JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ben Yehuda on September 10, 2009, 12:56:44 PM
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Player.htm#0#1397
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We can only hope.
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He's too mainstream. He denounces Baruch Goldstein (zt"l) and is politically correct at all times when push comes to shove.
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He's too mainstream. He denounces Baruch Goldstein (zt"l) and is politically correct at all times when push comes to shove.
Well, if it's a choice between him and Chaim, then I am definitely for Chaim. But if it's between him and Netanyahu, the answer is clear.
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He would be better than Lewinsky but then again so would my cat. I don't think Feiglin will really do what it takes to save Israel.
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We need Chaim there. But realistically, how many votes would a Kahanist get?
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Player.htm#0#1397
Feiglin is a smart and nice man, but does he have what it takes to kill these enemy slime, and root out Israel of its destroyers amongst them?
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You know, I don't know. Just thought it was interesting.
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I lost a lot of respect for him when he denounced the saints Yigal Amir and Dr. Baruch Goldstein.
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That would be wonderful if Feiglin became Prime Minister. :dance: :dance:
Of course I prefer Chaim, Baruch Marzel, Michael Ben-Ari, or even Yacov Katz, but Moshe Feiglin would be dramatically better than Netanyahu.
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I wish Feglin well and have given him money. However, I doubt that he is anywhere near becoming Prime Minister.
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I wish Feglin well and have given him money. However, I doubt that he is anywhere near becoming Prime Minister.
He's not really right-wing. He's semi-right at best.
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That would be wonderful if Feiglin became Prime Minister. :dance: :dance:
Of course I prefer Chaim, Baruch Marzel, Michael Ben-Ari, or even Yacov Katz, but Moshe Feiglin would be dramatically better than Netanyahu.
Almost anyone would be better than netanyoyo.
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While his outlook is not so bad, his methods are inefficient and lead to nowhere. He wants to take power in the Likud party by democratic methods, and then being the leader of a large party run for PM.
Last Likud inner elections have shown the problem of this approach. According to the results, Feiglin should have been placed at 20th place (and because Likud won 27 mandates in the general election, he should have become a Knesset member). But he was pushed to 36th place by purely amdinistrative methods.
His chances to come to power is Likud is not much greater than those of Iranian opposition to come to power in Iran.
My opinion that he and his supporters should leave Likud and join National Union.
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While his outlook is not so bad, his methods are inefficient and lead to nowhere. He wants to take power in the Likud party by democratic methods, and then being the leader of a large party run for PM.
Last Likud inner elections have shown the problem of this approach. According to the results, Feiglin should have been placed at 20th place (and because Likud won 27 mandates in the general election, he should have become a Knesset member). But he was pushed to 36th place by purely amdinistrative methods.
Those results are irrelevant. What could he do as #20 man on the party list under Bibi PM, or #10, or even #5 on the likud list? Seemingly nothing. IMO his real hope is winning the likud primary to be the PM candidate. As far as that goes, he is #2 man in Likud as of the last primary election. It appears to me he is just biding his time until the next one. In reality, I don't think he can do much else. People on party lists under the prime minister don't have much sway over the prime minister. The PM calls the shots.
That being said there was a huge story about Feiglin and Manhigut yehudit being a thorn for bibi (currently) in last week's hebrew maariv paper.
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I think I'm going to run for PM. If somebody named Moshe is going to run, it might as well be me.
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I support this guy and him trying to break the state monopoly on radio and give free speech to everybody. And I agree with him on Baruch Goldstein. Dr. Baruch Goldstein made Jewish people look like a bunch of murderous savages when he randomly attacked the mosque in Hebron (even though the mosque shouldn't be there). There are better ways to deal with Leftist Prime Ministers signing peace treaties than attacking random Arabs at prayers. Baruch Goldstein made us look like the Jewish version of the Taliban, and if this is wrong, prove to me how the attack was not Al-Queda-esque?
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I support this guy and him trying to break the state monopoly on radio and give free speech to everybody. And I agree with him on Baruch Goldstein. Dr. Baruch Goldstein made Jewish people look like a bunch of murderous savages when he randomly attacked the mosque in Hebron (even though the mosque shouldn't be there). There are better ways to deal with Leftist Prime Ministers signing peace treaties than attacking random Arabs at prayers. Baruch Goldstein made us look like the Jewish version of the Taliban, and if this is wrong, prove to me how the attack was not Al-Queda-esque?
