JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: SW on October 06, 2009, 10:45:46 AM
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Yousef Falay, an extremist rabbi living in Yitzhar settlement in the West Bank called on the Israeli government to kill all Palestinian males over the age of 13 who refuse to flee the country, hoping this would end the presence of the Palestinian race.
Rabbi Meir Kahane who started the Kach movement also called for "the transfer of Israel's Arab population to Arab (or other) lands". His words inspired people like Baruch Goldstein, an Israeli known for opening fire on civilians in a mosque in Hebron.
The concept of exterminating or transferring Palestinians was not only embraced by fanatics and their follower. Israeli politicians have also called for race-related transfers and ethnic cleansing publicly and without apologising.
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=57329
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Is this for real?
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Wait, fakestinians are a race now? Who knew. A different species perhaps but not a race.
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Wait, fakestinians are a race now? Who knew. A different species perhaps but not a race.
:laugh:
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A statement like that is just plain stupid to make. It would never happen. The traitorous Israeli government would sooner kill Jews first. But transfering Arabs out of Israel, now that makes good sense, and can happen with the right leadership.
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..to kill all Palestinian males over the age of 13 who refuse to flee the country, hoping this would end the presence of the Palestinian race. ...
It's an interesting point. But I would transform all Palestinians and Muslims at all. Those who won't should be slayed.
Of course Israel should do it undercover because the world would blame the Jews and the evil evil Zionists for it.
That's my point of view.
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Ouch, that hurts.
Btw, I liked that comment:
"This man hasnt won any elections, neither have his fellows.
Both Hamas and Hezbollah have elected government officials.
According to wiki, the Israeli gov lists them as aproscribed terrorist organisation.
Additional, the Israelis foiled a plan by kach to blow up the Al-Aqsa mosque.
This man doesnt speak for Israel, and his fellows have been jailed by Israel, can we say the same about Hezbolah or Hammas, who's suicide bombers are laued as hero's.
Its easy to tar the palestinians as terrorists, when there suicide bombers are given victory parades attended by tens of thousands,
Much harder to do the same to the Israelis, who activly foil and jail the Israeli based terrorists.
Lets see whats there, not what we want to see."
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A statement like that is just plain stupid to make. It would never happen. The traitorous Israeli government would sooner kill Jews first. But transfering Arabs out of Israel, now that makes good sense, and can happen with the right leadership.
I'm against that statement. There were minorities living among jews here long time ago, and don't forget that christians (like me) also lived here. "cleaning" the country by transfering every non-jew from it sounds more like ... no offense ... nazism, and even more unfair. There are many other ways to "clean" the country with.
Every man and woman who admits the existence of Israel and willingly serve it with all faith and sincerity and make peace, have full rights to stay here and be treated equally like the rest of the majority. Now, with this being said, 99% of muslims won't be able to follow this, and should be treated like they are breaking the law, and be dealt with - maybe arrange a transfer THEN. But still, I'm not sure. most christian arabs, with good leadership, will be able to follow these rules, because they know, any arabic country with a majority of muslims will meet them with persecution. That's why the christian arabs who REJECT to respect Israel and back up the muslims, are just ignorant christians nothing more, nothing less.
Atleast that's the way I see it, might be wrong, who knows, you can never be sure 100% of the right thing to do.
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Ouch, that hurts.
Btw, I liked that comment:
"This man hasnt won any elections, neither have his fellows.
Both Hamas and Hezbollah have elected government officials.
According to wiki, the Israeli gov lists them as aproscribed terrorist organisation.
Additional, the Israelis foiled a plan by kach to blow up the Al-Aqsa mosque.
This man doesnt speak for Israel, and his fellows have been jailed by Israel, can we say the same about Hezbolah or Hammas, who's suicide bombers are laued as hero's.
Its easy to tar the palestinians as terrorists, when there suicide bombers are given victory parades attended by tens of thousands,
Much harder to do the same to the Israelis, who activly foil and jail the Israeli based terrorists.
Lets see whats there, not what we want to see."
Forget all that. Let's just get the Arabs transferred out of Israel. Not sure if you're an Arab, no offense to you. But Arabs need to exit Israel. It's just how things have to go.
And God willing it will go that way.
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A statement like that is just plain stupid to make. It would never happen. The traitorous Israeli government would sooner kill Jews first. But transfering Arabs out of Israel, now that makes good sense, and can happen with the right leadership.
Every man and woman who admits the existence of Israel and willingly serve it with all faith and sincerity and make peace, have full rights to stay here and be treated equally like the rest of the majority. Now, with this being said, 99% of muslims won't be able to follow this, and should be treated like they are breaking the law, and be dealt with - maybe arrange a transfer THEN. But still, I'm not sure. most christian arabs, with good leadership, will be able to follow these rules, because they know, any arabic country with a majority of muslims will meet them with persecution.
I agree with you. I don't know where the numbers will fall (how many christians side with the moslems and how many side with loyalty to Israel), but you're right that the loyal ones should be allowed to stay, and Rabbi Kahane always preached this. There are some loyal ones who do not want Israel destroyed.
That's why the christian arabs who REJECT to respect Israel and back up the muslims, are just ignorant christians nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, they are very ignorant, and also brainwashed. Unfortunately their numbers may be higher than you think. It seems many christian arabs tend to sympathize with the moslem arab hatred of Israel (even those who emigrate to western countries and should know better, they still choose to fault the Jews for their emigration, rather than the Muslim violence that in most cases forced them to leave).
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I dont want to exterminate anyone. The muslim arabs must be removed from Israel, but extermination is not the way. Those non-Jews who can live peacefully within the Jewish state should be allowed to do so.
