JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: White Israelite on March 31, 2010, 11:35:05 PM
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I've talked to a few Syrian Jews and they don't seem to accept converts at all even if it was 3 or 4 generations ago, if you ask me, I'd say they really view everything from a racial perspective. My fathers family was hardcore in protecting the Cohen lineage believing he should only marry another Cohen which I think is extreme as it is but the Syrian Jews seem to take it a step further. What are your experiences with them?
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2007/11/syrian-jews.html
“Never accept a convert or a child born of a convert,” Kassin told me by phone, summarizing the message. “Push them away with strong hands from our community. Why? Because we don’t want gentile characteristics.” ...
“It’s really a matter of statistics,” [Rabbi Elie Abadie ] explained to me. “Except for the Orthodox, the American Jewish community is shrinking, disappearing. In two generations, most of their grandchildren won’t even be Jews. But our community is growing. We have large families, five or six children. And only a tiny fraction of our kids leave. The Edict is what makes that true.”
Abadie and Kassin agree that the vast majority of SY youth abide by the strictures of the Edict. “Ninety-nine percent accept it,” Kassin said. “When someone doesn’t, it’s painful, but it’s better to lose a kid here and there and save the community. Families get sick over it, sure, but that’s how it is.”
Kassin knows this from personal experience. His sister Anna ran off with a gentile. Naturally it was a great scandal in the community, but the chief rabbi didn’t bend the rules for his daughter. “We cut her off,” Jakie Kassin told me. “We didn’t see her for 25 years. But we never stopped hoping she’d come back. Finally, after all these years, she made contact. We told her she was welcome to come back, but not with her husband or kids. She’s not here yet, but we do talk on the telephone.”
In addition to the strictures imposed by the Edict in instances of proposed intermarriage, any outsider who wants to marry into a Syrian family — even a fellow Jew — is subject to thorough genealogical investigation. That means producing proof, going back at least three generations and attested to by an Orthodox rabbi, of the candidates’ kosher bona fides. This disqualifies the vast majority of American Jews, who have no such proof. “We won’t take them — not even if we go back three or four generations — if someone in their line was married by a Reform or Conservative rabbi, because they don’t perform marriages according to Orthodox law,” Kassin said. Even Orthodox candidates are screened, to make sure there are no gentiles or converts lurking in the family tree. ...
The force of the Edict is lasting: the children of people who have been excluded under the terms of the Edict are themselves declared ineligible to marry into the community.
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My personal opinion is that it goes quite extreme for the Syrian Jewish community to reject their grandchildren if the person had someone in their family that converted 3-4 generations ago. I don't think i'd want to marry someone that picky though.
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If they want to be like that, then so be it... I think that being strict sometimes is the best thing in order to keep the family Jewish. My family is a good example of the ravages of assimilation due to the leniencies of the last two generations.
I just learned last night that the four sons are representative of the Jews in exile.
The 1st generation is compared to the wise son, the chocham... He is righteous and follows the Torah, and he moves to America, and he teaches his son about the Jewish ways.
The 2nd generation is compared to the wicked son, the rasha... He was brought up in an observant household, he learned the halachas and memorized the gemaras, and yet he rejected it all when he was old enough. He rejected the heritage of his father but yet he still attends the seder. He doesn't teach his sons anything Jewish but that they were from Jewish lineage.
The 3rd generation is compared to the simple son, the tam... His knowledge of Judaism is very weak and his question at the seder is simply 'What is this?'. The 3rd generation knows it is Jewish yet doesn't really provide a Jewish education for his son.
The 4th generation is compared to the son who doesn't know to ask... This son is the one who loses his Jewish identity in the exile.
I am the 4th generation of my family in this country.
http://www.aish.com/h/pes/f/hh/48957471.html
http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/5757/pesach.html
PS: I was snatched from the 49th level of impurity in 2003... I did a complete teshuva and now am more observant than anyone in my family.
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Yeah but I know what that's like to be rejected, my dads family was the same way towards my mother who converted and didn't want their son to marry my mother because she was German and he was a Kohen, and there was a lot of controversy. My mother underwent orthodox conversion in the 70's and it still wasn't good enough. They would call her nokhri or other names letting her know she didn't belong. Maybe it was just the shul she attended. My grandpa was very harsh towards my mother. My grandma treated my mother well though.
Granted one cannot tell one whom they can marry, but if my parents had never met and married, I wouldn't be here today. My mother did what she could to do an authentic conversion on her own and married after her conversion and my grandfather considered us as defiled.
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Yeah but I know what that's like to be rejected, my dads family was the same way towards my mother who converted and didn't want their son to marry my mother because she was German and he was a Kohen, and there was a lot of controversy. My mother underwent orthodox conversion in the 70's and it still wasn't good enough. They would call her nokhri or other names letting her know she didn't belong. Maybe it was just the shul she attended. My grandpa was very harsh towards my mother. My grandma treated my mother well though.
Granted one cannot tell one whom they can marry, but if my parents had never met and married, I wouldn't be here today. My mother did what she could to do an authentic conversion on her own and married after her conversion and my grandfather considered us as defiled.
I don't quite know what it feels like in that situation. I have checked back for at least 5 generations and it seems I am halachically Jewish. Until this generation there was no intermarriage in my family.
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Quite simply they have distorted the Torah. I do not dislike Syrian Jews, and I do not have anything against them in general, but on this particular issue they have certainly distorted the Torah which says countless times Do Not Oppress The Convert. There is a mitzvah to Love a convert. With their "rabbinical decree" of the 20th century - which clearly has no halachic authority - they are abrogating the Torah (G-d forbid), and committing a terrible evil.
Given the scandal that took place in Deal, NJ and this particular rabbi's involvement, how can anyone any longer see him as a moral authority? This just goes to show that when rabbis or Jews uproot the Torah (this is not limited to just the reform, but "orthodox" too) or uproot certain principles of the Torah, they are only planting the seeds of evil in the community and the iniquities will grow from there. In my opinion, the corruption evident in that scandal is only a symptom and logical conclusion of the skewed way of thinking that motivates this group communally. I hope they will fix these evil ways.
I also still do not see the logic in comparing the issue of conversion to the issue of intermarriage and assimilation. Two completely unrelated things. A community can set up a high standard for conversions and create a culture where converts will be accepted as long as they accept the yoke of the commandments. It cannot just ban conversion and shun converts and think that this somehow solves the problem of assimilation.
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Yeah but I know what that's like to be rejected, my dads family was the same way towards my mother who converted and didn't want their son to marry my mother because she was German and he was a Kohen, and there was a lot of controversy. My mother underwent orthodox conversion in the 70's and it still wasn't good enough. They would call her nokhri or other names letting her know she didn't belong. Maybe it was just the shul she attended. My grandpa was very harsh towards my mother. My grandma treated my mother well though.
Granted one cannot tell one whom they can marry, but if my parents had never met and married, I wouldn't be here today. My mother did what she could to do an authentic conversion on her own and married after her conversion and my grandfather considered us as defiled.
Kohanim are forbidden to marry gerim. Maybe it was not about the fact that she was a ger, but that she was marrying a kohen. So if she did an Orthodox conversion, that's fine and she is Jewish, but she can still not marry a kohen.
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SYRIAN JEWS ONLY WANT MARRAIGES WITH OTHER SYRIAN JEWS .NOT EVEN WITH OTHER JEWS FROM MID EAST MIZRACHIM JEWS
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For each jewish community to each their own. Is it fair if a non syrian jew, even a sefardic persian jew, liked a syrian jew and was rejected because he wasn't from that community? After all a Jew is a Jew. Maybe even better to mix up the gene pool in order to not have as many genetic diseases.
Listen, Mashadi Persians also only marry each other.
I can understand personal prefence if a persian wanted to marry persian; russian marry russian etc in order to keep common tradition and values. If that's what the syrian community wants, who am I to say "no, its unjust"?
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However a true convert is a still a Jew
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Does it not say "when a convert converts" implying that a convert to Judism is already Jewish? this is nonsense to hate a true meaning convert. Alas all jews must remember that we are all descended from some one who converted at one point. Just because it is more difficult to become Jewish, doesnt mean that you cant be Jewish. In fact anyone who wants to go through such a lengthly conversion, and be as hated as we are in the world, is often in my opinion, incredibly brave perhaps more than alot of us who can relax in knowing that we are true Jews as we have a birthright. Just my thought....
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I also live by the idea that we are to not oppress a convert. I know many converts {too many} who are righteous Jews and I have nothing bad to say about it. But conversion should not be a preferred thing. Judaism doesn't seek to convert the world to Judaism, just spread the knowledge of G-d to the world...
I don't know about this particular group... But I would think that being very strict about marrying out of the sect would result in less intermarriage.
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Syrian Jews do not HATE converts. They simply forbid marrying them and, according to some, they consider them to be Gentiles. The real question is if they may be contradicting Torah with their policy or not. I have read that Ravs have ruled that they are entitled to refuse performing conversions (since not all communities do conversion processes), to reject converts in their kehilot (because it's permitted to have a Kehilah for a specific group of Jews), to consider some conversions as invalid if they suspect it was not done properly, but it's forbidden to say that converion itself is invalid since it would be to deny the verses of the Torah which speak about guiur.
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I think it's wrong to cut off a child for marrying a Jew outside the little galut he/she comes from.
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Syrian Jews do not HATE converts. They simply forbid marrying them and, according to some, they consider them to be Gentiles. The real question is if they may be contradicting Torah with their policy or not. I have read that Ravs have ruled that they are entitled to refuse performing conversions (since not all communities do conversion processes), to reject converts in their kehilot (because it's permitted to have a Kehilah for a specific group of Jews), to consider some conversions as invalid if they suspect it was not done properly, but it's forbidden to say that converion itself is invalid since it would be to deny the verses of the Torah which speak about guiur.
You are attempting to engage in apologetics, but you are not being honest with your comment. Not sure why you feel the need to justify the practices of every community (and every practice at that), but I advise looking at things with more discernment than that.
The quote from the article is: “Never accept a convert or a child born of a convert,” Kassin told me by phone, summarizing the message. “Push them away with strong hands from our community. Why? Because we don’t want gentile characteristics.” ...
