JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: wonga66 on March 13, 2010, 06:00:56 PM
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There are dozens of English Haggadas available
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.a1db3362d2.jpg) (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?a1db3362d2.jpg)
but the only Haggada any Kahanist worth his salt should use this Pesach is of course the Kahane Haggada
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.8f6c303e88.jpg) (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?8f6c303e88.jpg)
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where can we get them?
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One of the more ridiculous offerings this year is the Falasha Haggada, written for them by guilt-ridden white Ashkenazim.
Falashas came over with no knowledge of Hebrew, Tefillin, Tallis, Kashrus, Family Purity, Talmud, Yom Tov, Shabbos etc etc etc.
And of course also no knowledge of Haggadas or Pesach. So it's a new experience for them!
Just like the film "Prince of Egypt" depicted the Children of Israel as Negroidals in order to assuage Hollywood Jewish guilt for being successful whilst Blacks are failures, plus the desire of Jews to always "kiss Black tochuss!" as Chayim puts it, so too does this Haggada depict the Bnei Yisrael as Blacks with thick Ubange lips!
http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=170816
(http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowImage.ashx?ID=139622)
"There never was such a thing as 'Black Jews': the whole thing is sheker v'kozov!" (Rabbi Avigdor Miller).
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http://www.hameir.org/haggada/FR/BZKBio.php
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Every thread for wonga turns into a place to obsess about blacks.
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Ethyopian Jews should use an Hallachically valid Hagadah if they are Orthodox, or follow their own rites if they are not. And a Kahane Hagadah seems also odd. What's the difference with the traditional versions? If it has references to present day Israel, I doubt it is Hallachically valid, since there are no sages who can validate a Nusach today.
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Shtikel Kahanist Rabbi David Bar Hayim of Machon Shilo http://machonshilo.org/en/index.php is not averse to making 'daring' Halachic changes according to the "Nusach Eretz Yisrael", for which he has sources in Chazal.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_TTJ7qljsr0w/Sgvq2atOOkI/AAAAAAAAAvo/g4Uol3dZQ1s/ravbarhayim.gif)
I wonder which Haggada he uses?
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Ethyopian Jews should use an Hallachically valid Hagadah if they are Orthodox, or follow their own rites if they are not. And a Kahane Hagadah seems also odd. What's the difference with the traditional versions? If it has references to present day Israel, I doubt it is Hallachically valid, since there are no sages who can validate a Nusach today.
What are you talking about? Everyone makes their own hagadah. It's about the perush, not the nusah.
In any case, the nusah was made in the time of the gaonim, so who says we can't edit things or add minor things, or alter in any way with word changes, etc? Look at the Rambam's hagada in hilchoth pesah and you will see it is not exactly the nusah in your favorite family hagada (although almost the same) that we use today. That is because there is no reason one should not be able to touch it up and people did do so. But in any case you have hundreds of hagadas of different people all giving their own rendition on different aspects of the same basic nusah.
Furthermore, my gemara rebbe argues for a girsa correction in a few places and does a few different things in his seder. The ikkar is not the nusah of the "baal hagada," (whoever amongst the gaonim who authored the 'official' text that we use), the ikkar is the halachic requirements for the pesah seder night as explained in the Talmud. In other words, a few basic requirements (which are included in the popular nusah but with tons of extra material added) plus the associated mitzvot including kiddush, the four cups of wine, etc etc. But the text of the hagada itself is not specified in the gemara... and in fact a mahloketh exists between rav and shmuel over what to say and we include both their opinions... plus a whole assortment of extra things.
In any case, although I don't know, I find it likely that the "Kahane hagadah" is merely a new peyrush on the same nusah like so many authorities have done throughout history - ie the malbim hagadah, the vilna gaon hagadah, the maharal hagadah, the rav soloveitchik hagadah, etc etc you can see a million of these in sefarim stores.
In any case, Raul, I understand that you are not Jewish (according to what you told us), so my intention is not to teach you Torah, but when you make authoritative statements in the name of Judaism here, expect to be corrected. Not that what I did here falls into the category of "teaching you Torah" anyway, but just so we're clear.
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In any case, Raul, you should know that on this website, we do not consider Rabbi Kahane ZT"L or his son Rabbi Binyamin Kahane ZT"L to have been departing from the way of the halacha. In fact, no one does. There were some haredi rabbanim (and modern orthodox/dati leumi rabbanim) who had differing approaches and differed on points of hashkafa/philosophy, but no one would suggest Rabbi Kahane defied the halacha! Chas veshalom.
