JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: wonga66 on October 08, 2009, 06:58:27 AM
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What would be Rav Kahane's and his son's Halachic view about ascending the Temple Mount today? http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1119724.html
(http://halachafortoday.com/images/pp%20rav%20elyashiv.jpg)
Or do current exegencies and the Chillul/Kiddush Hashem of the Jewish right to ascend the Har Habayis today transcend even Halachah?!
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It's disturbing that this Rabbi would say this.
However some argue that we don't know the actual location where the holy of holies rest.
I don't know the right answer for this.
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I am not sure what Rav Kahane would say, though I believe he did say that it was up to him as a prime minister, he would build there the biggest synagogue in the world.
There is nothing new in Rav Elyashiv's statement.
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But that he should specifically say it to President Peres, whom some rabbis actually claim is "Armilus" - leader of the Erev Rav/the Anti-Moshiach - whose main tafkid according to the Vilna Gaon is to cunningly separate the Jews from the Temple Mount and thereby delay the Geulah, is significant!
(http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/media/ZIO_shimon_peres_77_01.JPG)
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Peres went to visit exactly for this purpose, to get a statement from Rav Elyashiv about the temple mount. But It seems Rav Elyashiv didn't mind that at all. He even added that visiting the temple mount is a beside being halachically forbidden, is a "provocation against the nations" and leads to bloodshed.
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re "Misnagdic.... Jews are forbidden" etc
How is this news? The sign that a bunch of top haredi rabbis put up at the Mount after the 67 war is still posted there saying it's forbidden. It's an old argument. There have always been some rabbis who argued it was not forbidden. While many haredi rabbis argued it is forbidden. Funny, in the article there is no reasoning given at all. Rav Eliyashiv is only repeating the precendent set by his predecessors. He even says in the article he's had this opinion for a long time.
What would be Rav Kahane's and his son's Halachic view about ascending the Temple Mount today?
What was it in their lifetime? There is no reason why it would have changed. This is an old issue. I heard a firsthand account of someone who said that he witnessed a time when Rav Kahane went up to Temple Mount, but I don't know if that was reliable account. Maybe someone in the forum knows or maybe Chaim knows.
Or do current exegencies and the Chillul/Kiddush Hashem of the Jewish right to ascend the Har Habayis today transcend even Halachah?!
What halacha exactly? Can you point out which one?
The majority Haredi position has always been that it is 'assur' to go onto Temple mount. That explains the sign that is posted up there. I have not seen a good explanation for the reasoning behind that, in light of the rather good explanations given by the opposing side that argues it is permitted, nor does the article you cited give any reasoning behind Rabbi Eliyashiv's opinion. They only quoted the soundbite that fits their agenda. But there have always been other Torah authorities, some National religious rabbis, and some haredi rabbis, who have differed in their opinion and have given good reasons that it is NOT forbidden. So why are you so quick to say it's "the halacha" ? Let's see if you can point out in what way it is the halacha or what halacha you are relating it to. You can't necessarily guess at what Rav Eliyashiv's reasoning is, but since you are so convinced, I assume you have some other information not available to us. So please share.
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Peres went to visit exactly for this purpose, to get a statement from Rav Elyashiv about the temple mount. But It seems Rav Elyashiv didn't mind that at all. He even added that visiting the temple mount is a beside being halachically forbidden, is a "provocation against the nations" and leads to bloodshed.
Where does it say that in the article? Did I miss something because I did not see any statement like that. I only saw that Peres said "inciters may fan the flames." They did not elaborate on what Rav Eliyashiv said except that it is assur in his opinion.
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Mifletzet/Nonny is obviously anti-Judaism period. He might be a "secular Zionist" or a "bagel-and-lox Jew", but he clearly hates Torah and looks for any old excuse to bash it.
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Peres went to visit exactly for this purpose, to get a statement from Rav Elyashiv about the temple mount. But It seems Rav Elyashiv didn't mind that at all. He even added that visiting the temple mount is a beside being halachically forbidden, is a "provocation against the nations" and leads to bloodshed.
Where does it say that in the article? Did I miss something because I did not see any statement like that. I only saw that Peres said "inciters may fan the flames." They did not elaborate on what Rav Eliyashiv said except that it is assur in his opinion.