That does not fit with what you wrote.
Just because a "rav" says it doesn't make it necessarily true. The Torah does not say, "love the convert except for those you want to exclude from your G-d-given kehilla." It sounds like gobbledy-gook that was made up in order to justify the practice among the Syrians and to justify the takanah of their otherwise righteous rabbi who issued it... Of course today we can't even compare the present day rabbis with the original, given what they were involved with, so why continue trying to justify this bunk?
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I always thought all you had to do to prove to Syrian Jew that you were marriage worthy was to show that for 3 or 4 generations your family has been Jewish. I can do this. But the above statement sort of implied that if at some point along the line that if your family was married by a non-orthodox rabbi that you would not "count". Am I misreading this? That seems insane. Do you suddenly become a gentile when you are married by a non-orthodox Rabbi?
Also I thought they would only need proof that your mother, mother's Mother, and mother's mother's mother were Jewish. If they need proof that the mother's of ALL EIGHT of your GREAT-Grandparents were Jews then that is also insane.
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well i am not a syrian jew but i honestly don't understand my people need to be so strict about marriages.if my daughter or son will want to marry someone (even a non jew) i would not iterfere unless he is a ngero or muslim or a commie or a liberal or homosexual or with genetic defects and then it is another problem.
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Normal athiest, I really have to disagree with this type of thinking.
First, by the laws of judaism, Jews can and only marry Jews black or white convert or non-convert.
Ideologies eg liberalism, conservatism etc can be changed in people's lives. Religion is tied to the soul, unlike many political ideologies.
As far as syrian jews only wanting to marry off to the same subculture, I can relate to that, but for completely different reasons as cited on this thread. I feel what makes a marriage more comfortable is if the married couple have more similar things in common, if it matters to them. In the persian, syrian, and iraqi jewish communities, the attitude goes with an extended family, not just husband and wife. Couples will choose eachother based on the others' families unlike most ashkenazi Jews.
But all in all, Jew should marry Jew doesn't matter the color of ones skin or the shape of ones eyes
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For each jewish community to each their own. Is it fair if a non syrian jew, even a sefardic persian jew, liked a syrian jew and was rejected because he wasn't from that community? After all a Jew is a Jew. Maybe even better to mix up the gene pool in order to not have as many genetic diseases.
Listen, Mashadi Persians also only marry each other.
I can understand personal prefence if a persian wanted to marry persian; russian marry russian etc in order to keep common tradition and values. If that's what the syrian community wants, who am I to say "no, its unjust"?
Incorrect , with Mashadi Jews some do, but there is no comparison to the way si Jews act , furthermore , when it comes to Persian Jews, so many of them dont even marry Jews, never mind marrying a Persian . To add to that, there is no denying Askanazi jews , usually marry Ashkenazim , please dont try and turn it around and insult Persian Jews ;if anything they need to become more observant. the frum askanazi community is pushing us away (thank you for that) >:(
i went to an Askanazi yeshiv, went though racism because im dark by the rabbis AND THE STUDENTS .. believe it or not some (keyword some lol)blacks treated me better then the Askanazi Jews. there is not a time i go to a Askanzi shul were im asked why dont you go to a Sephardi.. dont get me wrong I love all Jews (as hard as it is)
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For each jewish community to each their own. Is it fair if a non syrian jew, even a sefardic persian jew, liked a syrian jew and was rejected because he wasn't from that community? After all a Jew is a Jew. Maybe even better to mix up the gene pool in order to not have as many genetic diseases.
Listen, Mashadi Persians also only marry each other.
I can understand personal prefence if a persian wanted to marry persian; russian marry russian etc in order to keep common tradition and values. If that's what the syrian community wants, who am I to say "no, its unjust"?
Incorrect , with Mashadi Jews some do, but there is no comparison to the way si Jews act , furthermore , when it comes to Persian Jews, so many of them dont even marry Jews, never mind marrying a Persian . To add to that, there is no denying Askanazi jews , usually marry Ashkenazim , please dont try and turn it around and insult Persian Jews ;if anything they need to become more observant. the frum askanazi community is pushing us away (thank you for that) >:(
i went to an Askanazi yeshiva ans i went though racism because im dark by the rabbis AND THE STUDENTS .. believe it or not some (keyword some lol)blacks treated me better then the Askanazi Jews. there is not a time i go to a Askanzi shul were im asked why dont you go to a Sephardi.. dont get me wrong I love all Jews (as hard as it is)
WHO cares 18 Chai!
You love Rabbi Kahane and you are good people. I get this junk from "FRUMS" too. f- em
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For each jewish community to each their own. Is it fair if a non syrian jew, even a sefardic persian jew, liked a syrian jew and was rejected because he wasn't from that community? After all a Jew is a Jew. Maybe even better to mix up the gene pool in order to not have as many genetic diseases.
Listen, Mashadi Persians also only marry each other.
I can understand personal prefence if a persian wanted to marry persian; russian marry russian etc in order to keep common tradition and values. If that's what the syrian community wants, who am I to say "no, its unjust"?
Incorrect , with Mashadi Jews some do, but there is no comparison to the way si Jews act , furthermore , when it comes to Persian Jews, so many of them dont even marry Jews, never mind marrying a Persian . To add to that, there is no denying Askanazi jews , usually marry Ashkenazim , please dont try and turn it around and insult Persian Jews ;if anything they need to become more observant. the frum askanazi community is pushing us away (thank you for that) >:(
i went to an Askanazi yeshiva ans i went though racism because im dark by the rabbis AND THE STUDENTS .. believe it or not some (keyword some lol)blacks treated me better then the Askanazi Jews. there is not a time i go to a Askanzi shul were im asked why dont you go to a Sephardi.. dont get me wrong I love all Jews (as hard as it is)
WHO cares 18 Chai!
You love Rabbi Kahane and you are good people. I get this junk from "FRUMS" too. f- em
I do love Rabbi Kahane .. Yea, I do ignore it ..Thanks :) there is good in all types of Jews
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I don't understand why you are angry at me...I'm Persian too.. My personal preference someone from a similar background as myself which I happened to marry. I think for my children, it would be the same thing because the marriage might be easier.
When I was speaking of Askhanazi Jews, I was giving a broad term. I might be wrong about certain groups, but American Jews might care less if another person were necessarily American or not. Perhaps the same might be true with Russians or Western European Jews. However, my observations with specific group of Sefardic Jews, they prefer to stick with their own...or at least parents prefer their children to stick to their own...who knows? maybe that will change.
The Mashadi Jews are a specific group of Persian Jews who the majority will advocate only marrying their own, unlike other Persians. Unfortunately when a tight family community does that, cousins marry cousins and then you start getting a lot of genetic problems..
For each jewish community to each their own. Is it fair if a non syrian jew, even a sefardic persian jew, liked a syrian jew and was rejected because he wasn't from that community? After all a Jew is a Jew. Maybe even better to mix up the gene pool in order to not have as many genetic diseases.
Listen, Mashadi Persians also only marry each other.
I can understand personal prefence if a persian wanted to marry persian; russian marry russian etc in order to keep common tradition and values. If that's what the syrian community wants, who am I to say "no, its unjust"?
Incorrect , with Mashadi Jews some do, but there is no comparison to the way si Jews act , furthermore , when it comes to Persian Jews, so many of them dont even marry Jews, never mind marrying a Persian . To add to that, there is no denying Askanazi jews , usually marry Ashkenazim , please dont try and turn it around and insult Persian Jews ;if anything they need to become more observant. the frum askanazi community is pushing us away (thank you for that) >:(
i went to an Askanazi yeshiv, went though racism because im dark by the rabbis AND THE STUDENTS .. believe it or not some (keyword some lol)blacks treated me better then the Askanazi Jews. there is not a time i go to a Askanzi shul were im asked why dont you go to a Sephardi.. dont get me wrong I love all Jews (as hard as it is)
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I have no idea why any of us would bend over backwards to defend what is in essence, extreme bigotry. I say let them fend for themselves. They didn't have this attitude when they were rescued in various operations by outside Jewish individuals or agencies over the past 60 years. Where was this arrogance and racism then? Oh, wait, it wasn't convenient then, so they didn't express it. Hatred is hatred. If they enjoy their separatist identity, they should have stayed in Syria where they could have enjoyed their kinship with some of the most truly despicable people known to the modern world.
And this so called 'rabbi' would prefer that his married sister ABANDON her children and husband of 25 years? A husband who presumably loved her more than her family ever would or could, so she could come back to a family like that??? What kind of Jewish disaster is this cat? My Godfather is Syrian and Jewish and I have a better understanding now of why his family life has always been largely separated from his 'friendship' life.
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Sometimes it just depends on the family, I think. Some Syrian Jews may prefer only to marry other Syrian Jews, no big deal. Everybody is different. Unless you fall head over heals in love with Syrian Jewess and her family won't let you in the circle, because you're not a Syrian Jew.
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Re: "i honestly don't understand my people need to be so strict about marriages."
There are many cultures around the world where an individual's primary and extended family relationships totally define their present and future prospects for social stability, business life, personal life, and chances for survival.
The rules which we take for granted as being the standard playbook here in America are in fact a very recent aberration away from how the rest of the world behaves.
Had Syrian Jews ever felt that they were free to marry with and to whomever they chose, there would today be no Syrian Jews, for "marrying outside the fold" would have meant dissolving all the societal bonds which allowed them to survive and flourish.
Our contemporary secularist "break with the past" and its outmoded traditions, is but one reason that America is often referred to as "The New World" as opposed to "the Old Country" of our Great-Grandparents.
The old adage is still true: "Travel is the best education."
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Oh, Im not angry at you im angry at the Persians that marry Mexicans ,..
I will tell you one thing In terms of observance, the SI community if falling apart so is the Persians.. 25% of my relatives already intermarried and that is only gen 2 ,all this stringency with the SI community will backfire and that will be g-ds anger measure for measure if the messiah does not come. I know of a SI that fell in love with a Persian and was not accepted, the girl wound up just marring a gentile.. The SI community is ashamed of this and they hide it ... give it another 25-50 years you will see what will happen to them, they already have their own problems... and they worship only money not the g-d of Israel ..that's one main reason why they want to keep things in the community and its an excuse that they dont want other cultures to affect theirs I pity them...They are worried about their culture being assimilated? go to Brooklyn and look at how they live they are as gentile culture like as can be! Talk bout Irony.