My own rabbi, who is not even so zionistic, told me that Rabbi Kahane was a "big talmid chacham" a compliment that does not just get thrown around about just anyone by the haredi world, certainly not by my rabbi.
Of course he refers to "talmid chacham" in the modern-day sense, which really means a "chacham" in talmudic terms.
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You mentions 100s of types of hagadahs. The only ones I know endorse Maxwell House Coffee :D
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with all due respect, the Haggada was compiled hundreds of years ago. Any Haggada that sticks to tradition will do.
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You mentions 100s of types of hagadahs. The only ones I know endorse Maxwell House Coffee :D
Haha... ;D
The classic roast... I mean hagada....
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The Kahane Haggada: the only one with a depiction of the coming destruction of The Statue of Liberty, the Houses of Parliament, The Kremlin, The Eifel Tower, The Mosque of Omar and The Leaning Tower of Pisa!
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6190/27849464.th.jpg) (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/27849464.jpg/)
Unlike other milquetoast Orthodox Jews, when true Kahanists recite in the Haggada שפוך חמתך אל הגוים they really mean it!
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Thank you for the link, I will be getting one, and a number of other Kahanist books I saw on that web site.
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The Kahane Haggada: the only one with a depiction of the coming destruction of The Statue of Liberty, the Houses of Parliament, The Kremlin, The Eifel Tower, The Mosque of Omar and The Leaning Tower of Pisa!
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6190/27849464.th.jpg) (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/27849464.jpg/)
Unlike other milquetoast Orthodox Jews, when true Kahanists recite in the Haggada שפוך חמתך אל הגוים they really mean it!
This in an uncalled provocation. I agree that the al-Aqsa mosque should be removed because its built on Jewish land. But what do you have against European buildings. The tower of Pisa!???? >:(
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The Kahane Haggada: the only one with a depiction of the coming destruction of The Statue of Liberty, the Houses of Parliament, The Kremlin, The Eifel Tower, The Mosque of Omar and The Leaning Tower of Pisa!
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6190/27849464.th.jpg) (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/27849464.jpg/)
Unlike other milquetoast Orthodox Jews, when true Kahanists recite in the Haggada שפוך חמתך אל הגוים they really mean it!
This in an uncalled provocation. I agree that the al-Aqsa mosque should be removed because its built on Jewish land. But what do you have against European buildings. The tower of Pisa!???? >:(
Yeah, actually, that, I don't get either.
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I really don't understand this position. On one hand you want to involve the Jewish People in defending Western Civilization, something with which I don't agree very much because I hold that Jews have enough a big task to defend Israel.
On the other side you promote an Hagadah calling for the destruction of the West!!!
What's the point here?
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If the destruction of this landmarks was mentioned, it would make no sense since the pyramids of Egypt still exist. What makes sense if it is a "kahanist" hagadah is focusing on the fact that the Jews of galut are like the slaves in Egypt
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I really don't understand this position. On one hand you want to involve the Jewish People in defending Western Civilization, something with which I don't agree very much because I hold that Jews have enough a big task to defend Israel.
On the other side you promote an Hagadah calling for the destruction of the West!!!
What's the point here?
The point is that wonga66 is a leftist provocateur. Plain and simple.
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I really don't understand this position. On one hand you want to involve the Jewish People in defending Western Civilization, something with which I don't agree very much because I hold that Jews have enough a big task to defend Israel.
On the other side you promote an Hagadah calling for the destruction of the West!!!
What's the point here?
The point is that wonga66 is a leftist provocateur. Plain and simple.
So he faked the page and that's photoshop? Or is it that he's highlighting an unfortunate entry in that Haggada?
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That is an exact scan of p179 of "The Haggada of the Jewish Idea", 2003 translated by Daniel Pinner, edited by Lenny Goldberg.
Although we were all born in Western countries & have a soft spot for them, BZK and his father knew that Western Civilisation, just like Eastern and Islamic Civilisation, are as far removed from Torah Civilisation as can be imagined, and all will have to be terminated in their current format in the Messianic Age.
If the nations are lucky, it will be just be the buildings that symbolise their civilisations that get terminated.
Any idea who actually did the drawing? Maybe one of BZK's children?
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This in an uncalled provocation. I agree that the al-Aqsa mosque should be removed because its built on Jewish land.
From p196 of the Haggada a depiction of the Mosque being bulldozed and Cohanim commencing their service in the future Third Temple even as the bulldozer is clearing away the rubble and the Crescent of Islam!