Baruch Goldstein's attack was not at all random. There was a warning that the Arabs he attacked were going to massacre the Jews of Hebron. They had weapons stored in the mosque, and they were chanting "death to the Jews."
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[/quote]Almost anyone would be better than netanyoyo.
Thats not true at all. What about Tzipi Livni? :o
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I support this guy and him trying to break the state monopoly on radio and give free speech to everybody. And I agree with him on Baruch Goldstein. Dr. Baruch Goldstein made Jewish people look like a bunch of murderous savages when he randomly attacked the mosque in Hebron (even though the mosque shouldn't be there). There are better ways to deal with Leftist Prime Ministers signing peace treaties than attacking random Arabs at prayers. Baruch Goldstein made us look like the Jewish version of the Taliban, and if this is wrong, prove to me how the attack was not Al-Queda-esque?
Baruch Goldstein's attack was not at all random. There was a warning that the Arabs he attacked were going to massacre the Jews of Hebron. They had weapons stored in the mosque, and they were chanting "death to the Jews."
Baruch Goldstein was a hero.
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I didn't hear Feiglin betray Yigal Amir or Baruch Goldstein. And his positions are adequate. The only problem is that it is impossible to vote for him because he is in the Likud. If I vote Likud I get Netanyahu and the other scums who feels its rank. At best we could get 30+ likud scums to get and one Feiglin in the Knesset.
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I didn't hear Feiglin betray Yigal Amir or Baruch Goldstein. And his positions are adequate. The only problem is that it is impossible to vote for him because he is in the Likud. If I vote Likud I get Netanyahu and the other scums who feels its rank. At best we could get 30+ likud scums to get and one Feiglin in the Knesset.
Did you listen to the radio program that was linked in the first post? His right hand explained why it was crucial that Feiglin rund under the Likud banner. I don't know if I buy this reasoning. On the other hand, I am a total idealist when it comes to politics. I don't believe in strategic decisions and questionable alliances. I elieve one should totally go with one's heart and speak the truth and do what's right, and the rest is up to G-d. If one's timing is G-d timing then He will help. If not, you still have to do the right thing. Look at America. Let's say you voted for McCain as the lesser of the two evils (which I did, by the way, against my best judgment). Would it have been better if McCain won? No. The policy would have been only slightly less crazy, but the larger public would not have been awakened as it has been with Hussein. G-d made it work out for the best. But it would have been even better if everyone voted their conscience - some honest third party candidate. No, I find out time and time again: compromises never lead to any good.
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I support this guy and him trying to break the state monopoly on radio and give free speech to everybody. And I agree with him on Baruch Goldstein. Dr. Baruch Goldstein made Jewish people look like a bunch of murderous savages when he randomly attacked the mosque in Hebron (even though the mosque shouldn't be there). There are better ways to deal with Leftist Prime Ministers signing peace treaties than attacking random Arabs at prayers. Baruch Goldstein made us look like the Jewish version of the Taliban, and if this is wrong, prove to me how the attack was not Al-Queda-esque?
I don't believe that story cooked up by the media and Israeli govt. The story's unbelievable. I believe he was set up. I think the ballistics support my opinion, not the govt's. If he was really on a murder rampage, there would have been a lot more dead arabs. (So that mean's I also don't believe the 'rightwing' version of events that he did that to prevent a pogrom. Maybe it's more likely than the govt's account, but still farfetched. No goodbye to his wife, no warning? Seems odd.)
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I didn't hear Feiglin betray Yigal Amir or Baruch Goldstein. And his positions are adequate. The only problem is that it is impossible to vote for him because he is in the Likud. If I vote Likud I get Netanyahu and the other scums who feels its rank. At best we could get 30+ likud scums to get and one Feiglin in the Knesset.
