JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Secularbeliever on April 06, 2010, 10:08:36 PM
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/136865
This has to be one of the dumbest moves of the year. With all the problems facing Jews in general and nationalists in particular we really don't need someone picking a fight between religious and secular nationalists. I realize the Rabbi says he will work with secular nationalists and I understand the weakness of secular nationalism for Israelis but this is a time to concentrate on accomplishing things when the whole world wants to push Jews out of Judea Samaria and the Golan.
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http://kahane.blogspot.com/2007/06/bankruptcy-of-secular-zionism.html (http://kahane.blogspot.com/2007/06/bankruptcy-of-secular-zionism.html)
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You also have to look at the other side of the coin. Without secular Jewish leaders such as Herzl, Ben Gurion, Jabotinsky, Begin, Eldad, Shamir, etc. Zionism would never have gotten off the ground. There have been religious Jewish leaders (and still are with Satmar and Nateura Karta) who believe that Jews are not ready yet (if not now when) to return to Israel. The point is not to poke each other in the eye which is easy enough to do, but to work on getting Jews to Israel and keeping the Land of Israel in Jewish control. My own opinion is that Jews need both their secular members, who make up the great majority of the Jewish people as well as the religious people. In this era I think the religious Jews will provide the leadership but leadership is not well exercised by picking a useless fight with fellow Jews.
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Secualr Zionism is coherent since Jews are an ethnicity besides a religion. If it is moral or not it's a matter of faith. I won't make an opinion about it.
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Every "secular" "nationalist" should ask himself why is he not an illegitimate occupier.
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(hint: the Divine Promise is the only justification for us to be here).
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Every "secular" "nationalist" should ask himself why is he not an illegitimate occupier.
Secular nationalists believe the Jewish People have a right to self-determination. They need not be orthodox, religious or even believe in G-d to believe that Jews have legal, moral, historic, and military claims to the Land of Israel.
I can understand orthodox observant Jews believing that the 'religious' claim to the Land is the best and most important claim -- but don't understand why some think this is the only legitimate claim.
Orthodox 'nationalists' need to ask themselves how they intend to deal with secular Jews that choose to live in Israel.
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He is only pointing out the obvious, what has been obvious for decades. Rabbi Kahane also spoke about this, that the secular Likudniks will ultimately fold on their values because negotiation and compromise is the prevailing methodology. We have seen this happen again and again and we see it with Bibi. I'm surprised at the reaction to this article.
I also find mike vienna's comment on that article apt. He says "The correct headline is "secular nationalism unsustainable ". Anyone who wants proof of this need only look at Tzipi Livni (y "sh). Her father was a Lehi commander. On his gravestone he had them put the Lehi insignia and the words "both sides of the Jordan ". Any questions?"
Indeed, it is not sustainable. It's a self-destructive system.
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I am not aware of any "secular nationalists" or "secular Zionists" who have remained firm and held their ground throughout their lives. If I am not mistaken, as a teen even Noam Chomsky (yimach schmo) was a "secular Zionist". This is an empty and hollow philosophy that does not last.