RG says:
June 15, 2010 at 9:56 am
Yoav Lallum does not need security officers.
The people of Emanuel need protection – from this media fabrication and miscarriage of justice.
Most of the Slonimer Hassidim have grandmothers who are Edut-HaMizrach – (Palestinian Jewish) women from Tiberias, where its Kollel was located since over 100 years ago unti the recent generation, when most of the community moved to Jerusalem. The yeshiva students married the local Palestinian Jewish women. So they are part Edut-HaMizrach, colloquially known as Sephardic.
The Beis Yaakov Chasidi was founded in 2007 as a stricter alternative to the original Beis Yaakov.
There are two other girls’ schools in Emanuel – theoriginal more lenient Beis Yaakov, the Chabad Lubavitch school founded in the late 1990’s, and the Beit Rachel and Leah, under the Shas-Mayan network of Sephardic schools, founded in 2007. This new Sephardic girls’ school attracted no media attention or lawsuits.
The three boy’s schools were then and continue to be Chabad Lubavitch, Shas-Mayan Sephardic, and Chassidic.
INVESTIGATION BY MINISTRY OF EDUCATION
Shulamit Amichai, the head of the Ministry of Education in 2007, sent attorney Mordechai Bass to investigate the situation. His states, “The division was not ethnic, it was religious. I am convinced that there is no ethnic discrimination.” (See synopsis at bottom of page).
30% of the girls attending Beis Yaakov Chasidi are Sephardic, not including those of blended heritage. 20% of the students in the original Beis Yaakov are Ashkenazi, many have blended heritage.
The guiding principles of our community are its various philosophies, not heritage. The leaders of the Beis Yaakov Chasidi really did not know or care who was Sephardic, Ashkenazic, newly religious, religious for generations, until this issue hit the news and they had to answer this question.
RAV SHIMON BA’ADANI FORBIDS USING SECULAR COURTS AND SECULAR MEDIA
HaRav HaGaon Rav Ba’adani wrote a letter that was distributed to every family in Emanuel in 2007 forbidding the bringing of grievances to the secular media or courts, and that any grievance must be brought to a religious court. It is a widely held practice to air grievances with the local Rabbi before going to religious court.
Rav Ba’adani is widely respected in the Haredi world. It is unlikely that anyone in the Beis Yaakov Chasidi or the original Beis Yaakov or Beit Rachel and Leah (the newly founded girls’ Sephardic School, unnoticed by the media or courts) or the Sephardic boys’ school or the Chassidic boys’ school would bring complaints to the secular media.
COURT HEARING APRIL 29 2010
The parents of the girls in the Beis Yaakov Chasidi who happen to be Sephardic petitioned to meet with the Supreme Court Judge Levi during the initial phases. He refused to meet with them.
The very first time the judge met with the parents was on April 29 2010. Only half the parents were allowed into the court, as there were many spectators in the courtroom. But if these parents were subpoenaed, shouldn’t the court have made room for them?
None of the parents were put on the stand or cross-examined
.
Judge Levi ordered representatives of the Beis Yaakov Chasidi to work out a compromise with the plaintiffs. That means that Yoav Lallum, was to be involved in the forming of the school’s rules.
And since no “agreement” had been reached, unlikely when working with an anti-religious activist, on May 17 Judge Admon Levi ordered all the girls to return to school and all be in the same classes. He also ordered that the Sephardic and Ashkenazi girls will have two separate tracts for prayer and halacha class. The Beis Yaakov Chasidi will close, only the original Beis Yaakov will exist.
But in the original Beis Yaakov, the girls have always prayed together, Sephardic liturgy. And there were not separate halacha classes for Sephardim and Ashkenazim, all the girls learned the entire spectrum of halacha. Ironically, the Supreme Court is making its own “separation” that the original Beis Yaakov and Chassidic Beis Yaakov never did.
But more importantly – where does the Israeli Supreme Court base its right to alter nuances in school curriculum? How can Judge Levi decide that there will be separate tracts for Ashkenazi and Sephardic students in prayer and Jewish Law – a separation that this community itself does not recognize?
It was stipulated in the court order that the parents could sign up their girls in any schools they wished, other than the Beis Yaakov Chasidi of Emanuel. The parents of the Beis Yaakov Chasidi then signed up their girls in the Beis Malka School in Bnei Brak.
On Sunday morning May 30, the first day that the girls from Emanuel attended this school in Bnei Brak, a group of reporters came to Emanuel and followed the morning bus, and filmed the girls entering this school. That day the school informed the parents that the Ministry of Education declared that they are not allowed to accept the girls from Emanuel.
OVERCROWDING IN RELIGIOUS ISRAELI SCHOOLS
Some classes in the cities have as much as forty five, even forty eight girls. A teacher in Jerusalem told me, “It can be nearly the end of the year before I get to know all my students.” This puts enormous pressure on students to compete for a limited amount of space.
High school is in some ways more important that seminary education in Israel, unlike the American model of college being of foremost importance. Living in smaller towns lessens the pressures of competing for places in high school without lowering standards of education, as the religious world is brimming with a surplus of teachers who themselves must move to smaller areas to secure employment.
SOME MORE INFORMATION ABOUT EMANUEL
Emanuel was a fairly easy target – deep in the Shomron, an unlikely place for many to visit and check the facts for themselves. Not a well-off community, with few resources for self-advocacy. Small enough that you are easily exposed to the great variety that exists within the Charedi world, and any place in which variety is supported fosters a healthy, moderate environment.
If you like languages, you could improve your Hebrew, Arabic, French, Russian, Yiddish, English, Judeo-Yemenite, Moroccan, Persian, Bucharian, Tunisian.
For religious choices you have the spiritual Sephardim saying their blessings with fervor, proud of their glorious past under Islam and their good relations with local Arabs. Or the Lubavitchers, steadfast in their mission to spread Chassidut and make sure you learned some Torah today. The modern orthodox balancing it all and their doorway into the professions; the proper and learned Lithuanians happy to answer any question on Jewish law – by answering with another question. The meditative Breslover Chassidim crying “father” in Yiddish in the middle of the night as they pray on the hillside; the Chassidim who migrated from Tiberias a generation ago – of a heritage part Russian and Old Yishuv Edut HaMizrach and their talent for teaching; the two Yemenite sects, one which favors kabala and mysticism, the other which cleaves to Maimonedean rationalism. You have the more open Sephardim and Ashkenazim – and blended – who flourish in the original Beis Yaakov or modern orthodox schools, the stricter Sephardim whose grandmothers wore purda with veiled faces. “Strict” and “lenient” are not ethnically delineated.
Emanuel is a place where you are easily exposed to the great variety that exists within the Charedi world. If you like languages, you could improve your Hebrew, Arabic, French, Russian, Yiddish, English, Judeo-Yemenite, Moroccan, Persian, Bucharian, Tunisian.
If we had hyphenated last names going back about three or four generations, revealing the many who have blended heritage, this whole Sephardic – Ashkenazi “divide” would fade away.
Small towns like Emanuel are actually a very good place to live and get to know different types of people.
THE BAIS YAAKOV SCHOOL SYSTEM
The Beis Yaakov system was founded in 1917 in Cracow, Poland by Sarah Shneirer, and is “selective” according to level of religious observance and expectations of refined personal behavior.
The first set of grades on the report card of the Beis Yaakov School in Emanuel concern personal character traits: prayer, attitude towards studies, attitude towards peers, respect of elders, respect of property, neatness and cleanliness, task completion, homework preparation, behavior during class, modesty. In each category is a line for teacher’s comments. This is a good chance for personal growth for a child.