Did you listen to the radio program that was linked in the first post? His right hand explained why it was crucial that Feiglin rund under the Likud banner. I don't know if I buy this reasoning. On the other hand, I am a total idealist when it comes to politics. I don't believe in strategic decisions and questionable alliances. I elieve one should totally go with one's heart and speak the truth and do what's right, and the rest is up to G-d. If one's timing is G-d timing then He will help. If not, you still have to do the right thing. Look at America. Let's say you voted for McCain as the lesser of the two evils (which I did, by the way, against my best judgment). Would it have been better if McCain won? No. The policy would have been only slightly less crazy, but the larger public would not have been awakened as it has been with Hussein. G-d made it work out for the best. But it would have been even better if everyone voted their conscience - some honest third party candidate. No, I find out time and time again: compromises never lead to any good.
I didn't listen to the link, but I've heard Feiglin speak (about this particular subject as well) and read some of his articles. I am a political pragmatist which is why I don't rule out Feifglin's plan on principle. If he could take over the Likud it would be great, but I can't see how it happens. If he managed to fill up 1/3 of the Likud's list with worthy candidates, than I would say the Likud might be worth voting for. But as it is now, voting Likud is a very poor choice. I don't say Feiglin must quit the Likud, I just say don't vote Likud, not until Feiglin actually deliver part of his plan of taking over the Likud. As things are right now, it is the Likud that is taking over the Feiglin voting power.
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You know, I don't know. Just thought it was interesting.
He is a good man, he told off Hussein.
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Compared to the Muslims, the entire Jewish contingency of Goldstein, Natan Zeda, and 1 or 2 others, is like the Brady Bunch.
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Baruch Goldstein's attack was not at all random. There was a warning that the Arabs he attacked were going to massacre the Jews of Hebron. They had weapons stored in the mosque, and they were chanting "death to the Jews."
I have heard this said but never seen any evidence of it. The official report on Goldstein says he told nobody about his plans, so who did he allegedly tell of this motive. The reality is that he probably snapped mentally and if he had survived the attack he would have pled diminished capacity at his trial.
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This is correct, and also, even if it was a "random" attack, it still wouldn't make the Jews look like a "bunch of murderous savages", because he's like the only Jew that did something like this. If there are more, there are not many more. Baruch Goldstein is always the one name anti-Semites come up with when they want to paint Jews as murderers on the same level as Muslims or extremists. Compare this to Muslims. Just putting together a random combination of Arabic names will give you a murderer. The founder of their religion was a terrorist who taught his followers to be terrorists. So Jews have a lot of "random" Muslim blood to shed before they can look like the "bunch of murderous savages" that Muslims are. <<
I think supporting people like Goldstein, Popper and Amir (although I have never heard Chaim defend Amir only claim that he was encouraged by a Shin Bet agent) will be an albatross around the neck of JTF or it's Israeli equivalents if it ever does catch on in Israel. I think 95% to 99% of Jews in Israel do not support the random murder of Arab civilians or assassinations against Israeli office holders and never will.
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I have heard this said but never seen any evidence of it. The official report on Goldstein says he told nobody about his plans, so who did he allegedly tell of this motive. The reality is that he probably snapped mentally and if he had survived the attack he would have pled diminished capacity at his trial.
This is written by a person who investigated this incident and had access to the Shamgar Commission, and that was a report written by the Israeli government. Because you seem to believe that the government is most trustowrhty, this should be good for you.
A. On February 21,1994 The Kiryat Arba Town Council near Hebron had an emergency meeting called at short notice by General Mofaz and Brigadier General Kalifi who warned the residents that the Army had concrete evidence that the Arabs were planning a serious attack, and the Jewish medical officers be ready for emergency aid (this referred to Dr. Goldstein as the head medical officer in Kiryat Arba).
B. At the same time a leading Israel newspaper Yediot Aharonot, published a news report before Purim with a report that Hamas forces in Hebron had for days circulated through their terror group Ez a-Adin Alquasam,the murderers who recently had killed the Lapides and other Hebronite Jews, an alert to all Arabs in Hebron to stock up with food and provisions since a great attack on Jews would take place and that it could be expected that, afterwards, the Israeli government would impose a curfew on the Arab population. This all-important clue to the impending Arab pogrom is contained in the Shamgar Report (Page 236): "This being a Friday, the end of the Ramadan holy month, warnings of an attack had been given. There were no grounds for expecting a Jewish attack on Arab worshippers - but to the contrary an attack by the Hamas was expected." The background to these warnings is elaborated on, on page 235 of the Report with a description of the violent and hostile mood of the Arabs and their cries of "Etbach el Yahud".
