these things. That being said, many Rabbis support hiring Arabs as a Shabbat Goy because it is a paying job, which results in JEwish Israelis lying and saying that they are Goys to get the job.
Between facilitating a Jew breaking the Shabbas, or hiring an Arab, I would rather hire an Arab.
But you may not realize that the "Arab" is really an Israeli (Mizrahi) Jew pretending to be one.
In any case, it does seem incredible that halacha would allow hiring shabbos goyim. Think about in this thread, we said how (or so it seems) a goy could not voluntarily give a Jew a ride in the car on Shabbath without being asked..... but we could hire him ahead of time with the prestigious title of shabbos goy, to drive us around as a chauffuer? Something aint right here.
It is very easy to make sure that someone is an Arab if you are hiring him as a Shabbos Goy, ie. If he lives in an Arab village, speaks Arabic with a Palestinian accent, has a family that is known, etc.
It is much harder to make sure that a Romanian who just moved to Israel in the last couple of years is not Jewish.
As for your take on the Shabbes goy, the confusion on the parts of people in this thread stems from the fact that the Hilchot governing the idea of a Shabbes Goy are very complicated, and one must be a Torah scholar, or receive advice from a Torah scholar on how to follow halacha properly.
That being said, I cannot answer your question, and I think it is best to talk to a knowledgabe Rabbi about this.