JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Yaakov Mendel on July 12, 2010, 12:58:25 PM
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My 6-year-old daughter only has a very vague idea of who Binyamin Netanyahu is, still she must find the nickname Pipi Kakayoyo funny since she mentioned it several times at one of her friends' house where she was invited... I don't usually talk to her about Israeli politics so she must have overheard the nickname and its explanation during a conversation that I had with my wife. When I came to pick up my daughter at her friend's house, the mother smiled at me and said : "Yaakov, you shouldn't talk about politics with your daughter, don't you think she's too young ?". Of course, I didn't understand at first what she was driving at, so she told me about the "Pipi Kakayoyo" quotes and that my daughter had even explained who the nickname referred to... Now the last part gets even more awkward. The mother goes on to tell me with a smile of complicity : "But you know, I agree with you, Netanyahu and his far-right government are a disaster, these people are ruining all hopes for peace with the Palestinians in the region...". It is then my turn to smile, but this time ironically, and I tell her : "I don't make fun of Netanyahu because I think he is too right-wing but because I think he is a phony right-wing politician who actually leads leftist policies". The woman has such entrenched left-wing views that she stares at me in disbelief for a moment, probably thinking I am joking, but when she realizes I am serious, she immediately fetches my daughter and tells me with a final perfunctory smile : "Well, anyway, your daughter is ready to go. It was such a lovely afternoon".
It's funny she didn't say my daughter was welcome to come back when we left ! :laugh:
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Aw wow...great story...And of all people she felt YOU were a right wing extremist...lol
But I'll hand it to you the civility with which you approached everything.
I think I have better luck with the left wingers unless they are die hard Sean Penn type extremists.
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And of all people she felt YOU were a right wing extremist...lol
In this forum some people bash me for being a leftist (which is false, of course) but you have no idea how many times I was called a FASCIST by true leftists at dinners or parties when the conversation began to deal with politics !
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Great story.
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And of all people she felt YOU were a right wing extremist...lol
In this forum some people bash me for being a leftist (which is false, of course) but you have no idea how many times I was called a FASCIST by true leftists at dinners or parties when the conversation began to deal with politics !
How are you talking to these people to convince them of your point of you? Probably need to listen to past askJTF shows as well as a nice long speech by Meir Kahane from his press club meeting on CSPAN.
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yaakov mendel,
I have had a very similar experience.
Seems that I am now ostracized and persona non grata in my own community, as well as by my immediate family members, for the "crime" of stating my support for the State of Israel in front of wealthy leftist Jews who hail from NY City. It's amazing isn't it?....Someone like me...as radical and liberal as they get...being denounced as a "fascist" and "oppressor" by other Jews simply for saying that "The Jewish People have a right to exist as a sovereign nation on ALL of the Land of Israel"!
Rabbi Kahane was RIGHT!
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yaakov mendel,
I have had a very similar experience.
Seems that I am now ostracized and persona non grata in my own community, as well as by my immediate family members, for the "crime" of stating my support for the State of Israel in front of wealthy leftist Jews who hail from NY City. It's amazing isn't it?....Someone like me...as radical and liberal as they get...being denounced as a "fascist" and "oppressor" by other Jews simply for saying that "The Jewish People have a right to exist as a sovereign nation on ALL of the Land of Israel"!
Rabbi Kahane was RIGHT!
I understand very well what you mean, I am faced with the same problem... It is painful, and you make a lot of ennemies in the process, but the urge to fight for the truth and justice for the Jewish people give a lot of motivation...
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And of all people she felt YOU were a right wing extremist...lol
In this forum some people bash me for being a leftist (which is false, of course) but you have no idea how many times I was called a FASCIST by true leftists at dinners or parties when the conversation began to deal with politics !
How are you talking to these people to convince them of your point of you? Probably need to listen to past askJTF shows as well as a nice long speech by Meir Kahane from his press club meeting on CSPAN.
Since that is an important question and I do not have time to elaborate right now, I'll get back to you tomorrow.
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I'll tell you, there was this conservative "rabbi" who was a bleeding heart liberal that I used to talk to all the time. When it came down to the elections, I couldn't believe my ears that he was supporting Obama and that calling him by his middle name was "racist". Someone like that, there is no chance to change...
My mom ended up sending an email to him and everyone on her list of how Obama's speeches resembled Hitler's...that basically ended our relationship with him.
On the other hand, there are others who are staunch supporters of Israel, but still believe in a 2 state solution. Those people, I gave a history lesson...now they only believe in a one state solution or are turning more towards that thinking.
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Ignorant non-Israel supporting Leftist American Jews = "Americans of Mosaic Descent".