Listen to Rabbi Shafier talk about the roots of the problem with Muslims in Israel:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/1464
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I haven't heard of this rabbi nor this statement before and I don't trust the source. Even the transliteration of the name to "Yousesf" is very odd, in Hebrew we say "Yosef" but the Arab equivalent is "Yousuf", so it seems like some Arab hoax.
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I dont want to exterminate anyone. The muslim arabs must be removed from Israel, but extermination is not the way. Those non-Jews who can live peacefully within the Jewish state should be allowed to do so.
Listen to Rabbi Shafier talk about the roots of the problem with Muslims in Israel:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/1464
Why shouldn't the Arabs who want all Jews dead, which is more than 99% of them, be wiped out? I concede it is not possible, but why shouldn't they be?
What did G-d command Israel to do to the Amorites and Amalekites, who were less evil than the Arabs of today?
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I dont want to exterminate anyone. The muslim arabs must be removed from Israel, but extermination is not the way. Those non-Jews who can live peacefully within the Jewish state should be allowed to do so.
Listen to Rabbi Shafier talk about the roots of the problem with Muslims in Israel:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/1464
Why shouldn't the Arabs who want all Jews dead, which is more than 99% of them, be wiped out? I concede it is not possible, but why shouldn't they be?
I agree with Bones Fan. But Lets just get them out of Israel, much better chance of that happening with the right leadership.
What did G-d command Israel to do to the Amorites and Amalekites, who were less evil than the Arabs of today?
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I dont want to exterminate anyone. The muslim arabs must be removed from Israel, but extermination is not the way. Those non-Jews who can live peacefully within the Jewish state should be allowed to do so.
Listen to Rabbi Shafier talk about the roots of the problem with Muslims in Israel:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/1464
Why shouldn't the Arabs who want all Jews dead, which is more than 99% of them, be wiped out? I concede it is not possible, but why shouldn't they be?
What did G-d command Israel to do to the Amorites and Amalekites, who were less evil than the Arabs of today?
I don't know if your claim that 99% of all 'Arabs' want Jews dead. But those who want to kill Jews certainly should suffer the fate they wish on us. The problem is that when anyone 'exterminates' other people. The Jewish people have been subjagated by every other nation and they have all attempted to exterminate us.
It is true that we will certainly defeat Amalek. I just don't know if these kinds of things will do anything but incite further hatred of the Jewish people, by the nations and by Jews who read this.
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I dont want to exterminate anyone. The muslim arabs must be removed from Israel, but extermination is not the way. Those non-Jews who can live peacefully within the Jewish state should be allowed to do so.
Listen to Rabbi Shafier talk about the roots of the problem with Muslims in Israel:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/1464
Why shouldn't the Arabs who want all Jews dead, which is more than 99% of them, be wiped out? I concede it is not possible, but why shouldn't they be?
What did G-d command Israel to do to the Amorites and Amalekites, who were less evil than the Arabs of today?
We no longer get direct orders from God so I don't think we should be that harsh just based on our own judgment.
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This rabbi needs to phone God and get that plague of the firstborn going. Chop chop! ;D
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The Jewish people have been subjagated by every other nation and they have all attempted to exterminate us.
Not quite sure that I would agree with that. Most nations have some anti-Semitism on their hands, although a few don't, owing to no contact with Jews, and a very small few have genuinely respected and tolerated Jews, like the Serbs.
Even within those who are generally anti-Semitic, there are shades. Some people don't care for Jews very much but don't actually want them dead. I don't think realistically we can seek to punish every single one of those (some might even be reachable). Others are full-blown Nazis.
I think that it's pretty clear that some people are the worst of the worst, such as the ancient Amorites, WWII Germans, and Arabs. They deserve everything that they gave to the Jews in the Shoah and more.
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If the Jews in Israel would start to act like the muslims here in Holland those dirty goat-lovers would leave themselves.
Any decent country should deport muslims. Islam is a spiritual cancer which distorts your genes on all levels if you convert.
Deporting muslims and keeping them in quarantine is the only solution. Interbreeding is not done. Even generations later some bad screw-up can still pop out.
EDIT: Please, let's keep it clean.
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If the Jews in Israel would start to act like the muslims here in Holland those dirty goat-lovers would leave themselves.
Any decent country should deport muslims. Islam is a spiritual cancer which distorts your genes on all levels if you convert.
Deporting muslims and keeping them in quarantine is the only solution. Interbreeding is not done. Even generations later some bad screw-up can still pop out.
Watch the profanity
EDIT: Quote modified.
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If the Jews in Israel would start to act like the muslims here in Holland those dirty goat-lovers would leave themselves.
Have to agree with Americanhero, watch it. You can easily edit it to say "goatrapists".
EDIT: Quote modified.
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Every man and woman who admits the existence of Israel and willingly serve it with all faith and sincerity and make peace, have full rights to stay here and be treated equally like the rest of the majority. Now, with this being said, 99% of muslims won't be able to follow this, and should be treated like they are breaking the law, and be dealt with - maybe arrange a transfer <<
I think the best public approach for Jewish nationalists is to say that no person who is willing to live peacefully with his neighbors should be forced from their homes. This more than definitely includes Jews in outposts as well as the rest of Judea and Samaria. Arabs, and other non Jews, who accept Israel as a Jewish state and wish to live peacefully within the land of Israel as good neighbors are welcome to do so. Of course those who oppose Israel are more than welcome to leave.
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Nobody at JTF, including myself, has ever advocated that the tiny handful of non-Nazi Arabs should have to leave.
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This is bs. I doubt anyone can prove the existance of "Yousef Falay."