(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/851/12694120.th.jpg) (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/12694120.jpg/)
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If the destruction of this landmarks was mentioned, it would make no sense since the pyramids of Egypt still exist. What makes sense if it is a "kahanist" hagadah is focusing on the fact that the Jews of galut are like the slaves in Egypt
It could be that the artist who did the illustrations took some artistic liberty and drew any famous building he could think of even if the hagada itself is not saying about the statue of liberty etc
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That is an exact scan of p179 of "The Haggada of the Jewish Idea", 2003 translated by Daniel Pinner, edited by Lenny Goldberg.
Although we were all born in Western countries & have a soft spot for them, BZK and his father knew that Western Civilisation, just like Eastern and Islamic Civilisation, are as far removed from Torah Civilisation as can be imagined, and all will have to be terminated in their current format in the Messianic Age.
If the nations are lucky, it will be just be the buildings that symbolise their civilisations that get terminated.
Any idea who actually did the drawing? Maybe one of BZK's children?
In fact I am not fond of Western Civilization. I was even disliked here and on Kahane.org by many people because of my anti-Western stances. But I am fond of my ancestors' nation and my nation and don't like these calls to destruction. And I don't understand the problem with our buildings and historical monuments. All those ones you mention are not even religious, so they cannot be considered idolatry. And the religious buildings in Europe which are, in fact, religious belong to Christianity. So why are Christians wellcomed here if Western Christianity is evil? And if you think that modern Western society is corrupt and leftist, please remember that all those monuments were built long ago in history.
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I really don't understand this position. On one hand you want to involve the Jewish People in defending Western Civilization, something with which I don't agree very much because I hold that Jews have enough a big task to defend Israel.
On the other side you promote an Hagadah calling for the destruction of the West!!!
What's the point here?
The point is that wonga66 is a leftist provocateur. Plain and simple.
So he faked the page and that's photoshop? Or is it that he's highlighting an unfortunate entry in that Haggada?
I don't know if that Haggada is authentic and if it really has such picture.
Actually, authentic Haggada text has such a phrase:
"Pour out Your wrath upon the nations that do not acknowledge You, and upon the kingdoms that do not call upon Your Name. For they have devoured Jacob and laid waste his habitation."
That means we pray that G-d will punish the pagan nations that want to destroy the Jewish nation, like Rome or Nazi Germany.
Even though US, Russia and European nations are often hostile to Jews, they are not as evil as those mentioned above. Therefore it is unreasonable to think that Jews pray to G-d that He will destroy them. Actually, the choice is theirs, each of them can choose between good and evil. I pray to G-d none of them will choose to become another Nazis.
But it must be remembered that any injustice, even a tiny one, will not go unpunished. As well as any virtue, even a small one, will be rewarded. This applies to Jews and Gentiles alike.
But wonga is trying to convey the message that Jews hate the West and the East and want to destroy them all. This is not true, and I don't need to elaborate how dangerous it is to Jewish people and Jewish state. One thing is to firmly defend our national rights, but humiliate other nations is something quite different (building in Jerusalem or in any other part of the Land of Israel is not a humiliation, it is our right given to us by G-d Himself, even though Obama might think otherwise:)
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I do not understand why wonga66 is tolerated at this forum.
Each of his posts is aimed either at inciting strife within the Jewish people or at provoking conflicts between Jews and other nations.
He uses evrey dirty tactic possible: deceit, half-truth, taking words out of context, etc. etc. He does not hesitate to insult Torah sages.
He must be banned and not allowed to return under a new nickname.
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Well, if it is true, I do not like that image of the European landmarks being destroyed at all, it is ill conceived, I'd suggest they edit the book and replace the image with Mosques/Minarets going down, the Kabba and the Al Aqsa mosque crumbling.
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As for my two cents:
From what I have learned concerning the messianic era there will be no need for these other structures. I think that the message of these pictures is that the west will no longer worship the almighty dollar, or any other currency of the nations. The symbols of western economic strength include those mentioned, and places like Wall Street and London. As the Roman empire crumbled the Jewish people spread out and flourished, even despite our wicked 'brothers' Ishmael and Essaus attempt to keep us down.
When Moshiach is amongst us we will flee from the wealth and the base pleasures which the western cultures cherish. Once again the knowledge of Hashem will fill the earth like water fills the oceans. When we read the Passover Haggadah we are told that we are to believe that 'we' ourselves have lived through the exodus of Egypt. In order to visualize this we must be able to see the symbols of power being destroyed, as the ancient children of Israel witnessed the utter decimation of the Egyptian system, the world power of its time, it crumbled before their eyes.
