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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mord on July 28, 2010, 11:48:13 AM
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Norms
Photo: Yoav Friedman
Making changes (illustration) Photo: Yoav Friedman
Red Mail
US rabbis: Accept homosexuals
Dozens of Orthodox leaders publish statement saying that although Judaism 'cannot give its blessing and imprimatur to Jewish religious same-sex commitment ceremonies and weddings,' community must still accept 'practicing' gay couples and their children into synagogues, schools
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 07.28.10, 18:08 / Israel Jewish Scene
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Dozens of Orthodox rabbis have signed a statement of principles saying that religious communities must accept those of its members who are "active homosexuals" and their biological or adopted children, and that they must not be encouraged to undergo "change therapies" or marry someone of the opposite sex.
The statement was formulated following a panel held by the "rashei yeshiva ramim" six months ago in New York. The panel included three homosexual graduates of the Yeshiva University, and was hosted by its spiritual supervisor, Rabbi Yosef Blau.
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The occasion opened the largely controversial subject to a public debate, which caused a stir in the modern-Orthodox faith with which the yeshiva is affiliated.
The statement was drafted over the months that followed the panel, with the help of mental health professionals and many debates. The final outcome was signed by the first vice president of the Rabbinical Council of America, Rabbi Shmuel Goldin, and Rabbi Haskel Lookstein, who heads Manhattan's Jeshurun community.
The statement of principle states that Jewish Halacha prohibits only homosexual acts, and not orientation or attraction to members of the same sex.
It adds that homosexuals are free to seek "change therapy" if they feel that they are worthless or dangerous, but that mental health professionals have found these treatments ineffective at best, and at times harmful.
The rabbis also state that homosexuals must be accepted as full-fledged members into synagogues and schools, and treated as any other member. However, as such, they must fulfill the obligations and mitzvahs of the community, including such norms or Jewish principles practiced by the community which are not officially dictated by formal Halacha.
The rabbis are also opposed to "outing" any gay community members who have not openly declared their sexual tendencies.
Though Judaism "cannot give its blessing and imprimatur to Jewish religious same-sex commitment ceremonies and weddings", the rabbis add, the community must still accept "practicing" homosexual couples, as well as their biological or adopted children.
The statement also says that forcing those with homosexual orientation to marry members of the opposite sex could lead to "great tragedy, unrequited love, shame, dishonesty and ruined lives", so instead these people "should be directed to contribute to Jewish and general society in other meaningful ways".
Founder and director of ITIM, Rabbi Seth Farber, also signed the statement. He told Ynet Wednesday that the panel had dealt with a "phenomenon that has challenged many Halacha thinkers, instead of turning a blind eye or pretending it doesn't exist".
"Modern-Orthodoxy doesn't sweep things under the rug but rather holds serious, basic, and transparent debates," he said.
"Of course we are not saying there is no halachic problem with homosexuality, but there is a lot of understanding and good will to help these people. The same empathy must be shown for them as for anyone struggling with a mitzvah, and whom no one thinks to banish from the community."
Another signatory, Rabbi Yuval Sherlo, stressed that the questions answered by the statement are not only related to homosexuality, but rather constitute the "current hot topic" of a large public asking to understand the Torah's regard for people struggling with a conflict between their sexual orientation and their commitment to Halacha.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3926452,00.html
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Well, there goes Modern Orthodox down the drain...
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What exactly is so wrong about the statement these rabbis made, and where is the novelty in their words ?
As far as I know, homosexuality is not cause for a cherem so of course homosexuals can enter the synagogue and participate in the prayers. As for their children- even more so because they shouldn't be held accountable for their father's sins.
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בס''ד
Shmuel Goldin yimach shmo is not a rabbi. He is a Peace Now traitor like the rest of the scum who signed this despicable proclamation. Haskell Lookstein is also a self-hating coward who supported the Oslo surrender agreement with the Muslim Nazi terrorists.
Accepting active homosexuals in the community is a complete betrayal of Torah Judaism.
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בס''ד
Shmuel Goldin yimach shmo is not a rabbi. He is a Peace Now traitor like the rest of the scum who signed this despicable proclamation. Haskell Lookstein is also a self-hating coward who supported the Oslo surrender agreement with the Muslim Nazi terrorists.
And what about Rabbi Yuval Sherlo ? He is pretty well known and respected in Israel as far as I can tell.
Accepting active homosexuals in the community is a complete betrayal of Torah Judaism.
What do you suggest to do with them if they enter a synagogue, Are you going to physically remove them from the building even if it is Shabat or Yom Kippur ? Is it not better to encourage them to repent ? As far as I know, even in prison, the lowest scums like unrepentant child abusers and murderers are admitted into the synagogue.
