JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Abben on July 29, 2010, 10:56:32 PM
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Here it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrPz2x7ymB0
Please rate and comment thanks
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My conection is quite slow to watch videos. But I think it's a bad idea to oppose HIV research. AIDS is a major pandemia and there are many people infected. Why would someone oppose to find a cure for those persons? This is the kind of threads that damage the Jewish cause.
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Thanks, Abben! In addition to rating and commenting, I saved the video to my ZooTube favorites. I completely agree with Chaim's opinion from the video.
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My conection is quite slow to watch videos. But I think it's a bad idea to oppose HIV research. AIDS is a major pandemia and there are many people infected. Why would someone oppose to find a cure for those persons? This is the kind of threads that damage the Jewish cause.
A key question is how did most of the people with HIV/ Aids get infected in the first place?
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Many of them got infected because of engaging in risky behaviours. But this is not a Jewish problem. And many of those right wing Gentiles who say that infected people sought the risk and so deserve no help, would also say that Jews sought persecution by striving to keep "an anachronic faith and culture". I see no point in Jews siding with those right-wing Gentiles.
And I suppose that anyone here, if G-d forbid, had a relative infected, would want a cure no matter how he got it.
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Many of them got infected because of engaging in risky behaviours. But this is not a Jewish problem. And many of those right wing Gentiles who say that infected people sought the risk and so deserve no help, would also say that Jews sought persecution by striving to keep "an anachronic faith and culture". I see no point in Jews siding with those right-wing Gentiles.
And I suppose that anyone here, if G-d forbid, had a relative infected, would want a cure no matter how he got it.
For years, Chaim and JTF in general were criticized for spotlighting the dangers of leftist Blacks. Including by the Splinter Forums. As it turned out, it lead to the " election" of Barack Hussein Obama, with Israel now being in grave danger as a result.
I don't think it's in the best interest of Jews or anyone to look the other way when medical research for those who are engaging in AND condoning a lifestyle that G-d clearly detests, is way out of proportion.
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Well, I am seeing some validity in RaulMarrios opinion. Often here at JTF we will say that a person deserved to get Cancer because of his wickedness. If this is the case we consider Cancer to be a curse on wicked people. I take some offense at this because Cancer can strike righteous people too, as it recently took my father {pancreatic cancer} and my step-dad is now suffering with cancer. I want the medical community to find a cure for cancer even if it will save wicked people too. All the people with AIDS are not wicked, some may have contracted it when they were confused or vulnerable. If they make a honest Teshuva then why should they not be spared from this deadly disease.
Of course we rebuke the sinner who persists in his evil ways... But it is wrong to condemn all who suffer with this due to the wickedness of the majority. Remember that one of Hashems greatest qualities is that he is Long Suffering, in that he gives us a long time in order to repent. If justice was swift and decisive none of us would survive.
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Many of them got infected because of engaging in risky behaviours. But this is not a Jewish problem. And many of those right wing Gentiles who say that infected people sought the risk and so deserve no help, would also say that Jews sought persecution by striving to keep "an anachronic faith and culture". I see no point in Jews siding with those right-wing Gentiles.
And I suppose that anyone here, if G-d forbid, had a relative infected, would want a cure no matter how he got it.
This is one of the craziest things I've read. Sodomitic faggots like Ru Paul, Eminem, Liberace, and Elton John are no different than righteous Jews who were murdered for their faith in Hashem?
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Well, I am seeing some validity in RaulMarrios opinion. Often here at JTF we will say that a person deserved to get Cancer because of his wickedness. If this is the case we consider Cancer to be a curse on wicked people. I take some offense at this because Cancer can strike righteous people too, as it recently took my father {pancreatic cancer} and my step-dad is now suffering with cancer. I want the medical community to find a cure for cancer even if it will save wicked people too. All the people with AIDS are not wicked, some may have contracted it when they were confused or vulnerable. If they make a honest Teshuva then why should they not be spared from this deadly disease.
Of course we rebuke the sinner who persists in his evil ways... But it is wrong to condemn all who suffer with this due to the wickedness of the majority. Remember that one of Hashems greatest qualities is that he is Long Suffering, in that he gives us a long time in order to repent. If justice was swift and decisive none of us would survive.
Muman, your logic in essence is that just because a righteous person can be afflicted with cancer, then nobody deserves cancer ever. Really, have you thought this out? So if Adolf Hitler, Sheikh Nasrallah, Heinrich Himmler, or Lady Gaga (no she didn't mastermind a genocide, but she is masterminding the murder of millions of young souls through her pornographic filth) got cancer, they would all be "victims" who deserve a cure from it?
Every human being, good or evil, dies. So, because noble people will die and have died, does that mean that a convicted serial killer must not get the death penalty because good people also experience death?
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Well, I am seeing some validity in RaulMarrios opinion. Often here at JTF we will say that a person deserved to get Cancer because of his wickedness. If this is the case we consider Cancer to be a curse on wicked people. I take some offense at this because Cancer can strike righteous people too, as it recently took my father {pancreatic cancer} and my step-dad is now suffering with cancer. I want the medical community to find a cure for cancer even if it will save wicked people too. All the people with AIDS are not wicked, some may have contracted it when they were confused or vulnerable. If they make a honest Teshuva then why should they not be spared from this deadly disease.
Of course we rebuke the sinner who persists in his evil ways... But it is wrong to condemn all who suffer with this due to the wickedness of the majority. Remember that one of Hashems greatest qualities is that he is Long Suffering, in that he gives us a long time in order to repent. If justice was swift and decisive none of us would survive.
Muman, your logic in essence is that just because a righteous person can be afflicted with cancer, then nobody deserves cancer ever. Really, have you thought this out? So if Adolf Hitler, Sheikh Nasrallah, Heinrich Himmler, or Lady Gaga (no she didn't mastermind a genocide, but she is masterminding the murder of millions of young souls through her pornographic filth) got cancer, they would all be "victims" who deserve a cure from it?
Every human being, good or evil, dies. So, because noble people will die and have died, does that mean that a convicted serial killer must not get the death penalty because good people also experience death?
Cancer is not a curse on wicked people. I believe that is where you are missing the mark. Every illness will have a cure in Messianic days, there will be no sickness. It is also true in Messianic days there will be no evil...