It said so in the Hebrew media.
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The majority Haredi position has always been that it is 'assur' to go onto Temple mount. That explains the sign that is posted up there. I have not seen a good explanation for the reasoning behind that, in light of the rather good explanations given by the opposing side that argues it is permitted, nor does the article you cited give any reasoning behind Rabbi Eliyashiv's opinion.
http://www.torahsearch.com/page.cfm/964
The land of Israel is holier than all other lands: the omer sacrifice, the bread-sacrifice on Shavuos, and the first fruits can be brought only from there. Walled cities in the land are even holier: lepers must must be sent out of them. Jerusalem is even holier: corpses cannot stay there overnight; crops must not be grown there; furnaces and garbage heaps are not permitted there; houses cannot be rented there, and if sold they revert to the owner at the Jubilee; the second tithe and the sacrifices that are holy in a minor degree can be eaten there. The Temple mount is even holier: persons who are impure on account of a running issue cannot enter there. The outer zone is even holier: non-Jews and persons who are impure on account of contact with a corpse cannot enter there. The women's court is even holier: one who has immersed himself on account of impurity cannot enter there on the day of his immersion. The westernmost 11 cubits of the court are even holier: one who has not yet brought a sacrifice on account of impurity cannot enter there. The next 11 cubits of the court are even holier: non-priests cannot enter there except when they bring sacrifices. The part of the court between the altar and the hall is even holier: priests who have blemishes or whose hair is long or whose clothes are torn cannot enter there. The palace is even holier: priests cannot enter there without washing their hands and feet. The holy of holies is even holier: only the high priest can enter it, and only during the Yom Kippur service.
I don't know for sure but maybe these levels of sanctity and access limitation are still valid today, despite the fact that the Holy Temple is destroyed (may G-d restore it soon).
Another thing is that we must not let the Arabs to do what they wish at the Temple mount, they don't have a right to access the Temple Mount for sure! (I say that without taking into account the Halachic terms "provocation against the nations" and "exile still continues despite the existence of the Jewish state" which do exist but it is a separate issue what is included in their scope. I would like to know what is Rabbi Kahane's opinion about that.)
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It will be interesting to hear R.David Bar Chayim of Machon Shilo's psak as to Har Habayis ascent.
(http://www.machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/RavDavidBarHayim_100W.jpg)
If anyone knows the Halacha, with rigorous mekoros, it's him!
But I doubt he'll make his psak public, as he wishes to remain a free man. R.Bar Chayim is not afraid to make waves over kitniyos for Ashkenazim on Pesach. But he'll back off about Har Habayis and other issues, which could see him charged with "incitement" like R.Yitzhak Ginsburgh was, for merely quoting the Rambam!
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Seriously Wonga are pictures really needed in all of your posts? If so why?
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It would seem that the only thing between the Haredim and the obligation to build theTemple, is the existence of the Tenth Red Heifer http://www.templeinstitute.org/red_heifer/tenth_red_heifer.htm
(http://www.truthnet.org/endtimes/7/Red_Heifer.jpg)
But once those like R.Eliyashiv confirm Sadat's dictum that "the second skin of every Jew is fear", by invoking "antagonising the goyim" and "inciting bloodshed", everyone goes queasy and week at the knees.
Whereas R.Kahane taught that the only way to progress is by deliberate confrontation and davka provoking the goyim!
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Wonga answer me one thing. Are you black?
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But once those like R.Eliyashiv confirm Sadat's dictum that "the second skin of every Jew is fear", by invoking "antagonising the goyim" and "inciting bloodshed", everyone goes queasy and week at the knees.
Restraint and adherence to Halacha have nothing to do with fear (except fear of G-d). The question is what is Halacha in this case.
Whereas R.Kahane taught that the only way to progress is by deliberate confrontation and davka provoking the goyim!
Sources please?
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Sources please?
The Kahane Parasha Sheet for Pesach re the shechting of the Paschal Lamb, the deity of Egypt, deliberately to antagonize the Egyptians.
Plus the Kahane Sheet for Purim re the killing of the 75,000 enemies to deliberately cower the other goyim.