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בס''ד
You don't know that Yuval Sherlo is an extreme leftwing traitor who defends all of the black Muslim illegal aliens in Israel? Sherlo is the favorite "rabbi" of the traitor Bolshevik news media.
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בס''ד
You don't know that Yuval Sherlo is an extreme leftwing traitor who defends all of the black Muslim illegal aliens in Israel? Sherlo is the favorite "rabbi" of the traitor Bolshevik news media.
I didn't know but it's not a surprise. But regardless, isn't he a legitimate rabbi ? There are also many charedi rabbis who are very wrong on certain crucial issues like surrendering land, yet I don't think You call them "rabbis" except for (Naturei Karta).
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I don't see anything wrong with that statement. As Zelhar said, a child is not guilty for his father's sins. And the sinner himself was never forbidden to enter a synagogue unless a Cherem was issued. That's nothing new. (If the active sodomite publicly advocates his behaviour and denies the torah ban, he could theoretically be punished with a Cherem for heresy, just as someone who ddoes not only work on Shabbat, but also denies the mitzva altogether)
Chaim, cursing a live Jew is forbidden by Hallacha because it would imply wishing something bad on him. (Cursing the memory of someone who passed away could be a lesser sin, only lashon Harah, except if someone curses the memory of a dead parent)
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Well, there goes Modern Orthodox down the drain...
Yup... :'(
And again we should discourage immoral behavior..but to change someone's proclivity to homosexual feelings is up to the homosexual himself/herself. Can't force a man who likes other men to marry a woman.
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Leftist, Oslo-proponents or not, How would you reply to/refute their claims, Chaim? What approach would you advocate in the situations they speak of?
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Re: "Can't force a man who likes other men to marry a woman. "
Oh yes you can!
They should be beaten with a bullwhip until they agree to marry Elena Kagan.
That way, they're married to a woman, but married to a man! :::D
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Ravs are right that it's a problem if gays are encouraged to marry a woman they don't like. A woman is entitled to a husband who loves her. The same applies to lesbinas. Who of you, men or women, would marry a gay or a lesbian knowing he/she does it only to keep the mitzvah of marrying but not liking you, and craving for someone of the same sex?
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There are many gays or bi-sexuals who do so only because they were confused when they were younger, often preyed on when they were vulnerable... The hedonistic culture keeps sending the message that this lifestyle is acceptable when it is definitely not so. It is these gays and bi-sexuals who are attracted to the 'hip' gay culture who should be whipped into shape by being rebuked for their ways.
I still don't think that there has been any scientific evidence of a 'gay gene' and this is why I still think it is too early to give the pass to those who say 'they can't help it'....
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There are many gays or bi-sexuals who do so only because they were confused when they were younger, often preyed on when they were vulnerable... The hedonistic culture keeps sending the message that this lifestyle is acceptable when it is definitely not so. It is these gays and bi-sexuals who are attracted to the 'hip' gay culture who should be whipped into shape by being rebuked for their ways.
I still don't think that there has been any scientific evidence of a 'gay gene' and this is why I still think it is too early to give the pass to those who say 'they can't help it'....
It is proved that there is NOT a "gay gene" because twins who share DNA code, are not always both straight or both gays. But many gays show to be a little different from straights since early childhood.
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Re: "too early to give the pass to those who say 'they can't help it'.... "
It's their own fault for touching their receipts!
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Leftist, Oslo-proponents or not, How would you reply to/refute their claims, Chaim? What approach would you advocate in the situations they speak of?
בס''ד
We certainly accept homosexuals who are not active or who are sincerely trying to overcome their problem. We love them as our brothers and sisters, and we must try to help them to do tshuva (return to Torah Judaism).
But active homosexuals who are engaging in abominable behavior and who refuse to try to overcome their problem cannot be accepted in the community. They are a threat to the morals of the community. If they want to be accepted, they must try to overcome their problem.
This is not the same as Jews who eat non-kosher food or violate Shabbat, G-d forbid. While those are also serious sins, they are not on the same level because active homosexuals are not only harming themselves, they are also harming their partners. To cause someone else to sin is far worse than just sinning by oneself. Also, acceptance of homosexuality always brings about the destruction of nations and empires by the hand of G-d. It is a sin on a far more serious level.
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Ah I got it chaim. Thanks for the full explanation
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In this case it doesn't matter if there is a gene or not. Most homosexuals I don't believe choose to feel same-sex attraction, but there's no doubt that the ones who actively engage in sexual sin DO CHOOSE, of their own free will, to engage in forbidden acts. This should never be condoned and it doesn't make sense to allow the other children in the schools to be exposed to homosexual so-called families, when they need to be insulated from this if they are there to get a Jewish education, etc. If they see a sinful behavior not only tolerated but embraced as normal, then they will not learn that it's sinful.