Rebbetzen Henya Liebermensh, late wife of Rav Nosson Liebermensh, told me, “my father used to cover the bottom half of my report card and look at the comments on my character traits. If they were good, he would praise me and hand back the report card with a smile.”
We need schools that help the whole child and family grow. Beis Yaakov has high standards. You do not have to attend it if you do not want to.
The vice principal of the Beis Yaakov Emanuel is a Sephardic woman. There are of course excellent Sephardic women teachers in the Beis Yaakov, and there are excellent Sephardic men teachers in the Chassidic boys’ school that my son’s attend.
ATTORNEY MORDECHAI BASS’ EVALUATION OF THE BEIS YAAKOV EMANUEL CASE:
A brief synopsis, original report in Hebrew is attached.
Page 1
Invitation to investigate
“On January 28 2008 I was invited to evaluate the complaints of ethnic discrimination made against the Beis Yaakov Emanuel administration. I have thoroughly reviewed relevant material … and have met with administrators from the ministry of education, the chinuch atzmai (independent religious schools’ network, which Beis Yaakov is under), and I visited the two schools in question.”
Page 2
Evaluation of ethnicity
“The percentage of Ashkenazi families in the original school is 23%, and in the new (Chasidi) school, 73%.”
(Footnote at bottom: “Such figures are not totally accurate – firstly, the schools do not note the ethnicity of their students in the registration – and this is a good thing! Secondly – this figure was…partially based on the tenor of the family name, which can also be inaccurate.” )
Were any families refused admission to the Beis Yaakov Chasidi, Emanuel?
“All parents wanting to sign up their daughters to the new school, and were ready to accept upon themselves the school’s conditions, were accepted (lit. “not refused”). Since there was no rejection (of any applicants), where is the discrimination?”
Page 5
Description of Emanuel Community
“A varied population dwells in Emanuel – Chassidic, Lithuanian, Sephardic, some families have been Haredi for generations, some for one generation, some are newly religious for a few years. In larger towns, this variety is expressed in a variety of schools. Until this year there was only one (Haredi) school in the town.” ( My note )
Attorney Bass notes the tensions between the stricter, sheltered factions and the more open, lenient factions.
Page 6
Attorney Bass notes the founding of the Sephardic girls’ school in Emanuel, Beit Rachel and Leah, under the Mayan-Shas network, which at the time had only a small first grade. (My note )
He notes the various options that the parents explored – having different tracts in the same building, or opening a new school. In the end, a new school was founded.
Page 7
“The two schools are administrated separately, with two different principals.”
Physical separation between the two schools – fact or fiction?
“…photographers claimed that the cloth that was placed on the (pre-existing) fence prevented the girls from seeing each other. This is not true. Only part of the fence was covered. The yard surrounds the school from four directions, and the girls (from both schools) are able to see and play with each other. The (media) portrayal of two completely separate sections of the school yard…is not true.”
Page 8
“Were the students in the two schools divided according to ethnicity?
“Were the students in the two schools divided according to ethnicity? The plaintiffs claim yes (the top of this page exhibits the plaintiffs’ claim)….The original school has 107 Sephardic girls and 32 Ashkenazim. The percentage of Ashkenazim is thus 23%. The new (Chasidi) school has 58 Ashkenazi girls and 21 Sephardim. The percentage of Sephardim is thus 27%….I repeat that…anyone interested in registering their daughters in the new school and ready to accept the school’s way of life was not refused.
“I spoke to the plaintiffs and asked for one instance of parents who asked to register their daughter and was refused and they had no such case.
He goes on to discuss the legal technicalities of opening a new school, licensure and so forth.
Page 11
Again -physical separation between the two schools – fact or fiction?
Attorney Bass reiterates that accusations of physical barriers between the two schools were exaggerated and that indeed there was free access between the girls of both schools. He notes that the new school occupies (the third floor) rooms which were unused. (The third floor had housed the high school, and was vacated in September 2004 when the high school got its own building.)
(I laughed when I read paragraphs 4 and 5, which address the plaintiffs’ accusation that the times of school starting and recess were at different times. Attorney Bass found this to be untrue. Of course both schools begin at the same time – 8am. Of course the recesses are at the same time. Would it make sense to have recess at different times, with one school trying to study while the other half is making noise outside?)
Paragraph 6 on page 11 addresses the plaintiffs’ accusation that the girls in each school were forbidden contact with each other. () Attorney Bass notes that there was no such ordinance issued by the school.
Page 12
More on the culture of Emanuel – Sheltering children
Here, Attorney Bass sensitively notes the great variety that exists in the Haredi world, despite its outward uniform appearance in dress. He suggests that non-Haredim attempt to understand the mentality of sheltering from the outside world, and that the more strict and sheltered Haredim would understandably be wary of having their children have close contact with more lenient and worldly Haredim.
Page 13, paragraph 22
Was there ethnic discrimination in the Beis Yaakov Emanuel?
“The division was not ethnic, it was religious. I am convinced that there is no ethnic discrimination.”
Conclusion
“When ethnic discrimination actually occurs, we must combat it with all our might. I express my sorrow about complaints like these – thrown in the air – that increase hatred among Israel, and are totally baseless.” ()
Signed
Attorney Mordechai Bass
_________________________________-
Synopsis of letter from Rachel Guveri, head of education, town council of Emanuel, to Emanuel’s mayor Ezra Gerashi
December 2009
As my duty as head of education, I check on the schools and kindergartens. I have visited the Beis Yaakov School five times this year.
Concerning allegations of discrimination that have arisen:
1. There is no separation wall in the school.
2. There is one uniform dress code for the whole school.
3. There are no separate recesses.
4. The yard is shared; the girls (from both schools) play together.
The students are happy with the situation.
1. Registration – each family was given a choice at the beginning of the year which school to choose from – Chasidi or general.
2. Prayer – each girl prays according to her home custom. In the first grade they receive a prayer book from the Sephard tradition.
3. Girls learn the gamut of Jewish law, both Sephardi and Ashkenazi traditions, as a seamless whole.
4. Both schools learn the same curriculum.
5. The rules for both are the same.
6. There are teachers who teach in both schools.
I see that the girls are happy in these schools. (Additionally) the new Mayan-Shas (Beit Rachel and Leah) school has a nice atmosphere and the girls are happy.
There are schools in Emanuel for all to choose from for their individual needs.
The directive to unite the two Beis Yaakovs has opposition from parents in both schools.
I recommend allowing (the Beis Yaakovs) to remain two separate tracts – Chasidi and general, this is the first preference.
Rachel Guveri
Aksile says:
June 15, 2010 at 10:18 am
RG, may I ask for the sources from where you take your information?
Thanks
RG says:
June 15, 2010 at 1:17 pm
I live in Emanuel
To Lawman-30% of the girls attending Beis Yaakov Chasidi in Emanuel are Sephardic. This Chasidi school was founded as a stricter alternative to the original Beis Yaakov.
It is not a Sephardi/Ashkenazi divide, it is phiosophical.
Aksile – I have original court documents, including the Mordechai Bass report. See my blogspot:
http://beisyaakovemanuel.blogspot.com/
So far only the Bass report is posted.
Write to me via my blogspot page and I will email you the documents that I have. They are not all yet posted on the webpage.