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p.s.--
Take a good look at Leonardo DeCaprio and Bar Rafaeli.
Proof positive that sexual attraction, fame, and fortune, can't overcome the inherent instability of being "unequally yoked".
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With all due difference between the Persian Jews and the evil Samartians, Dan Ben Noah is right.
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well i am not a syrian jew but i honestly don't understand my people need to be so strict about marriages.if my daughter or son will want to marry someone (even a non jew) i would not iterfere unless he is a ngero or muslim or a commie or a liberal or homosexual or with genetic defects and then it is another problem.
Atheist, you need more Torah and less racism. A Jew is allowed to marry a Back Jew or a Black who converted, but he/she is forbidden to marry a Gentile.
Likewise, we Gentiles, are forbidden to marry Jews.
With all due difference between the Persian Jews and the evil Samartians, Dan Ben Noah is right.
Why do you call Samaritans evil? Because they have a slightly different version of the text of the Torah? What about many users here who follow a different religion or no religion at all?
To your knowledge, Samaritans cling to their faith better than some Israeli Jews. Mount Gerizim is Holy to them and they really care about it and defend their right to do Passover there. Jerusalem is Holy to Jews and many Jews don't care about it and even want to give it away.
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well i am not a syrian jew but i honestly don't understand my people need to be so strict about marriages.if my daughter or son will want to marry someone (even a non jew) i would not iterfere unless he is a ngero or muslim or a commie or a liberal or homosexual or with genetic defects and then it is another problem.
Atheist, you need more Torah and less racism. A Jew is allowed to marry a Back Jew or a Black who converted, but he/she is forbidden to marry a Gentile.
Likewise, we Gentiles, are forbidden to marry Jews.
With all due difference between the Persian Jews and the evil Samartians, Dan Ben Noah is right.
Why do you call Samaritans evil? Because they have a slightly different version of the text of the Torah? What about many users here who follow a different religion or no religion at all?
To your knowledge, Samaritans cling to their faith better than some Israeli Jews. Mount Gerizim is Holy to them and they really care about it and defend their right to do Passover there. Jerusalem is Holy to Jews and many Jews don't care about it and even want to give it away.
Raulmarrio2000,
To a Orthodox Torah Jew the Samaritans are not Jewish because they reject outright the entire Oral tradition. According to the Jewish sages a heretic is a person who doesn't believe that the Oral Torah is from Sinai. There are other reasons Samaritans are not considered Jewish too... The Samaritans were the enemies of the Jewish people during the Roman times...
http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/history.htm
"Ezra HaSofer," Ezra the Scribe
Ezra the Scribe, together with Zerubavel, "went up" (in the sense of "making Aliyah," literally meaning "going up," and referring to the return to the Land of Israel), with a minority of the Jewish People, not necessarily the most religious, even as in our days, but the bravest, to re-establish the Jewish Commonwealth, and to rebuild the Temple, in Israel. They had to deal with difficulties placed in their way by the Shomronim, the "Not-so-Good" Samaritans, who attacked them militarily and politically, again, even as in our days.
Ezra had to make some radical changes in the composure of the "Jewish" People because again (the last time I'll say it) even as in our days, there was intermarriage and assimilation among the immigrants, and those conditions had to be undone, in order to obtain the help of G-d.
But Ezra was equal to the task! The Talmud says in fact that had the Torah not been transmitted to the Jewish People by Moshe, Ezra could have done the job. In any case, the Second Temple came into being, greatly diminished from its previous form, but serving nevertheless again as the spiritual center of the People.
The name 'good samaritan' is a misnomer... To the Jewish people they were the 'not-so-good' samaritans...
http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/ageoftorah.html
The Samaritans
About two hundred and fifty years later (in the year 555 B.C.E.) the king of Assyria conquered the kingdom of Israel, and took most of the people into exile. We do not know where he sent them. Those are the Ten Lost Tribes, and we will not see them again until the Messiah comes.
Assyria was, at that time, a world power, having conquered many countries. Shalmanesser, King of Assyria, had the practice of relocating entire nations, in order to better subjugate and control them. When he took the Ten Tribes of Israel away from Samaria, he brought the people called the Cuthites to replace them. We don't know where the Cuthites came from. Since the Cuthites settled in the area known as Samaria (Shomron), they later became known as the Samaritans (Shomronim).
When the Cuthites were first relocated into Samaria, they were being killed by plagues of lions, and they did not know what to do about it. So they sent a message to the king of Assyria, asking for help. The king of Assyria did not know what to do about this either, so he asked advice from some kohanim (priests) of Israel, those people he had exiled from the land of Samaria and relocated elsewhere. They told him that it is dangerous to live in Hashem's Holy Land and not obey the Torah.
The king of Assyria therefore decided to send some Kohanim of Israel to teach the Cuthites how to keep the Torah. The Cuthites, because of the plagues, decided to accept some of the Torah. They began to worship Hashem, but it was soon discovered that they had not stopped worshiping their idols. They were doing some odd combination of both. Nevertheless, the lions went away. (You can read about all this in II Kings, Chapter 17.)
Since the Samaritans still worshiped their idols, their conversion was not proper, and it was unacceptable. The Jews could therefore not accept the Samaritans as Jews. For this, the Samaritans developed a deep and terrible hatred for the Jews. They did whatever they could to destroy the Jews. They would send messages to the enemy overlord, claiming that the Jews were planning to revolt. They tried many times to get the Jews killed.
They also built their own temple on Mount Gerizim, and there they worshiped an odd combination of religions, which includes their distorted version of the Chumash, and idolatry. Their temple was dedicated to both G-d and to their own pagan idols.
The Samaritans also decided to accept the Sacred Book of the country (i.e., the Torah). However, they did not adopt all the Books of the Torah. They adopted some of what the kohanim of the Kingdom of Israel taught them about. The kohanim of the Ten Tribes had only the Five Books of Moses, and the Book of Joshua. So that's what they taught to the Samaritans. The Samaritans accepted the Chumash, with some distortions of their own, but they refused to accept the Book of Joshua, because it excluded their ownership of the land they occupied. So they created their own book, which they call Joshua. Today, the small number of Samaritans on Mount Gerizim still have a distorted version of the Chumash, and their own book that they call Joshua.
So, during the sixth and fifth century B.C.E. there was the kingdom of Judah, and the Samaritans, both living in the land of Israel, not all that far away from each other.
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Muman, so if you follow the opinion that they are Gentiles, what's the problem if they don't keep Oral Law?
And the term "Good Samaritan" is in fact an insult to real Samaritans. It implies that even among them there maybe a good person but they are a bad nation.. Similar to the term "Good Thief". Both terms are derived from Gospel stories, though the Gospel itself does use these terms.
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The Samaritans were the enemies of the Jewish people during the Roman times...
During Roman times? More than 2000 years ago!!! Each nation is free to decide how long enemity for past events lasts, but certainly I don't follow that view. It sounds like bigotry to me to hate a people for a conflict of two milenia ago.
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The Samaritans were the enemies of the Jewish people during the Roman times...
During Roman times? More than 2000 years ago!!! Each nation is free to decide how long enemity for past events lasts, but certainly I don't follow that view. It sounds like bigotry to me to hate a people for a conflict of two milenia ago.
We mourn the destruction of the Temple 2000 years ago every year on Tish B'Av. There is no reason to forgive Essau and his descendants Edom... Those who helped the Romans will always be enemies of the Jewish people.
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The Samaritans were the enemies of the Jewish people during the Roman times...
During Roman times? More than 2000 years ago!!! Each nation is free to decide how long enemity for past events lasts, but certainly I don't follow that view. It sounds like bigotry to me to hate a people for a conflict of two milenia ago.
We mourn the destruction of the Temple 2000 years ago every year on Tish B'Av. There is no reason to forgive Essau and his descendants Edom... Those who helped the Romans will always be enemies of the Jewish people.
Then, why is JTF befriending the Western nations who are mostly descendants of Romans and Greeks? What's the problem with Samaritans? Perhaps the only problem is that you only remember them for what you have read about their ancestors and never met them actually. Anyway it's historically disputed that the Samaritans who were enemies of Jews had anything to do with the Samaritan Community. Samaritan can mean either inhabitant of Samaria or a member of the Shamerim or Shomronim community. How can you know if the Samaritans mentioned in Jewish sources were members of the Community or only people who lived in the region of Samaria?
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Normal athiest, I really have to disagree with this type of thinking.
First, by the laws of judaism, Jews can and only marry Jews black or white convert or non-convert.
Ideologies eg liberalism, conservatism etc can be changed in people's lives. Religion is tied to the soul, unlike many political ideologies.
As far as syrian jews only wanting to marry off to the same subculture, I can relate to that, but for completely different reasons as cited on this thread. I feel what makes a marriage more comfortable is if the married couple have more similar things in common, if it matters to them. In the persian, syrian, and iraqi jewish communities, the attitude goes with an extended family, not just husband and wife. Couples will choose eachother based on the others' families unlike most ashkenazi Jews.
But all in all, Jew should marry Jew doesn't matter the color of ones skin or the shape of ones eyes
to dan,i am realy disagree with your post.in the torah there were b\never a ban on jews marrying non jews,this ban was created during the babylon exile in a try to explain the destruction of the first temple (we have just learned this in history lesson).i think actually the opposite is true.we need to marry non jews white in order to expand our gene poll and eliminate diseases that are carried by recesive genes and are shown to be created in jewush fetuses only beacuse of the intermarriages.the reason i want allowed my child to marry a liberal even if he changed in the recent past (up to ten years ago) is that he didn't prove himself to be a true conservative /righ winger.the reason i won't allow my child to marry a black person is quite obxious and i won't recite them unless i would be asked for.
and finslly to the guy that said that i need more torah and less racism.i don't know about you but i am learning the torah (from the torah not from the gemara) 4 hours a week.and racism according to the dictionary is the belief that there are some races that are superior to others.now i don't know about you but i am proud to be racist and yes, i truly think that white and asian are superior to the blacks that didn't built any great civilizations in their history and are destroying any place they had infilirated to.
have a nice day,normal atheist.
