JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Moshe92 on February 27, 2010, 06:59:48 PM
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http://hayamin.org/forum/index.php/topic,24899.0.html (http://hayamin.org/forum/index.php/topic,24899.0.html)
What do you think about that? Of course you can dress up as evil people for Purim, but wearing KKK robes seems kind of bizarre.
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Is this some sort of satire humor by Israeli youth?
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This is certainly unJewish.
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Oh they're just being funny with the irony. They're mocking the KKK It is funny. :::D
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Oh they're just being funny with the irony. They're mocking the KKK It is funny. :::D
I don't really find it funny.
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Oh they're just being funny with the irony. They're mocking the KKK It is funny. :::D
I don't really find it funny.
They look like they're having a laugh.
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Oh they're just being funny with the irony. They're mocking the KKK It is funny. :::D
I don't really find it funny.
I kind of do.
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I'm concerned they could be shot if they wear them. Many people would shoot a member of the KKK if they saw one wearing a robe.
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I'm concerned they could be shot if they wear them. Many people would shoot a member of the KKK if they saw one wearing a robe.
If only they shot muslims instead.
Larger amount and a bigger threat.
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Sickening. There is joking and then there is over the line. They are behaving similarly to the naturei karta with ss uniforms. I would be ready to fight one of them if I saw one in the streets. My friends and I would rip the uniform apart. And then we'll see how tough they are with their pashkevils and their cursing the zionists....
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Sickening. There is joking and then there is over the line. They are behaving similarly to the naturei karta with ss uniforms. I would be ready to fight one of them if I saw one in the streets. My friends and I would rip the uniform apart. And then we'll see how tough they are with their pashkevils and their cursing the zionists....
I saw the pictures last night and it sort of left me scratching my head. After thinking about it for a while the only thing I can figure is that the young Jews dressed up as klansmen really don't fully understand what the KKK stood for. They know its something not good however they really don't know how not good it actually is. Sadly the same can not be said for the naturei karta animals. They know full well what the SS was and to even put on a uniform like that is the very hight of evil.
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I agree with CJD's analysis verbatim.
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I see it differently, he's mocking and disrespecting the kkk and having a good time doing it, everyone is laughing at their costumes, mocking the kkk is a good thing, it marginalizes them, makes the kkk look like the inbred braindead buffoons they are. The more they are mocked the better, maybe some mixed up kids out there will not join if the kkk is perceived as stupid.
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These people want Jews dead, I can't see dressing up as Klansman, even as a joke.
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I don't see how this is any different than dressing up as Haman or w/e
Haman wanted us dead. He was like the original Hitler no? And we always dressed up as him on Purim, so what's the difference?
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Dressing up like Haman is tradition, this doesn't sit right with me. Whatever , no big deal either way.
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Look, here is a picture of a Hebron settler dressing up as the Israeli bolshevik supreme judge, Dorit Benish.
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1152988.html
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I think many people here don't really understand why we dress up on Purim. It really doesn't matter what you dress up as... Even dressing as hissler and kkk are ok, according to my understanding. Aside from upsetting those who don't know what Purim represents the fact that one dresses up as a enemy of the Jews is completely acceptable.
Purim represents the Jews special relationship with Hashem no matter what evil exists in the world. This is why some dress as Haman, and Romans and Greeks, and other enemies of the Jews. I see Nazis and KKK as enemies of the Jews and thus these costumes are acceptable.
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http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1573
From: Stephanie in Detroit
Dear Rabbi,
What is the significance of wearing costumes and the like on Purim?
Dear Stephanie,
A simple Jew was once traveling on a journey. He arrived at a certain town near nightfall, and desperately sought lodgings at the town inn. To his dismay, he learned that there was no room in the inn since a group of soldiers were staying there. He pleaded until the innkeeper let him stay in the roomof theGeneral, who was away for the night, on condition that he leave at the crack of dawn. Awakened by the innkeeper while it was still dark outside, the rushed, weary-eyed traveler mistakenly wore one of the Generals uniforms and left. Seeing his military-clad reflection in one of the store windows the simple Jew exclaimed, "That foolish inn keeper woke up the General instead of me!"