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Not that I disagree with the premise, but why is it that when I google this rabbi's name all I see are links to anti-Semitic sites? This is probably just Arab propaganda. Yousef is an Arabic (a.k.a. corrupted) version of the Jewish name Yosef.
Yeah, hence my very first post was "For real?".
I would be surprised to see a well-known rabbi actually advocate the Joshua solution, both because of political correctness, and because it is a severe crime in Israel (even though Arabs are legally allowed to call for a second Shoah).
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I will have to agree with Dan Ben Noah and Moshe...honestly I believe it's more arab muslim propanganda. You all must remember the one trait arab muslims share, they are crooked beyond repair and they have mastered the art of lying through this type of propanganda.
In reality it is the palestinians who want to kill off every Jew alive, women and children included.
So they transfer their wishes and schemes under someone else's religion/name ( The Jews ) to make their victims appear as the enemy. This evil method has worked for them so far to make more enemies for Israel.
Shalom - Dox
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This is talking about Muslims correct not Christians.No suicide bombers in Israel have been Christian
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Ha. Fanatic for a population transfer? Pakistan and India did it and the world applauded it
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I have to tell you i can't find this Rabbi on any real site only by the extreme leftists and anti Jewish sites.I doubt there is such a person
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=ytff4-sunm&p=Yousef%20Falay
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I have to tell you i can't find this Rabbi on any real site only by the extreme leftists and anti Jewish sites.I doubt there is such a person
That could be. I just found it and thought it could be interesting.
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I have to tell you i can't find this Rabbi on any real site only by the extreme leftists and anti Jewish sites.I doubt there is such a person
That could be. I just found it and thought it could be interesting.
It is but i agree almost all Jews were kicked out of Muslim countries so kick muslims out of Israel
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I have to tell you i can't find this Rabbi on any real site only by the extreme leftists and anti Jewish sites.I doubt there is such a person
That could be. I just found it and thought it could be interesting.
It is but i agree almost all Jews were kicked out of Muslim countries so kick muslims out of Israel
Of course we need to kick all of them out of Israel!
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This is definitely Arab propaganda designed to smear the Jews of Judea and Samaria. http://www.imemc.org is an antisemitic site that spreads lies about Israel. It is offline now, but if google this address, you'll see a load of antisemitic Goebbels-style slander.
Also, I agree with people who mentioned the name "Yousef". It betrays the Arab origin of the authors of the article who are not only evil but extremely stupid too.
I wonder how some people at this forum could take this dirty provocation seriously.
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Wait, fakestinians are a race now? Who knew. A different species perhaps but not a race.
They're not a race, they're not even a people. They're just a bunch of filthy rat Arabs.
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It is true that we will certainly defeat Amalek. I just don't know if these kinds of things will do anything but incite further hatred of the Jewish people, by the nations and by Jews who read this.
Most people respect strength, and toughness. Not weakness.
Arabs don't belong in Israel because they refuse to recognize it as a Jewish state and most are rabid Jew haters. The difference between the Rabbi in the story and Chaim's position is that Chaim wants to pay them to leave (carrot) and the Rabbi in the story wants to kill them if they don't (stick). Maybe there's a compromise here? They both want the Arabs out of Israel.
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It is true that we will certainly defeat Amalek. I just don't know if these kinds of things will do anything but incite further hatred of the Jewish people, by the nations and by Jews who read this.
Most people respect strength, and toughness. Not weakness.
Arabs don't belong in Israel because they refuse to recognize it as a Jewish state and most are rabid Jew haters. The difference between the Rabbi in the story and Chaim's position is that Chaim wants to pay them to leave (carrot) and the Rabbi in the story wants to kill them if they don't (stick). Maybe there's a compromise here? They both want the Arabs out of Israel.
RS,
Of course we want to remove the arabs from Israel because they have proven to be the enemy. But the solution is not genocide or extermination. They can be removed or they can die fighting Israel. There is no need to engage in the kind of evil which nazi germany engaged in.
The Jewish way is the best way to accomplish the goal of making Israel safe for the Jews. We must remain strong to fight the enemy. We do not gain anything by acting evil and mimiking the evil acts of other nations.
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They can be removed or they can die fighting Israel. There is no need to engage in the kind of evil which nazi germany engaged in.
The Jewish way is the best way to accomplish the goal of making Israel safe for the Jews. We must remain strong to fight the enemy. We do not gain anything by acting evil and mimiking the evil acts of other nations.
Muman,
I understand that you are a nicer guy than myself, but ex-freakin' 'scuse me? Obeying the Bible's commandments on Amalek, such as Deuteronomy 7:1-2, is "the kind of evil that Nazi Germany engaged in"? :o
I know that in this generation Jews are not capable of wiping out Amalek owing to political realities, but still, are you kidding me? You cannot do "evil" to evil people. It is a logical fallacy. Evil people deserve a fate that is far worse than anything than any human being can mete out, hell. Therefore nothing that we humans can do to Nazis comes even close to what they deserve, let alone exceeds it.
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Muman,
I understand that you are a nicer guy than myself, but ex-freakin' 'scuse me? Obeying the Bible's commandments on Amalek, such as Deuteronomy 7:1-2, is "the kind of evil that Nazi Germany engaged in"? :o
I know that in this generation Jews are not capable of wiping out Amalek owing to political realities, but still, are you kidding me? You cannot do "evil" to evil people. It is a logical fallacy. Evil people deserve a fate that is far worse than anything than any human being can mete out, hell. Therefore nothing that we humans can do to Nazis comes even close to what they deserve, let alone exceeds it.