C. The Report also contains an account (page 139) of the appeal by the Sheikh Tayassar Temimi in the Machpelah to kill Jews, which set the bellicose mood of the Arabs.
D. The Israeli Press (Hatzofeh of February 27th) reported that on the eve of Purim some 2000 Arabs gathered during the time of the reading of the Megillah and shouted the infamous warcry "Etbach el - Yahud" - slaughter the Jews. These blood curdling cries must have shocked and unnerved every Jew and were foreboding for what the Arabs had prepared for the next day. In 1929, too, the pogrom had been preceded by the dreaded warcry. Baruch Goldstein understood full well what was impeding. The Lapids, recent murder victims of the same terror group, had died in his arms.?..
E. At least one witness, Mordechai Sayed, heard from inside the Machpelah that a gun, wrapped in an Arab "kafiye" was found in the Machpelah, proving that the Arabs-far from being peaceful worshippers, were armed for their planned pogrom. The witness to this discovery offered the Shamgar Ccommission to testify about his discovery, but was informed by Commission by their letter to him of April 12, 1994 that "there is no need for your testimony." This refusal is most curious and indicates a preconceived prejudice to rule out evidence of Arab provocations. (No body search was conducted on Arabs entering the Machpelah.)
F. I was shown various personal eye witness accounts describing the threatening position prior to Purim: Carl Bishop, an American visitor with a group from the States, encountered violence at the Machpelah one week before Purim. Betya Cohen, local resident, testified that she heard in the days before Purim Arab appeals by loudspeaker "screaming in flowery language that the Holy Land must be recovered from the evil people (the Jews)." Mrs. E.S., a local resident, testified about the Arab broadcasts before Purim heralding Arab attacks on Jews. When she reported this to the Israeli Army she was told "we know." Similar Arab broadcasts had been heard some weeks before which were followed by the attacks on the Lapides, resulting in killing of 2 of their members. Yisrael Ben Ahron, an Army reservist in Kiryat Arba, testified that he saw Arabs storing food before Purim, and that although the Army knew this, they did nothing about it. Yitshak Matoof, local resident, testified that "Arab storekeepers told me not to come to the Machpelah on Purim as it will not be good for Jews there." Ilan Tor, local resident, who was used to reciting Tehillim every morning in the Machpelah was terrified Purim morning "by fhe Arabs howling 'Slaughter the Jews' and their threatening gestures." Mr. Tor was sure that he would be killed by the Arabs. IDF major D.S. testified before the Shamgar Commission that he was afraid to sleep in his usual place on Purim eve "because he knew that something terrible was going to take place and he wanted to be ready."
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This is written by a person who investigated this incident and had access to the Shamgar Commission, and that was a report written by the Israeli government. Because you seem to believe that the government is most trustowrhty, this should be good for you.
A. On February 21,1994 The Kiryat Arba Town Council near Hebron had an emergency meeting called at short notice by General Mofaz and Brigadier General Kalifi who warned the residents that the Army had concrete evidence that the Arabs were planning a serious attack, and the Jewish medical officers be ready for emergency aid (this referred to Dr. Goldstein as the head medical officer in Kiryat Arba).
B. At the same time a leading Israel newspaper Yediot Aharonot, published a news report before Purim with a report that Hamas forces in Hebron had for days circulated through their terror group Ez a-Adin Alquasam,the murderers who recently had killed the Lapides and other Hebronite Jews, an alert to all Arabs in Hebron to stock up with food and provisions since a great attack on Jews would take place and that it could be expected that, afterwards, the Israeli government would impose a curfew on the Arab population. This all-important clue to the impending Arab pogrom is contained in the Shamgar Report (Page 236): "This being a Friday, the end of the Ramadan holy month, warnings of an attack had been given. There were no grounds for expecting a Jewish attack on Arab worshippers - but to the contrary an attack by the Hamas was expected." The background to these warnings is elaborated on, on page 235 of the Report with a description of the violent and hostile mood of the Arabs and their cries of "Etbach el Yahud".
C. The Report also contains an account (page 139) of the appeal by the Sheikh Tayassar Temimi in the Machpelah to kill Jews, which set the bellicose mood of the Arabs.