The wicked will perish, this much is true... But who are you or I to say who deserves death from the Cancer? There is only one true judge in Heaven and we call his name Hashem, the L-rd, G-d of Israel. Do you know what is in a mans heart or mind? I don't. I can only judge what I see and it is not possible to see a human soul.
I pray for the recovery of all who are ill, that the sinner will see the error in his/her ways and truly repent. It is an important belief in Judaism to believe that even the most vile sin is forgivable by Hashem. I had heard that Christianity also had a lot of belief in repentance... But you are entitled to not forgive if you so desire...
For instance all during my childhood I had a great resentment and dislike for my step-father... There were times I dreamed of killing him... I regret all of those feelings now, and I hope that his cancer is cured...
PS: Regarding forgiveness... I do not forgive those who murdered my brother and I do not pray for enemies of my people. They will be taken from the world one way or another...
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Cancer is not a curse on wicked people. I believe that is where you are missing the mark. Every illness will have a cure in Messianic days, there will be no sickness. It is also true in Messianic days there will be no evil...
Are not Jews supposed to pray three times a day that the wicked will perish, from cancer or other means?
The wicked will perish, this much is true... But who are you or I to say who deserves death from the Cancer? There is only one true judge in Heaven and we call his name Hashem, the L-rd, G-d of Israel. Do you know what is in a mans heart or mind? I don't. I can only judge what I see and it is not possible to see a human soul.
Adolf Eichmann... Yasser Arafat... Sheikh Nasrallah... are you disputing that they deserve a death from cancer/AIDS (and Arafat got it)?
I pray for the recovery of all who are ill, that the sinner will see the error in his/her ways and truly repent. It is an important belief in Judaism to believe that even the most vile sin is forgivable by Hashem. I had heard that Christianity also had a lot of belief in repentance... But you are entitled to not forgive if you so desire...
Show me where the New Testament states that I am entitled to show forgiveness to a mass murderer or extremely immoral leader who shows no trace of repentance whatsoever.
For instance all during my childhood I had a great resentment and dislike for my step-father... There were times I dreamed of killing him... I regret all of those feelings now, and I hope that his cancer is cured...
What does your stepfather have to do with evil, degenerate people?
In any case I don't think Abben's point is that we need to give people we don't like AIDS, it's that the taxpayer should not have to shell out exorbitant funds to prevent a disease that is 99% caused by abominable behaviors.
PS: Regarding forgiveness... I do not forgive those who murdered my brother and I do not pray for enemies of my people. They will be taken from the world one way or another...
Why not through AIDS or cancer?
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Cancer is not a curse on wicked people. I believe that is where you are missing the mark. Every illness will have a cure in Messianic days, there will be no sickness. It is also true in Messianic days there will be no evil...
Are not Jews supposed to pray three times a day that the wicked will perish, from cancer or other means?
The wicked will perish, this much is true... But who are you or I to say who deserves death from the Cancer? There is only one true judge in Heaven and we call his name Hashem, the L-rd, G-d of Israel. Do you know what is in a mans heart or mind? I don't. I can only judge what I see and it is not possible to see a human soul.
Adolf Eichmann... Yasser Arafat... Sheikh Nasrallah... are you disputing that they deserve a death from cancer/AIDS (and Arafat got it)?
I pray for the recovery of all who are ill, that the sinner will see the error in his/her ways and truly repent. It is an important belief in Judaism to believe that even the most vile sin is forgivable by Hashem. I had heard that Christianity also had a lot of belief in repentance... But you are entitled to not forgive if you so desire...
Show me where the New Testament states that I am entitled to show forgiveness to a mass murderer or extremely immoral leader who shows no trace of repentance whatsoever.
For instance all during my childhood I had a great resentment and dislike for my step-father... There were times I dreamed of killing him... I regret all of those feelings now, and I hope that his cancer is cured...
What does your stepfather have to do with evil, degenerate people?
In any case I don't think Abben's point is that we need to give people we don't like AIDS, it's that the taxpayer should not have to shell out exorbitant funds to prevent a disease that is 99% caused by abominable behaviors.
PS: Regarding forgiveness... I do not forgive those who murdered my brother and I do not pray for enemies of my people. They will be taken from the world one way or another...
Why not through AIDS or cancer?
We have discussed the prayer in the Shemoni Esray several times. This is what the verse you mention says:
Let there be no hope for informers, and may all the heretics and all the wicked instantly perish; may all the enemies of Your people be speedily extirpated; and may You swiftly uproot, break, crush and subdue the reign of wickedness speedily in our days. Blessed are You L-rd, who crushes enemies and subdues the wicked.
The sages have told us that even though we make this request that we should pray that the sinner repent first so that he should not be destroyed..
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/948893/jewish/Why-Pray-for-the-Destruction-of-our-Enemies.htm
While you ask your question from what some may call a "modern moral standpoint," this sentiment is actually expressed in the Torah and is part of halachah (Torah law), as can be seen from the following episode in the Talmud:1
There were certain hooligans who resided in the neighborhood of Rabbi Meir, and they caused him much misery and anguish. Once, Rabbi Meir prayed for mercy regarding them, so that they would die.2 His wife Beruriah said to him, "What makes you think that such a prayer is permitted? Is it because the verse states3 'Let sinners [chataim] cease from the earth'? But is it written 'chotim'—sinners? Rather it is written 'chataim'—that which causes one to sin, namely the evil inclination. Furthermore, the end of the verse continues, '…and let the wicked be no more.' Since the sins will cease, there will be no more wicked men!
"Rather," she concluded, "pray for them that they should repent, and there will be no more wicked people."
He did pray for them, and they repented.
As we can see clearly from this episode, one should not pray for others to be punished, rather we should pray that they repent and do teshuvah. Which brings us to your question: How can we then do the exact opposite and pray for the wicked to be punished three times a day in an established prayer?4
Furthermore, if we look at the book of Psalms, only a few chapters after the verse that Beruriah cited to teach us that one should pray for the cessation of sins rather than the punishment of the wicked, we find King David doing the exact opposite!
We find King David praying that "when he [King David's enemy] is judged, let him emerge guilty, and let his prayer be accounted as a sin. May his days be few, and may someone else take his office of dignity. May his sons be orphans and his wife a widow. May his sons wander, and [people] should ask and search from their ruins. May a creditor search out all he has, and may strangers despoil his labor. May he have none who extends kindness, and may no one be gracious to his orphans…"5 Hardly a manifestation of the above cited dictum, based on King David's own words, to pray for the cessation of sins but not sinners!