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Normal atheist
I appreciate the fact that you are studying Torah, but Torah alone doesn't give all the answers nor does Gemara alone give all the explanations. However you cannot just draw conclusions if you are not a rabbi nor have consulted a rabbi who is an expert on these things.
If jews need to mix up the gene pool then dark jew should marry light jew and long time jew should marry new convert jew.
The greatest destruction of the Jewish kingdoms was when our kings married non jewish women who brought idols to the land israel. But then again, normal athiest, you didn't get to that part yet.
My advice to you is that while learning Torah, you study with a learned Orthodox, of which I'm not one, and ask him LOTS of questions which conflict with your personal beliefs.
I even suggest you ask Chaim these questions on ask JTF or even openly disagree with him. You and the rest of us will find it to be worthwhile to expand our minds.
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Normal atheist
I appreciate the fact that you are studying Torah, but Torah alone doesn't give all the answers nor does Gemara alone give all the explanations. However you cannot just draw conclusions if you are not a rabbi nor have consulted a rabbi who is an expert on these things.
If jews need to mix up the gene pool then dark jew should marry light jew and long time jew should marry new convert jew.
The greatest destruction of the Jewish kingdoms was when our kings married non jewish women who brought idols to the land israel. But then again, normal athiest, you didn't get to that part yet.
My advice to you is that while learning Torah, you study with a learned Orthodox, of which I'm not one, and ask him LOTS of questions which conflict with your personal beliefs.
I even suggest you ask Chaim these questions on ask JTF or even openly disagree with him. You and the rest of us will find it to be worthwhile to expand our minds.
in asking chaim do you mean the section called ask jtf archives? if no please corect me so i will be able to ask him.
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http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,45401.0.html
in next week's ask JTF May 9th. You can ask a question each week.
Normal atheist
I appreciate the fact that you are studying Torah, but Torah alone doesn't give all the answers nor does Gemara alone give all the explanations. However you cannot just draw conclusions if you are not a rabbi nor have consulted a rabbi who is an expert on these things.
If jews need to mix up the gene pool then dark jew should marry light jew and long time jew should marry new convert jew.
The greatest destruction of the Jewish kingdoms was when our kings married non jewish women who brought idols to the land israel. But then again, normal athiest, you didn't get to that part yet.
My advice to you is that while learning Torah, you study with a learned Orthodox, of which I'm not one, and ask him LOTS of questions which conflict with your personal beliefs.
I even suggest you ask Chaim these questions on ask JTF or even openly disagree with him. You and the rest of us will find it to be worthwhile to expand our minds.
in asking chaim do you mean the section called ask jtf archives? if no please corect me so i will be able to ask him.
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I also disagree with you with the concept that there are inferior races and superior races.
There are some black people, such as Paster Manning and Alan Keyes who are wonderful righteous people and only proves that it isn't the color of one's skin that makes them dumb or smart.
And look at Hitler, he was white and look at all the evil he ever did.
Therefore, you can't draw conclusions that white is better than black or vice versa.
Furthermore, it is one's own choice if a white Jew married a black Jew. There is nothing wrong with a white Jew being attracted to black Jews or vice versa...and for that matter, there is nothing wrong with a white Jew being unattracted to a black Jew either. It's a matter of preference and not superior or inferior genetics.
Normal athiest, I really have to disagree with this type of thinking.
First, by the laws of judaism, Jews can and only marry Jews black or white convert or non-convert.
Ideologies eg liberalism, conservatism etc can be changed in people's lives. Religion is tied to the soul, unlike many political ideologies.
As far as syrian jews only wanting to marry off to the same subculture, I can relate to that, but for completely different reasons as cited on this thread. I feel what makes a marriage more comfortable is if the married couple have more similar things in common, if it matters to them. In the persian, syrian, and iraqi jewish communities, the attitude goes with an extended family, not just husband and wife. Couples will choose eachother based on the others' families unlike most ashkenazi Jews.
But all in all, Jew should marry Jew doesn't matter the color of ones skin or the shape of ones eyes
to dan,i am realy disagree with your post.in the torah there were b\never a ban on jews marrying non jews,this ban was created during the babylon exile in a try to explain the destruction of the first temple (we have just learned this in history lesson).i think actually the opposite is true.we need to marry non jews white in order to expand our gene poll and eliminate diseases that are carried by recesive genes and are shown to be created in jewush fetuses only beacuse of the intermarriages.the reason i want allowed my child to marry a liberal even if he changed in the recent past (up to ten years ago) is that he didn't prove himself to be a true conservative /righ winger.the reason i won't allow my child to marry a black person is quite obxious and i won't recite them unless i would be asked for.
and finslly to the guy that said that i need more torah and less racism.i don't know about you but i am learning the torah (from the torah not from the gemara) 4 hours a week.and racism according to the dictionary is the belief that there are some races that are superior to others.now i don't know about you but i am proud to be racist and yes, i truly think that white and asian are superior to the blacks that didn't built any great civilizations in their history and are destroying any place they had infilirated to.
have a nice day,normal atheist.
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I also disagree with you with the concept that there are inferior races and superior races.
There are some black people, such as Paster Manning and Alan Keyes who are wonderful righteous people and only proves that it isn't the color of one's skin that makes them dumb or smart.
And look at Hitler, he was white and look at all the evil he ever did.
Therefore, you can't draw conclusions that white is better than black or vice versa.
Furthermore, it is one's own choice if a white Jew married a black Jew. There is nothing wrong with a white Jew being attracted to black Jews or vice versa...and for that matter, there is nothing wrong with a white Jew being unattracted to a black Jew either. It's a matter of preference and not superior or inferior genetics.
Normal athiest, I really have to disagree with this type of thinking.
First, by the laws of judaism, Jews can and only marry Jews black or white convert or non-convert.
Ideologies eg liberalism, conservatism etc can be changed in people's lives. Religion is tied to the soul, unlike many political ideologies.
As far as syrian jews only wanting to marry off to the same subculture, I can relate to that, but for completely different reasons as cited on this thread. I feel what makes a marriage more comfortable is if the married couple have more similar things in common, if it matters to them. In the persian, syrian, and iraqi jewish communities, the attitude goes with an extended family, not just husband and wife. Couples will choose eachother based on the others' families unlike most ashkenazi Jews.
But all in all, Jew should marry Jew doesn't matter the color of ones skin or the shape of ones eyes
to dan,i am realy disagree with your post.in the torah there were b\never a ban on jews marrying non jews,this ban was created during the babylon exile in a try to explain the destruction of the first temple (we have just learned this in history lesson).i think actually the opposite is true.we need to marry non jews white in order to expand our gene poll and eliminate diseases that are carried by recesive genes and are shown to be created in jewush fetuses only beacuse of the intermarriages.the reason i want allowed my child to marry a liberal even if he changed in the recent past (up to ten years ago) is that he didn't prove himself to be a true conservative /righ winger.the reason i won't allow my child to marry a black person is quite obxious and i won't recite them unless i would be asked for.
and finslly to the guy that said that i need more torah and less racism.i don't know about you but i am learning the torah (from the torah not from the gemara) 4 hours a week.and racism according to the dictionary is the belief that there are some races that are superior to others.now i don't know about you but i am proud to be racist and yes, i truly think that white and asian are superior to the blacks that didn't built any great civilizations in their history and are destroying any place they had infilirated to.
have a nice day,normal atheist.
dr. dan i must disagree with you on your latest post here.i din't said there are superior races ( i personally think that some of the asian and native americans society were or are one of the most advanced societies and we whites have a lot learn from them) but i do think that blacks are inherently inferior.a recent survey found that whites and asian as an average iq of 105 and blacks only have an avergae iq of 85.there are also unproportionaly number of blacks in jails in the us in relation to their proprotion of the population.now i agree with that normal blacks exists but i think this is the expection that theches us on the normal.also i would like to say that you remark on hitler are have very flawed as an argument.it is true that he was very evil person but i don't think one can use that to point that blacks aren't inferior.it is like to say that hitler was a vegetarian and beacuse of this we need to hate all the vegetarians on earth beacuse hitler was a vegetarian.and for your remark on the normal blacks.to say that beacuse there are some normal blacks we need to love them it is like to say that beacuse the libertarian national socialist party advocates zionism in her paltform (search their paltform and an opinion poll on zionism,you will find some intersting views) we need to love all the nazis,it is just sound very lame to me. 8)
sincerely,normal atheist.
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I have to disagree with you here.
I feel the reason why blacks have been unable to advance is not because of genetics, but because of culture and identifying with that culture through their own racist views and inferiority complexes....all of which is not what people are born with, but with how they were raised.
While IQ's might explain some things, they don't describe enough of one's genetics. IQ tests are not enough to prove much about anything.
Because one can have a high IQ and still be a lazy bum while the opposite can be true when someone is within normal limits and still be successful if they study and work hard.
Blacks and Arabs are a jealous people and this comes from their culture and not from their genes.
I also disagree with you with the concept that there are inferior races and superior races.
There are some black people, such as Paster Manning and Alan Keyes who are wonderful righteous people and only proves that it isn't the color of one's skin that makes them dumb or smart.
And look at Hitler, he was white and look at all the evil he ever did.
Therefore, you can't draw conclusions that white is better than black or vice versa.
Furthermore, it is one's own choice if a white Jew married a black Jew. There is nothing wrong with a white Jew being attracted to black Jews or vice versa...and for that matter, there is nothing wrong with a white Jew being unattracted to a black Jew either. It's a matter of preference and not superior or inferior genetics.
Normal athiest, I really have to disagree with this type of thinking.
First, by the laws of judaism, Jews can and only marry Jews black or white convert or non-convert.
Ideologies eg liberalism, conservatism etc can be changed in people's lives. Religion is tied to the soul, unlike many political ideologies.