The person who listens to gossip is even worse than the person who tells it, because no harm could be done by gossip if no one listened to it. It has been said that lashon ha-ra (disparaging speech) kills three: the person who speaks it, the person who hears it, and the person about whom it is told.
2. Rambam (3): Lashon ha'Ra kills three people - the speaker, the one who accepts it, and the subject. The one who accepts it is (punished) more than the one who told it.
3. Rambam (6): One may not live in the vicinity of Ba'alei Lashon ha'Ra, and all the more so one may not sit with them and hear their words.
4. Sha'arei Teshuvah (3:213): It says "Leshon Sheker Yisna Dakav." A humble person of broken spirit hates Sheker, and he does not agree to hear it. He desires the honor of people, and not their shame. "Lo Sisa Shema Shav" forbids believing in the heart that the tale is true and to despise the subject.
5. Sha'arei Teshuvah (225): We are commanded from the Torah not to accept Lashon ha'Ra.
Ariel,
If you think it is Lashon Hora, why do you post it here? You know what they say about Lashon Hara? It kills at least three people, the one who spoke it, the ones who heard it, and the one it is spoken about...
When you repeat the LH, it has the effect like dominoes, spreading more and more, killing all who hear it, and all who speak it...
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/speech.htmQuoteThe person who listens to gossip is even worse than the person who tells it, because no harm could be done by gossip if no one listened to it. It has been said that lashon ha-ra (disparaging speech) kills three: the person who speaks it, the person who hears it, and the person about whom it is told.
http://www.dafyomi.co.il/makos/halachah/ma-hl-023.htmQuote2. Rambam (3): Lashon ha'Ra kills three people - the speaker, the one who accepts it, and the subject. The one who accepts it is (punished) more than the one who told it.
3. Rambam (6): One may not live in the vicinity of Ba'alei Lashon ha'Ra, and all the more so one may not sit with them and hear their words.
4. Sha'arei Teshuvah (3:213): It says "Leshon Sheker Yisna Dakav." A humble person of broken spirit hates Sheker, and he does not agree to hear it. He desires the honor of people, and not their shame. "Lo Sisa Shema Shav" forbids believing in the heart that the tale is true and to despise the subject.
5. Sha'arei Teshuvah (225): We are commanded from the Torah not to accept Lashon ha'Ra.
PS: Ariel, I don't blame you for posting it... But to say it is Lashon Hara in the post makes me not want to read it...
What I posted is not Lashon hora. The original article is Lashon hora, created to kill Ashkenazi/Sepharic relationships. The issue with the area's problem is between how two schools of Judaism pray, it is not because Jews of European descent have racist problems with Jews of middle eastern descent. The article does not make this clear and leads people to think there is a racist problem where there is none. My intent is to correct the evil which has been spoken and clear the good names of these Jews who simply want their own interpretation of Judaism to be protected.Ariel,
If you think it is Lashon Hora, why do you post it here? You know what they say about Lashon Hara? It kills at least three people, the one who spoke it, the ones who heard it, and the one it is spoken about...
When you repeat the LH, it has the effect like dominoes, spreading more and more, killing all who hear it, and all who speak it...
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/speech.htmQuoteThe person who listens to gossip is even worse than the person who tells it, because no harm could be done by gossip if no one listened to it. It has been said that lashon ha-ra (disparaging speech) kills three: the person who speaks it, the person who hears it, and the person about whom it is told.
http://www.dafyomi.co.il/makos/halachah/ma-hl-023.htmQuote2. Rambam (3): Lashon ha'Ra kills three people - the speaker, the one who accepts it, and the subject. The one who accepts it is (punished) more than the one who told it.
3. Rambam (6): One may not live in the vicinity of Ba'alei Lashon ha'Ra, and all the more so one may not sit with them and hear their words.
4. Sha'arei Teshuvah (3:213): It says "Leshon Sheker Yisna Dakav." A humble person of broken spirit hates Sheker, and he does not agree to hear it. He desires the honor of people, and not their shame. "Lo Sisa Shema Shav" forbids believing in the heart that the tale is true and to despise the subject.
5. Sha'arei Teshuvah (225): We are commanded from the Torah not to accept Lashon ha'Ra.
PS: Ariel, I don't blame you for posting it... But to say it is Lashon Hara in the post makes me not want to read it...
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138121
More.
Myriads Expected at Hareidi Protest
by Hillel Fendel
Tens of thousands of policemen are on hand in Jerusalem to counter what could be twice that amount of hareidi-religious protestors in what has been called the “mother of all protests.” The hareidi-religious are expected to accompany 68 parents from Emanuel to jail in a mass protest against irreligious coercion.
The protest is called for 1:30 PM at Yirmiyahu St. near the large hareidi neighborhoods, and is scheduled to last about four It is feared that it will begin even earlier in other areas of the city, however. Lending the protest an air of urgency, leading Torah giants such as Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyahshiv, age 100, and Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky of Bnei Brak have said they will take part. In addition, the rabbis have taken the unusual step of calling on all yeshiva and kollel students to take a break from their Torah studies and join the protest.
The issue is the Supreme Court ruling that forces Hassidic parents in the Shomron town of Emanuel to send their daughters to a school that they believe does not meet their religious standards. The Court, however, adjudicated the issue based on ethnic lines, accepting the position of the plaintiffs who claimed that the current school discriminates against Sephardic families.
The defendants say in their defense that among their number, roughly a quarter are Sephardic.
The 68 parents who refuse to send their daughters to the designated school are to be taken to jail today – an unprecedented move in itself. They have said that they will gladly go to jail rather than compromise their religious principles. In accordance with a ruling by their rabbi, the Slonimer Rebbe, they will wear festive Sabbath clothes and will be escorted to jail in song and dance by the myriads of protestors.
In court, the parents cried out the Shma Yisrael prayer, and sang “Zion, will you not care for your prisoners?” and “Make your plans, but they will not come to fruition, for ‘Emanu-e-l’ [G-d is with us].’”
It appears that a statement by the one religious Supreme Court justice – Edmond Levy, the only judge to rule against the removal of government stipends to Kollel students this week – is what set the religious world on fire. Regarding the declared refusal of the parents to follow the Court’s ruling and to follow their rabbis instead, Levy said, “It cannot be that rabbis’ rulings will take precedence over the Supreme Court.” Today’s mass protest is essentially saying, “Oh yes they can!”
Based on recent hareidi protests, violence is expected, though rabbis and other leaders have called on the public to show restraint. The police, for their part, have said that they will act to quickly quell any disturbances - an ominous threat in the eyes of the protestors.
The hareidi public has felt itself under the gun recently regarding the desecration of graves in Jaffa, the removal of bones in Ashkelon, the removal of the Kollel stipends, unwanted autopsies in Jerusalem, anti-hareidi statements made by public leaders, and more.
The original court suit was initiated by a veteran resident of the city, who had various claims against the relatively newly arrived Slonim Hassidic community – including what he felt was ethnic discrimination, despite the presence of Sephardic families in the Hassidic school. Notably, teaders of the hareidi-Sephardic Shas party have come out against the Court ruling, though they did not call on their supporters to join the protest.
Please define the following terms:
Chilloni
Yamassnik
Yassamnik!
If only these Haredi masses, tough, healthy, motivated, overfed, underemployed and spoilt, can be turned by the right Messianic-type leader towards Kahanism (ie true Torah), then it's the Endgame!!
(http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/24012010/2616192/2.jpg_wa.jpg)
Yamassnik
Yassamnik!