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On the other hand, there are others who are staunch supporters of Israel, but still believe in a 2 state solution. Those people, I gave a history lesson...now they only believe in a one state solution or are turning more towards that thinking. <<
The love affair with so called Palestinians is sicker than the love affair with American Blacks. At least with American Blacks there was a time when the communities had the same problem of discrimination. The 2 communities have travelled such different paths since then that it is lucdicrous to speak of connections.
The Palestinians are a people who have no purpose other than killing Jews. What other national purpose do they have? None. There is no reason for Jews to feel anything but a need to vigorously defend ourselves against their murderous intent.
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I am so proud of my mother who has been a liberal Jew for so many years, and a democrat... But she was very well aware of Obama, and she knew I was against him... She has disassociated with many of her fancy, smchancy friends in upstate NY because now she cannot bear to hear them sniveling about Obama.
Rabbi Kahane was so right when he ostracized those Jews who turned their backs on the Jewish vision and stabbed their brothers in the backs. I watched several videos where the protesters were blowing whistles as he spoke. I could not believe that they were Jews {and I hope that they weren't Jews for I know how their souls will suffer}....
I believe that most of my minyan was liberal, but from the last few conversations we have had they indicate that they are very displeased with Obama at this time.. I continue to bring it up over lunch on Shabbat and now they agree with me more than they did 2 years ago...
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I am so proud of my mother who has been a liberal Jew for so many years, and a democrat... But she was very well aware of Obama, and she knew I was against him... She has disassociated with many of her fancy, smchancy friends in upstate NY because now she cannot bear to hear them sniveling about Obama.
Rabbi Kahane was so right when he ostracized those Jews who turned their backs on the Jewish vision and stabbed their brothers in the backs. I watched several videos where the protesters were blowing whistles as he spoke. I could not believe that they were Jews {and I hope that they weren't Jews for I know how their souls will suffer}....
I believe that most of my minyan was liberal, but from the last few conversations we have had they indicate that they are very displeased with Obama at this time.. I continue to bring it up over lunch on Shabbat and now they agree with me more than they did 2 years ago...
I am reading "Never Again" right now. What Rav Kahane has to say about American Jews being silent about Jews during the Holocaust, but willing to even break the law for American blacks civil rights is as true now for Israel now as it was for European Jews back several decades ago.
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Binyamin Lewinsky, aka P*nis Netanyahoo, makes the standard nightcrawler that is used as bait look like a stoic and noble animal--and nightcrawlers have a better grasp of how to handle the Arab situation than that groveling blob of protoplasm as well.
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Ignorant non-Israel supporting Leftist American Jews = "Americans of Mosaic Descent".
Accurate. No one will be surprised that the Jewry of "humanist, modern, cultural" America will end up like the Jews of Germany.
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I'll tell you, there was this conservative "rabbi" who was a bleeding heart liberal that I used to talk to all the time. When it came down to the elections, I couldn't believe my ears that he was supporting Obama and that calling him by his middle name was "racist". Someone like that, there is no chance to change...
My mom ended up sending an email to him and everyone on her list of how Obama's speeches resembled Hitler's...that basically ended our relationship with him.
On the other hand, there are others who are staunch supporters of Israel, but still believe in a 2 state solution. Those people, I gave a history lesson...now they only believe in a one state solution or are turning more towards that thinking.
I agree with you.
I would say that if you do not want to waste your time and energy trying to convince people, it is important to distinguish between two kinds of people : those who are helpless and those who can change their mind.
There are those who will remain "anti-Israel", whatever you may explain to them. They have a preconceived judgement and no matter what good reasons and indisputable facts you provide them with, they will not listen. They are dishonest and biased. They will not hesitate to tell gross lies about the history of the Middle East. These people hate Israel anyway and there is no point in trying to persuade them. Among them, I have met two main categories (apart from Arabs) :
(i) Traditional antisemites from the far-right, either the neo-Nazi type or (sadly) the Christian type
(ii) The leftists who worship Palestinians as the poor and oppressed victims of a barbaric occupation of their land by zionists viewed as thieves backed by the imperialist America
Then, there are people who are basically ill-informed and ignorant, because of the constant pro-palestinian propaganda in the media circus, but who change their perception when they are told the true story, because they are fundamentally fair and decent persons. What they need is education. Most of them are secular, so it is a bad idea to use religious arguments if you want to change their mind. You do not have to anyway. A strong case for a Jewish state in Eretz Israel can be made without any religious justification. I can give a detailed list of the most effective arguments I use if JTFers are interested but then I'd rather start a new topic and I will need some time because it is quite a lot of work. Actually, I think it is an extremely important subject for the future of a movement such as JTF. If you want to become a mass movement, you need to know how to talk to people who are secular, moderate and even, to a certain extent, liberal, because, whether you like it or not, that is what most of Western societies (including the Israeli one) are. The most stupid thing you can do, in my opinion, is to scare people away with provocative and/or unrealistic statements, because most people, unfortunately, already have a negative bias against you since Kahane is so demonized.