As far as syrian jews only wanting to marry off to the same subculture, I can relate to that, but for completely different reasons as cited on this thread. I feel what makes a marriage more comfortable is if the married couple have more similar things in common, if it matters to them. In the persian, syrian, and iraqi jewish communities, the attitude goes with an extended family, not just husband and wife. Couples will choose eachother based on the others' families unlike most ashkenazi Jews.
But all in all, Jew should marry Jew doesn't matter the color of ones skin or the shape of ones eyes
to dan,i am realy disagree with your post.in the torah there were b\never a ban on jews marrying non jews,this ban was created during the babylon exile in a try to explain the destruction of the first temple (we have just learned this in history lesson).i think actually the opposite is true.we need to marry non jews white in order to expand our gene poll and eliminate diseases that are carried by recesive genes and are shown to be created in jewush fetuses only beacuse of the intermarriages.the reason i want allowed my child to marry a liberal even if he changed in the recent past (up to ten years ago) is that he didn't prove himself to be a true conservative /righ winger.the reason i won't allow my child to marry a black person is quite obxious and i won't recite them unless i would be asked for.
and finslly to the guy that said that i need more torah and less racism.i don't know about you but i am learning the torah (from the torah not from the gemara) 4 hours a week.and racism according to the dictionary is the belief that there are some races that are superior to others.now i don't know about you but i am proud to be racist and yes, i truly think that white and asian are superior to the blacks that didn't built any great civilizations in their history and are destroying any place they had infilirated to.
have a nice day,normal atheist.
dr. dan i must disagree with you on your latest post here.i din't said there are superior races ( i personally think that some of the asian and native americans society were or are one of the most advanced societies and we whites have a lot learn from them) but i do think that blacks are inherently inferior.a recent survey found that whites and asian as an average iq of 105 and blacks only have an avergae iq of 85.there are also unproportionaly number of blacks in jails in the us in relation to their proprotion of the population.now i agree with that normal blacks exists but i think this is the expection that theches us on the normal.also i would like to say that you remark on hitler are have very flawed as an argument.it is true that he was very evil person but i don't think one can use that to point that blacks aren't inferior.it is like to say that hitler was a vegetarian and beacuse of this we need to hate all the vegetarians on earth beacuse hitler was a vegetarian.and for your remark on the normal blacks.to say that beacuse there are some normal blacks we need to love them it is like to say that beacuse the libertarian national socialist party advocates zionism in her paltform (search their paltform and an opinion poll on zionism,you will find some intersting views) we need to love all the nazis,it is just sound very lame to me. 8)
sincerely,normal atheist.
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to dr. dan.
while i am agreeing with you about the black culture i must said that i belive that this defective culture is the result of these gnetical defects.the iq tests support the genetical theory beacuse it show that a large group with genetical link (blacks) have in average a lower iq then the rest of humanity.recent reaserches found that certain genes affect the iq (for example,the same gene that cause ty-sachs).they are also have a disporportionate number of their ranks in jail than their proportion within the entire united states.i heard from my genetics teacher in the gifted classes in the erica landau institute that a lot of the people that were in jail found to hasve yy chromosome instead of the normal xy so they have to much male hormones that cause them to be violent.agian this is a genetic trait.so that why i belive they defective culture is the result of genetics traits.
sincerely,normal atheist.
b.s:are you a doctor in genetics or a related field?
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to dr. dan.
while i am agreeing with you about the black culture i must said that i belive that this defective culture is the result of these gnetical defects.the iq tests support the genetical theory beacuse it show that a large group with genetical link (blacks) have in average a lower iq then the rest of humanity.recent reaserches found that certain genes affect the iq (for example,the same gene that cause ty-sachs).they are also have a disporportionate number of their ranks in jail than their proportion within the entire united states.i heard from my genetics teacher in the gifted classes in the erica landau institute that a lot of the people that were in jail found to hasve yy chromosome instead of the normal xy so they have to much male hormones that cause them to be violent.agian this is a genetic trait.so that why i belive they defective culture is the result of genetics traits.
sincerely,normal atheist.
b.s:are you a doctor in genetics or a related field?
So we agree on Black or other defect cultures that result in evil behavior. However, your feeling is that it is IQ and therefore genetics that make people that way. I'm telling you that isn't correct at all. If higher IQ meant higher intelligence and therefore successful civilization, then you would be missing the whole point or misunderstanding something.
I'll give some points. Do you realize how many really intelligent people are out there with high IQ's who are evil? And people with lower IQ's who are very decent human beings with decent cultures?
Why have civilizations, such as the Jewish one or another decent religion or morality or cultures lasted while others might have been successful and failed? It's not because high IQ, but because of choosing the right moral path and therefore the proper culture.
If blacks applied themselves, like Alan Keyes and Pastor Manning, didn't have inferiority complexes (not genetic), and acted morally and righteously, they would be in the same boat as most other nations. All human beings have free will to do what's right and wrong. It's not genetics nor IQ that makes them evil.
Secondly, no human being can survive if they just had a YY chromosome and the studies are scan and inconclusive that if a man were to have an XYY or XXYY gene that he is more likely to be aggressive and be a criminal. Thirdly, if a man had those chromosomes, it would be impossible for him to procreate and have viable children...he would be sterile.
Thirdly by claiming that there are "criminal" genes, a person can simply justify murder and bad behavior and criminal behavior because he was "born that way". That's a bunch of BS if you ask me.
Our genetics create what we will look like. Our behavior is based on our surroundings. Our religion and Gd will help us operate our free will of choosing right from wrong. Race and genetics is irrelevant.
I'm a Periodontist, but in college I studied a lot of biology and took many genetics, psychology, and religion courses. At this point the concept of nature vs. nurture (genetics vs behavior) comes second nature to me unless overwhelming evidence proves otherwise.
We also have other experts on this forum. I think our expert in medicine here would be JTFenthusiast so you can engage in conversation with him about genetics if you like.
And Judaism, with Muman and Chaim.
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The Samaritans were the enemies of the Jewish people during the Roman times...
During Roman times? More than 2000 years ago!!! Each nation is free to decide how long enemity for past events lasts, but certainly I don't follow that view. It sounds like bigotry to me to hate a people for a conflict of two milenia ago.
We mourn the destruction of the Temple 2000 years ago every year on Tish B'Av. There is no reason to forgive Essau and his descendants Edom... Those who helped the Romans will always be enemies of the Jewish people.
Then, why is JTF befriending the Western nations who are mostly descendants of Romans and Greeks? What's the problem with Samaritans? Perhaps the only problem is that you only remember them for what you have read about their ancestors and never met them actually. Anyway it's historically disputed that the Samaritans who were enemies of Jews had anything to do with the Samaritan Community. Samaritan can mean either inhabitant of Samaria or a member of the Shamerim or Shomronim community. How can you know if the Samaritans mentioned in Jewish sources were members of the Community or only people who lived in the region of Samaria?
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I don't mean to interject here as I can't comment on the original topic but I will say that genetics do play a role in behavior, the question of how much has yet to be answered and will not be for the foreseeable future considering the amount of social stigma attached the topic.
Ultimately though it doesn't really matter to me, I wish the blacks best of luck and hope they can achieve something on their own in their own communities and countries away from me, their success is not the White Races responsibility.
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Skie I agree. Slavery was a terrible thing and the right thing to do should have been and should be compensation for them to go back to their homeland one way ticket. And to get rid of affirmative action and additional aid.
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I don't mean to interject here as I can't comment on the original topic but I will say that genetics do play a role in behavior, the question of how much has yet to be answered and will not be for the foreseeable future considering the amount of social stigma attached the topic.
Ultimately though it doesn't really matter to me, I wish the blacks best of luck and hope they can achieve something on their own in their own communities and countries away from me, their success is not the White Races responsibility.
the opint is that beacuse they have such defect genetics they can't make any civilization as we seen in the last 5000 years in sub sharan africa were no real civilization arises until the 17th century with the intoduction of european influence to africa.but i honestly think we doesn't need to care about their problems.i personally just want them as far away from me as they can and i don't care where.for me they even could go to the oord nebula if they want i wish them bad luck and sahlom veloh lehitraot.
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Normal athiest. Where are u from? Is english your first language?
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Normal athiest. Where are u from? Is english your first language?
i am from israel,english isn't my first alnguage but i can speak english very well,the writing mistakes are the result of my bad habit to type very quickly and then to not check for the spelling mistakes i made.
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I don't mean to interject here as I can't comment on the original topic but I will say that genetics do play a role in behavior, the question of how much has yet to be answered and will not be for the foreseeable future considering the amount of social stigma attached the topic.
Ultimately though it doesn't really matter to me, I wish the blacks best of luck and hope they can achieve something on their own in their own communities and countries away from me, their success is not the White Races responsibility.
the opint is that beacuse they have such defect genetics they can't make any civilization as we seen in the last 5000 years in sub sharan africa were no real civilization arises until the 17th century with the intoduction of european influence to africa.but i honestly think we doesn't need to care about their problems.i personally just want them as far away from me as they can and i don't care where.for me they even could go to the oord nebula if they want i wish them bad luck and sahlom veloh lehitraot.
Maybe not so much defective genetics but a more primitive type of genetics. Sub-Saharan Africans have genes that are well-suited to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle or small-scale agricultural lifestyle on the plains of Africa. They're not so great at living in a Western lifestyle. There are of course, some exceptions, but most of those have significant white or other non-black admixture.
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it all falls down to this are IQ test an iron clad way of determining intelligence , remember it does not determine creativity or a myriad of other tings ..ok its proven people with high IQs can have jobs the require smarts ... answer this can a person with a low iq also attain such a job.. is it possible for person with an IQ of 90 to become a physician? 89? 87? The answer is yes , there are people that are extremely intelligent yet have normal iq or below the median ..
the IQ is a joke :laugh: and is outdated every good psychologist will tell you that .. mr atheist stop clinging to outdated psychology if people thought like you , we would still be drilling holes in peoples heads to let the demons out lol.. there is so much newer and better research being done to understand intelligence
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it all falls down to this are IQ test an iron clad way of determining intelligence , remember it does not determine creativity or a myriad of other tings ..ok its proven people with high IQs can have jobs the require smarts ... answer this can a person with a low iq also attain such a job.. is it possible for person with an IQ of 90 to become a physician? 89? 87? The answer is yes , there are people that are extremely intelligent yet have normal iq or below the median ..
the IQ is a joke :laugh: and is outdated every good psychologist will tell you that .. mr atheist stop clinging to outdated psychology if people thought like you , we would still be drilling holes in peoples heads to let the demons out lol.. there is so much newer and better research being done to understand intelligence
oych please,i had posted the relevance of iq in many other threads.