If only these Haredi masses, tough, healthy, motivated, overfed, underemployed and spoilt, can be turned by the right Messianic-type leader towards Kahanism (ie true Torah), then it's the Endgame!!
(http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/24012010/2616192/2.jpg_wa.jpg)
Sadly you forgot arrogant.
I don't see any lashon hara. There's no gossip going on.
It really depends on how you view the Haredim. It would seem even some Kahanist Jews fear the Haredim's influence and practices. To these Jews, speaking out against them would not be lashon hara.
What do some leading rabbis say about the Haredim in Israel?
http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/intrcomm.html
The Chafetz Chaim lists 31 mitzvot which may be violated when a person speaks or listens to Lashon Hara. This is a staggering number. Even though one does not generally violate them all in one shot, it is important to remember how carelessness can lead one into deeper trouble.
The central prohibition against unethical speech is Leviticus 19:16 - "Lo telech rachil b'ameicha" -- do not go about as a talebearer among your people. [FYI: Rashi's commentary on this verse is a "classic." He discusses the origins of the word rachil (a roving merchant), and a few divergent ideas about the Hebrew language.]
This verse in Leviticus applies equally to Rechilut and Lashon Hara (abbr.: L"H). The Chafetz Chaim gives their exact definitions later on, but for clarity we should mention them here:
* Lashon Hara - any derogatory or damaging (physically, financially, socially, or stress-inducing) communication.
* Rechilut - any communication that generates animosity between people.
Rechilut is often the repeating of Lashon Hara. For example, Reuven tells Shimon that Levi is ugly (Reuven spoke L"H), and then Shimon tells Levi what Reuven said about him. Shimon probably made Levi angry with Reuven, which is Rechilut.
Although Rechilut seems more obviously derived from the verse, both as a cognate (rachil/rechilut) and a concept (talebearer), the Torah is prohibiting any type of harmful or negative speech in this commandment.
There are several other commandments that directly address "gossip":
* Deut. 24:8 - "Take heed concerning the plague of leprosy" because it is a punishment of Lashon Hara.
* Deut. 24:9 - "Remember what the L-rd your G-d did unto Miriam by the way as you came forth out of Egypt." Specifically, she spoke against her brother Moses.
* Lev. 25:17 - "You shall not wrong one another" which the Talmud (Bava Metzia 58b) explains that this means saying anything that will insult or anger someone.
* Deut. 19:15 - "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity or for any sin" because, unlike in a court for monetary matters, the testimony of a solitary witness is not binding, so that his testimony damages the defendant's reputation without any beneficial result.
Several other commandments are more general, yet in certain circumstances apply when Lashon Hara or Rechilut is spoken:
* Ex. 23:1 - "You shall not utter a false report." Acceptance of a false report also follows from this.
* Lev. 19:14 - "Before the blind do not place a stumbling block." This applies to both the speaker and the listener since they are helping each other violate the commandments.
* Lev. 19:12 - "You shall not hate your brother in your heart," referring to contradictory behavior such as acting friendly but then speaking negatively about him behind his back.
* Lev. 19:18 - "You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the children of your people," such as speaking against someone in anger and for something that was done against the speaker.
* Lev. 19:17 - "You shall rebuke your neighbor and you shall not bear sin because of him." This verse contains two mitzvot: (1) stop someone from speaking Lashon Hara (among other interpretations), and (2) don't embarrass him in the process. (Note: rebuke is not a simple topic, especially because the one being scolded may not always listen. This is covered in some detail in the second section of the book, Hilchot Rechilut.)
* Lev. 19:18 - "Love your neighbor as yourself."
* Num. 17:5 - "You shall not act similar to Korach and his company" who sustained a dispute.
* Deut. 10:20 - "To Him [and (by implication) his wise ones] shall you cleave."
* Ex. 23:2 - "You shall not follow a multitude to do evil." The above two commandments refer to keeping good company, which includes those who will refrain from improper subjects in their discussions.
If you've been counting, you'll realize that there are still a good number of commandments that we haven't mentioned yet. To see the complete list, please see the Sefer Chafetz Chaim or its English adaptation, Guard Your Tongue, by Rabbi Z. Pliskin.
It is certainly good to be aware of the various mitzvot. However, the halachot discussed in the Chafetz Chaim are more specific, basically revolving around "Lo telech rachil b'ameicha," "B'tzedek tishpot et amiteicha," and "hocheiach tochiach et amiteicha." The Chafetz Chaim delineates different situations and conditions, and identifies when the speech is forbidden, permissible, and even desirable.
I don't see any lashon hara. There's no gossip going on.
It really depends on how you view the Haredim. It would seem even some Kahanist Jews fear the Haredim's influence and practices. To these Jews, speaking out against them would not be lashon hara.
What do some leading rabbis say about the Haredim in Israel?
By fear, I mean that they fear what Israel might be like if the Haredim ever became a ruling force.
I've listened to videos where Chaim spoke out against the Haredim during WW2 and currently in Israel. I'm pretty sure Rabbi Kahane was not a fan either, though please don't quote me at that.
Is it not possible that someone speaking against the Haredim could fulfill the 7 requirements of lashon hara? I may be wrong(likely), but it seems to depend on how you view the Haredim.
One's got to admire the Haredim... this time to prevent the High Court forcing them to put Sefardi & Ashkenazi girls together
Ariel,
If you think it is Lashon Hora, why do you post it here? You know what they say about Lashon Hara?
If I was a parent and I was told I had to send my kids to a school that taught the Reform and Reconstructionalist ideas of Judaism I would be militantly against it. -- How many of us would feel the same way?
What is reconstructionist Judaism?
and have a law unto themselves.
By fear, I mean that they fear what Israel might be like if the Haredim ever became a ruling force.
I've listened to videos where Chaim spoke out against the Haredim during WW2 and currently in Israel. I'm pretty sure Rabbi Kahane was not a fan either, though please don't quote me at that.
If only these Haredi masses, tough, healthy, motivated, overfed, underemployed and spoilt, can be turned by the right Messianic-type leader towards Kahanism (ie true Torah), then it's the Endgame!!
(http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/24012010/2616192/2.jpg_wa.jpg)
Sadly you forgot arrogant.
Why do you call them arrogant? What have they done which is arrogant. in your opinion?
Sometimes I am amazed at the amount of Lashon Hara which is expressed against Jews who are probrobly more observant than any of us here are... It really makes me wonder about this group..
I believe wonga66 said "The Haredim are irrelevant"... I don't know the context of that statement though..
If only these Haredi masses, tough, healthy, motivated, overfed, underemployed and spoilt, can be turned by the right Messianic-type leader towards Kahanism (ie true Torah), then it's the Endgame!!
(http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/24012010/2616192/2.jpg_wa.jpg)
Sadly you forgot arrogant.
Why do you call them arrogant? What have they done which is arrogant. in your opinion?
Sometimes I am amazed at the amount of Lashon Hara which is expressed against Jews who are probrobly more observant than any of us here are... It really makes me wonder about this group..
It's not arrogant to think that you are superior to the Sephardi? That you're so superior you can't tolerate some Sephardic girls sitting in the same classroom as your superior kids that are following the "only perfect" form of Judaism? Of course they are arrogant! Their arrogance is self-evident from this very issue.
Most Haredi youth would accept doing 1 year in the army, provided their rabbis agreed and their religious requirements were met.
When the Haredim are put in to all-Haredi units, they make better soldiers than the chillonim, and even better than the knitted kippots!