All too often we mistakenly define ourselves by how we appear and by what we do. We similarly judge others in the same way, as do others judge us. We are all deceived then by external appearances which often "mis-reflect" the real person within the external attire.
This is a theme in the Purim story. The Jews wrongly partook of the gluttonous, showy feast of King Achashverosh, which the King had intended to culminate in the improper "unveiling" of his Queen, Vashti (Esther 1:1-13). While the Jews' appearance at the banquet was wrong, it was more an external reflection of their being "under the influence" of their surroundings, than of a true, inner desire to do wrong. Ultimately, they revealed their real identity hiding behind the facade, fasting and praying fervently in repentance to G-d (Esther 4:1-3).
Purim, then, is a time for reflecting on the idea that people are not always as they appear on the outside. The custom of wearing costumes, especially those of mundane or even evil people or non-kosher animals on Purim makes us ask, "Who is the Jew behind that masquerade of impurity?" And when the person removes his mask, we shout with surprise, "Oh, its you I should have recognized you!" This teaches us that no matter how far a Jew appears to be from G-d and the Torah, its merely an intoxicated masquerade. Behind it all, within, is a holy, familiar Jew a brother or sister to love, appreciate and respect.
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http://hayamin.org/forum/index.php/topic,24899.0.html (http://hayamin.org/forum/index.php/topic,24899.0.html)
What do you think about that? Of course you can dress up as evil people for Purim, but wearing KKK robes seems kind of bizarre.
I mean if we are permitted to dress like Haman, then Klansman is peanuts compared to that.
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One last thought:
I do not think it would be in good taste to dress as a Nazi when in the presence of Holocaust survivors or their children. As a result I dont think it is the right time do do such a thing. The reason is that seeing this costume will hurt those who survived and we should be considerate of a fellow Jews feelings.
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I think many people here don't really understand why we dress up on Purim. It really doesn't matter what you dress up as... Even dressing as hissler and kkk are ok, according to my understanding. Aside from upsetting those who don't know what Purim represents the fact that one dresses up as a enemy of the Jews is completely acceptable.
Purim represents the Jews special relationship with Hashem no matter what evil exists in the world. This is why some dress as Haman, and Romans and Greeks, and other enemies of the Jews. I see Nazis and KKK as enemies of the Jews and thus these costumes are acceptable.
I don't see how you can equate these things.
Did Haman have a specific uniform everyone recognizes instantly?
Did haman succeed?
Did haman murder 6 million Jews?
It's completely different. When we poke fun at Purim, we are celebrating a great victory, a great miracle.
The Shoah was anything but that. It was a tragedy on immense scale, the memories are fresh, even survivors are still living, and it only invokes memories/feelings of sadness and remorse in any sane Jew that sees reminders of it. So I can't see in what bizarro world you or the other people in this thread equate these things.
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I think many people here don't really understand why we dress up on Purim. It really doesn't matter what you dress up as... Even dressing as hissler and kkk are ok, according to my understanding. Aside from upsetting those who don't know what Purim represents the fact that one dresses up as a enemy of the Jews is completely acceptable.
Purim represents the Jews special relationship with Hashem no matter what evil exists in the world. This is why some dress as Haman, and Romans and Greeks, and other enemies of the Jews. I see Nazis and KKK as enemies of the Jews and thus these costumes are acceptable.
I don't see how you can equate these things.
Did Haman have a specific uniform everyone recognizes instantly?
Did haman succeed?
Did haman murder 6 million Jews?
It's completely different. When we poke fun at Purim, we are celebrating a great victory, a great miracle.
The Shoah was anything but that. It was a tragedy on immense scale, the memories are fresh, even survivors are still living, and it only invokes memories/feelings of sadness and remorse in any sane Jew that sees reminders of it. So I can't see in what bizarro world you or the other people in this thread equate these things.
As I said above... The reason people dress as enemies of the Jewish people is because it is a part of Purim to see everything which happens, both the good and the bad, as coming from Hashem. I am sure you are aware that Hamans plans were far more hideous than Hitlers. Haman and Achashveros planned to exterminate all Jews in the entire world. Haman had the ability to carry out his plan.