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I think in this case it shows a lack of understanding of their own religion. They're viewing the converts as non-Jews when this shouldn't be the case. It's extremely hard to crack such beliefs because many Jewish communities still don't fully trust the "goyim" to this day.
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Normal not all studies are created sequel u believe all u read..poor form.I bet you r one of those people that never read the Bible yet claims to be an athiest
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Again. There is such a thing as a poor research. .old. .done in a bad school. Biased. Bad Dr.etc etc didn't see anything good
N
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Again. There is such a thing as a poor research. .old. .done in a bad school. Biased. Bad Dr.etc etc didn't see anything good
N
actually the 19th century reaserches are the best beacuse they weren't contaminated by politically correct bias.
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Again. There is such a thing as a poor research. .old. .done in a bad school. Biased. Bad Dr.etc etc didn't see anything good
N
actually the 19th century reaserches are the best beacuse they weren't contaminated by politically correct bias.
Yet they were still tainted by old biases. You are naive if you think otherwise...
Remember that by German 'scientists' who to this day as still recognized as great figures of modern science, the Jew was considered inferior in both mental and physical strength. Just look at the 'science' of phrenology and other psuedo-sciences which were used to justify the Holocaust against the Jewish people of Europe...
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/NaziMedEx.html
v. Tuberculosis Experiments
The Nazis conducted experiments to determine whether there were any natural immunities to Tuberculosis ("TB") and to develop a vaccination serum against TB. Doctor Heissmeyer sought to disprove the popular belief that TB was an infectious disease. Doctor Heissmeyer claimed that only an "exhaustive" organism was receptive to such infection, most of all the racially "inferior organism of the Jews."
Heissmeyer injected live tubercle bacilli into the subjects' lungs to immunize against TB. He also removed the lymph glands from the arms of twenty Jewish children. About 200 adult subjects perished, and twenty children were hanged at the Bullenhauser Dam in Heissmeyer's effort to hide the experiments from the approaching Allied Army.
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Remember that by German 'scientists' who to this day as still recognized as great figures of modern science,
In what universe is that true?
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Remember that by German 'scientists' who to this day as still recognized as great figures of modern science,
In what universe is that true?
only in fantasy universe.
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Remember that by German 'scientists' who to this day as still recognized as great figures of modern science,
In what universe is that true?
only in fantasy universe.
No, in this universe, for sure...
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:NS6RFvCix9UJ:download.yutorah.org/2008/1053/725074/An%2520Ethical%2520Debate:%2520Should%2520Scientists%2520Use%2520Data%2520from%2520Nazi%2520Experiements.pdf+german+scientists&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiIxtevCJP-BHfK5rC_1OluBKdyyqkAuM5f9wQaJAdNt3jWpq_gn_FTsNwhRyhaEaLskp42aqdqUBUT1Sc0mJ26PBa5Tyzcjkd8y58_qGy_nPMNfkOwVWLH5c7rLCI14CkIpR_G&sig=AHIEtbQWHJ7FM00hBh0LJVaBv6keUj1dGg (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:NS6RFvCix9UJ:download.yutorah.org/2008/1053/725074/An%2520Ethical%2520Debate:%2520Should%2520Scientists%2520Use%2520Data%2520from%2520Nazi%2520Experiements.pdf+german+scientists&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiIxtevCJP-BHfK5rC_1OluBKdyyqkAuM5f9wQaJAdNt3jWpq_gn_FTsNwhRyhaEaLskp42aqdqUBUT1Sc0mJ26PBa5Tyzcjkd8y58_qGy_nPMNfkOwVWLH5c7rLCI14CkIpR_G&sig=AHIEtbQWHJ7FM00hBh0LJVaBv6keUj1dGg)
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/NaziMedEx.html
http://www.aish.com/ho/i/48954311.html
The world's most cultured people were known for the most inhuman behavior.
On Yom HaShoah, Israel's national memorial day for the Holocaust, the media is filled with personal accounts of the survivors of that national catastrophe. The enormity of suffering which they depict makes a listener aware of how inadequate human emotions are in supplying a fitting response.
On an intellectual level, these stories inevitably evoke an important question. Since these atrocities could not have been perpetrated without the active or passive participation of millions of Germans, how could a nation which was then the leader of Western culture -- in art, music, culture and science -- sink to such a level of inhumanity? The explanation usually given is that in the pre-war years the economic and social pressures were so overpowering for Germans, that they could not pay attention to their culture.
A survivor's story casts a new perspective on this issue. In an article in Israeli newspaper, Ha-Aretz, a doctoral student relates the story of her mother who survived Auschwitz because of the latter's musical talents. The infamous Dr. Mengele, medical director of that camp, is well-known for the medical experiments which he performed on concentration camp inmates. These included such "scientific" inquiries as the length of time a man can survive being submerged in freezing water, which level of torture causes unconsciousness; how small children react to physical mutilations, and the like.
Dr. Mengele, who tortured Auschwitz inmates, was a great devotee of classical music.
What is less known about Mengele, at least until this article was published, is that he was a devotee of classical music. In fact, in the same building known as "the experimentation block" there was a "music room" in which he would indulge his talent of violin playing. When the above-mentioned woman arrived at Auschwitz, Mengele noted in her record that she was a pianist and asked her to perform for him. He was so impressed with her talents that he decided to give her special treatment, a privilege that ultimately spared her life.
In addition to the usual slave labor to which all inmates were subjected, this woman had to perform periodically for Mengele, often while the latter would accompany her on his violin. In particular, the article relates, he loved to have her play Shubert's "Serenade" and the religious hymn, "Ave Maria."
So important was music to Mengele, that he trained one of his dogs to be sensitive to every nuance of his favorite compositions. If ever the woman would play a note inaccurately, the dog would pounce on her and viciously bite her. This happened many times when she was forced to perform before Mengele when she was unable to concentrate fully on her playing, such as after she had contracted tuberculosis.
She had at least ten scars all over her body resulting from dog-bites incurred by lapses in her performance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
Operation Paperclip was the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) program used to recruit the scientists of Nazi Germany for employment by the United States in the aftermath of World War II (1939–45). It was executed by the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (JIOA), and in the context of the burgeoning Soviet–American Cold War (1945–91), one purpose of Operation Paperclip was to deny German scientific knowledge and expertise to the USSR[2] and the UK.[3]
Although the JIOA’s recruitment of German scientists began after the European Allied victory (8 May 1945), US President Harry Truman did not formally order the execution of Operation Paperclip until August 1945. Truman's order expressly excluded anyone found “to have been a member of the Nazi Party, and more than a nominal participant in its activities, or an active supporter of Nazi militarism.” Said restriction would have rendered ineligible most of the scientists the JIOA had identified for recruitment, among them rocket scientists Wernher von Braun and Arthur Rudolph, and the physician Hubertus Strughold, each earlier classified as a “menace to the security of the Allied Forces”.
To circumvent President Truman’s anti-Nazi order, and the Allied Potsdam and Yalta agreements, the JIOA worked independently to create false employment and political biographies for the scientists. The JIOA also expunged from the public record the scientists' Nazi Party memberships and régime affiliations. Once “bleached” of their Nazism, the US Government granted the scientists security clearance to work in the United States. Paperclip, the project’s operational name, derived from the paperclips used to attach the scientists’ new political personæ to their “US Government Scientist” JIOA personnel files.[4]
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Ohm, Hertz, Heisinger, Max Planck, Einstein, Riemann, Haber and so many more... all Germans
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Ohm, Hertz, Heisinger, Max Planck, Einstein, Riemann, Haber and so many more... all Germans
LOL! Are you claiming Max Planck carried out nazi experiments on Jewish children? The ignorance here is astounding!
Muman cited an evil behema (animal) and claimed that "modern science" hails the person as a "great figure." Then you cite Einstein. Give me a break.
Btw, did you realize that while being a German Einstein was also Jewish too!? Unbelievable.
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I am claiming that they were all Brilliant scientists
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Remember that by German 'scientists' who to this day as still recognized as great figures of modern science,
In what universe is that true?
only in fantasy universe.
No, in this universe, for sure...
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:NS6RFvCix9UJ:download.yutorah.org/2008/1053/725074/An%2520Ethical%2520Debate:%2520Should%2520Scientists%2520Use%2520Data%2520from%2520Nazi%2520Experiements.pdf+german+scientists&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiIxtevCJP-BHfK5rC_1OluBKdyyqkAuM5f9wQaJAdNt3jWpq_gn_FTsNwhRyhaEaLskp42aqdqUBUT1Sc0mJ26PBa5Tyzcjkd8y58_qGy_nPMNfkOwVWLH5c7rLCI14CkIpR_G&sig=AHIEtbQWHJ7FM00hBh0LJVaBv6keUj1dGg (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:NS6RFvCix9UJ:download.yutorah.org/2008/1053/725074/An%2520Ethical%2520Debate:%2520Should%2520Scientists%2520Use%2520Data%2520from%2520Nazi%2520Experiements.pdf+german+scientists&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiIxtevCJP-BHfK5rC_1OluBKdyyqkAuM5f9wQaJAdNt3jWpq_gn_FTsNwhRyhaEaLskp42aqdqUBUT1Sc0mJ26PBa5Tyzcjkd8y58_qGy_nPMNfkOwVWLH5c7rLCI14CkIpR_G&sig=AHIEtbQWHJ7FM00hBh0LJVaBv6keUj1dGg)
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/NaziMedEx.html
http://www.aish.com/ho/i/48954311.html
The world's most cultured people were known for the most inhuman behavior.
Sorry Muman, but it appears you have cited several items that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand and have no relevance to the question I asked or the claim you made.
Please try again.