Bones please, you know we've already discussed that Amalek origin of present-day Arabs is not proved, to say the least. Let the Jews determinite who is Amalek and who is not. Better come to the Truth about Islam section, there is a funny debate with a Christian convert to Islam, I'm sure you'll like it :)
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Muman,
I understand that you are a nicer guy than myself, but ex-freakin' 'scuse me? Obeying the Bible's commandments on Amalek, such as Deuteronomy 7:1-2, is "the kind of evil that Nazi Germany engaged in"? :o
I know that in this generation Jews are not capable of wiping out Amalek owing to political realities, but still, are you kidding me? You cannot do "evil" to evil people. It is a logical fallacy. Evil people deserve a fate that is far worse than anything than any human being can mete out, hell. Therefore nothing that we humans can do to Nazis comes even close to what they deserve, let alone exceeds it.
Bones please, you know we've already discussed that Amalek origin of present-day Arabs is not proved, to say the least. Let the Jews determinite who is Amalek and who is not. Better come to the Truth about Islam section, there is a funny debate with a Christian convert to Islam, I'm sure you'll like it :)
The guy is not a convert because if he was he is an ignoranimous.
He knows jack squat about the religion he turned his back on.
Which means he was never really a member of that religion to begin with
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Muman,
I understand that you are a nicer guy than myself, but ex-freakin' 'scuse me? Obeying the Bible's commandments on Amalek, such as Deuteronomy 7:1-2, is "the kind of evil that Nazi Germany engaged in"? :o
I know that in this generation Jews are not capable of wiping out Amalek owing to political realities, but still, are you kidding me? You cannot do "evil" to evil people. It is a logical fallacy. Evil people deserve a fate that is far worse than anything than any human being can mete out, hell. Therefore nothing that we humans can do to Nazis comes even close to what they deserve, let alone exceeds it.
Bones please, you know we've already discussed that Amalek origin of present-day Arabs is not proved, to say the least. Let the Jews determinite who is Amalek and who is not. Better come to the Truth about Islam section, there is a funny debate with a Christian convert to Islam, I'm sure you'll like it :)
Yes Spectator,
We have discussed this about Amalek before. At this time we don't know who Amalek is... We do know who Ishmael and who Essau/Edom is though...
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The Vilna Gaon, who Ha Rav Meir Kahane (zt"l) based almost all his opinions on, stated that any sworn enemy of the Jews in any generation is Amalek.
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The Vilna Gaon, who Ha Rav Meir Kahane (zt"l) based almost all his opinions on, stated that any sworn enemy of the Jews in any generation is Amalek.
It needs to be checked in which context he said this. I am almost sure that by saying that he wanted to warn the Jews to leave Europe where Amalek tendentions were gaining power and the danger of extermination was rising. I know for sure he strongly advocated aliya to the Land of Israel.
The problem with this commandment is that you must know for sure who is Amalek and who is not at personal level, not the level of group. If there are 10 people before you and you know 9 of them are Amalek and 1 is not and you can't distinguish that innoncent one, you cannot kill anyone of those 10. Judaism teaches that you cannot fulfill a commandent by breaching another one. In this case, you would breach the commandment "You shall not murder".
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I just think it's useless talk, because it's never going to happen. It just makes religious jews sound crazy. (It's a nice thought, though). However, the traitorous Israeli government would sooner exterminate Jews than Palestinians.
The only talk that makes sense is Arab transfer. Anything else is a waste of time. Just my opinion- for what it's worth.
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I just think it's useless talk, because it's never going to happen. It just makes religious jews sound crazy. (It's a nice thought, though). However, the traitorous Israeli government would sooner exterminate Jews than Palestinians.
The only talk that makes sense is Arab transfer. Anything else is a waste of time. Just my opinion- for what it's worth.
You are 100% right. And in the current conditions, the very fact the the topic "Jewish Rabbi: Exterminate all Palestinian Males" is almost sticky at the Jewish forum for many hours, can only harm us. Specifically, it smears the heroic Jews of Judea and Samaria. One thing is when our enemies suspect us in the things that we must do (like expel the Jew-haters form the Jewish land), and another one when the issue is about the things that are not in line with the Jewish faith.
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The Vilna Gaon, who Ha Rav Meir Kahane (zt"l) based almost all his opinions on, stated that any sworn enemy of the Jews in any generation is Amalek.
Your statement is part correct and part mistaken, I think.
The Vilna Gaon,
who Ha Rav Meir Kahane (zt"l) based almost all his opinions on,
While Rav Kahane certainly drew from the incredible wisdom of the Vilna Gaon, it is not true (to my understanding) that he "based almost all his opinions" on the Gaon. I'm not sure it can be said that Rabbi Kahane based almost all his opinions on any single Torah authority. His parsha talks and articles seemed rather ecclectic to me, which I think is a huge strength.
That being said
The Vilna Gaon,
stated that any sworn enemy of the Jews in any generation is Amalek.
Yes. And Chaim has repeated this opinion of the Vilna Gaon several times on the ask JTF program. I think there was another authority who also held this opinion. The Gaon said that any nation that makes war against the Jewish people takes on the identity of Amalek. Yup, no escaping the facts.
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What about what Chaim always talks about, about those who are kind to the cruel will be cruel to the kind?
The Nazis murdered innocent people, and murder is different than killing in self defense. Wasn't the commandment that you shall not murder, not that you shall not kill? Israel has a hostile group inside its borders. Israel should defend itself.
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I just think it's useless talk, because it's never going to happen. It just makes religious jews sound crazy. (It's a nice thought, though). However, the traitorous Israeli government would sooner exterminate Jews than Palestinians.
The only talk that makes sense is Arab transfer. Anything else is a waste of time. Just my opinion- for what it's worth.