I dont understand what having uniforms for Haman has to do with this. The issue is what is acceptable as a costume for Purim. As I also said above it is surely in bad taste to wear such a costume where one may offend the feelings of a survivor. But on face value I see it as the Jews survived WWII and the Nazis are dead, like the Persians are dead. I see the miracle of the creation of the state of Israel in the ashes of WWII as the result of the suffering of the Jews at the hands of the nazis....
PS: I am not suggesting that it is a wise thing to dress in such a costume. I am just saying that I am not upset about such a thing. Also I was initially referring to the topic of the thread, dressing as KKK...
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There's a festival similar to this around the same time of year called Karneval or Fasnacht which I think has its roots in Roman influence. Did the dressing up on Purim also come from Roman influence or is that just coincidence?
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There's a festival similar to this around the same time of year called Karneval or Fasnacht which I think has its roots in Roman influence. Did the dressing up on Purim also come from Roman influence or is that just coincidence?
No... The custom of Purim comes from the Holiday itself... Since Hashems miracle was a 'hidden' miracle we dress up in order to express the idea that we are not always what we seem on the outside. Despite external appearances we are Jews... Remember that Purim pre-dates the Roman empire. http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1492
Here is some info about the customs of Purim {including drinking and costumes}:
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/718099
Purim certainly takes it place as one of the more festive holidays of the year. Unlike the other Yom Tov days, the festivities of Purim include certain activities which would normally be frowned upon any other day of the year. This article will discuss some halachic perspectives on those activities.
Drinking on Purim
The Gemara, Megillah 7b, cites the opinion of Rava that one is required to drink wine on Purim until he does not know the difference between the blessings of Mordechai and the curses of Haman. The commentators ask a number of questions regarding Rava's statement. First, the Gemara, immediately after presenting Rava's statement, records an incident where Rabbah became intoxicated on Purim and slaughtered R. Zeira. Rava was a student of Rabbah. Ran, Megillah, 3b s.v. Gemara, quotes Rabbeinu Efraim who asks: how is it possible that Rava would require one to drink wine on Purim if there is even a slight possibility of placing someone's life in danger? Second, getting drunk is an act which is inconsistent with a Torah way of life. Orchot Chaim, Hilchot Megillah UPurim no. 38, asks: how can the rabbis obligate one to commit such an abhorrent act?
Based on these questions, both Rabbeinu Efraim and Orchot Chaim conclude that one should not actually become intoxicated on Purim. Orchot Chaim states that one should drink a little more than he is accustomed to drinking. Many Rishonim seem to subscribe to this opinion and offer various novel interpretations to Rava's statement. [See for example, Rabbeinu Yerucham, Netiv no. 10 and Avudraham, Hilchot Purim.]
R. Moshe Iserles (Rama), Darkei Moshe, Orach Chaim 695:1, cites the opinion of Mahari Brin who suggests that Rambam is also of the opinion that the rabbis did not intend for anyone to become intoxicated on Purim. Rambam, Hilchot Megillah 2:15, states that one should drink wine until he becomes drunk and falls asleep. According to Mahari Brin, Rambam's intention in mentioning falling asleep is to limit the drinking of wine only to the point that one would become sleepy from the consumption of the wine.
Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 695:1, records the statement of Rava. Rama, ad loc., adds that one should not become intoxicated. Rather one should drink more than he is accustomed to drinking and this will cause him to fall asleep. Rama notes that a precondition to any type of drinking is that one should have the noblest intentions. R. Avraham Danzig, Chayei Adam 155:7, rules that if drinking wine will cause one to be negligent in observance of any mitzvah (for example, netilat yadayim, birkat hamazon or tefillah) or to act with frivolity, it is preferable not to enter into that situation. Chayei Adam's statement is codified by Mishna Berurah, Bi'ur Halacha 695:1, s.v. Ad.
Wearing Costumes of Questionable Permissibility
There is a tradition of wearing costumes on Purim. These costumes can sometimes present halachic problems. Some costumes contain sha'atnez (a prohibited mixture of wool and linen). Others involve the prohibition against a male wearing female garments and vice versa.
R. Yehuda Mintz in his responsa, no. 15, addresses the issue of a male wearing female garments. He notes that according to Tosafot, Avodah Zarah 29a, s.v. HaMistaper, the prohibition against a male wearing female garments only applies if it is for the purpose of beautifying oneself. If the garments are worn for some ulterior motive, there is no prohibition. Therefore, R. Mintz suggests that if a male would like to dress like a female on Purim, it is permissible since his motivation is not to beautify himself, rather to be a part of the festivities.