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Let me guess, these freaks of nature listen to Eminem, Adam Lambert, and Elton John over the seder. >:(
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Thank you for the explanation, Chaim. I see the distinction you are making, and it helps show how these rabbis are agenda-driven.
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There are many gays or bi-sexuals who do so only because they were confused when they were younger, often preyed on when they were vulnerable... The hedonistic culture keeps sending the message that this lifestyle is acceptable when it is definitely not so. It is these gays and bi-sexuals who are attracted to the 'hip' gay culture who should be whipped into shape by being rebuked for their ways.
I still don't think that there has been any scientific evidence of a 'gay gene' and this is why I still think it is too early to give the pass to those who say 'they can't help it'....
Muman,
What you are describing is true in a tiny tiny minority of cases. The vast majority of people who are gay or lesbian were not abused as children. The vast majority of people who turn out to be gay, felt they were different from the time they were little children.
Chaim,
Isn't Sodom and Gomorrah about the sin of not being hospitable towards strangers. Also the men in Sodom were would be rapists, they do not represent most homosexual people. I admit in advance that you may be referring to something else of which I am not familiar
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Muman,
What you are describing is true in a tiny tiny minority of cases. The vast majority of people who are gay or lesbian were not abused as children. The vast majority of people who turn out to be gay, felt they were different from the time they were little children.
How do you know that nothing caused this, or that merely feeling "different" turned into something else due to various environmental or social factors?
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Muman,
What you are describing is true in a tiny tiny minority of cases. The vast majority of people who are gay or lesbian were not abused as children. The vast majority of people who turn out to be gay, felt they were different from the time they were little children.
How do you know that nothing caused this, or that merely feeling "different" turned into something else due to various environmental or social factors?
There have been many studies trying to demonstrate a possible rearing effect that can predispose someone to homo or conversely heterosexuality. No studies have ever shown any significant social environment factor that increases the likelihood of having a gay child. The only social environment factor that increases the likelihood of homosexual behavior is prison; this is referred to as 'situational homosexuality'
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Leftist, Oslo-proponents or not, How would you reply to/refute their claims, Chaim? What approach would you advocate in the situations they speak of?
בס''ד
We certainly accept homosexuals who are not active or who are sincerely trying to overcome their problem. We love them as our brothers and sisters, and we must try to help them to do tshuva (return to Torah Judaism).
But active homosexuals who are engaging in abominable behavior and who refuse to try to overcome their problem cannot be accepted in the community. They are a threat to the morals of the community. If they want to be accepted, they must try to overcome their problem.
This is not the same as Jews who eat non-kosher food or violate Shabbat, G-d forbid. While those are also serious sins, they are not on the same level because active homosexuals are not only harming themselves, they are also harming their partners. To cause someone else to sin is far worse than just sinning by oneself. Also, acceptance of homosexuality always brings about the destruction of nations and empires by the hand of G-d. It is a sin on a far more serious level.
The problem is that, as far as I know, there is no way to prevent a Jew from entering a Synagogue, except by puting a Cherem on him. And I haven't heard of any Cherem for that trasgression, even more, Cherem is quite rare today. So these Ravs are inventing nothing new. They are just allowing anyone in, as it was done for nearly the entire history of the Jewish People.
Some months ago, an Orthodox Rav was interviwed in a radio in Argentina, and was asked about that issue. He said that it has never happened in his commnunity, but if someday it happened that a known active homosexual Jew intended to enter his Synagogue, he has no hallachic way of sending him out.
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Feeling different from when you were a child doesn't make you gay. I was different from other kids in school all through my school years. I dated some women but did not engage in any sexual relations with women till I was 19 and even then it was not until I was 26 and married till I had sex regularly. There were many friends who I had who thought I was gay, and I am sure that if I was that way today they would try to tell me that I was and should act on it. I am so glad I grew up in the 70s and 80s when the gays were in the closet... I believe that just being different is no excuse for being gay.
When society says that a child who is different is gay then it is a wicked society...
In retrospect I believe that the divorce of my parents had a profound effect on how I perceived male/female relationships. Also, for the record, I have never had a bi-sexual or gay relationship and never had any desire for such a disgusting thing.
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OK, let's say that a boy is born naturally a little on the feminine side--he is artistic and shuns sports and hard physical activities or war-related toys. It's very likely that in this cruel world, such a child is going to be mercilessly picked on on the playground (and perhaps by his own parents), and quite likely will be called "gay" repeatedly. What do you think this does to his psyche? Do you not think that he will eventually begin to wonder if everybody is right?