(You appear to be conflating separate issues).
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I am claiming that they were all Brilliant scientists
Let me hope for clarification:
"And what point do you attempt to make by saying they are great scientists?"
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Sorry, I may have misread. I thought two people were disputing the great achievements of Germans in the realm of science. Before WWII, I can't see how anyone could make this claim. In most graduate chemistry and physics programs to this day, one must pass an exam demonstrating reading knowledge of German and Russian
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Sorry, I may have misread. I thought two people were disputing the great achievements of Germans in the realm of science. Before WWII, I can't see how anyone could make this claim.
No problem.
Indeed, no question about it.
In that case, don't forget Krebs and Warburg too!
The argument was about something else entirely.
Btw, in case you're interested you may know that Krebs was Jewish.... Well his sister made aliyah and started a family in Israel and she always resented his self-hating stance with regards to allied post-war treatment of Germany. I think she may have cut off contact from him completely if I remember correctly.
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I am saying, and there is ample evidence, that Nazi scientists were considered some of the most brilliant scientists of the era. The United States intelligence and science community leapt at the chance to bring many of these evil creatures to the United States during Operation Paperclip {which I posted a reference to above}...
There is no disputing that the german scientists were and still are respected around the world as some of the best and brightest of scientists... And these were scientists who may have been involved with using Jews in horrible experiments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_paperclip
During later decades, the wartime activities of some Project Paperclip scientists were investigated. Arthur Rudolph was deported in 1984, and then exonerated by West Germany[17]. Similarly, Georg Rickhey was acquitted of war crimes. Hubertus Strughold was implicated in Nazi human experimentation; the aeromedical library at Brooks Air Force Base was named after him in 1977, however it was later renamed because documents from the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal linked Strughold to medical experiments in which inmates from Dachau were tortured and killed.[18]
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I am saying, and there is ample evidence, that Nazi scientists were considered some of the most brilliant scientists of the era.
Now you're saying something different. But by referring to German scientists as "nazi scientists," you conflate different issues. Not all German scientists were Nazis. In fact, some of the greatest German scientists of that era, who transformed the entire modern world, were Jews!
There is no disputing that the german scientists were and still are respected around the world as some of the best and brightest of scientists...
Good so far And these were scientists who may have been involved with using Jews in horrible experiments.
Now you've entered into unsubstantiated territory with this last bit. You cannot document this with a citation or source because it is patently ridiculous! The German scientists who are praised are the ones who did good science! Horrific and sadistic experiments on humans for racial purposes is not considered "good science" by anyone except maybe neo-nazis. No one holds dr. mengele in high esteem as a researcher. He was moreso a horrificly cruel sadistic animal than a scientist by any rational account. It is time you stop labeling the entire discipline of science as the boogeyman.
Bringing a quote about operation paperclip says something about the CIA, not about "modern science."
-
I am saying, and there is ample evidence, that Nazi scientists were considered some of the most brilliant scientists of the era.
Now you're saying something different. But by referring to German scientists as "nazi scientists," you conflate different issues. Not all German scientists were Nazis. In fact, some of the greatest German scientists of that era, who transformed the entire modern world, were Jews!
There is no disputing that the german scientists were and still are respected around the world as some of the best and brightest of scientists...
Good so far And these were scientists who may have been involved with using Jews in horrible experiments.
Now you've entered into unsubstantiated territory with this last bit. You cannot document this with a citation or source because it is patently ridiculous! The German scientists who are praised are the ones who did good science! Horrific and sadistic experiments on humans for racial purposes is not considered "good science" by anyone except maybe neo-nazis. No one holds dr. mengele in high esteem as a researcher. He was moreso a horrificly cruel sadistic animal than a scientist by any rational account. It is time you stop labeling the entire discipline of science as the boogeyman.
Bringing a quote about operation paperclip says something about the CIA, not about "modern science."
KWRBT,
I am not making any statement about good science in my posts... I was simply trying to show, originally to NA who was attempting to use some scientific racial evidence..
"actually the 19th century reaserches are the best beacuse they weren't contaminated by politically correct bias."
I wanted to make clear that just because 'science' occured in the 19th and 20th centuries that it too may be biased for a variety of reasons. Most obvious was the use of 'science' by the Nazis to brand Jews as sub-humans and psuedo-genetics which proved Jews to be inferior..
Again. There is such a thing as a poor research. .old. .done in a bad school. Biased. Bad Dr.etc etc didn't see anything good
N
actually the 19th century reaserches are the best beacuse they weren't contaminated by politically correct bias.
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Regarding German scientists and Operation Paperclip:
It wasn't just science -- Prior to WWII, Germany was the most advanced country in the world, far ahead of everyone else in science, medicine, literature, philosophy, music, art, manufacturing, etc. Germany was also the first country in the world to implement social security safety nets for its citizens, and Germans were considered the most cultured, the most advanced, the most highly educated, and the most civilized people on the planet.
After WWII, with the Americans and Soviets occupying a divided Nazi State and starting their own "Cold War", the race was on to make "deals" with those scientists who were leading Germany's war effort in physics, aerospace and military research, many of whom were "conscripted" into service and had no choice but to serve their homeland. In real terms, these men were all seized and arrested by both Americans and Soviets, and then given the choice to a) either switch sides and work for their new captors in military and aerospace research, or never be seen again. In the case of American prisoners, the additional blackmail of "being turned over to the Soviets to face war crimes charges" were used as incentives to make them cooperate.
In spite of the necessity to come out ahead of the competition, America's hands ended up covered in blood, as more than a few monsters were brought to America and given new lives with all the benefits of citizenship.
If there is a lesson to be learned out of all of this, it is that the most civilized and educated people on earth fell sway to mass psychosis and barbarism when their government became incapable of governing, their economy was destroyed by unjust war reparations and hyperinflation, and their national pride was humiliated on the world stage. Rabbi Kahane was clear in his teaching that the German of the 1920's was more cultured, more educated, more hospitable, and less violent than we Americans are today, and yet when faced with literal starvation and hopelessness did what all human beings will do under the same circumstances: They look for a scapegoat and for someone who will make sense and order out of chaos. America today strongly resembles the German Weimar Republic in terms of immorality, corruption, a ruined economy, and a Fifth Column of leftists working from within to destroy the social fabric. It's a short leap from being an abortion doctor to becoming a research doctor experimenting on live human prisoners of the state. If you think that we are innately different in human nature than were the Germans who embraced Nazism you are wrong.
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Again. There is such a thing as a poor research. .old. .done in a bad school. Biased. Bad Dr.etc etc didn't see anything good
N
actually the 19th century reaserches are the best beacuse they weren't contaminated by politically correct bias.
normal atheist that was soo funny :laugh: your very ideas are biased . go to your 18thcenturay dr ill go to my modern one
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Regarding German scientists and Operation Paperclip:
It wasn't just science -- Prior to WWII, Germany was the most advanced country in the world, far ahead of everyone else in science, medicine, literature, philosophy, music, art, manufacturing, etc. Germany was also the first country in the world to implement social security safety nets for its citizens, and Germans were considered the most cultured, the most advanced, the most highly educated, and the most civilized people on the planet.
After WWII, with the Americans and Soviets occupying a divided Nazi State and starting their own "Cold War", the race was on to make "deals" with those scientists who were leading Germany's war effort in physics, aerospace and military research, many of whom were "conscripted" into service and had no choice but to serve their homeland. In real terms, these men were all seized and arrested by both Americans and Soviets, and then given the choice to a) either switch sides and work for their new captors in military and aerospace research, or never be seen again. In the case of American prisoners, the additional blackmail of "being turned over to the Soviets to face war crimes charges" were used as incentives to make them cooperate.
In spite of the necessity to come out ahead of the competition, America's hands ended up covered in blood, as more than a few monsters were brought to America and given new lives with all the benefits of citizenship.
If there is a lesson to be learned out of all of this, it is that the most civilized and educated people on earth fell sway to mass psychosis and barbarism when their government became incapable of governing, their economy was destroyed by unjust war reparations and hyperinflation, and their national pride was humiliated on the world stage. Rabbi Kahane was clear in his teaching that the German of the 1920's was more cultured, more educated, more hospitable, and less violent than we Americans are today, and yet when faced with literal starvation and hopelessness did what all human beings will do under the same circumstances: They look for a scapegoat and for someone who will make sense and order out of chaos. America today strongly resembles the German Weimar Republic in terms of immorality, corruption, a ruined economy, and a Fifth Column of leftists working from within to destroy the social fabric. It's a short leap from being an abortion doctor to becoming a research doctor experimenting on live human prisoners of the state. If you think that we are innately different in human nature than were the Germans who embraced Nazism you are wrong.
MassuhDGoodName,
You nailed it right on the head with this one... This is part of my point...
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I am saying, and there is ample evidence, that Nazi scientists were considered some of the most brilliant scientists of the era.
Now you're saying something different. But by referring to German scientists as "nazi scientists," you conflate different issues. Not all German scientists were Nazis. In fact, some of the greatest German scientists of that era, who transformed the entire modern world, were Jews!
There is no disputing that the german scientists were and still are respected around the world as some of the best and brightest of scientists...
Good so far And these were scientists who may have been involved with using Jews in horrible experiments.
Now you've entered into unsubstantiated territory with this last bit. You cannot document this with a citation or source because it is patently ridiculous! The German scientists who are praised are the ones who did good science! Horrific and sadistic experiments on humans for racial purposes is not considered "good science" by anyone except maybe neo-nazis. No one holds dr. mengele in high esteem as a researcher. He was moreso a horrificly cruel sadistic animal than a scientist by any rational account. It is time you stop labeling the entire discipline of science as the boogeyman.
Bringing a quote about operation paperclip says something about the CIA, not about "modern science."
KWRBT,
I am not making any statement about good science in my posts... I was simply trying to show, originally to NA who was attempting to use some scientific racial evidence..
"actually the 19th century reaserches are the best beacuse they weren't contaminated by politically correct bias."
I wanted to make clear that just because 'science' occured in the 19th and 20th centuries that it too may be biased for a variety of reasons. Most obvious was the use of 'science' by the Nazis to brand Jews as sub-humans and psuedo-genetics which proved Jews to be inferior..