R. Mintz's ruling is codified by Rama, Orach Chaim 696:8. However, R. Yoel Sirkes, Bach, Yoreh De'ah 182, disagrees. According to Bach, there are two scenarios where it is permissible for a male to wear female garments. First, the prohibition against a male wearing female garments only applies if his intention is to look (at least partially) like a woman. If his intention is anything other than to look like a woman, he may wear female garments. Second, if the article of clothing is one which is not worn for beauty, but rather for protection from the elements, that article may be worn by someone of the opposite gender. Bach claims that dressing like someone of the opposite gender on Purim is not included in either of these leniencies. First, the whole purpose of this act is to look like someone of the opposite gender. Although the original motivation is celebrate Purim, if the means of doing so are through dressing like someone of the opposite gender, it is prohibited. Second, the garments required to dress like someone of the opposite gender are not garments which are worn exclusively to protect one from the elements. Mishna Berurah 696:30, cites the opinion of Bach.
R. Iserles, Darkei Moshe, Orach Chaim 696:5, applies R. Mintz's logic to wearing a costume that contains sha'atnez. The Mishna, K'laim 9:2, states that it is permissible to wear garments containing sha'atnez if one's intention is to avoid taxation on the garment (from someone who is not authorized by the government to collect those taxes). The Gemara, Baba Kamma 113a, states that the reason why there is no violation of the prohibition of sha'atnez is that the prohibition of sha'atnez only applies if one wears the garment for the purpose of wearing it. If one has some ulterior motive in wearing the garment, there is no prohibition. R. Iserles suggests that if one wears a garment containing sha'atnez for the purpose of celebrating Purim and not for the purpose of wearing the garment per se, there is no prohibition. R. Iserles, in his comments on Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 696:8, rules that one may rely on this logic if the costume contains a form of sha'atnez which is only rabbinically prohibited.
Interpersonal Mitzvot
Mordechai, Sukkah no. 743, cites Rabbeinu Shimshon who rules that if there are participants in a wedding who damage the property of other participants as a result of the festivities, they are not required to pay. Sefer HaAgudah, Sukkah no. 41, adds that if a child injures another child while playing in the courtyard of the synagogue, he is not required to pay. Sefer HaAgudah implies that the exemption from liability is based on the idea that when one enters into such a situation, he knows that there may be monetary or physical consequences and he nevertheless chooses to participate. These statements are codified by Rama, Choshen Mishpat 378:9, with the provision that a beit din may institute certain guidelines in order to curb this type of behavior. Rama, Orach Chaim 695:2, adds that if property gets damaged as a result of celebrating Purim, the causer of damage is not liable for the damage.
Rama, Darkei Moshe, Orach Chaim 696:5, cites the opinion of Mahari Brin who notes the practice of some communities that it is acceptable to pilfer small parcels from one another. Mahari Brin notes that he has heard that this practice is cited as justification for wearing costumes of questionable permissibility. He notes that one should reject this justification because the basis for the practice to pilfer on Purim is that in these communities everyone is a willing participant in these "thefts." One cannot extrapolate from this that it is permissible to violate Halacha. While it was already noted that Rama does provide some leniencies regarding wearing costumes of questionable permissibility, Rama (Darkei Moshe) concludes this section with the term (based on a combination of two verses in Tehillim 2:11 and 100:2) "Ivdu et Hashem b'simcha v'gilu bir'ada," one should worship the Almighty with happiness but the rejoice should be tempered with the fear of the Almighty.
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I think many people here don't really understand why we dress up on Purim. It really doesn't matter what you dress up as... Even dressing as hissler and kkk are ok, according to my understanding. Aside from upsetting those who don't know what Purim represents the fact that one dresses up as a enemy of the Jews is completely acceptable.
Purim represents the Jews special relationship with Hashem no matter what evil exists in the world. This is why some dress as Haman, and Romans and Greeks, and other enemies of the Jews. I see Nazis and KKK as enemies of the Jews and thus these costumes are acceptable.
I don't see how you can equate these things.
Did Haman have a specific uniform everyone recognizes instantly?