D. The Israeli Press (Hatzofeh of February 27th) reported that on the eve of Purim some 2000 Arabs gathered during the time of the reading of the Megillah and shouted the infamous warcry "Etbach el - Yahud" - slaughter the Jews. These blood curdling cries must have shocked and unnerved every Jew and were foreboding for what the Arabs had prepared for the next day. In 1929, too, the pogrom had been preceded by the dreaded warcry. Baruch Goldstein understood full well what was impeding. The Lapids, recent murder victims of the same terror group, had died in his arms.?..
E. At least one witness, Mordechai Sayed, heard from inside the Machpelah that a gun, wrapped in an Arab "kafiye" was found in the Machpelah, proving that the Arabs-far from being peaceful worshippers, were armed for their planned pogrom. The witness to this discovery offered the Shamgar Ccommission to testify about his discovery, but was informed by Commission by their letter to him of April 12, 1994 that "there is no need for your testimony." This refusal is most curious and indicates a preconceived prejudice to rule out evidence of Arab provocations. (No body search was conducted on Arabs entering the Machpelah.)
F. I was shown various personal eye witness accounts describing the threatening position prior to Purim: Carl Bishop, an American visitor with a group from the States, encountered violence at the Machpelah one week before Purim. Betya Cohen, local resident, testified that she heard in the days before Purim Arab appeals by loudspeaker "screaming in flowery language that the Holy Land must be recovered from the evil people (the Jews)." Mrs. E.S., a local resident, testified about the Arab broadcasts before Purim heralding Arab attacks on Jews. When she reported this to the Israeli Army she was told "we know." Similar Arab broadcasts had been heard some weeks before which were followed by the attacks on the Lapides, resulting in killing of 2 of their members. Yisrael Ben Ahron, an Army reservist in Kiryat Arba, testified that he saw Arabs storing food before Purim, and that although the Army knew this, they did nothing about it. Yitshak Matoof, local resident, testified that "Arab storekeepers told me not to come to the Machpelah on Purim as it will not be good for Jews there." Ilan Tor, local resident, who was used to reciting Tehillim every morning in the Machpelah was terrified Purim morning "by fhe Arabs howling 'Slaughter the Jews' and their threatening gestures." Mr. Tor was sure that he would be killed by the Arabs. IDF major D.S. testified before the Shamgar Commission that he was afraid to sleep in his usual place on Purim eve "because he knew that something terrible was going to take place and he wanted to be ready."
I found the website you pulled this from, Manfred Lehman. If you read more carefully, he says that he got most of this information from Goldstein's parents. Now don't get me wrong, from everything I have seen and read, Baruch Goldstein lived an exemplary life until that night and his parents should defend him as any parents would defend their children, even when they are wrong, as I have for my son even when he did not have the cleanest hands in a situation. But do you really think that is an objective look at a situation? I would love to be able to say that what Goldstein did was justified. I am 100% in favor of Jews forcefully defending themselves, from Daniel Pinner, to Avri Ran and Shai Dromi, I think Israelis are insane for punishing Jews who clearly were defending themselves against vicious Arabs. I just don't see any evidence that Goldstein did anything more than snap and shoot a bunch of people.
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Did you read the above? Because it does not seem so.
Did you see that it is cited from the Shamgar Report with page numbers?
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Did you read the above? Because it does not seem so.
Did you see that it is cited from the Shamgar Report with page numbers?<<
Yes I saw the reference to page 139 of an Arab Sheik inciting Arabs. Again you are relying on Mr. Lehman, or Goldstein's parents to interpret this for you. Let's be honest, neither of us have read the Shamgar Report or know what page 139 says. More importantly Goldstein did not shoot this Sheik. Maybe that would have been a better thing.
This kind of analysis is a bit like me meeting with OJ Simpson's mother and reporting back to you that he was innocent because she told me he was and showed me documents which she says indicate he is.
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Did you read the above? Because it does not seem so.
Did you see that it is cited from the Shamgar Report with page numbers?<<
Yes I saw the reference to page 139 of an Arab Sheik inciting Arabs. Again you are relying on Mr. Lehman, or Goldstein's parents to interpret this for you. Let's be honest, neither of us have read the Shamgar Report or know what page 139 says. More importantly Goldstein did not shoot this Sheik. Maybe that would have been a better thing.
This kind of analysis is a bit like me meeting with OJ Simpson's mother and reporting back to you that he was innocent because she told me he was and showed me documents which she says indicate he is.