Back to the prayer we are discussing, which is one of the nineteen blessings of the most central Jewish prayer, the Amidah. Originally, the Amidah contained only eighteen blessings. In the generation that witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans, the Jews were further plagued by members of various sects who took delight in informing on the rabbis to the Roman authorities, and in devising various ways of enticing the unsuspecting Jews to abandon the path of their forefathers. It is against this backdrop that the Talmud relates6:
Shimon the cotton merchant arranged the eighteen blessings of the Amidah before Raban Gamliel in Yavneh.7 Raban Gamliel said to the sages: "Is there anyone who knows how to formulate a blessing against the heretics and the wicked?" Shmuel Hakatan ("the small") arose and formulated it.
A little knowledge of the author of this prayer will help us to understand it better. As we know, every word in our prayer is exact, each word reflecting a deeper meaning and intent. It was for this reason that Raban Gamliel, who was the leader of the Jewish community at the time, sought a unique individual that was suited for the formulation of this unique blessing.
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As I said I surely pray for the unrepentant wicked to perish, but they should surely have a chance to repent. One of Hashems names is Arik HaPanim, the Long Suffering name. Hashem has patience with the wicked. Now you bring obvious enemies of the Jewish people such as Arafat {Yemach Shemo} and I am not talking about enemies of the Jewish people. All who suffer with Cancer are not enemies of the Children of Israel...
http://dafyomireview.com/article.php?docid=167
Chapter 1 - Who Is G-d Like You?
This attribute refers to the Holy One, Blessed Be He, as a tolerant King Who bears insult in a manner beyond human understanding. Without doubt, nothing is hidden from His view. In addition, there is not a moment that man is not nourished and sustained by virtue of the Divine power bestowed upon him.
Thus, no man ever sins against G-d without G-d, at that very moment, bestowing abundant vitality upon him, giving him the power to move his limbs. Yet even though a person uses this very vitality to transgress, G-d does not withhold it from him. Rather, the Holy One, Blessed Be He, suffers this insult and continues to enable his limbs to move. Even at the very moment that a person uses that power for transgression, sin, and infuriating deeds, the Holy One, Blessed Be He, bears them patiently.
One cannot say, G-d forbid, that G-d cannot withhold His benevolence from a person, for it is within His power to shrivel up a person's arms or legs instantly, just as He did with Yaravam (see Melachim/Kings I-13:4). Yet even though it is within G-d's power to withdraw vitality, and He could argue, "Since you sin against Me, sin with that which belongs to you, not with that which belongs to Me," He does not withhold His goodness from man. He bears the insult and continues to bestow His power and benevolence on man. Such an insult and the forbearance thereof defy description.
For this reason, the ministering angels refer to the Holy One, Blessed Be He, as the long-suffering King. This is the meaning of "Who is G-d like You'- "You, G-d, are kind and benevolent, possessing the power to exact revenge and claim what is rightfully Yours, and yet You are patient and tolerant until man repents."
This, then, is a virtue man should emulate namely, tolerance (savlanus). Even (up to the point that) when he is insulted to the degree mentioned above he should not withdraw his benevolence from those upon whom he bestows it.
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http://vbm-torah.org/archive/shoah/25shoah.htm
Rabbi Berkovits answers the first question by explaining that the creation of man entails granting him freedom, and that protecting that freedom requires that God conceal Himself so that His Presence should not be prominent in the world. God is long-suffering; He does not exact justice immediately, but rather waits for repentance and forgives sin. His mercy and His long-suffering patience allow man to continue to exist as "man" –as a free being. If God were to act solely on the basis of strict justice, human freedom would cease to exist.
I understand what you are saying but I don't think you are trying to understand what I am saying. Cancer takes many righteous people and there should be a cure found for it. Another Jewish concept is that Hashem formulates the cure before he creates the illness... This is one lesson we learn on Purim...
http://ohr.edu/holidays/purim/laws_and_customs/1509
But historians are capable of dealing only with tangible links. The Divine Author of history, however, reveals to His chosen people in Megillas Esther that there is a powerful connection between events separated by so much time - that the Divine Healer prepared the cure before the illness by removing Vashti in favor of Esther even before He sent the plague of Haman's genocidal decree to alarm His sinful people into repentance. The clue to this linkage is wine - the wine which brought a king to a drunken rage against a rebellious queen and the wine which another queen, concealing her Jewish identity, served both husband and enemy at the climactic banquet where she successfully pleaded for her people's salvation.
http://www.hevratpinto.org/pahad_eng/shemot/a_shemot_06.html
The Egyptians, however, completely failed in their efforts. The Holy One, blessed be He, saw the pain and misery of the Jewish people, and He sent a cure even before the illness. He prepared a savior for them, our teacher Moses, who grew up in the home of Pharaoh the king of Egypt, and who knew all the tricks of the Egyptians. As for Moses, he was completely devoted on the inside. In fact he truly wanted nothing other than the glory of G-d, and when he came to save the Children of Israel, no one could stand before him. This is because all obstacles crumble before a person who is completely sincere, giving way to salvation.
One more about Hashem sending the cure before the illness:
http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/holidays_and_fast_days/purim/the_road_map_to_joy.aspx?id=1981&language=english
Yet our Sages say that before G-d sends an illness, He has already prepared the cure - and such was the case in the Purim story.
And lastly I will once again bring the story of our Father Abraham praying that Hashem would not destroy Sdom just for the sake of 10 righteous people who live there... Of course there were not 10 righteous people and so Hashem destroyed it...
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Many of them got infected because of engaging in risky behaviours. But this is not a Jewish problem. And many of those right wing Gentiles who say that infected people sought the risk and so deserve no help, would also say that Jews sought persecution by striving to keep "an anachronic faith and culture". I see no point in Jews siding with those right-wing Gentiles.
And I suppose that anyone here, if G-d forbid, had a relative infected, would want a cure no matter how he got it.
This is one of the craziest things I've read. Sodomitic faggots like Ru Paul, Eminem, Liberace, and Elton John are no different than righteous Jews who were murdered for their faith in Hashem?