Professor Eidelberg recently stated that since the whole world consistently demonises Israel and accuses it of beligerence, let's fulfill their claim and actually act like beligerent demons!
"Since we're gonna be condemned anyway, let's do something really big and still be condemned!" (Yosef ben Meir, 2001).
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Sources please?
The Kahane Parasha Sheet for Pesach re the shechting of the Paschal Lamb, the G-d of Egypt, deliberately to antagonize the Egyptians. Plus the Kahane Sheet for Purim re the killing of the 75,000.
What is Kahane Sheet? Is it available online?
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I don't know for sure but maybe these levels of sanctity and access limitation are still valid today, despite the fact that the Holy Temple is destroyed (may G-d restore it soon).
Rabbi Melamed is quoted saying Jews can go up to the Mount. Rabbi Moshe Tendler has gone up and is on youtube video doing so with the Temple Institute. A lot has happened since 40 years ago, and the Temple Institute rabbis and others have been able to search out places that are definitely NOT at risk of being the site of the holy of holies, where they assert that people are permitted to go, and other places that might actually be the site of the holy of holies, they leave off limits according to halacha - So when Rabbi Melamed and others say that people can go up with proper preparation (mikveh beforehand), they mean only to these sites that we now know are NOT the site of the holy of holies. There are some rabbis and some Jews, who do not really care about the evidence or the search that was done, and they will say that any site is still suspect because "we can't possibly know" even though many leading rabbis and the Temple Institute assert that we do know certain information. So this type of person will say that it is forbidden entirely. And Rav Eliyashiv is only repeating that opinion from 40 years ago that has not changed by certain people no matter what new information comes about.
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It will be interesting to hear R.David Bar Chayim of Machon Shilo's psak as to Har Habayis ascent.
(http://www.machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/RavDavidBarHayim_100W.jpg)
If anyone knows the Halacha, with rigorous mekoros, it's him!
But I doubt he'll make his psak public, as he wishes to remain a free man. R.Bar Chayim is not afraid to make waves over kitniyos for Ashkenazim on Pesach. But he'll back off about Har Habayis and other issues, which could see him charged with "incitement" like R.Yitzhak Ginsburgh was, for merely quoting the Rambam!
Do you know Rav Bar Hayim personally? The statement starting with "But I doubt" seems like you might know him so I'm just wondering.
I personally like this photo of Rav Bar Hayim with the lulav that you included here. But when you post about the ugly leftists and show closeups on creatures like Livni, it does get annoying.
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I also don't think it is really so dangerous for Rav Bar Hayim to state his opinion in this case because you already have the "Temple Insitute" led by Rabbi Chaim Richman which clearly their position is that Jews can ascend Har Habayit. No one is putting Rabbi Richman in jail, even if the establishment very much dislikes him.
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Professor Eidelberg recently stated that since the whole world consistently demonises Israel and accuses it of beligerence, let's fulfill their claim and actually act like beligerent demons!
Professor Eidelberg is certainly a respected and decent man but he is no way an Halachic authority.
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Rabbi Melamed is quoted saying Jews can go up to the Mount. Rabbi Moshe Tendler has gone up and is on youtube video doing so with the Temple Institute. A lot has happened since 40 years ago, and the Temple Institute rabbis and others have been able to search out places that are definitely NOT at risk of being the site of the holy of holies, where they assert that people are permitted to go, and other places that might actually be the site of the holy of holies, they leave off limits according to halacha - So when Rabbi Melamed and others say that people can go up with proper preparation (mikveh beforehand), they mean only to these sites that we now know are NOT the site of the holy of holies. There are some rabbis and some Jews, who do not really care about the evidence or the search that was done, and they will say that any site is still suspect because "we can't possibly know" even though many leading rabbis and the Temple Institute assert that we do know certain information. So this type of person will say that it is forbidden entirely. And Rav Eliyashiv is only repeating that opinion from 40 years ago that has not changed by certain people no matter what new information comes about.