Once again I have to wonder if you can read analytically. Nowhere does it say he received the document from his parents.
Furthermore, there is more than one reference to the Shamgar report. The fact that you claim that lets me know you did not eve nread this fully. Next time if you wish to criticize something, read the entire passage.
Now you are saying that the writer is a liar. When your argument comes down to calling the other person a liar with no proof for it, it shows that it is wearing thin.
So beyond claiming that Dr. Lehmann being a liar, what mistakes do you find in any of the above stated facts?
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I found the website you pulled this from, Manfred Lehman. If you read more carefully, he says that he got most of this information from Goldstein's parents. Now don't get me wrong, from everything I have seen and read, Baruch Goldstein lived an exemplary life until that night and his parents should defend him as any parents would defend their children, even when they are wrong, as I have for my son even when he did not have the cleanest hands in a situation. But do you really think that is an objective look at a situation? I would love to be able to say that what Goldstein did was justified. I am 100% in favor of Jews forcefully defending themselves, from Daniel Pinner, to Avri Ran and Shai Dromi, I think Israelis are insane for punishing Jews who clearly were defending themselves against vicious Arabs. I just don't see any evidence that Goldstein did anything more than snap and shoot a bunch of people.
The Israeli govt has a history of politicizing events like this. Their "commisions" are not really to "investigate" and explain what really happened, they are designed to present what happened into a particular package that suits their political goals. The idea of the shamgar commission turning away testimony that could potentially go against their "story" and provide a new perspective is not a surprise in the least. Do you think the parents made up all these details, including names of eyewitnesses, and things they fished out of the commission report, (ie, things people can check) just to defend their son? He was already dead, and there was no trial to get him a reduced sentence.
I did not know this evidence existed.
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Here is another source.
http://www.angelfire.com/anime5/danilin/PodeUmatzil.htm
"Baruch HaGever."
This was translated by David Cohen into English, originally published by Michael Ben-Horin. He notes in the intro that Dr. Haim Simons in the days of the Shamgar commission was the one reviewing the details and testimonies/information from the commission, it seems he is their main source.
The author was "indicted" for dedicating (trying to publish it anyway) a book to Baruch Goldstein. It ended up published a year after the events.
Michael Ben-Horin was a close friend of Baruch Goldstein, and the book has the approval of his parents and widow.
I haven't read this yet, but throwing this out there.
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Here is another perspective from "Obadiah Shoher" of "samsonblinded" blog
http://samsonblinded.org/blog/?p=667
I am rather surprised to see that, according to him, the Arabs really did carry out the pogrom afterward, according to Shoher. He says 9 Jews were murdered in it. Is this so?
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Here is another perspective from "Obadiah Shoher" of "samsonblinded" blog
http://samsonblinded.org/blog/?p=667
I am rather surprised to see that, according to him, the Arabs really did carry out the pogrom afterward, according to Shoher. He says 9 Jews were murdered in it. Is this so?
Yes, he holds to some of the theories that claim that the Shabak was involved. This is very believable, as there were testimonies by soldiers that another man walked in with a Galil rifle behind Baruch Goldstein.
Furthermore, in the shamgar report, the soldiers on duty at the MAchpela admitted that they killed sic Arabs outside because the Arabs were threatening and going crazy.
It makes you wonder how many people the army and Shabak actually killed on that day. Also, if the Arabs were so peaceful, as Peres and his ilk always claim, why would the soldiers have to kill them fearing for their lives, and why were the soldiers let off the charges if the Arabs were so peaceful? Clearly the government knows the Arabs were planning a pogrom.
And if the soldiers got off in self-defense, why couldn't Goldstein shoot in self-defense?
Secularbeliever would rather have his head in the sand. When given cold hard facts and witness testimony, all he can say is that everyone is lying, and that Mr. Lehmann never saw the report but made everything up.
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Secularbeliever would rather have his head in the sand. When given cold hard facts and witness testimony, all he can say is that everyone is lying, and that Mr. Lehmann never saw the report but made everything up
For the record I am not accusing anyone of lying. I think people are interpreting facts in a way that supports the conclusion they already wanted to come to. It is a very common tendency people have and a very easy trap to fall into. The next guy used as confirming the report begins by telling us that Yigal Amir is innocent also. Yigal Amir himself does not deny that he shot Rabin yet it is all a Shabak conspiracy as apparently is what Goldstein did also. Now we are wandering down into Barry Chamish territory which is a neighborhood I prefer to stay away from.