You are 100% right. And in the current conditions, the very fact the the topic "Jewish Rabbi: Exterminate all Palestinian Males" is almost sticky at the Jewish forum for many hours, can only harm us. Specifically, it smears the heroic Jews of Judea and Samaria. One thing is when our enemies suspect us in the things that we must do (like expel the Jew-haters form the Jewish land), and another one when the issue is about the things that are not in line with the Jewish faith.
I think the title of the thread should be edited. AT LEAST put quotation marks around "palestinian" since there is no such adjective. But perhaps also describe it honestly, that this is 'arab hoax site claims: .... etc"
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OK, correction, he for the most part based himself around the Vilna Gaon. He definitely based his views on Arabs and Amalek on the Vilna's.
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What about what Chaim always talks about, about those who are kind to the cruel will be cruel to the kind?
The Nazis murdered innocent people, and murder is different than killing in self defense. Wasn't the commandment that you shall not murder, not that you shall not kill? Israel has a hostile group inside its borders. Israel should defend itself.
This is true... The command is "Thou Shall Not Murder". This is different from killing. Murder is killing someone {or causing death to one} who does not deserve to die according to the law.
If it is true that anyone who kills Jews is Amalek then we should have risen and killed the Inquisitors and Crusaders too... They deserved to die... And why haven't we eliminated all Germans from the planet?
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Since we are discussing Amalek let us get some background information:
http://www.torah.org/learning/yomtov/purim/vol5no17.html
Amalek - Blinded by Nature
by Rabbi Yehudah Prero
"And this (calling out and trumpeting when tragedies befall the nation) is from along the paths of repentance. At a time when tragedies occur and they call out about it and trumpet, all then know that because of their evil deeds, the suffering came . . . and this is to cause them to remove the suffering from upon them. However, if they do not call out and they do not herald the suffering, but they say this is natural event, an occurrence in the course of the world, and this suffering just happened, this attitude is from the path of brazenness and causes them to cling to their evil ways, and additional tragedies will occur. . . ." (Hilchos Ta'anios 1:2-3)
The Rambam (Maimonides) in the passage cited sets forth the fashion in which G-d deals with His creations. There is a system of cause and effect. To the untrained eye, it appears that the whole world operates on action and reaction, cause and effect. One event triggers another, a certain choice results in a specific action. It is possible to attribute all that happens in one's life to this series of events that appear to be part and parcel of nature. A person, therefore, may take precautionary actions, choices to prevent a negative turn of events in the course of nature. A person's whole life may be centered on positioning himself so that he only benefits from life, and is spared the suffering nature casts upon others. If a person does live such a life, he is enslaved to nature. He has fallen into the trap that the Rambam describes: if a person writes off the possibility of divine intervention, and believes wholly in himself, he will cling to his evil ways. G-d will act with him accordingly.
A person does have the ability to detect G-d's presence in the world. He can comprehend that G-d is the One who causes the cause and effects the effect. G-d causes the existence of the world and sustains it. When a person lives with this principal as central to his being, he can appreciate the role of divine providence, the heavenly role in "nature," and react properly, as the Rambam says, to that which may befall him.
The Medrash (Bereshis 63:8) writes "AND THEY CALLED HIS NAME ESAV (Bereshis 25:25). It is for nothing, for falsehood, ("shav") that I created him in My universe." Rav Gedalia Schorr explains that in the creation of the world, G-d fashioned a creation that has no rational connection to reality. The foundation of this creation is the belief in the happenstance. This creation, which negates G-d's existence and focuses on the battle versus that which "nature" has wrought, is Esav, primarily his descendant Amalek. Amalek epitomizes the belief in nature. The Amalekite attack on the nation of Israel right after their departure from Egypt is described (25:18) as " How he (Amalek) happened' upon you by the way. . . " Amalek is a nation that does not recognize G-d and His power.
Amalek's power over the nation of Israel exists only when the nation of Israel itself fails to recognize G-d. The Talmud (Rosh HaShana 29a) writes: "[It is written] and it came to pass, when Moshe held up his hand that Israel prevailed (in the battle against Amalek).' Now, did the hands of Moshe wage war or crush the enemy? Not so; rather, the text signifies that so long as Israel turned their thoughts above and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven they prevailed, but otherwise they fell." During the battle against Amalek, when the nation of Israel saw the hands of Moshe outstretched towards the heavens, they realized that it was G-d who was going to dictate the victor of this battle. Amalek attacked the weak stragglers, hitting the nation at its most vulnerable point. Nature should have ordained that the nation of Israel was doomed. However, when the nation remembered G-d and prayed to Him, when they recognized His providence, G-d gave them the strength to overcome. And overcome they did.
Amalek demonstrated their disbelief in divine providence when they attacked the nation of Israel. The entire world had heard of the miraculous exodus of the nation of Israel from Egypt. Word of the plagues and the splitting of the sea had spread. The nations of the world feared the nation of Israel, who clearly had divine protection. Amalek dared to attack, nonetheless. They disregarded all the miracles. They dismissed any notion of divine protection. And they attacked. This was an unequivocal statement by the nation of Amalek that G-d has no role in the workings of the world. This was a pronouncement of Amalek's firm belief in the sole dependency upon one's own actions for success. This underlying belief of the nation of Amalek flies in the face of reality. It is a falsehood. Falsehood can not be tolerated.
Amalek, the descendant of Esav, is the nation of falsehood. The nation of Israel is commanded to eradicate the nation of Amalek because this falsehood can not exist. Random happenstance does not exist in the world. It is merely the product of the imagination, a superficial method of explaining away events. Amalek's entire existence is based on the non-existent. Therefore, we are to treat Amalek as they believe: we treat them as if they are a freak of nature, an anomaly never intended to exist, and therefore, under the laws of nature, subject to destruction, relegated to the realm of nothingness. Not even the memory of the nation of Amalek should exist.