(http://hamaslovers.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/nahal-haredi11.jpg)
That's a quote from Rabbi Kahane. And it's still so true. Until the Haredim get physical, they are irrelevant! Unfortunately they persist in the Golus attitude of merely being Jewish poltroons.
I believe wonga66 said "The Haredim are irrelevant"... I don't know the context of that statement though..
For the life of me, I can't understand the problem religious Jews like the Haredi have with military service. If being a warrior was good enough for Joshua and King David, what's this whole business about the army being un-Jewish?
Also, if they're not Zionists, why do they bother to live in Israel?
living cheek and jowl with irreligious Israelis - male & female - for three years - irreligious meaning they don't believe in Torah or G-d, keep nothing, know nothing: not shabbos, not tefillah, not Tefillin, not kashrus, not brochos, no Torah study - practice pritzus and ridicule, will forceably cut off your peyos etc etc. I also wouldn't be too happy!
Those Haredim who entered frum in the 50s and 60s almost invariably not only came out un-Frum - they came out virulently ANTI-Frum! Even an idealistic chilloni Zionist, after 3 years in Zahal, will emerge a anti-Jewish and a non-Zionist and flee to New York & California. with an enduring bitter bitter hate for the Israeli system!
As for conscription of Haredi girls in to the army: the Chazon Ish told Ben Gurion in 1951 that the Haredi world would rather martyr itself to death rather than see its virginal daughters sexually ravished by rampant lothario lecherous profligate Israeli secularist Zahal officers!
israeli haredis are worms.
at least i am going to serve in the army and pay my taxes and not suck up money from the government.israeli haredis are worms.
You sound just like Goebbels.
at least i am going to serve in the army and pay my taxes and not suck up money from the government.israeli haredis are worms.
You sound just like Goebbels.
i think you need to talk more to wonga66.he got the right idea on ther leftists call kahane nazies.i am apllying the same to you.at least i am going to serve in the army and pay my taxes and not suck up money from the government.israeli haredis are worms.
You sound just like Goebbels.
So you're ok with "being like Goebbels?" That's ok to you?
This by Steven Plaut:
The headlines in Israel are filled with the story of the court ordering the mass arrest and imprisonment of a group of ultra-Orthodox “hareidi” parents for disobeying a court order that commands them to send their children to one school and not to another. The world media have discovered the story of intra-Jewish “racism” inside Israel. By and large they are just repeating the twist on the story that the Israeli secularist leftist media have attributed to it. And, as usually happens, the media brutally subordinated the story to their own biases and ideological agenda, in so doing getting just about everything possible wrong in the story.
i think you need to talk more to wonga66.he got the right idea on ther leftists call kahane nazies.i am apllying the same to you.at least i am going to serve in the army and pay my taxes and not suck up money from the government.israeli haredis are worms.
You sound just like Goebbels.
So you're ok with "being like Goebbels?" That's ok to you?
first.i don't need to explain myself to you.you are just accussng me and c4j on baseless accusations.second,i view you as a leftist so if you will call me goebbels it will be likeyou praised me.i think you need to talk more to wonga66.he got the right idea on ther leftists call kahane nazies.i am apllying the same to you.at least i am going to serve in the army and pay my taxes and not suck up money from the government.israeli haredis are worms.
You sound just like Goebbels.
So you're ok with "being like Goebbels?" That's ok to you?
If you had intellect to the level of a 10 year old, you would comprehend that you admitted to being like Goebels and are ok with it. That's number 1. Your response was not to modify your statement or change what you said, you only defended it with a further "criticism" of haredim that you think somehow defends yourself.
2. Unlike leftists who throw around nazi, I am drawing a valid comparison. Just like Goebels made inaccurate generalized statements to characterize Jews as evil and the enemy and lying and greedy etc etc, you are making inaccurate generalized statements to characterize haredim. So I am in no way making a generalized claim about you or a baseless accusation. I am putting two and two together and showing what a nazi you are revealing yourself to be with your own words.
Don't give me this childish garbage.
That's what a message board is for.first.i don't need to explain myself to you.i think you need to talk more to wonga66.he got the right idea on ther leftists call kahane nazies.i am apllying the same to you.at least i am going to serve in the army and pay my taxes and not suck up money from the government.israeli haredis are worms.
You sound just like Goebbels.
So you're ok with "being like Goebbels?" That's ok to you?
If you had intellect to the level of a 10 year old, you would comprehend that you admitted to being like Goebels and are ok with it. That's number 1. Your response was not to modify your statement or change what you said, you only defended it with a further "criticism" of haredim that you think somehow defends yourself.
2. Unlike leftists who throw around nazi, I am drawing a valid comparison. Just like Goebels made inaccurate generalized statements to characterize Jews as evil and the enemy and lying and greedy etc etc, you are making inaccurate generalized statements to characterize haredim. So I am in no way making a generalized claim about you or a baseless accusation. I am putting two and two together and showing what a nazi you are revealing yourself to be with your own words.
Don't give me this childish garbage.
you are just accussng me and c4jc4j has nothing to do with this, I never brought up your boyfriend.
on baseless accusations.Nothing I said was baseless. You condemned yourself with your own words. You speak about haredim like Goebbels and Hitler yemach shemam vzichram spoke about the Jews. That's a fact, not baseless and not an accusation, it's stating a fact. You have no defense for the fact but you try to rationalize it and justify it. You are an animal.
second,i view you as a leftist so if you will call me goebbels it will be likeyou praised me.
1) the message board is for discussion between NORMAL people.That's what a message board is for.first.i don't need to explain myself to you.i think you need to talk more to wonga66.he got the right idea on ther leftists call kahane nazies.i am apllying the same to you.at least i am going to serve in the army and pay my taxes and not suck up money from the government.israeli haredis are worms.
You sound just like Goebbels.
So you're ok with "being like Goebbels?" That's ok to you?
If you had intellect to the level of a 10 year old, you would comprehend that you admitted to being like Goebels and are ok with it. That's number 1. Your response was not to modify your statement or change what you said, you only defended it with a further "criticism" of haredim that you think somehow defends yourself.
2. Unlike leftists who throw around nazi, I am drawing a valid comparison. Just like Goebels made inaccurate generalized statements to characterize Jews as evil and the enemy and lying and greedy etc etc, you are making inaccurate generalized statements to characterize haredim. So I am in no way making a generalized claim about you or a baseless accusation. I am putting two and two together and showing what a nazi you are revealing yourself to be with your own words.
Don't give me this childish garbage.Quoteyou are just accussng me and c4jc4j has nothing to do with this, I never brought up your boyfriend.Quoteon baseless accusations.Nothing I said was baseless. You condemned yourself with your own words. You speak about haredim like Goebbels and Hitler yemach shemam vzichram spoke about the Jews. That's a fact, not baseless and not an accusation, it's stating a fact. You have no defense for the fact but you try to rationalize it and justify it. You are an animal.Quotesecond,i view you as a leftist so if you will call me goebbels it will be likeyou praised me.
Any Jew who considers it a "praise" to be called Goebbels has serious psychiatric problems and does not belong on this forum. If that includes wonga, then so be it. If he thinks it's a praise to be called Hitler or Goebbels (when making comments actually similar to Hitler and Goebels and reflecting hatred of Jews) he also needs his head examined. Although I doubt highly that he was saying that. You simply cannot understand what he was saying, and you twist his stupid arguments to support your nazism (even though even he would not agree with your insanity!).