Rabbi Melamed is brilliant. I like to read his lessons in Be-Sheva weekly. Is there a map showing the halachically secure places of Temple Mount? As for Rav Elyashiv's doubts, I think they are not baseless. First of all, he may fear that some good but not well-prepared Jews will cross into the forbidden zone. Secondly, he may have alternative information about the possible location of the Holy of the Holies.
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"Since we're gonna be condemned anyway, let's do something really big and still be condemned!" (Yosef ben Meir, 2001).
This is too general statement for an Halachic statement. We can learn nothing specific from it.
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Rabbi Melamed is quoted saying Jews can go up to the Mount. Rabbi Moshe Tendler has gone up and is on youtube video doing so with the Temple Institute. A lot has happened since 40 years ago, and the Temple Institute rabbis and others have been able to search out places that are definitely NOT at risk of being the site of the holy of holies, where they assert that people are permitted to go, and other places that might actually be the site of the holy of holies, they leave off limits according to halacha - So when Rabbi Melamed and others say that people can go up with proper preparation (mikveh beforehand), they mean only to these sites that we now know are NOT the site of the holy of holies. There are some rabbis and some Jews, who do not really care about the evidence or the search that was done, and they will say that any site is still suspect because "we can't possibly know" even though many leading rabbis and the Temple Institute assert that we do know certain information. So this type of person will say that it is forbidden entirely. And Rav Eliyashiv is only repeating that opinion from 40 years ago that has not changed by certain people no matter what new information comes about.
Rabbi Melamed is brilliant. I like to read his lessons in Be-Sheva weekly. Is there a map showing the halachically secure places of Temple Mount? As for Rav Elyashiv's doubts, I think they are not baseless. First of all, he may fear that some good but not well-prepared Jews will cross into the forbidden zone. Secondly, he may have alternative information about the possible location of the Holy of the Holies.
Here is an A7 article I found that cites Rabbi Melamed, also speaking about the news story of Rav Eliyashiv's meeting with Shimon Peres. It doesn't really go into specifics about his position, so I'm not sure where to find that, but maybe the Temple Institute website has documented these types of things. Rabbi Melamed actually calls to ban gentiles from the Mount, which I have not heard before and was rather surprised by. I thought goyim came and offered up something for sukkot, or is it that we offered on their behalf? Here's the article:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133758
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Wonga answer me one thing. Are you black?
No, he/she/it is a self-hating Jew.
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I'm reading it again now, and hopefully I am not misinterpreting what Rabbi Melamed is quoted as saying. He is saying Jews can go up "if pure." Does that mean after a mikveh immersion? I know that some people will say we are all impure today even regardless of going in a mikveh.... I assumed he would not be saying along those lines, but reading it carefully I'm not sure exactly what Rabbi Melamed is saying here.
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Rabbi Melamed actually calls to ban gentiles from the Mount, which I have not heard before and was rather surprised by. I thought goyim came and offered up something for sukkot, or is it that we offered on their behalf? Here's the article:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133758
Acording to the source quote in one of my previous posts, the goyim could approach as far as the outer zone of the Temple Mount.
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Also, INN makes a similar point to what you saw in the Hebrew press, Zelhar.
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133758
Well, when such great Torah scholars agrue, I can only stay away. But I think the compromise solution might be to ban both Jews and Gentiles from the Temple Mount until Mashiach comes.
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Rabbi Melamed actually calls to ban gentiles from the Mount, which I have not heard before and was rather surprised by. I thought goyim came and offered up something for sukkot, or is it that we offered on their behalf? Here's the article:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133758
Acording to the source quote in one of my previous posts, the goyim could approach as far as the outer zone of the Temple Mount.
Oh, so he's talking about one of the more inner sites, I see.
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133758
Well, when such great Torah scholars agrue, I can only stay away. But I think the compromise solution might be to ban both Jews and Gentiles from the Temple Mount until Mashiach comes.
For sure they should ban Arabs/Muslims, but that probably WOULD cause a huge uprising... unlike Jews going up the Mount, which does not seem like it would - nor does it now, when some Jews already do go up there at times.
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Too bad Israel didn't level that damned mosque in Six-day war. I am sure it wouldn't have done too much noise then as it could do today.