Read my text carefully please. I marked it red. I said that IN THE EYES OF SOME RIGHT-WING GENTILES, Jews sought persecution by keeping their faith. I didn't say it's true. I only said that it's the view of many nazi-Gentiles. My pint is that we should be carefull about whom we side with, because nazism and right-wing anti-Semitism has not fully disappeared, and many of those who oppose treatment for HIV could be also secretly anti-Semites.
Many right wing-Gentiles do, in fact, prefer any promiscous lifestyle (even if they condemn it) than Jews.
Some religiuos right-wings would say that ANY sin might be excusable except "being Jewish", and those racist nazi-like secular Aryan supremacists wouldn't even consider Jews as humans.
Now, anti-Semitism is moslty lead by leftists, but we must still remember that traditionally rightist anti-Semitism still exists.
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Muman, we never said cancer should not be cured. Of course it should. I definitely think cancer funding should take priority over HIV funding. Cancer takes pretty much equal numbers of good, evil, and neutral people (I would call them passively evil, but I digress). I think society has a vested interest in fighting cancer. That being said, your argument that because some good people deserve cancer, that no evil person ever deserves it either is simply not valid. Nowhere in the Bible or Jewish scriptures is that argument made and this whole debate is one big giant stretch.
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Muman, we never said cancer should not be cured. Of course it should. I definitely think cancer funding should take priority over HIV funding. Cancer takes pretty much equal numbers of good, evil, and neutral people (I would call them passively evil, but I digress). I think society has a vested interest in fighting cancer. That being said, your argument that because some good people deserve cancer, that no evil person ever deserves it either is simply not valid. Nowhere in the Bible or Jewish scriptures is that argument made and this whole debate is one big giant stretch.
I think you are stretching in order to justify your position. AIDS surely has a lot of unrighteous victims but in the same manner that Abraham prayed that Sdom not be destroyed, I will pray that those who are righteous and have contracted the deadly HIV virus will be spared...
Let me clarify one point... Money which could be used for Cancer research should not be spent on AIDS research. Cancer is a much bigger killer in the world and should be the health issue which is solved before AIDS...
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Read my text carefully please. I marked it red. I said that IN THE EYES OF SOME RIGHT-WING GENTILES, Jews sought persecution by keeping their faith. I didn't say it's true. I only said that it's the view of many nazi-Gentiles. My pint is that we should be carefull about whom we side with, because nazism and right-wing anti-Semitism has not fully disappeared, and many of those who oppose treatment for HIV could be also secretly anti-Semites.
Many right wing-Gentiles do, in fact, prefer any promiscous lifestyle (even if they condemn it) than Jews.
Some religiuos right-wings would say that ANY sin might be excusable except "being Jewish", and those racist nazi-like secular Aryan supremacists wouldn't even consider Jews as humans.
Now, anti-Semitism is moslty lead by leftists, but we must still remember that traditionally rightist anti-Semitism still exists.
Raul, you are getting crazier by the keystroke. So not only are anti-Semites all right-wing (hello? ever heard of the Communist Party? Ever hear of National SOCIALISTS? Ever hear of the ISM?), but people who do not want HIV to be publicly funded are closet anti-Semites?
Of course you add in the end that "most" anti-Semitism today is led by the left, but you're still trying to imply that the German Nazis and other historical anti-Semites were "rightists" (rotflmao). If a regime that is based on communism but with an added racial element; that nationalizes industries and institutes mandatory socialist programs for all workers is "rightist", I'd hate to see what you call a "leftist" regime.
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I think you are stretching in order to justify your position. AIDS surely has a lot of unrighteous victims but in the same manner that Abraham prayed that Sdom not be destroyed, I will pray that those who are righteous and have contracted the deadly HIV virus will be spared...
How am I stretching things? Did I say that AIDS patients should be executed? No, I just think that they should not look to the taxpayer for a quick fix from their disease.
If G-d chooses to heal them, so be it. Spending more tax money on them than heart disease, cancer, and Alzheimer's patients (all indiscriminate diseases that threaten everybody equally) combined because they are politically popular is not in the least justifiable.
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Dr Brenan. No matter if real nazis were perhps more commnunist than right-wings. neo-nazis of today are pro-right-wing. Now, if we ask some (not all) religious Gentile rightists about why some people were killed by AIDS, they would reply that it was because they did abominations. If we ask them where is their soul now, they would probably reply that they don't know. But if we ask them where is the soul of the Jewish martirs who were murdered for keeping their faith, they would reply that they are in Hell for keeping the wrong religion.
Now to your quote about the Jewish prayer:
Are not Jews supposed to pray three times a day that the wicked will perish, from cancer or other means?
I once asked a Rav about the meaning of that paryer and he replied that it was meant only to those who persecute the Jews and that "perishing" was not meant necessarily physically but only that their wicked plans come to nothing and their organizations be destroyed.
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I think you are stretching in order to justify your position. AIDS surely has a lot of unrighteous victims but in the same manner that Abraham prayed that Sdom not be destroyed, I will pray that those who are righteous and have contracted the deadly HIV virus will be spared...
How am I stretching things? Did I say that AIDS patients should be executed? No, I just think that they should not look to the taxpayer for a quick fix from their disease.
If G-d chooses to heal them, so be it. Spending more tax money on them than heart disease, cancer, and Alzheimer's patients (all indiscriminate diseases that threaten everybody equally) combined because they are politically popular is not in the least justifiable.
I have said that spending money which can be spent to save more people who suffer with cancer is the best thing. But once cancer is cured then maybe time and money should be spent to cure the other diseases too...