Remember that our ancestors were asked to take a sheep, and keep it inside for a week, and to slaughter it. The sheep was a G-d of Egypt and thus we were commanded to kill their G-d.... This is remembered on the Shabbat before Pesach...
http://www.jewfaq.org/special.htm
Shabbat Ha-Gadol
Shabbat Ha-Gadol is the Shabbat before Pesach (Passover). Traditionally, this was one of the few times of the year that a rabbi gave a lengthy sermon (in modern times, we get one every week). The sermon was usually about preparations for Pesach, and this special Shabbat commemorates a preparation for the original Pesach in Egypt. Shabbat Ha-Gadol (The Great Sabbath) commemorates the 10th day of Nissan, when the Hebrew slaves took the lambs that they were going to offer for Pesach and tied them up outside their homes, to keep until they offered it on the 14th (Ex. 12:3-6). According to tradition, this was a dangerous thing to do, because Egyptians worshipped sheep, but miraculously, instead of slaughtering the Hebrews, the Egyptians instead fought with each other over whether the Hebrews should be sent away already.
The special haftarah reading for this Shabbat is Malachi 3:4-24. This messianic prophecy regarding the end of days and the return of the prophet Elijah is read at this time because it is believed that Elijah will return at Pesach. This is why we include a cup for him in our seder rituals.
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Don't forget that history hasn't played itself out yet. To call the West 'our friends' is premature. The western white Japhetic nations (Magog is Japhetic) will yet attempt to invade Israel - they will be destroyed as per Ezekiel 38. 'Rosh' (verse 2) is Russia - so the Kremlin in the picture definitely gets it! "I will assemble ALL the nations against Jerusalem to battle" (Zechariah 14) - "2/3rds in the earth will be cut off and die" (ibid 13).
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Don't forget that history hasn't played itself out yet. To call the West 'our friends' is premature. The western white Japhetic nations (Magog is Japhetic) will yet attempt to invade Israel - they will be destroyed as per Ezekiel 38. 'Rosh' (verse 2) is Russia - so the Kremlin in the picture definitely gets it! "I will assemble ALL the nations against Jerusalem to battle" (Zechariah 14) - "2/3rds in the earth will be cut off and die" (ibid 13).
What Rabbi Tovia Singer from Israel National News has said is that the 1/3 which survives is not exclusively Jews. It is possible that the wicked Jews will be killed with the wicked nations, and the righteous of the nations will survive along with the 1/3 which is not destroyed. Each soul will be judged on the merits of its decisions made in Olam Hazeh.
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Wonga is right that such a picture exists in The Haggadah of The Jewish Idea. The English edition was published by David HaIvri, the former leader of Revava, which doesn't exist anymore. He published it while he ran HaMeir L'David, the former name of his Kahanist publishing house, prior to forming Revava. HaIvri is known to have views against Western Civilization and has been critical of JTF's goal to save Western Civilization.
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I am studing Rabbi Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane ZT"L HY"D haggada. A great read and great studing. I try and study at least 3 hours a week if not more. The Commentaries are amazing I bought it from my friend Lenny Goldberg a former JDLer
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I am studing Rabbi Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane ZT"L HY"D haggada. A great read and great studing. I try and study at least 3 hours a week if not more. The Commentaries are amazing I bought it from my friend Lenny Goldberg a former JDLer
Awesome. David, please check your private messages.
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Wonga is right that such a picture exists in The Haggadah of The Jewish Idea. The English edition was published by David HaIvri, the former leader of Revava, which doesn't exist anymore. He published it while he ran HaMeir L'David, the former name of his Kahanist publishing house, prior to forming Revava. HaIvri is known to have views against Western Civilization and has been critical of JTF's goal to save Western Civilization.
Is the text itself written by Rabbi Binyamin, and Haivri added in the illustrations/footnotes etc? Or is the text itself HaIvri's rendering of things that Rabbi Binyamin Kahane had said? I would only be interested in the hagadah if Rabbi Binyamin Kahane (or his father) actually wrote the commentary.
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It says Daniel Pinner translated it. It is in BZK's style.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/DavidHaivri.jpg/220px-DavidHaivri.jpg)
Although give credit where credit is due, I don't think Haivri (aka David Axelrod) is anywhere on the level of writing or annotating such a commentary.