Again. There is such a thing as a poor research. .old. .done in a bad school. Biased. Bad Dr.etc etc didn't see anything good
N
actually the 19th century reaserches are the best beacuse they weren't contaminated by politically correct bias.
what is your point? i am sure that if a great scientist today would claim that the arabs are sub human you wouldn't mind that.or pehaps you will go and dfened the arabs with dr. bernnan fan
-
I am saying, and there is ample evidence, that Nazi scientists were considered some of the most brilliant scientists of the era.
Now you're saying something different. But by referring to German scientists as "nazi scientists," you conflate different issues. Not all German scientists were Nazis. In fact, some of the greatest German scientists of that era, who transformed the entire modern world, were Jews!
There is no disputing that the german scientists were and still are respected around the world as some of the best and brightest of scientists...
Good so far And these were scientists who may have been involved with using Jews in horrible experiments.
Now you've entered into unsubstantiated territory with this last bit. You cannot document this with a citation or source because it is patently ridiculous! The German scientists who are praised are the ones who did good science! Horrific and sadistic experiments on humans for racial purposes is not considered "good science" by anyone except maybe neo-nazis. No one holds dr. mengele in high esteem as a researcher. He was moreso a horrificly cruel sadistic animal than a scientist by any rational account. It is time you stop labeling the entire discipline of science as the boogeyman.
Bringing a quote about operation paperclip says something about the CIA, not about "modern science."
KWRBT,
I am not making any statement about good science in my posts... I was simply trying to show, originally to NA who was attempting to use some scientific racial evidence..
"actually the 19th century reaserches are the best beacuse they weren't contaminated by politically correct bias."
I wanted to make clear that just because 'science' occured in the 19th and 20th centuries that it too may be biased for a variety of reasons. Most obvious was the use of 'science' by the Nazis to brand Jews as sub-humans and psuedo-genetics which proved Jews to be inferior..
Again. There is such a thing as a poor research. .old. .done in a bad school. Biased. Bad Dr.etc etc didn't see anything good
N
actually the 19th century reaserches are the best beacuse they weren't contaminated by politically correct bias.
Ok. I'll agree with you there. It's very foolhardy to assume that scientists in any era, but particularly in the 19th century as you note where there was a prevalence of racist theory amongst many intellectuals, are/were without bias. The scientists themselves will always have a bias like anyone else does when it comes to whatever issues. The scientific method is in place with oversight and peer review to ensure that the science they produce is not connected with these biases, transcends them, or at least even if they are there, they can be discerned based on the facts of the study and the conclusions drawn (depending on how weak or strong the conclusions being drawn by the researchers from their results are).
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what is your point? i am sure that if a great scientist today would claim that the arabs are sub human you wouldn't mind that.or pehaps you will go and dfened the arabs with dr. bernnan fan
Hmm. What does this comment mean exactly?
And you say "you wouldn't mind" "or perhaps you will go defend the Arabs"
That's like saying "you'll say yes, or you'll say no." I'm not sure what point you are trying to make to Muman (or how it's relevant to the discussion).
Muman points out that indeed biases existed amongst scientists in the so-called "pure" era you refer to. Are you suggesting that believing Jews are subhuman is not inherently incorrect (and therefore it is merely the product of a bias)? Or are you saying something else?
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what is your point? i am sure that if a great scientist today would claim that the arabs are sub human you wouldn't mind that.or pehaps you will go and dfened the arabs with dr. bernnan fan
Hmm. What does this comment mean exactly?
And you say "you wouldn't mind" "or perhaps you will go defend the Arabs"
That's like saying "you'll say yes, or you'll say no." I'm not sure what point you are trying to make to Muman (or how it's relevant to the discussion).
Muman points out that indeed biases existed amongst scientists in the so-called "pure" era you refer to. Are you suggesting that believing Jews are subhuman is not inherently incorrect (and therefore it is merely the product of a bias)? Or are you saying something else?
KWRBT,
You have not experienced normal atheist. This specimen is a Jewish White Nationalist who has some of the wildest racist theories... Dont even get involved...
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what is your point? i am sure that if a great scientist today would claim that the arabs are sub human you wouldn't mind that.or pehaps you will go and dfened the arabs with dr. bernnan fan
Hmm. What does this comment mean exactly?
And you say "you wouldn't mind" "or perhaps you will go defend the Arabs"
That's like saying "you'll say yes, or you'll say no." I'm not sure what point you are trying to make to Muman (or how it's relevant to the discussion).
Muman points out that indeed biases existed amongst scientists in the so-called "pure" era you refer to. Are you suggesting that believing Jews are subhuman is not inherently incorrect (and therefore it is merely the product of a bias)? Or are you saying something else?
KWRBT,
You have not experienced normal atheist. This specimen is a Jewish White Nationalist who has some of the wildest racist theories... Dont even get involved...
so you are against wn? perhaps you hate the white race? if so what are you doing in the forum?
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oh almost forgot.and pehaps you are supporting this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVzpNCm4oCE
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I am saying, and there is ample evidence, that Nazi scientists were considered some of the most brilliant scientists of the era.
Now you're saying something different. But by referring to German scientists as "nazi scientists," you conflate different issues. Not all German scientists were Nazis. In fact, some of the greatest German scientists of that era, who transformed the entire modern world, were Jews!
There is no disputing that the german scientists were and still are respected around the world as some of the best and brightest of scientists...
Good so far And these were scientists who may have been involved with using Jews in horrible experiments.
Now you've entered into unsubstantiated territory with this last bit. You cannot document this with a citation or source because it is patently ridiculous! The German scientists who are praised are the ones who did good science! Horrific and sadistic experiments on humans for racial purposes is not considered "good science" by anyone except maybe neo-nazis. No one holds dr. mengele in high esteem as a researcher. He was moreso a horrificly cruel sadistic animal than a scientist by any rational account. It is time you stop labeling the entire discipline of science as the boogeyman.
Bringing a quote about operation paperclip says something about the CIA, not about "modern science."
KWRBT,
I am not making any statement about good science in my posts... I was simply trying to show, originally to NA who was attempting to use some scientific racial evidence..
"actually the 19th century reaserches are the best beacuse they weren't contaminated by politically correct bias."
I wanted to make clear that just because 'science' occured in the 19th and 20th centuries that it too may be biased for a variety of reasons. Most obvious was the use of 'science' by the Nazis to brand Jews as sub-humans and psuedo-genetics which proved Jews to be inferior..
Again. There is such a thing as a poor research. .old. .done in a bad school. Biased. Bad Dr.etc etc didn't see anything good
N
actually the 19th century reaserches are the best beacuse they weren't contaminated by politically correct bias.
what is your point? i am sure that if a great scientist today would claim that the arabs are sub human you wouldn't mind that.or pehaps you will go and dfened the arabs with dr. bernnan fan
Well no actually I would disagree the problem is Islam not the semetic race all the greatest jews from Abraham to Daniel Nd ezikel were semetic. Oh yea ur an athiest. Ur not really pro Jewish from your handle u think we r nuts for believing the Seasplit in Exodus. .we aren't racist..but you are
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I am saying, and there is ample evidence, that Nazi scientists were considered some of the most brilliant scientists of the era.
Now you're saying something different. But by referring to German scientists as "nazi scientists," you conflate different issues. Not all German scientists were Nazis. In fact, some of the greatest German scientists of that era, who transformed the entire modern world, were Jews!
There is no disputing that the german scientists were and still are respected around the world as some of the best and brightest of scientists...
Good so far And these were scientists who may have been involved with using Jews in horrible experiments.
Now you've entered into unsubstantiated territory with this last bit. You cannot document this with a citation or source because it is patently ridiculous! The German scientists who are praised are the ones who did good science! Horrific and sadistic experiments on humans for racial purposes is not considered "good science" by anyone except maybe neo-nazis. No one holds dr. mengele in high esteem as a researcher. He was moreso a horrificly cruel sadistic animal than a scientist by any rational account. It is time you stop labeling the entire discipline of science as the boogeyman.
Bringing a quote about operation paperclip says something about the CIA, not about "modern science."
KWRBT,
I am not making any statement about good science in my posts... I was simply trying to show, originally to NA who was attempting to use some scientific racial evidence..
"actually the 19th century reaserches are the best beacuse they weren't contaminated by politically correct bias."
I wanted to make clear that just because 'science' occured in the 19th and 20th centuries that it too may be biased for a variety of reasons. Most obvious was the use of 'science' by the Nazis to brand Jews as sub-humans and psuedo-genetics which proved Jews to be inferior..
Again. There is such a thing as a poor research. .old. .done in a bad school. Biased. Bad Dr.etc etc didn't see anything good
N
actually the 19th century reaserches are the best beacuse they weren't contaminated by politically correct bias.
what is your point? i am sure that if a great scientist today would claim that the arabs are sub human you wouldn't mind that.or pehaps you will go and dfened the arabs with dr. bernnan fan
Well no actually I would disagree the problem is Islam not the semetic race all the greatest jews from Abraham to Daniel Nd ezikel were semetic. Oh yea ur an athiest. Ur not really pro Jewish from your handle u think we r nuts for believing the Seasplit in Exodus. .we aren't racist..but you are
i am nuts? at least i didn't defended any arab or negroes like some of us did.
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what is your point? i am sure that if a great scientist today would claim that the arabs are sub human you wouldn't mind that.or pehaps you will go and dfened the arabs with dr. bernnan fan
Hmm. What does this comment mean exactly?
And you say "you wouldn't mind" "or perhaps you will go defend the Arabs"
That's like saying "you'll say yes, or you'll say no." I'm not sure what point you are trying to make to Muman (or how it's relevant to the discussion).
Muman points out that indeed biases existed amongst scientists in the so-called "pure" era you refer to. Are you suggesting that believing Jews are subhuman is not inherently incorrect (and therefore it is merely the product of a bias)? Or are you saying something else?
KWRBT,
You have not experienced normal atheist. This specimen is a Jewish White Nationalist who has some of the wildest racist theories... Dont even get involved...
Now I understand especially seeing the rest of the thread. Thanks, Muman.