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I had heard that it was meant for those Israelites who reject the Oral Law, and so, when converting, I was worried because I thought, how could I pray against them if I have Karaite and other Israelite friends, and also Reform Jews might indirectly be included since they also refuse to abide by the Talmud (even if they accept it)... but the Rav explained me that it was meant to those who persecuted Rabbinical Jews and harmed them, not for everyone who simply does not abide by Ortodxy. I doubt it was meant for the followers of JC, because they were mostly Gentiles without doubt, and the prayer uses the word "min" for herectic. Only someone who is or might be Israelite can qualify as a "Min" if he commits heresy. A Gentile's heresy would be called shituf or plainly avodah zara (idol worship)
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I had heard that it was meant for those Israelites who reject the Oral Law, and so, when converting, I was worried because I thought, how could I pray against them if I have Karaite and other Israelite friends, and also Reform Jews might indirectly be included since they also refuse to abide by the Talmud (even if they accept it)... but the Rav explained me that it was meant to those who persecuted Rabbinical Jews and harmed them, not for everyone who simply does not abide by Ortodxy. I doubt it was meant for the followers of JC, because they were mostly Gentiles without doubt, and the prayer uses the word "min" for herectic. Only someone who is or might be Israelite can qualify as a "Min" if he commits heresy. A Gentile's heresy would be called shituf or plainly avodah zara (idol worship)
Actually the early church was targeting the Jews... Original Christianity was a Jewish sect...
http://www.aish.com/jl/h/48949371.html
The Jesus sect in Jerusalem remained small and was simply not spreading among the Jews. Indeed, it had become offensive in Jewish eyes and the Jesus followers were considered heretics(1) .
The attitude of the rabbis was that these people, Jews though they may be, are pursuing an ideology that is off the Jewish path and their skewed beliefs are going to pollute the Jewish people. This is a splinter sect that has no place in Judaism, therefore, we've got to drive them out.
One of those who took the driving-out part seriously was a Jew named Saul, originating from Tarsus (a city in Asia Minor, today's Turkey).
But, as he later wrote in his "epistles" or "letters," after participating in persecutions of the Jesus sect, Saul had a sudden change of heart. He wrote that Jesus appeared to him in a vision and dissuaded him from persecuting his followers.
Following this mystical encounter, Saul disappeared from the scene to re-emerge some 13 years later (circa 47-60 C.E.) as Paul, a missionary to the gentiles.
When he re-emerged on the world scene, Paul introduced some revolutionary ideas, which at first caused some furor among the more seasoned Jesus followers. During a dramatic meeting with the Jesus sect in Jerusalem, his viewpoint won: the new religion would separate from Judaism.
Paul went off on a series of missionizing journeys in which he was highly successful in attracting converts to the new religion -- Christianity.
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1) The negative attitude of the rabbis toward these splinter sects (including Judeo-Christianity) is reflected in a section of the Talmud that discusses the additional blessing added into the eighteen blessings of the Amidah- the silent prayers recited three times daily by observant Jews:
See also http://www.pardes.org.il/online_learning/weekly-talmud/2006-01-19.php
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The majority of people who have HIV/AIDS have procured it willingly [as opposed to smaller groups of rape victims, and children who are born from mothers who have gotten it]. Sex acts and inter-venous drug use are the #1 ways of procuring the HIV virus. It is wrong to prioritize this groups disease over diseases which manifest in people randomly who through no direct act suffer from disease, and in higher numbers. Why should society at large pay for the direct consequences of people who voluntarily engage in vice lifestyles? If people feel a passion in fighting the HIV virus, let them donate their own money willingly.
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The majority of people who have HIV/AIDS have procured it willingly [as opposed to smaller groups of rape victims, and children who are born from mothers who have gotten it]. Sex acts and inter-venous drug use are the #1 ways of procuring the HIV virus. It is wrong to prioritize this groups disease over diseases which manifest in people randomly who through no direct act suffer from disease, and in higher numbers. Why should society at large pay for the direct consequences of people who voluntarily engage in vice lifestyles? If people feel a passion in fighting the HIV virus, let them donate their own money willingly.
I agree with this... But once we solve Cancer and other killer diseases we should also provide relief for all who suffer.
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I realize that my discussing the Amidahs curse on heretics is a bit off topic but it was brought up so I would like to explore this a bit further...
http://www.pardes.org.il/online_learning/weekly-talmud/2006-01-19.php
World of Our Sages: Prayer as strongbox
By Rabbi Levi Cooper
Jan. 19, 2006
Is the identity of the authors of our supplications and their intentions of any significance when we stand in prayer before the Almighty? Perhaps the substance of our prayers is solely a function of the meaning we lend to the words we say? The Talmud appears to deem authorship important as it reports that Shimon HaPekuli arranged the order of 18 blessings that give the amida its synonomous title - the shemoneh esrei (the 18) (B. Berakhot 28b).
Following this act, the leader of rabbinic Jewry, Rabban Gamliel of Yavneh (Eretz Yisrael, first-second centuries) turned to his colleagues: "Is there anyone who knows how to compile birkat haminim (the benediction against heretics)?" These dissenters whom Rabban Gamliel wished to censure were Jews who had been enticed by early Christianity and strayed from the path of tradition. Their presence within the community, coupled with their belief in Jesus, was seen as a threat to the fabric of Judaism. Rabbinic leadership decided that there was no place in Jewish society for such heretics and hence sought to denounce them in the amida.
The Talmud relates: Shmuel HaKatan (the lesser) arose and authored this, the nineteenth blessing of the amida. What was the challenge in composing this portion of the amida, and what expertise was needed to author this benediction?
If we contrast the new addition with the rest of the amida, we see that the entire amida is filled with kindness and love, while the benediction censuring the heretics is the only section of the amida that contains destructive sentiments. Indeed, it is entirely natural that one who tries to uproot or dismember the faith of others will incur the wrath of those who hold those beliefs to be essential and sacred. A benediction against heretics, therefore, should have been the easiest portion to compose, as many people would have passionately despised these agitators.
Though such an angry reaction is to be expected, the first chief rabbi of the Land of Israel, Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak HaKohen Kook (1865-1935) writes that a benediction reverberating with negativity should only be composed by one who is pure of heart. Such a person will not blend personal feelings of hate into the canonized texts of the liturgy. Such an untainted person would author the benediction with wholesome motives, focusing only on the Divine plan.
Rabbi Kook continues explaining that it is for this reason that Shmuel HaKatan was truly suited to compose this portion of the amida decrying the heretics. Who was Shmuel HaKatan, and why was he the appropriate candidate? The Talmud relates that Rabban Gamliel invited a rabbinic quorum of seven sages in order to officially declare a leap year (B. Sanhedrin 11a). When the quorum assembled, they found that one had come uninvited.
"Who has come uninvited? Let him leave!" bellowed Rabban Gamliel.
Without hesitation, Shmuel HaKatan stepped forward: "It is I who have come uninvited. But I did not come to participate as a member of the quorum; I came to learn practical halacha." Rabban Gamliel responded with kind praise: "Be seated, my son, be seated. All the years are worthy of being made into leap years by you." The Talmud concludes the account by telling us that Shmuel HaKatan was not really the guilty party, yet he "owned up" in order to save the interloper from embarrassment.