You have called the Haredi "worms"...1) the message board is for discussion between NORMAL people.That's what a message board is for.first.i don't need to explain myself to you.i think you need to talk more to wonga66.he got the right idea on ther leftists call kahane nazies.i am apllying the same to you.at least i am going to serve in the army and pay my taxes and not suck up money from the government.israeli haredis are worms.
You sound just like Goebbels.
So you're ok with "being like Goebbels?" That's ok to you?
If you had intellect to the level of a 10 year old, you would comprehend that you admitted to being like Goebels and are ok with it. That's number 1. Your response was not to modify your statement or change what you said, you only defended it with a further "criticism" of haredim that you think somehow defends yourself.
2. Unlike leftists who throw around nazi, I am drawing a valid comparison. Just like Goebels made inaccurate generalized statements to characterize Jews as evil and the enemy and lying and greedy etc etc, you are making inaccurate generalized statements to characterize haredim. So I am in no way making a generalized claim about you or a baseless accusation. I am putting two and two together and showing what a nazi you are revealing yourself to be with your own words.
Don't give me this childish garbage.Quoteyou are just accussng me and c4jc4j has nothing to do with this, I never brought up your boyfriend.Quoteon baseless accusations.Nothing I said was baseless. You condemned yourself with your own words. You speak about haredim like Goebbels and Hitler yemach shemam vzichram spoke about the Jews. That's a fact, not baseless and not an accusation, it's stating a fact. You have no defense for the fact but you try to rationalize it and justify it. You are an animal.Quotesecond,i view you as a leftist so if you will call me goebbels it will be likeyou praised me.
Any Jew who considers it a "praise" to be called Goebbels has serious psychiatric problems and does not belong on this forum. If that includes wonga, then so be it. If he thinks it's a praise to be called Hitler or Goebbels (when making comments actually similar to Hitler and Goebels and reflecting hatred of Jews) he also needs his head examined. Although I doubt highly that he was saying that. You simply cannot understand what he was saying, and you twist his stupid arguments to support your nazism (even though even he would not agree with your insanity!).
2) this is an example of person you picked out and labeled him as as nazi on i don't know what basis.
3) so please give us qutoes of goeblles and hitler and compare them with my quotes.
4) i reszt my case. you just twist my arguments in order to satisfy your twisted leftist mind.
In Mein Kampf, Hitler had already referred to Jews as a “worm in a rotting body, a pestilence worse than the black death of the past, a carrier of bacilli of the worst kind, the eternal schizomycete of humanity, the spider that slowly sucks out a people’s life-blood through its pores, a band of rats that fight each other to the death, the parasite within the bodies of other peoples, the very epitome of a parasite, a scrounger that proliferates more and more, like a harmful bacillus, the eternal leach, the vampire of all peoples.”If Hilter [YS'V] had only said "Haredi" in place of "Jews", would you stand by his side?
If that's the case, you don't belong here.
1) the message board is for discussion between NORMAL people.
2) this is an example of person you picked out and labeled him as as nazi on i don't know what basis.
4) i reszt my case. you just twist my arguments in order to satisfy your twisted leftist mind.Nazis are far-leftists. You defend nazis who have white skin color. There is no reason for you to call anyone else leftwing.
3) so please give us qutoes of goeblles and hitler and compare them with my quotes.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Nazi_Anti-Semitic_Propaganda_by_David_Shankbone.jpg/300px-Nazi_Anti-Semitic_Propaganda_by_David_Shankbone.jpg)
you still didn't quoted me.i said ISRAELI HAREDIM are parasites.and nobody in in israel denies that.
you still didn't quoted me.
is this a joke? who wants to be like YOU.definetly not ME.you still didn't quoted me.
. You must really want to be like me ben. You fear me, yet you want to be me. Sounds about right.
is this a joke? who wants to be like YOU.definetly not ME.you still didn't quoted me.
. You must really want to be like me ben. You fear me, yet you want to be me. Sounds about right.
i love my CURRENT world view thank you.is this a joke? who wants to be like YOU.definetly not ME.you still didn't quoted me.
. You must really want to be like me ben. You fear me, yet you want to be me. Sounds about right.
Sometimes it seems like you ben are the joke here... I occasionally want to give you the benefit of the doubt so I think you are just joking but then I realize that you are being serious and then I worry about you... I agree with KWRBT that you really need to do some self-evaluation and find out what is so wrong about your world view... I can't help you...
i love my CURRENT world view thank you.is this a joke? who wants to be like YOU.definetly not ME.you still didn't quoted me.
. You must really want to be like me ben. You fear me, yet you want to be me. Sounds about right.
Sometimes it seems like you ben are the joke here... I occasionally want to give you the benefit of the doubt so I think you are just joking but then I realize that you are being serious and then I worry about you... I agree with KWRBT that you really need to do some self-evaluation and find out what is so wrong about your world view... I can't help you...
i love my CURRENT world view thank you.is this a joke? who wants to be like YOU.definetly not ME.you still didn't quoted me.
. You must really want to be like me ben. You fear me, yet you want to be me. Sounds about right.
Sometimes it seems like you ben are the joke here... I occasionally want to give you the benefit of the doubt so I think you are just joking but then I realize that you are being serious and then I worry about you... I agree with KWRBT that you really need to do some self-evaluation and find out what is so wrong about your world view... I can't help you...
i am not hating myself i hate my enemies and people with double standards like muman for example.i love my CURRENT world view thank you.is this a joke? who wants to be like YOU.definetly not ME.you still didn't quoted me.
. You must really want to be like me ben. You fear me, yet you want to be me. Sounds about right.
Sometimes it seems like you ben are the joke here... I occasionally want to give you the benefit of the doubt so I think you are just joking but then I realize that you are being serious and then I worry about you... I agree with KWRBT that you really need to do some self-evaluation and find out what is so wrong about your world view... I can't help you...
You love it because you hate yourself. It's not healthy, ben.
i am not hating myself i hate my enemies and people with double standards like muman for example.i love my CURRENT world view thank you.is this a joke? who wants to be like YOU.definetly not ME.you still didn't quoted me.
. You must really want to be like me ben. You fear me, yet you want to be me. Sounds about right.
Sometimes it seems like you ben are the joke here... I occasionally want to give you the benefit of the doubt so I think you are just joking but then I realize that you are being serious and then I worry about you... I agree with KWRBT that you really need to do some self-evaluation and find out what is so wrong about your world view... I can't help you...
You love it because you hate yourself. It's not healthy, ben.
you said that i am nazi and a self hating jew.oh and you love the negroes too much.i am not hating myself i hate my enemies and people with double standards like muman for example.i love my CURRENT world view thank you.is this a joke? who wants to be like YOU.definetly not ME.you still didn't quoted me.
. You must really want to be like me ben. You fear me, yet you want to be me. Sounds about right.
Sometimes it seems like you ben are the joke here... I occasionally want to give you the benefit of the doubt so I think you are just joking but then I realize that you are being serious and then I worry about you... I agree with KWRBT that you really need to do some self-evaluation and find out what is so wrong about your world view... I can't help you...
You love it because you hate yourself. It's not healthy, ben.
Ben, you don't know what you hate. But you certainly do hate a lot...