As I have said before I have tremendous sympathy for Goldstein. He was my age and a former JDL guy from Brooklyn as I am. If I thought what he did was justifiable I would be defending him as I have Shai Dromi and Daniel Pinner. In the 1980s I was supporting Sharon over the so called massacre at the Sabra and Shatilla camps in Lebanon.
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Secularbeliever would rather have his head in the sand. When given cold hard facts and witness testimony, all he can say is that everyone is lying, and that Mr. Lehmann never saw the report but made everything up
For the record I am not accusing anyone of lying. I think people are interpreting facts in a way that supports the conclusion they already wanted to come to. It is a very common tendency people have and a very easy trap to fall into. The next guy used as confirming the report begins by telling us that Yigal Amir is innocent also. Yigal Amir himself does not deny that he shot Rabin yet it is all a Shabak conspiracy as apparently is what Goldstein did also. Now we are wandering down into Barry Chamish territory which is a neighborhood I prefer to stay away from.
As I have said before I have tremendous sympathy for Goldstein. He was my age and a former JDL guy from Brooklyn as I am. If I thought what he did was justifiable I would be defending him as I have Shai Dromi and Daniel Pinner. In the 1980s I was supporting Sharon over the so called massacre at the Sabra and Shatilla camps in Lebanon.
Once again, please read the article in question more closely. This is the second time you have mischaracterized its contents, whether out of insolence or just stubornness.
Dr. Lehman IS NOT interpreting anything. He is quoting passages verbatim, with testimony from people. It is YOU who is interpreting the facts how you want. If you looked at my above post, I don't necessarily believe Dr. Lehmann's full theory, but I cannot deny the facts that state that the Arabs behaviour leading up to the shooting showed signs of an upcoming riot and pogrom.
As well, if you cannot differentiate the great differences between Barry Chamish's theory and Dr. Lehmann's theory, then you have not read deeply into either.
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For the record I am not accusing anyone of lying. I think people are interpreting facts in a way that supports the conclusion they already wanted to come to.
Can you be specific? Who is doing so? And what facts exactly are being falsely "interpreted" ? And how would you rather interpret them? What conclusion are "they" supporting that they already came to, and why did they come to it? If you clarify your points instead of painting such broad strokes, this conversation can be meaningful. Otherwise it is just myself Yochai and others pointing out sources, and you expressing your "general doubts" about them. General doubts are like an "opinion." Arbitrary and not very useful to a discussion about facts and events. I don't think you refer to me, btw, but in case you do, you should know that my mind is not made up about that case.
The next guy used as confirming the report
What guy? What report? Please use detail and be specific so we can have a real discussion instead of just throwing darts at a wall in a blindfold.
begins by telling us that Yigal Amir is innocent also.
Innocent of what exactly? Where does he state this? If you refer to Shoher, he actually said that Amir raised his hand to shoot the PM, even if he didn't actually do it ( I believe he claims there WERE blanks in the gun). That doesn't translate as "innocent" if by innocent you mean "did not do anything." I'm not sure what you mean. THe general story by the govt is that raviv gave Amir a gun with blanks to do a staged "assassination attempt" (supposed to fail and set up amir to be caught) but that Amir realized and put real bullets in and then shot the PM. Shoher and others do claim that it WAS a gun with blanks used by Amir. While others say he really did put bullets in. Care to point out some facts or reasons why you believe one way or the other, or why people should accept one version or the other? I personally have not seen enough evidence one way or the other to decide.
Yigal Amir himself does not deny that he shot Rabin yet it is all a Shabak conspiracy as apparently is what Goldstein did also. Now we are wandering down into Barry Chamish territory which is a neighborhood I prefer to stay away from.
Yigal Amir has the luxury to be able to defend himself and say what he did or didn't do. Baruch Goldstein does not. I don't think you should compare these two situations. Chamish may be crazy, but he uncovered a lot of uncomfortable information about the Rabin assassination. But what does Goldstein's case have to do with it? If something sounds "chamish-like" we should run and hide? That's rather silly.