Indeed, our sages offer some insight into the appellation Shmuel "the lesser" (Y. Sota 24b). According to one approach, Shmuel would diminish his own status and hence was known as HaKatan. Another approach suggests that Shmuel was only slightly lesser than the biblical propher Shmuel. Either way, Shmuel HaKatan was clearly no small player.
A telltale aphorism of Shmuel HaKatan is found in the mishnaic tractate Avot (4:19): "Shmuel HaKatan says - 'When your enemy falls, do not exult, and when he trips, your heart should not rejoice. Lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and avert His wrath from upon him.' (Proverbs 24:17-18)." This adage of Shmuel HaKatan is indeed strange, for he merely quotes a verse without adding any additional insight. Yet herein lies the key to understanding the many aphorisms in Avot. The dicta quoted are clearly not the only words of the sage; we already know that Shmuel HaKatan's contribution goes beyond this quote. Rather, the maxims represent sayings that each sage would harp upon, urging his community to carefully consider.
In the case of Shmuel HaKatan, he would exhort his followers to focus on this verse and its implications. Though the other might be your adversary, the downfall of this enemy is not a cause for celebration. It is this banner of Shmuel HaKatan that qualified him to compose birkat haminim.
Why is the intent of the author important? When we pray, we invest the words with meaning from our own meditative thoughts. The pure focus of the author - in this case Shmuel HaKatan - does not appear to be bound to the words of the liturgy. This idea might lead us to wonder whether those of us who are not pure of heart should even be reciting this portion of the amida.
Here, too, Rabbi Kook provides us with direction. He writes that we recite the words of the liturgy by right of the godly authors. Though we may be distant from these people of distinguished spirit, we lean on their lofty intent when we recite the prayers. The words of our prayers are umbilically connected to the intentions of the sages who authored those words.
Interestingly, the Hebrew word for 'word' in talmudic parlance is teiva (pl. teivot). Teiva is also a box or container of sorts. The words of our prayers can each be seen as teivot, strongboxes containing the thoughts of the authors.
To be sure, we aspire to open the vaults of prayer and access the intentions of the authors. If we do not succeed in retrieving the original connotations and subtext and we find ourselves mumbling words, these words are nevetheless invested with meaning by the great authors who bequeathed these prayers - words and intentions - to us.
This explains why the curse on heretics was added to the eighteen benedictions of the Amidah...
Of course RaulMarrio is correct that when we say this curse we are not talking about todays Christians. We are talking about the spiritual enemies of the Jewish people...
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The majority of people who have HIV/AIDS have procured it willingly [as opposed to smaller groups of rape victims, and children who are born from mothers who have gotten it]. Sex acts and inter-venous drug use are the #1 ways of procuring the HIV virus. It is wrong to prioritize this groups disease over diseases which manifest in people randomly who through no direct act suffer from disease, and in higher numbers. Why should society at large pay for the direct consequences of people who voluntarily engage in vice lifestyles? If people feel a passion in fighting the HIV virus, let them donate their own money willingly.
I agree with this... But once we solve Cancer and other killer diseases we should also provide relief for all who suffer.
I think I agree with you. Also, if we had unlimited resources and manpower I would be less opposed to focusing on HIV as an immediate problem [unlike now where we have limited resources and need to prioritize what is "smart" to cure]. I would also hope that decreasing the possible negative consequences of engaging in vice would not lead to people feeling more at ease in immersing themselves into immorality.
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The majority of people who have HIV/AIDS have procured it willingly [as opposed to smaller groups of rape victims, and children who are born from mothers who have gotten it]. Sex acts and inter-venous drug use are the #1 ways of procuring the HIV virus. It is wrong to prioritize this groups disease over diseases which manifest in people randomly who through no direct act suffer from disease, and in higher numbers. Why should society at large pay for the direct consequences of people who voluntarily engage in vice lifestyles? If people feel a passion in fighting the HIV virus, let them donate their own money willingly.
I agree with this... But once we solve Cancer and other killer diseases we should also provide relief for all who suffer.
I think I agree with you. Also, if we had unlimited resources and manpower I would be less opposed to focusing on HIV as an immediate problem [unlike now where we have limited resources and need to prioritize what is "smart" to cure]. I would also hope that decreasing the possible negative consequences of engaging in vice would not lead to people feeling more at ease in immersing themselves into immorality.
Excellent point... I am not suggesting that by curing it we should take away the negative consequences of the abominable behavior. But I am saying that giving people a chance at repentence could have a beneficial outcome.
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Muman, not every sin can be forgiven. Hitler, Muhammad, Stalin and any other murderer of our people will never be forgiven. A Gentile who murdered a Jew will never be forgiven and should be killed. If a Jew truely repents on murdering another Jew (only one), he can do Teshuva but his atonement will be death.
About evil (truly evil and not Tinokot She'nishbu or Captured Babies).
..אנו חייבים להבטיח ולהוכיח לעצמנו שנעקור את המתייוונים מתוכנו ,בע"ה, וזה עיקר המלחמה "בימים ההם ובזמן הזה". גם אז עיקר המלחמה הייתה במתייוונים ולא ביוונים, וגם בימינו הבעיה היא לא הערבים אלא יוסי שריד, וחובה ומצווה לומר "יימח שמו וזכרו". חובה לומר זאת "כה תאמר". זה ההבדל בינינו לבין כל השאר...
Translation:
We should promise and prove ourselves that we will take out the Hellenists, and that's the main part of the War: "In Those days and in this time". Also then the main part of the War was against the Hellenists and not the Greeks, same in our days.. The problem is not the Arabs but Yossi Sarid, and it's an obligation and a Mitvah to say "Yimach Shmo U'zichro". It's an obligation to say so "Ko Tomar". That's the difference between us and all the rest...
Raul, Karaites are mostly Safek Yehudim (doubtly Jewish) - not Jews nor Gentiles.
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If we didn't had so many homosexuals and drug addicts around, AIDS wouldn't have been a problem in America.
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Great job, Abben!
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But once we solve Cancer and other killer diseases we should also provide relief for all who suffer.