Did haman succeed?
Did haman murder 6 million Jews?
It's completely different. When we poke fun at Purim, we are celebrating a great victory, a great miracle.
The Shoah was anything but that. It was a tragedy on immense scale, the memories are fresh, even survivors are still living, and it only invokes memories/feelings of sadness and remorse in any sane Jew that sees reminders of it. So I can't see in what bizarro world you or the other people in this thread equate these things.
As I said above... The reason people dress as enemies of the Jewish people is because it is a part of Purim to see everything which happens, both the good and the bad, as coming from Hashem. I am sure you are aware that Hamans plans were far more hideous than Hitlers. Haman and Achashveros planned to exterminate all Jews in the entire world. Haman had the ability to carry out his plan.
I dont understand what having uniforms for Haman has to do with this. The issue is what is acceptable as a costume for Purim. As I also said above it is surely in bad taste to wear such a costume where one may offend the feelings of a survivor. But on face value I see it as the Jews survived WWII and the Nazis are dead, like the Persians are dead. I see the miracle of the creation of the state of Israel in the ashes of WWII as the result of the suffering of the Jews at the hands of the nazis....
PS: I am not suggesting that it is a wise thing to dress in such a costume. I am just saying that I am not upset about such a thing. Also I was initially referring to the topic of the thread, dressing as KKK...
If you see someone wearing a nazi uniform you're not upset by such a thing?
Purim is about VICTORY and the massive kiddush Hashem when God (in hidden ways) foiled the plans of an antisemite who wanted to annihilate the Jews and who instead the antisemite himself hung on the gallows with his sons, while we freely massacred hordes of his followers/supporters and ideological brethren.
The shoah was not a victory, it was a massive tragedy. There is nothing to celebrate about it. A third of our people was wiped out.
You cite the miracle of the formation of the state of Israel. Surely the formation of Israel could have happened sooner and been even more dramatic if 6 million of our brothers were not murdered just beforehand and were allowed to freely immigrate to safety into our homeland. But alas the plans of Hitler were not foiled. As difficult as that is for us, that is the reality. It was not like Purim. Would that every story would turn out like Purim (including today's Muslim nazis, achmedinejad etc)... but not all of them do. So why would we pretend that they are all like purim?
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One last take on this issue:
I have heard Rabbi Bentzion Shaffier refer to this story. It relates the Holocaust to the story of Purim...
http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/3440
On 1 October 1946, after 216 court sessions, the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg delivered its verdicts sentencing the leaders of the Nazi party to death by hanging. The author of the following account, Kingsbury Smith of the International News Service, was chosen by lot to represent the American press at the execution of ten of those leaders.
NurembergGaol, Germany
16 October 1946
International News Service
…Julius Streicher made his melodramatic appearance at 2:12 a.m.
While his manacles were being removed and his bare hands bound, this ugly, dwarfish little man, wearing a threadbare suit and a well-worn bluish shirt buttoned to the neck but without a tie (he was notorious during his days of power for his flashy dress), glanced at the three wooden scaffolds rising menacingly in front of him. Then he glanced around the room, his eyes resting momentarily upon the small group of witnesses. By this time, his hands were tied securely behind his back. Two guards, one on each arm, directed him to Number One gallows on the left of the entrance. He walked steadily the six feet to the first wooden step but his face was twitching.
As the guards stopped him at the bottom of the steps for identification formality he uttered his piercing scream: 'Heil Hitler!'
The shriek sent a shiver down my back.
As its echo died away an American colonel standing by the steps said sharply, 'Ask the man his name.' In response to the interpreter's query Streicher shouted, 'You know my name well.'
The interpreter repeated his request and the condemned man yelled, 'Julius Streicher.'
As he reached the platform Streicher cried out, 'Now it goes to G-d.' He was pushed the last two steps to the mortal spot beneath the hangman's rope. The rope was being held back against a wooden rail by the hangman.