The holiday of Purim is centered on recognizing divine providence (See I:66, III:29, 30). The villain of the Purim story, Haman, was from the nation of Amalek. Haman did all the right things, as far as nature goes, to ensure the destruction of the nation of Israel. However, he failed to recognize, as did his forefathers, that G-d is running the show. Haman was defeated by those he thought were doomed. He and his entire family were wiped out. His downfall was his belief system. And as the Rambam states, we have to assure that we do not meet the same fate.
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More on Amalek and Jewish law:
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/highlights-of-moshiach/05.htm
The eradication of Amalek (one of the 613 Commandments), in the physical sense, is not possible today. Some Authorities hold that this mitzvah is binding only upon the Jewish King, and that he must enlist the Jewish people to wipe out Amalek's kin.[16] Today, however, we do not have a Jewish King.
Thus, Sefer Yereim states[17]:
The mitzvah to eradicate Amalek is relegated only to the King and not to all Jews. This is seen in the verse,[18] "G-d swore by His throne" alluding to the throne of Kingship (i.e. when there will be a Jewish King) - then "G-d will have war with Amalek."
SMAG[19] also concurs with this:
This mitzvah applies only in the days of Moshiach, after the full conquest of Israel. Hence, today, when we have no Jewish King, this mitzvah is not in effect.
Ramban, too, confirms this Halachic viewpoint3:
When there will be a Jewish King sitting upon G-d's throne, he will then battle against Amalek ... for every Jewish King is obligated to battle against Amalek's kin until they are fully decimated. The Rambam also rules[20]:
The King wages a mitzvah battle ... and the battle against Amalek.
Sefer HaChinuch,[21] however, writes that this mitzvah is binding upon the entire Jewish community.
Yet, even according to those who opine that this mitzvah was given to all Jews, it is still not feasible today to eradicate Amalek in the physical sense, because:
1. This act is possible only when Jews are fully in control (and not dependent upon other nations - which is not the case today).
2. This mitzvah is effective only when we know for sure who belongs to, and descends from, Amalek's kin. Since Sancherib of Babylon came and mixed up the world, causing massive confusion among all ethnic identities,[22] therefore, we assume that no one comes from Amalek.
Only when Moshiach comes, at which time Jews will have full power and autonomy, and it will be clearly defined who descends from Amalek's kin, Moshiach will then eradicate all aspects of Amalek en toto[23] - "male and female."
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Of course the Inquisitors and Crusaders all deserved to die, but Jews simply did not have the power to fight back against them at that time. Now they do (at least against the Arabs).
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Of course the Inquisitors and Crusaders all deserved to die, but Jews simply did not have the power to fight back against them at that time. Now they do (at least against the Arabs).
I am all for the fight against the enemy... I just am waiting to hear from the sages of Jewish thought that this enemy is indeed the Amalek we need to wipe out... If this is found to be true then we are prepared to start WWIII... I think that this is the war of Gog and MaGog which our prophecies talk about... I have heard a little about what is called the last Galut may indeed be an exile imposed by both Essau/Edom and Ishmael.
http://www.ou.org/torah/tt/5767/shemot67/navi.htm
This is a deficiency that constantly occurs in all the other galuyot, including our own. "I have traveled throughout galut Ishmael and galut Edom teaching that now that as this galut has been prolonged for so long, Israel has to withdraw from the frivolities of material- ism and attach themselves to the seal of G-d that is truth. We must refrain from lies, both to Jew and non-Jew alike, not to defraud them in any way or respect, to sanctify ourselves even in those things that are permitted to us, refrain from falsehoods and not have the language of deceit on our lips. Then the nations of the world will say to G-d: "Truly, such an honest and just people with truth on their lips deserve to be redeemed now". However, if we deal dishonestly and with deceit, then when Hashem considers our redemption, the nations of the world come and argue that G-d has chosen a people of liars and defrauders who surely in justice do not deserve redemption (Sefer Mitzvot Gadol, pos. mitz. 74, Hashavat aveida).
http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380582/jewish/Heal-Israel.htm
Let's now see what the Torah says about the source of our affliction. According to the Arizal, Rabbi Isaac Luria, Israel is passing through seven exiles among the nations. Until the final redemption, we feel the effects of all of these seven exiles. The last two exiles, which we are most strongly experiencing, are that of Edom and Ishmael.
The Arizal teaches that each exile corresponds to a limb of the shadow side of humanity (see "Israel and the Seventy Dimensions of the World: a Kabbalistic approach to an enduring world peace", p. 44). "Edom" corresponds to the shadow side of the right leg of humanity.
Edom inherited by Esau, Jacob's (Israel's) brother originally settled the land south of Judah's inheritance, adjacent to the south of Gaza. Esau has since dispersed and infiltrated the Western culture of Europe and America. Because of Israel's present unconscious state and her subsequent malfunctions, the right foot of humanity's shadow side is exerting its influence and handing Israel over to her enemies. Translated to the political arena, America and Europe are pressing for Israel's amputation.
Although we experience all exiles in varying degrees until the final redemption, we are presently dominated by the last two exiles, that of Edom and Ishmael. Ishmael, the last and most dominating exile, corresponds to the left leg of the shadow side of humanity.
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I thought that the current nation of Israel is the "final" one and that the Jews will no longer lose possession of their land.
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I thought that the current nation of Israel is the "final" one and that the Jews will no longer lose possession of their land.
Let us hope so... I don't want to lose it... But the current Medinat Israel {State of Israel} is not the system which Hashem commanded... You are well aware of the Bolshevik government which twists the truth and oppresses the Jew while raising the Arab.