I did nothing against you except say that you are not a friend, and you don't act like a Jew, and I will not change that till you show me otherwise.
you still didn't quoted me.i said ISRAELI HAREDIM are parasites.and nobody in in israel denies that.
you still didn't quoted me.i said ISRAELI HAREDIM are parasites.and nobody in in israel denies that.
i am a kahanist and i could not agree with you more.
i am not even sure which ones are a bigger threat; the israeli arabs or the haredim.
the haredim are a second fifth column in the heart of israel. they contribute nothing but interethnic hatred and parasitical behavior. many of them are also violent hooligans.
I don't know who this Ben M is but I agree that Haredi are parasites.
The Israeli Orthodox community and the Secular community serves in the military FOR them,For them ? Or for everyone? I didn't know that the army only existed because of protecting haredim. Otherwise we wouldn't need an army? Gee, that's quite the hiddush you thought up! You can't possibly be serious.
pays taxes FOR them, and work FOR them.
Yet they deem Secular Jews as "not real Jews"
and make people cover up in very hot 95 degree weather when they enter their "neighborhoods" in Israel.
Yet some Haredi are allowed to dodge draft!
I say that everybody in Israel has to serve in the military and work and pay taxes.
Secular Jews are the reason why Israel exists.
Sounds like you've never heard Rabbi Kahane ZT"L or Chaim speak the praises of the great Jewish leader, the Shomer Shabbath ORTHODOX commander of the Irgun, David Raziel ZT"L HY"D, one of the greatest men in modern Jewish history. If he wasn't religious, I don't know who was.
Sounds like you've never heard Rabbi Kahane ZT"L or Chaim speak the praises of the great Jewish leader, the Shomer Shabbath ORTHODOX commander of the Irgun, David Raziel ZT"L HY"D, one of the greatest men in modern Jewish history. If he wasn't religious, I don't know who was.
What the heck are you talking about?
I have nothing but the utmost respect for the dati leumi-religious zionist.
but the haredim are not religious zionists, they are worthless parasites.
I said before that they are violent and it's true that violence can be a good thing but only if its directed against evil people but these haredim burn garbage dumpsters and throw rocks at soldiers and police who protect them. They dont do these things against arabs only against zionists, which makes them no better than the arabs.
I myself consider myself a religous zionist but i am far, very far from haredi.Well good for you, want a medal?
I am sick and tired of seeing religous zionists in israel kissing up to haredim. haredim are a selfish bunch who care nothing for eretz yisrael. they only care about how much money they can suck out of the government for their yeshivas.
and look what's going on today in emanuel?
R kahane was all about complete unity between sephardim and ashkenazim but these haredim hate sephardim and treat them like drek.
this is very unlike the kahanists and the religous ziionists who dont make such distinctions. yemenites, morrocans, russians, iraqis, marry each other freely.
inter-ethnic marriages are the norm rather than the exception among every other sector of the israeli population except among the damned haredim.
I need only to mention the case of Roi Klein (Ashkenazi) who was a religious settler from eli and was killed in the second lebanon war when he threw himself on a grenade to save his unit. His friend Eliraz Peretz (Morrocan) , also from Eli became a stepfather to Klein's children and treated them like his own until he himself was killed in Gaza not long ago.
Do we ever see such ahavat chinam among the parasite haredim?
what do they contribute to the country except for sinat hinam? they hate everyone who is not like them. Hassidim hate litvaks, litvaks hate hasidim. different hassidic groups hate each other.
Sounds like you've never heard Rabbi Kahane ZT"L or Chaim speak the praises of the great Jewish leader, the Shomer Shabbath ORTHODOX commander of the Irgun, David Raziel ZT"L HY"D, one of the greatest men in modern Jewish history. If he wasn't religious, I don't know who was.
What the heck are you talking about?
Wasn't my comment directed at "Jewish American Patriot" ? In any case...Quote
I have nothing but the utmost respect for the dati leumi-religious zionist.
In what way was Raziel this? He was simply an Orthodox Jew who fought. He was not leader of Mizrahi party or mizrahi faction of zionism. He was a revisionist zionist who was an Orthodox Jew. You are trying to reimage him.
He was not Haredi in any way either. If I am not mistaken, he learned in Mercaz harav,which was Rav Kook's yeshiva.Quotebut the haredim are not religious zionists, they are worthless parasites.
And you are a nazi.
I laugh when I hear this because the word 'nazi' has been so misused and abused since the invention the word that it's virtually meaningless.QuoteI said before that they are violent and it's true that violence can be a good thing but only if its directed against evil people but these haredim burn garbage dumpsters and throw rocks at soldiers and police who protect them. They dont do these things against arabs only against zionists, which makes them no better than the arabs.
Why do you label all haredim with this nonsense? The Toldos Aharon sect and some lunatics there represent all haredim? The groups burning things in Meah shearim are NOT mainstream. That you extend their insanity to include all "haredim" demonstrates your blind hatred. You are afraid of the black-hatted man, so you villify him and make him the scapegoat. And in the path of Hitler, you call this "type" of Jew you don't like, a parasite.
Its not just toldos aharon, its alot more than that. the extreme haredi factions are growing by leaps and bounds; they have many kids and all these kids are raised on a diet of hating the state and all the zionists including and especially the religious zionists whom they call "mizruchuniks" (sic).QuoteI myself consider myself a religous zionist but i am far, very far from haredi.Well good for you, want a medal?QuoteI am sick and tired of seeing religous zionists in israel kissing up to haredim. haredim are a selfish bunch who care nothing for eretz yisrael. they only care about how much money they can suck out of the government for their yeshivas.
Yeah? Well I am sick and tired of people like you making generalizations about thousands of people which are not true just because you oppose their hashkafa and their political ideology and the actions of a few of them in one particular location.
As much as I disagree with the haredi "yeshivish" worldview, the scions of the haredi yeshivoth, such as Mir, Hevron, Brisk, etc, are not involved with the daily violent protest and rioting stupidity and that is simply plain fact. This huge immanuel protest was an exception, and that was notably nonviolent, and it was about the issue of the courts. The ones burning garbage cans are bored losers.
yes, i agree the lithuanians usually shy away from violence, although if you follow what went on in ponovezh yeshiva, you will see that that's not true. they even use violence against each other (there was even a pipe bomb planted at the door of one of the rival roshei yehsiva). Plus there was never a condemnation by the litvak yeshiva world against all the violence in Jerusalem and Jaffa and Ashkeklon. So this is a tacit support for mindless haredi violence.Quoteand look what's going on today in emanuel?
R kahane was all about complete unity between sephardim and ashkenazim but these haredim hate sephardim and treat them like drek.
Yeah, there's a problem in their society, and Dati Leumi has its own problems in its own society. Who do you think you are labelling thousands of Jews as parasites and untermenshen?
why are you putting words in my mouth?
what is your obession with Nazis and Nazi terminology?Quotethis is very unlike the kahanists and the religous ziionists who dont make such distinctions. yemenites, morrocans, russians, iraqis, marry each other freely.
Yes, this is a great strength of the national religious sector.Quoteinter-ethnic marriages are the norm rather than the exception among every other sector of the israeli population except among the damned haredim.
Yes so I bet you want to throw those "damned haredim" into the oven. That'll fix their ways, you creep.
Emanuel Haredim being released from prison, giving the V sign, just like Hamasniks.
http://www.bhol.co.il/news_read.asp?id=17928&cat_id=2
I think you have issues with Haredim. Having such hatred in your heart is a very bad sign. Instead of hating them you should be able to find good in what they do. I have seen good and bad in everyone. You should look for the good in these Jews, regardless of whether you respect their beliefs.