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I don't know for sure but maybe these levels of sanctity and access limitation are still valid today, despite the fact that the Holy Temple is destroyed (may G-d restore it soon).
Rabbi Melamed is quoted saying Jews can go up to the Mount. Rabbi Moshe Tendler has gone up and is on youtube video doing so with the Temple Institute. A lot has happened since 40 years ago, and the Temple Institute rabbis and others have been able to search out places that are definitely NOT at risk of being the site of the holy of holies, where they assert that people are permitted to go, and other places that might actually be the site of the holy of holies, they leave off limits according to halacha - So when Rabbi Melamed and others say that people can go up with proper preparation (mikveh beforehand), they mean only to these sites that we now know are NOT the site of the holy of holies. There are some rabbis and some Jews, who do not really care about the evidence or the search that was done, and they will say that any site is still suspect because "we can't possibly know" even though many leading rabbis and the Temple Institute assert that we do know certain information. So this type of person will say that it is forbidden entirely. And Rav Eliyashiv is only repeating that opinion from 40 years ago that has not changed by certain people no matter what new information comes about.
What is written here makes sense...many rabbis have concluded that certain spots on the Temple Mount are not the holy of holies and therefore can be walked on by Mikvehed Jews. On the other hand, couldn't it be possible that other haredi rabbis say for Jews not to go on the mount in order to build a fence around the Torah...basically, just to be sure to be safe, don't go there at all?
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I don't know for sure but maybe these levels of sanctity and access limitation are still valid today, despite the fact that the Holy Temple is destroyed (may G-d restore it soon).
Rabbi Melamed is quoted saying Jews can go up to the Mount. Rabbi Moshe Tendler has gone up and is on youtube video doing so with the Temple Institute. A lot has happened since 40 years ago, and the Temple Institute rabbis and others have been able to search out places that are definitely NOT at risk of being the site of the holy of holies, where they assert that people are permitted to go, and other places that might actually be the site of the holy of holies, they leave off limits according to halacha - So when Rabbi Melamed and others say that people can go up with proper preparation (mikveh beforehand), they mean only to these sites that we now know are NOT the site of the holy of holies. There are some rabbis and some Jews, who do not really care about the evidence or the search that was done, and they will say that any site is still suspect because "we can't possibly know" even though many leading rabbis and the Temple Institute assert that we do know certain information. So this type of person will say that it is forbidden entirely. And Rav Eliyashiv is only repeating that opinion from 40 years ago that has not changed by certain people no matter what new information comes about.
What is written here makes sense...many rabbis have concluded that certain spots on the Temple Mount are not the holy of holies and therefore can be walked on by Mikvehed Jews. On the other hand, couldn't it be possible that other haredi rabbis say for Jews not to go on the mount in order to build a fence around the Torah...basically, just to be sure to be safe, don't go there at all?
In my opinion, it's a philosophical problem. They have an outlook where an attitude like "to be safe, cancel mitzvah x y or z" is ok even if it undermines one of the foundations of Judaism. I say this in regard to those who would not like to hear the evidence from study that was done to determine the holy places, etc, and would rather ignore it all and just say no one go up. But even these people should not allow muslims up there if that's the case. So their opinion is not consistent if they say only Jews are not allowed, as a fence, but Muslims sure go ahead and defile it and themselves....
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Even though he's somewhat more right-wing than R.Eliyashiv, the "Kotel Rabbi" Shmuel Rabinovitz is also against Jewish ascent to the Har Habayis http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1255547732836&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
(http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Barack+Obama+Visits+Israel+OVOGGvxfA90l.jpg)
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In response to the rabbi's warning, Peres replied, "The nation has ears and you must let your voice be heard. Your voice is heard, you are a Torah sage and you are respected by the public. We must ensure that your position is heard."
This is hypocritical. As if Peres would believe in the bible. He uses religion for his own purposes.
Palestinian leaders on Thursday called for a one-day general strike and warned of more street protests over Jerusalem, but Israel played down the risk of an uprising despite two weeks of tension in the disputed city.
Who cares? But on the other hand this strike is perhaps a good thing for the civilized citizens of Israel. Perhaps this strike includes the main Arab Muslim buisinessfields like murdering, stealing, robbing and raping.