PS: We Jews are still in Galut/Exile until Moshiach comes... May it be soon and in our days..
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Tzvi Fishmans blog contains something interesting.... Today is the Vilna Gaons yartzeit {anniversary of death}:
Bagels and Worms
We are not in the habit of rating rabbis. However, if one were to compose a list of the ten greatest rabbis of the last 500 years, certainly the Gaon of Vilna would appear on the list.
The Gaon of Vilna, Rabbi Eliahu ben Shlomo Zalman, also known as the “Gra,” was a master in all branches of Torah study. Today marks his yahrtzeit. He was also a genius in secular studies with a keen understanding of history and the developmental process of Redemption of the Jewish People, which he saw reaching a new crossroad in his time, with the imperative to abandon the exile and return to Eretz Yisrael.
According to the Gaon of Vilna, the Redemption of the Jewish People was contingent upon three basic matters:
One – the active endeavors of the Jewish People to return to the Land of Israel.
Two - the study of Torah, principally the study of Kaballah (“Even HaShlema, 11:3).
Three – “Shmirat HaBrit,” the guarding of the laws of sexual holiness (Commentary of the “Gra” on the “Tikunei Zohar,” Tikun 21, Folio 51A; also Tikun 42, end).
To the Gaon of Vilna, aliyah was a commandment of the Torah (Yoreh Deah, 267:161). He stressed the historical imperative and immediate necessity of the Jewish People to take active steps in immigrating to Israel. He taught that only by devoting ourselves to furthering the Geula (Redemption) by actual endeavor, exemplified in the return to and rebuilding of Eretz Yisrael, could the Jewish People escape the harsh decrees of the rulers of foreign lands. It was actually the Gaon of Vilna who started the Zionist movement by urging his students to make aliyah, warning that if we didn’t return to Israel on our own accord, then Hashem would bring about our return through the persecutions and severe decrees of the gentiles.
“Our teacher, the holy Gaon of Vilna, with words carved in flames, advised his students to go on aliyah, and to further the ingathering of the exiles. Furthermore, he encouraged his students to hasten the Revealed End of the exile, and to actualize the Redemption through the settlement of Eretz Yisrael. Almost every day, he spoke to us with trembling and emotion, saying that in Zion and Jerusalem there would be a refuge, and that we shouldn’t delay the opportunity to go. Who can articulate and describe the magnitude of our teacher’s worry when he spoke these words to us, with his Divine Inspiration, and with tears in his eyes?” (“Kol HaTor, end of Ch.5).
The Gaon of Vilna himself set off for Israel, as he records in his famous letter to his mother and wife, but was ultimately prevented by governmental red tape and the lack of transportation:
“I am writing the both of you to urge you not be feel sorrowful in any way, as you promised me, and also not to worry. For, behold, there are people who must travel for several years to secure their livelihood, leaving their wives behind, and wandering to and fro without little means, while I, thank G-d, am journeying to the Holy Land, which everyone longs to see, the delight of all the Jewish People, the delight of Hashem, and all of the angels. You know I have left behind my children, the love of my heart, and all of my cherished books, and made myself like a wandering stranger on earth, abandoning everything….”
In answer to the question why other rabbis did not call for the Jews to make aliyah, the Gaon of Vilna teaches:
“The sin of the Spies hovers over the Jewish Nation in every generation… How strong is the power of the force of darkness (Sitra Achra) that it succeeds in hiding from the eyes of our holy fathers the dangers of the impure shells (kelipot), and in the time of Mashiach, the force of darkness attacks the guardians of the Torah with blinders…. Many of the sinners in this great sin of ‘They despised the cherished Land’ including many great guardians of the Torah, will not know or understand that they are caught in the sin of the Spies, that they have been sucked into the sin of the Spies in many false ideas and empty claims, and they cover their ideas with the already proven fallacy that the mitzvah of the settlement of Israel no longer applies in our day, and opinion which has already been disproven by the giants of the world, the Rishonim and Achronim – the Early and Later Torah Authorities (“Kol HaTor, Ch.5).
The Gaon of Vilna was a man of truth. He didn’t have any illusions about life in galut amongst the gentiles. He writes:
“Since the Temple was destroyed, our spirit and our crown departed, and only we remained, a body without a soul. Exile to outside the Land of Israel is a grave. Worms surround us there, and we do not have the power to save ourselves. They, the idol worshippers, they devour our flesh. In every place, there were great yeshivot, until the body decayed, and the bones scattered, again and again. Yet always, some bones still existed, the Torah scholars of the nation, the pillars of the body – until even these bones rotted, and there only remained a rancid waste which disintegrated into dust – our life turned into dust” (Likutei HaGra, end of “Safra D’Tzniuta”).
Today, the situation is far worse than in the time of the Gaon of Vilna. The great rabbis of the exile are no more. The pillars of the galut no longer exist to sustain the nation in exile, which is devoured more and more by the worms of assimilation.
In contrast, Israel has become the Torah center of the world. Today, all of the great rabbis are in Israel. The pillars of the nation have returned to their place. The physical and spiritual rebuilding of the Nation is advancing every day. It is clear to every honest person that the Gaon of Vilna was right. May his merit light up eyes still blinded by the darkness of galut, and ignite a flame of longing for Israel in the hearts of our scattered remnants before the worms consume the Diaspora diehards completely.
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I thought that the current nation of Israel is the "final" one and that the Jews will no longer lose possession of their land.
Let us hope so... I don't want to lose it... But the current Medinat Israel {State of Israel} is not the system which Hashem commanded...