Emanuel Haredim being released from prison, giving the V sign, just like Hamasniks.
http://www.bhol.co.il/news_read.asp?id=17928&cat_id=2
Talking about Nazi terminology.
They are standing up for the principle that laws come from Hashem and not the supreme court. I agree with them that they should not be required to send their children to schools with a lower standard of religious observation...
They are standing up for the principle that laws come from Hashem and not the supreme court. I agree with them that they should not be required to send their children to schools with a lower standard of religious observation...
It was about racism against sephardim. There was a wall seperating the ashkenazi from the sephardi girls. Why is that something to be admired. No true Kahanist can support this kind of old style racism. We in Israel are trying to break down the walls between groups as much as possible. I dont even think there should be any distinction between sephardim and ashkenazim. There should be one chief rabbi (who should be a zionist not a Elyahsiv puppet) of both the State and the army.
There should be one rite called Minhag Eretz Yisrael and everyone who lives in EY should follow that. The rest is history, it is important, it is fascinating but it belongs in a museum.
The only Haredi I personally know are the disgusting Brooklyn anti Zionist Haredis. My cousin returned from a trip to Israel and told me that all the soldiers that she met had bad things to say about Haredim because they treat the soldiers like dirt just because they may be tattooed, modern, and secular and because the Haredim don't serve in the military.
Plus wearing a black hat and peyotes is not Judaism. Nowhere in the Torah does it say to wear a black hat and peyotes.
Of course there may be some good Haredi Jews but most Haredis are unemployed. I don't understand why Israel makes exceptions for them. The Arabs should leave, the Leftists should perform a national service and pledge loyalty to Israel or leave, and the ultra orthodox Jews should perform a nation service and pledge loyalty to Israel or leave. I don't understand why a Secular society like Israel bows down to the ultra religious
Dear Rabbi,
I've always been fascinated by the dress of Hassidic Jews and wondered why it is that the men grow long sidelocks?
signed,
Curious in College Park
Dear Curious,
Let us approach this question in two parts, briefly.
First of all, the Torah commandment is not only for Hassidim, but intended for every Jewish male. The Torah teaches:
"Do not cut off the hair on the sides of your head..."
Vayikra 19:27.
A Jewish male must leave sideburns (peyot) down to the joints of the jaw that are opposite the ear, approximately a third of the way down the ear.
Secondly, the custom to wear _long_ peyot is mentioned in the Talmudic commentary of Tosefot (compiled in Touques, France, approx. 1300 C.E. :
"One has to be exceedingly careful not to remove his Peyot even with a scissors because they are like a razor; therefore the accepted custom has been to leave long peyot on children when they have their first haircut."
(Nazir 41b)
Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch in his commentary on the Torah suggests that peyot form a symbolic separation between the front part of the brain and the rear part. The front part is the intellectual, the rear part is the more physical, the more sensual. The wearer of peyot is thus making a statement that he is aware of both facets of his mind, and intends to keep them to their appointed tasks.
The previous answer first appeared on soc.culture.jewish, before the ASK THE RABBI list began. When it did, Howard at Mt. Holyoke wrote to us asking:
If the Torah commands that men (I assume there's another passage somewhere that makes this commandment refer only to males) "not cut off their hair on the sides of [their] heads," then why are the sideburns cut off "approximately a third of the way down the ear?" Either we are commanded to not cut the hair, or we are commanded to let it grow to a certain length.
Where did the length interpretation come from?
Good question!
The length interpretation is based on the word "peyot", which means "corners", referring to the corners of the head. See Rashi on the verse in Vayikra 19:27; Rashi also gives a lengthy description (sorry!) of the locations of the "corners", and why they are called "corners".
The reader in Mt. Holyoke is correct in his assumption that only MEN are obligated to wear peyot. This is further explained in the Gemara in Kiddushin 35b.
but the haredim are not religious zionists, they are worthless parasites.
And you are a nazi.
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I laugh when I hear this because the word 'nazi' has been so misused and abused since the invention the word that it's virtually meaningless.
Plus wearing a black hat and peyotes is not Judaism. Nowhere in the Torah does it say to wear a black hat and peyotes.
Of course there may be some good Haredi Jews but most Haredis are unemployed.Most? Are you sure about that? Can you quote me statistics and numbers? Like I said I'm all for criticizing views but let's stick to facts, not groundless assertions because you don't like someone emotionally.
I don't understand why Israel makes exceptions for them.What exceptions? They are not treated any different than the Arabs, leftists or any other group you don't or do like. They have their own politicians and interest groups that serve their interests and try to influence the govt. Obviously you begrudge their political achievements. Just as the establishment is not going to make arabs leave, they are not going to force haredim to abandon their lifestyle. What will bring about change is necessity - as always. The real problem is the arabs. And they really do need to leave. Other things can be sorted out and changed over time. Your vision is a very stalinistic intrusion on private life if you think someone can come along and "force" the haredim to change who they are or else kill them chas veshalom or make them leave etc.
T he Arabs should leave, the Leftists should perform a national service and pledge loyalty to Israel or leave, and the ultra orthodox Jews should perform a nation service and pledge loyalty to Israel or leave. I don't understand why a Secular society like Israel bows down to the ultra religious
I said before that they are violent and it's true that violence can be a good thing but only if its directed against evil people but these haredim burn garbage dumpsters and throw rocks at soldiers and police who protect them. They dont do these things against arabs only against zionists, which makes them no better than the arabs.
Why do you label all haredim with this nonsense? The Toldos Aharon sect and some lunatics there represent all haredim? The groups burning things in Meah shearim are NOT mainstream. That you extend their insanity to include all "haredim" demonstrates your blind hatred. You are afraid of the black-hatted man, so you villify him and make him the scapegoat. And in the path of Hitler, you call this "type" of Jew you don't like, a parasite.
Its not just toldos aharon, its alot more than that. the extreme haredi factions are growing by leaps and bounds; they have many kids and all these kids are raised on a diet of hating the state and all the zionists including and especially the religious zionists whom they call "mizruchuniks" (sic).
I myself consider myself a religous zionist but i am far, very far from haredi.Well good for you, want a medal?
I am sick and tired of seeing religous zionists in israel kissing up to haredim. haredim are a selfish bunch who care nothing for eretz yisrael. they only care about how much money they can suck out of the government for their yeshivas.
yes, i agree the lithuanians usually shy away from violence, although if you follow what went on in ponovezh yeshiva, you will see that that's not true. they even use violence against each other (there was even a pipe bomb planted at the door of one of the rival roshei yehsiva).
Plus there was never a condemnation by the litvak yeshiva world against all the violence in Jerusalem and Jaffa and Ashkeklon. So this is a tacit support for mindless haredi violence.
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and look what's going on today in emanuel?
R kahane was all about complete unity between sephardim and ashkenazim but these haredim hate sephardim and treat them like drek.
Yeah, there's a problem in their society, and Dati Leumi has its own problems in its own society. Who do you think you are labelling thousands of Jews as parasites and untermenshen?
why are you putting words in my mouth?
what is your obession with Nazis and Nazi terminology?
this is very unlike the kahanists and the religous ziionists who dont make such distinctions. yemenites, morrocans, russians, iraqis, marry each other freely.
Yes, this is a great strength of the national religious sector.
inter-ethnic marriages are the norm rather than the exception among every other sector of the israeli population except among the damned haredim.
Yes so I bet you want to throw those "damned haredim" into the oven. That'll fix their ways, you creep.
again with your Nazi terminology. You have issues, my friend.