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OK, let's say that a boy is born naturally a little on the feminine side--he is artistic and shuns sports and hard physical activities or war-related toys. It's very likely that in this cruel world, such a child is going to be mercilessly picked on on the playground (and perhaps by his own parents), and quite likely will be called "gay" repeatedly. What do you think this does to his psyche? Do you not think that he will eventually begin to wonder if everybody is right?
You know that I agree with what you said here... This is why the Gay Agenda and the medias perpetuating the 'hip gay lifestyle' is so detrimental to our children today. DBF I agree with you in principle here but my answer is that we should teach good morals and tune out the bad messages. It is true that in todays society with TV being shoved down childrens throats it is very difficult to protect children from these dangerous messages.
I have said before that I have not watched TV in over seven years now... It doesn't affect me or my family. All I can do is put out a positive message, one which encourages children to have heterosexual relationships in a monogamous fashion.
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Maybe Chaim understands the statement, or the intent behind it, as accepting homosexual behavior itself. Some of the signatories probably would like try to push towards this direction. But as a matter of principle I think what Raul said and I said is correct. There is no general cherem on sinners. I mean for individuals who know they engage in sinful behavior but they don't solicit other people to engage in it, and do not try to rewrite the the Torah so that it would approve of their sins. If that is the case I can't see why only homosexuals should be banished while for example philanderers, adulterers, or TV/radio reporters who work on shabbat shouldn't.
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Muman,
You misunderstood my point. When I wrote feeling "different," I meant "different" in a gender different sense. I think your example of divorce is a good one, but it has zero to do with homosexuality. Anyway, how I feel or think about this has been explained in many posts here in JTF. Not interested in getting involved in old disagreements or arguments.
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God bless the innocent children, but the parents are committing acts that are abomnible to the Lord.
Leviticus 18:22- Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable. Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. (Sodom and Gomorrah). And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the destable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. (I Am The Lord Your God.) Very Very clear what these words mean.
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G-d bless the innocent children, but the parents are committing acts that are abomnible to the Lord.
Leviticus 18:22- Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable. Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. (Sodom and Gomorrah). And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the destable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. (I Am The Lord Your G-d.) Very Very clear what these words mean.
Debbie,
The nations which were driven out did not include Sdom, so I don't think that is what Hashem is talking about in that pasuk... He is talking about the nations he 'WILL DRIVE OUT' which are the Caananite nations. The Caananites were also very debased people so I think you should study the context of the scripture before making such a statement..
The episode of Sdom occured in Abrahams lifetime... Moses lived 7 generations after Abraham...
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I agree, but we all should be aware that the scriptures still apply as they were written to today's world. God's word has not changed over the centuries, it is still a guide for man to follow and obey.
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I agree, but we all should be aware that the scriptures still apply as they were written to today's world. G-d's word has not changed over the centuries, it is still a guide for man to follow and obey.
It is true that Torah is the truth and it will stand throughout the Generations... But we must not selectively pick which sins are more sinful than others because Torah doesn't explicitly say which sin is worse. Based on the # of times in Torah it appears that Shabbat desecration is one of the worst sins..
Jews will never accept the NT... So try to stick with Tanakh and Talmud...
http://www.ou.org/chagim/shabbat/protect.htm
"We can now perhaps begin to understand the extreme gravity with which the Torah views the violation of the Shabbat, and how it could say, "Those who desecrate it shall die; anyone who does a Melacha on that day - that soul shall be cut off from the midst of its people." (Shemot: 31,14)
"Indeed, who could do such an act, knowing its full implications, unless he were already dead to all the spiritual aspirations of the Jewish people? It is the simple truth, which we have unfortunately witnessed so many times in recent years, that when the Shabbat goes out of the life of an individual, a family, or a community, their Jewishness is turned into a hollow mockery, to be discarded altogether by those who come after."
"In matters of such seriousness, even unthinking transgressions must be guarded against. It is a very poor excuse, when fundamental questions of this nature are at stake, to say, "I wasn't thinking." Shabbat presents special dangers in this respect, since it concerns actions which we are in the habit of doing all the other six days of the week. Jews at all times, conscious of all that is at stake, have been determined not to be dragged down by habit and forgetfulness. They have therefore sought methods of protection against unintentional desecration of the Shabbat."
Let me conclude this by saying that all SIN is horrible and will one day cease. We should rebuke all Jews who transgress the commandments. But I don't think every person who has same sex attraction is more evil than one who thinks it is OK to openly and boldly violate the 39 Melachot on Shabbat. Both lead to the same desecration of Hashem..