But a system of JEWISH existence in and sovereignty over the Land of Israel, IS the 'system' or formula Hashem commanded. So yes while the government of Israel is not good and not even in line with Torah principles, the fact that Jews are sovereign there is better than any galut(meaning, without Jewish control of Israel) alternative.
PS: We Jews are still in Galut/Exile until Moshiach comes... May it be soon and in our days..
Those Jews who made aliyah to Eretz Yisrael are not in galut. It is only those of us who choose to remain in galut that are in galut. Galut is a word with a definition in physical terms. It means when we are exiled from our land. Not exiled from "G-d" or clouds, or some other concept. Exiled from our land. The galut could have ended for all Jews or almost all Jews. But so many Jews refuse to embrace geulah, and prefer the cursed galut.
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But a few Jews are being prevented from leaving the galut by Bolshevik Nazi leaders. >:( They cannot be judged for living in galut.
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What about what Chaim always talks about, about those who are kind to the cruel will be cruel to the kind?
The Nazis murdered innocent people, and murder is different than killing in self defense. Wasn't the commandment that you shall not murder, not that you shall not kill? Israel has a hostile group inside its borders. Israel should defend itself.
This is true... The command is "Thou Shall Not Murder". This is different from killing. Murder is killing someone {or causing death to one} who does not deserve to die according to the law.
If it is true that anyone who kills Jews is Amalek then we should have risen and killed the Inquisitors and Crusaders too... They deserved to die... And why haven't we eliminated all Germans from the planet?
Nazis deserved to die, but not all Germans. I agree with you on the Inquisitors and Crusaders, but the ones who sent them (the Popes of the time and other evil people involved) probably deserved it even more. Both Nazis and the ancient RCC murdered a lot of Christians, too. Imagine being one of the righteous people who hid Jews, or a Christian who happened to disagree with some doctrine of the RCC.
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The number of Germans who were not Nazis was quite small, albeit larger than the number of Arabs that is non-Nazi.
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Bones, sadly you're right. So many of them followed Hitler like some rock star. I hope things will be better in the future for both of those peoples and they'll all be Zionists!. :)
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Bones, sadly you're right. So many of them followed Hitler like some rock star. I hope things will be better in the future for both of those peoples and they'll all be Zionists!. :)
Commoners followed sHitler. Most of the nobility despised this low-life monster. Almost all of German active resistance came from nobility and church.
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But a few Jews are being prevented from leaving the galut by Bolshevik Nazi leaders. >:( They cannot be judged for living in galut.
Oh, certainly I am not commenting on individual cases and I myself am not free from blame in this regard (ie the failure to make aliyah), which I acknowledge, but on the other hand I also have certain circumstances like many people do. Some people have very legitimate halachic reasons they cannot go (I may or may not, probably not, that's why I say I'm not free from blame - I'd have to ask a rabbi to know for sure though), or others like Chaim are banned by an evil decree. Either way, the majority of Jews could have gone long ago and chose not to. That was basically my point, just about the generality.
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Yousef Falay, an extremist rabbi living in Yitzhar settlement in the West Bank called on the Israeli government to kill all Palestinian males over the age of 13 who refuse to flee the country, hoping this would end the presence of the Palestinian race.
Rabbi Meir Kahane who started the Kach movement also called for "the transfer of Israel's Arab population to Arab (or other) lands". His words inspired people like Baruch Goldstein, an Israeli known for opening fire on civilians in a mosque in Hebron.
The concept of exterminating or transferring Palestinians was not only embraced by fanatics and their follower. Israeli politicians have also called for race-related transfers and ethnic cleansing publicly and without apologising.
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=57329
:dance:
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There is a big difference between moving the arabs and exterminating them. It is odd that this article lumps the two issues together. American history is full of occasions when populations were moved from one place to another and yet we don't have Indians blowing themselves up... And Jews have been moved from land to land and they don't blow themselves up...
Arabs need to be moved out of Israel... ASAP! They are revolting! On the Temple Mount! And we stand by and do nothing.
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Oh, certainly I am not commenting on individual cases and I myself am not free from blame in this regard (ie the failure to make aliyah), which I acknowledge, but on the other hand I also have certain circumstances like many people do. Some people have very legitimate halachic reasons they cannot go (I may or may not, probably not, that's why I say I'm not free from blame - I'd have to ask a rabbi to know for sure though), or others like Chaim are banned by an evil decree. Either way, the majority of Jews could have gone long ago and chose not to. That was basically my point, just about the generality.
I wouldn't say that every single Jew has to make aliyah, myself (and this isn't an issue for me to judge anyway, as a Gentile), but I do think that the majority of Jews would be a lot happier living in Israel, particularly right-wing Jews (considering most in America are left-wing). Certainly though, I don't think that any Gentile nation has the right to tell Jews where to live.
I do like the idea of there being a small Jewish presence everywhere as a means of showing Gentile peoples an example of light and truth, but I know assimilation is an enormous temptation. But Christians are faced with the temptation to assimilate and secularize on a daily basis as well.
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There is a big difference between moving the arabs and exterminating them. It is odd that this article lumps the two issues together. American history is full of occasions when populations were moved from one place to another and yet we don't have Indians blowing themselves up... And Jews have been moved from land to land and they don't blow themselves up...
Arabs need to be moved out of Israel... ASAP! They are revolting! On the Temple Mount! And we stand by and do nothing.
They deserve to be exterminated, but we cannot do that. Therefore they must be removed by any means available.
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They deserve to be exterminated
That's just going in the sick zone. That's what would coe out of Hitler's mouth if he was talking about Jews or Serbs.
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In my opinion all those arabs who do not support Israel, and yet are given shelter, homes to live in and protection from the IDF, should be expelled to other lands period! There is no room for traitors! None