Streicher was swung suddenly to face the witnesses and glared at them. Suddenly he screamed, 'Purim Fest 1946.' [Purim is a Jewish holiday celebrated in the spring, commemorating the execution of Haman, ancient persecutor of the Jews described in The Tanach]…
Streicher had been a Nazi since early in the movement’s history. He was the editor and publisher of the anti-Semitic newspaper "Das Strummer." In May of 1924 Streicher wrote and published an article on Purim titled "Das Purimfest" (The Festival of Purim). In order to publish his vitriolic attack Streicher must have had a good deal of knowledge about Jewish thought and practice. However we can only speculate to what extent he was aware of the remarkable parallels between Haman and his own execution. However, they are indeed striking:
“And the king said to Esther the queen, ‘The Jews have slain and destroyed five hundred men in Shushan the capital, and the ten sons of Haman...Now whatever your petition, it shall be granted; whatever your request further, it shall be done.’
Then said Esther, ‘If it please the king, let it be granted to the Jews that are in Shushan to do tomorrow also as this day, and let Haman's ten sons be hanged upon the gallows.’ ” (Esther 9:12-14)
If Haman’s ten sons had already been killed, how could they hanged?
Our Sages comment on the word “tomorrow" in Esther's request: "There is a tomorrow that is now, and a tomorrow which is later." (Tanchuma, Bo 13 and Rashi, Shemot 13:14).
In the Megilla, the names of Haman’s ten sons are written very large and in two columns. This is in distinct contrast to the style of the rest of the Megilla. The left-hand column contains the word v'et (and) ten times. According to our Sages the word v'et is used to denote replication. The inference is that another ten people were hanged in addition to Haman's ten sons.
If we examine the list of Haman's sons three letters are written smaller: the taf of Parshandata, the shin of Parmashta and the zayin of Vizata.
Those three letters together form taf-shin-zayin, the Jewish year 5707, which corresponds to the secular year 1946, the year that those ten Nazi criminals were executed.
The Nuremberg trials were a military tribunal and thus the method of execution was usually by firing squad. The court, however, prescribed hanging. Esther’s request "Let Haman's ten sons be hanged" echoes down the ages,
Equally uncanny is that the date of the execution (October 16, 1946) fell on "Hoshana Rabba" (21 Tishrei), the day on which G-d seals the verdicts of Rosh Hashana for the coming year.
As the Megilla recounts, a decree that the king has sealed cannot be rescinded, and thus Achashverosh had to promulgate a second decree to allow the Jewish People to defend themselves. In other words, that first decree was never nullified.
Our Sages teach us that eventually the Jewish People will return to G-d either voluntarily, or if not, G-d will raise up another despot whose decrees will be “as severe as Haman” (Sanhedrin 97b).
When we look toward the place of our original encounter with Haman and see the rise of a fanatic whose rhetoric rivals our most vicious enemies, we should remember that history most often repeats itself for those who fail to learn its lessons.
http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter3-23b.html
Queen Esther then approaches the King with an additional request: "...allow the Jews who are in Shushan to do tomorrow as they did today, and let the ten sons of Haman be hanged on the gallows" (Esther 9:13). It's curious that she would request the hanging of Haman's already slain sons. Nevertheless, the King complies.
Now, the Hebrew word for "tomorrow" ("machar") often refers to the distant future. Further, the Midrash states that whenever the word "king" appears in the Megillah it alludes to the King of kings as well. Thus, the verse could be understand as a request by Esther to G-d to again hang the ten sons of Haman at some point in the distant future.
Now, when the Megillah lists the ten sons Haman during their hanging (9:7- 9) there are a number of unusually-sized letters. (We have a tradition to write certain letters in the Torah larger or smaller than the standard size.) According to the most accepted tradition, there is a large 'vuv' (numerical value = 6) and a small 'tuv' (400), 'shin' (300) and 'zayin' (7). The following suggestion has been made: The large vuv refers to the sixth millennium (of the Hebrew calendar); the small letters refer to year 707 of that millennium. The meaning, then, is that G-d agreed to hang Haman's ten sons again in the year 5707 = 1946-7.
On October 1, 1946, a few days before Yom Kippur, the first of the major Nuremberg trials was concluded. Ten of the chief Nazi masterminds and instigators were sentenced to hanging. (The actual number was twelve; one was sentenced in absentia and another committed suicide before his execution.) The last of them, Julius Streicher, on his way to the gallows and after his face was covered, cried out, for no apparent reason, "Purim Fest 1946!" And again, Esther's request was fulfilled.