Muman, at current funding levels cancer is going to take hundreds of years to defeat. There are thousands of different kinds of it, each with their own separate pathology, that will have to be dealt with. Even the simplest cancers (those caused by UV or viral damage to skin tissues, such as the various skin cancers and cervical cancer) are still pretty difficult to deal with, depending on how advanced they are. We have not discovered anything that will make cancer cells die except invasive surgery and whole-body poisoning (chemotherapy, radiation, etc.). At the core level controlling cancer is like controlling the choices that every single human being makes in their lives, because essentially every cell's DNA has "free will" and can "choose" to go bad at any time.
Or, just look at breast cancer, one of the commonest of all cancers, which has numerous different causes and variants. There are dozens of kinds of breast cancer alone. Yeah we have succeeded in bringing down the death rate from it some thanks to aggressive early screenings and radical surgery, but have we come close to preventing it, reducing the incidence of it, or controlling it through non-drastic means? No to all of the above.
In short I think we are many, many lifetimes removed from any degree of victory over cancer, and that is assuming that we drastically increase our funding for research.
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Muman, not every sin can be forgiven. Hitler, Muhammad, Stalin and any other murderer of our people will never be forgiven. A Gentile who murdered a Jew will never be forgiven and should be killed. If a Jew truely repents on murdering another Jew (only one), he can do Teshuva but his atonement will be death.
About evil (truly evil and not Tinokot She'nishbu or Captured Babies).
..אנו חייבים להבטיח ולהוכיח לעצמנו שנעקור את המתייוונים מתוכנו ,בע"ה, וזה עיקר המלחמה "בימים ההם ובזמן הזה". גם אז עיקר המלחמה הייתה במתייוונים ולא ביוונים, וגם בימינו הבעיה היא לא הערבים אלא יוסי שריד, וחובה ומצווה לומר "יימח שמו וזכרו". חובה לומר זאת "כה תאמר". זה ההבדל בינינו לבין כל השאר...
Translation:
We should promise and prove ourselves that we will take out the Hellenists, and that's the main part of the War: "In Those days and in this time". Also then the main part of the War was against the Hellenists and not the Greeks, same in our days.. The problem is not the Arabs but Yossi Sarid, and it's an obligation and a Mitvah to say "Yimach Shmo U'zichro". It's an obligation to say so "Ko Tomar". That's the difference between us and all the rest...
Raul, Karaites are mostly Safek Yehudim (doubtly Jewish) - not Jews nor Gentiles.
Ron,
Review the story of Acher and talk to me about this...
http://www.torah.org/learning/olas-shabbos/5760/bo.html
The Gemara (Chagiga 15a) tells the tragic story of Elisha ben Avuya - also known as "Acher" - who after many years as a renowned Torah scholar, lost his faith, and began to sin. One of Acher's greatest disciples had been the great Talmudic sage Rabbi Meir. The Talmud relates that even after his rebbe, Acher, had abandoned his Judaism, Rabbi Meir continued to visit him, partly in order to try to bring him back.
Once, Rabbi Meir said to his rebbe: "What is the meaning of that which is written (Iyov/Job 28:17), 'Gold and crystal cannot equal it, nor can it be exchanged with golden vessels?'"
"This refers," said Acher, "to the words of Torah, which are as difficult to acquire as gold, and as easy to lose as crystal is to break!"
"No!" said Rabbi Meir, "your rebbe, Rabbi Akiva, did not explain it like that. Rather, he said, 'Just like vessels of gold and crystal, even if they broke, can always be fixed (even crystal can be reheated and re-formed) - so too, even the greatest Torah scholar, if he has done wrong, can still repent!' Rebbe," pleaded Rabbi Meir, "relent from your ways!"
"Impossible!" said Acher, "I can not return. For from behind the [heavenly] partition I have heard [the voice of G-d] proclaiming (Yirmiyahu/Jeremiah 3:14), 'Return, O wayward sons - except for Acher!' [Evidently, I am beyond repentance.]"
Even so, the Gemara relates, Rabbi Meir continued [unsuccessfully] to hound his rebbe, pleading with him to repent. Did Rabbi Meir not believe in Acher's heavenly voice? Can one indeed sin to the point where he is "beyond teshuva?"
The short answer is: Yes, one can pervert his life so badly that the Gates of Teshuva are closed in his face. One can, so to speak, sin to the point of "no return." Indeed, this is precisely what occurred with Acher. The heavenly voice was proof that his teshuva was no longer acceptable.
Yet, asks Agra de-Pirka, what would have been if, after the initial shock of hearing the heavenly proclamation "Return, O wayward sons - except for Acher," Elisha would have said to himself: "So what! Perhaps they can prevent me from entering the Garden of Eden, but they can't stop me from trying to salvage my wretched life! I will do my best to repent. If my teshuva will not be accepted - so be it. At least I will know that I have not lived out my last days wallowing in the disgust of my own sin!" Would his teshuva indeed have been thrown in his face?
http://www.dafyomi.co.il/yoma/insites/yo-dt-087.htm
http://www.aish.com/tp/i/moha/57606397.html
NO WAY HOME
Acher is brilliant, and not easily swayed.13 Entrenched in his position, he does not budge. But he is not only brilliant, he has a wonderful excuse: G-d does not want him back. He has heard a Heavenly Voice; he, who has seen heaven with his own eyes and heard a voice from heaven speak directly to him, feels the path back to heaven is forever closed. Rabbi Meir does not concur; he waits, looking for an opening to cajole and bring back his wayward teacher.14
Our Rabbis taught: Once Acher was riding on a horse on the Shabbat, and R. Meir was walking behind him to learn Torah from him. Said [Acher] to him: Meir, turn back, for I have already measured by the paces of my horse that thus far extends the Shabbat limit.15 He replied: You, too, go back! [Acher] answered: Have I not already told you that I have already heard from behind the Veil: 'Return ye mischievous children' - all except Acher.
Acher's excuse of "hearing voices" is not easily countered, but Rabbi Meir apparently does not believe this edict. He looks for another way to gain insight into the judgment of Heaven, for Rabbi Meir believes Heaven always leaves room for return. He continues to look for a sign, an understanding, an open window that will allow his teacher to regain his "place at the table." He turns to an "oracle" of sorts, travelling with his teacher from one study hall to then next, seeking the spark of divine spirit possessed by pure, innocent children engrossed in Torah learning:
[R. Meir] grabbed him and took him, to a schoolhouse. [Acher] said to a child: Recite for me thy verse![The child] answered: 'There is no peace, said the Almighty, unto the wicked' (Yishaiyahu 48:22). He then took him to another schoolhouse. [Acher] said to a child: Recite for me thy verse! He answered: 'For though you wash yourself with nitre, and take much soap, yet your iniquity is marked before Me, said the Almighty G-d (Yirmiyah 2:22). He took him to yet another schoolhouse, and [Acher] said (Talmud - Chagigah 15b) to a child: Recite for me thy verse! He answered: 'And you, that are spoiled, what do you, that you clothe yourself with scarlet, that you bedeck yourself with ornaments of gold, that you enlarge your eyes with paint? In vain do you make yourself fair… (Yirmiyahu 4:30). He took him to yet another schoolhouse until he took him to thirteen schools; all of them quoted in similar vein. When he said to the last one, 'Recite for my thy verse,' he answered: But unto the wicked G-d said: 'What have you to do to declare My statutes?( Tehilim 50:16). That child was a stutterer, so it sounded as though he answered: 'But to Elisha G-d said'. Some say that [Acher] had a knife with him, and he cut him up and sent him to the thirteen schools; and some say that he said: 'Had I a knife in my hand I would have cut him up.'
One after the other, the children deliver a disturbing, even ominous message of despair to Acher: his soul is sullied and cannot be cleansed. Acher, tormented by his own demons, vents his anger on the innocent. Had he merely threatened violence and abused the child verbally, the narrative would be upsetting, and our estimation of Acher greatly reduced. But the Talmud considers the possibility that Acher actually murdered the thirteenth child and sent his remains to the others as some type of ominous warning of his own.
Ron, obviously I am only talking about a Jew who wants to do Teshuva... Even if they are guilty of Shabbat desecration, murder, and other transgressions there is a chance that their soul will be forgiven if they only repent of their evil..
Once again enemies of the Jewish people will not be forgiven.. And I agree that we should curse all enemies of the Jews every day, as Rabbi Kahane {Zt''l} so beautifully said.
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Abben, we all know that you are one of the people on this forum that will do anything he/she can to engender a hatred of homosexuals and ask questions on ask JTF that will induce the kind of response you got
Many of the diseases Chaim describes: heart disease and diabetes for example can be successfully medically managed. Many people with these diseases unfortunately do not follow doctor's (REPEATED) orders and keep engaging in the same behaviors that wind them back again in the hospital. Should we not pay for these people's hospitalizations? Why not? Most of these folks are wantonly overweight and do not seem to care when they are counselled time and again about weight loss and diet. No one accuses these people of bankrupting our health system. When they go into renal failure from diabetes and need transplants, no one is saying what Chaim is saying here about HIV--no one From a financial point of view these illnesses which are far more common and very responsive to treatment are more devastating to the financial backbone of our health care system than HIV or any STD for that matter.
THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE PROMISCUOUS and thinking the government will take care of them--of course not. The point here is let's not be selective in the behaviors we choose to criticize.
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Dr Brenan. No matter if real nazis were perhps more commnunist than right-wings. neo-nazis of today are pro-right-wing. Now, if we ask some (not all) religious Gentile rightists about why some people were killed by AIDS, they would reply that it was because they did abominations. If we ask them where is their soul now, they would probably reply that they don't know. But if we ask them where is the soul of the Jewish martirs who were murdered for keeping their faith, they would reply that they are in Hell for keeping the wrong religion.
No. The Nazis of today are like the original fascists, leftists but with an added racial element. The Nazis of today are allies of the radical left at every turn.
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Abben, we all know that you are one of the people on this forum that will do anything he/she can to engender a hatred of homosexuals and ask questions on ask JTF that will induce the kind of response you got
Many of the diseases Chaim describes: heart disease and diabetes for example can be successfully medically managed. Many people with these diseases unfortunately do not follow doctor's (REPEATED) orders and keep engaging in the same behaviors that wind them back again in the hospital. Should we not pay for these people's hospitalizations? Why not? Most of these folks are wantonly overweight and do not seem to care when they are counselled time and again about weight loss and diet. No one accuses these people of bankrupting our health system. When they go into renal failure from diabetes and need transplants, no one is saying what Chaim is saying here about HIV--no one From a financial point of view these illnesses which are far more common and very responsive to treatment are more devastating to the financial backbone of our health care system than HIV or any STD for that matter.
THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE PROMISCUOUS and thinking the government will take care of them--of course not. The point here is let's not be selective in the behaviors we choose to criticize.
We still have no way to cure or even prevent Type 1 diabetes, a horrible genetic disease in which the immune system decides to destroy the pancreas of (usually) very young children. T1D is about 10% of diabetes today if I am not mistaken. Likewise many forms of heart disease are hereditary or purely a matter of the aging process and not a person's fault. Why should HIV receive precedence over them?
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Dr. BrennanFan, I agree with you 1000 percent.
HIV should absolutely NOT take precedence over them. Most diabetics, as you correctly note, are Type II. The morbidity from this disease is almost entirely preventable, as it is for people who develop Cardiac disability from diseases like idiopathic hypertension which accounts for more than 90 percent of all people who have high blood pressure. It has been my and my colleagues very unfortunate experience that it is the rare rare pt who actually says, "Yes, doc, help me lose weight." Much more common, and this is the fault of the medical establishment in part, is the pt. for whom we just keep increasing the Lipitor or the Blood pressure med that they are on.
I agree, people who engage in unpprotected sex with unknown partners are doing themselves and society a disservice, but where I disagree is in the belief that they deserve to suffer. There are some people on this forum that seem overly enthusiastic at the prospect of certain people suffering, albeit indirectly. These people are not people who want to harm them or make their lives difficult, but strangers. There is something about that kind of disposition that I find very evil.
I agree that people must be encouraged through every means possible to prevent their acquisition of a disease. But if they get the disease, I dont then say, "well tough luck on you, you asked for it, you deserve it, I'm glad you got it anyway because you are a bad person and only bad people get what is coming to them." If we adapt that kind of attitude, I dont know where we will be as a civiliazation. This doesn't mean, "anything goes," far from it. You help someone develop a moral life, you don't try to destroy them for not having one.
Thank you for your question and the spirit in which it was asked.