JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Sox7 on November 18, 2010, 11:51:59 PM
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My background is Christian, so I am quite ignorant about some of these points, and these are questions I had:
1.) What is the Jewish belief on the creation of the world and life? Do they believe in a literal 6 days of creation, as some Christians do, or do they believe in 6 "undefined ages" that would allow for an old earth geology and evolution?
2.) What is the Jewish belief regarding eternal life? Is there a resurrection of the dead? What happens to the spirit between the moment of death and the resurrection of the body? Is there an eternal hell?
3.) Are there angels, demons, Satan, etc. who are actively involved in human destiny?
4.) How long will Messiah rule? Is it an eternal rule, 1000 years, something else?
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Wow, you have asked a lot of questions.
I usually try to answer peoples questions about Judaism. But some of the ideas you are asking are very deep and complex to explain.
Let me give short and simple answers:
1) Creation of the world.
It is not necessary to believe in a literal 6 days of creation. There are those sages who explain that before the sun and the stars were created there was no concept of a 24-hour day, and thus the days may actually be 1000s of years in our time today. There is also the concept that the story is an allegory for the reason Hashem {G-d} created mankind.
There have been many discussions on evolution on this forum. Personally I don't subscribe to that belief. But it is not against the Torah to believe that, as we certainly believe that science is a tool given by Hashem for us to understand the wonderful world which he created for us.
2. Eternal Life
Yes, we believe in Olam Haba which means 'The World to Come'. We believe that our souls are judged after death, and our mitzvot {deeds} are weighed on a scale. Our sins are weighed also, and depending on whether we reached the potential which we were created with, we are rewarded with the pleasure of Olam Haba. If we have transgressed we are punished in a place called Gehennom, which is called Hell by some... But our punishment there is not eternal as it acts only as a purification for our souls so that they may be rewarded in Gan Eden {Paradise/Heaven}.
We have the belief in Ressurection of the Dead. After the age of Moshiach comes all the Jewish souls, and those righteous souls, will walk again. Our souls will re-inhabit our bodies. It is one of the 13 major principles of Jewish faith to believe in the Resurrection.
3. Angels & Demons
Yes, we believe in angels and demons. But they are not like they are portrayed in common Christian imagery. The Hebrew word for angel is Molach, which also means messenger. In the Torah the angel is a power created by Hashem in order to influence physical events in the world. An angel is sent on a particular mission, and its name represents its mission.
Demons are created by humans through their sinful acts. Our demons will testify against us on judgment day. This is also the concept of Satan, who is the lead prosecutor on judgment day. The word Satan in Hebrew means Prosecutor, and he also acts as the Yetzer Hara, which is the personal force inside all of us to do evil {Yetzer Hara=Evil Inclination}.
4. Messiah
The Moshiach is the anointed king of Israel. When Moshiach comes he will usher in an era of great change. There are many different interpretations of the events which will occur. The Prophets discuss this event quite often. One of the concepts is that he will rule for 1000 years before the Resurrection of the Dead.
If you are interested in more in-depth discussion please ask.
Here is an interesting discussion on Jewish Eschatology : http://www.aish.com/jl/l/a/48943926.html
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Here is a short excerpt from this Aish article:
Reincarnation and Jewish Tradition
by Yaakov Astor
Does Judaism believe in reincarnation?
The word eschatology is defined in the dictionary as a branch of theology concerned with the final events of the history of the world. The truth is that eschatology is not exclusively the domain of religion. The most striking example of a secular eschatology would be Marxism: the convulsions and agonies of the class war, its evils resolving themselves into the classless society, the withering of the state and the blissful existence ever after.
Jewish eschatology is made up of three basic pieces:
1. "The Era of the Messiah."
2. "The Afterlife."
3. "The World of Resurrection."
The Messiah, according to traditional Jewish sources, will be a human being born of a flesh and blood mother and father,1 unlike the Christian idea that has him as the son of G-d conceived immaculately. In fact, Maimonides writes that the Messiah will complete his job and then die like everyone else. 2
What's his job? To end the agony of history and usher in a new era of bliss for humanity at large.3 The time period in which he emerges and completes his task is called the Messianic Era. According to one Talmudic opinion it's not an era of overt miracles, where the rules of nature are overturned. Rather the only new element introduced to the world will be peace among the nations, with the Jewish people living in their land under their own sovereignty, unencumbered by persecution and anti-Semitism, free to pursue their spiritual goals like never before.4
The Afterlife proper is called in the traditional sources olam habah, or the World to Come. However, the same term, "olam habah," is also used to refer to the renewed utopic world of the future -- the World of Resurrection, olam hat'chiah (as explained in the next paragraph). 5 The former is the place righteous souls go to after death -- and they have been going there since the first death. That place is also sometimes called the World of Souls. 6 It's a place where souls exist in a disembodied state, enjoying the pleasures of closeness to G-d. Thus, genuine near death experiences are presumably glimpses into the World of Souls, the place most people think of when the term Afterlife is mentioned.
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Ok, you got me going....
Here is a little excerpt from an article on angels, and it is very timely because we have been reading these portions of the Torah as the weekly Shabbat readings these last couple of weeks.
http://www.aish.com/tp/b/mt/48951236.html
Understanding the Angels
by Rabbi Max Weiman
Jacob encounters angels in several places, for example during his ladder dream (Genesis 28:12), and again in Genesis 31:10 and 32:2. It seems that more than anyone else in the Bible, Jacob has a special affinity for "angel contact."
What's an angel?
In English the expression "You're an angel," is always used in a positive sense. It seems many people are under the impression that the spiritual realm is only good. Yet an angel was sent to destroy Sodom. And we're all familiar with the famous "bad" angel called Satan. So we see that angels can do both "good" and "bad."
The Hebrew word for angel is malach, which actually can also mean a messenger, even a non-angel. An angel is merely a messenger of the Almighty; sometimes the messenger is sent to do something positive, sometimes it's sent to carry out a punishment or negative consequence, and sometimes it's sent to test a person.
Free will is the main thing that separates mankind from angels, and makes us more like God. Angels are bound to do God's will and can do nothing else. Even Satan, the angel created to test us with moral challenges, is only doing exactly what the Almighty wants him to do. He is a messenger.
Angels are absorbed in the spiritual realm. They have form without physicality. They are pure conduits for the Infinite to have an influence in our realm. God doesn't "need" them, but he uses them to bridge the gap between the finite and the Infinite.
If you look up at the heavens at night, you will see more stars than you can count. The stars are an analogy to angels. There are more than you can count. Each angel has a job to do and there is a hierarchy amongst all of them, with categories of angels in higher and lower positions.
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YOU, TOO
You also have "angel contact" without realizing it.
Every blade of grass has an angel that hits it and says "grow." (Zohar)
Every event in your life, great and small, good and bad, happens because God causes an angel to act through His grand system of the spiritual infrastructure. The difference with Jacob was that he was sufficiently attuned to actually recognize the angel involvement.
There was a time when people detected the accompaniment of angels and would say a short prayer to them when they parted. Although I don't know how many people can say they feel the presence of angels on the way home from synagogue on Shabbat, but even to this day the custom is to sing a song to the angels at the Friday night table.
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COMMANDING THE ANGELS
Queen Esther, the mystics say, employed a demon to sleep with King Achashverosh so she wouldn't have to. Joseph did the same with the wife of Potiphar, but he was eventually discovered. The Talmud relates how King Solomon forced an angel to give him information he wanted.
Jewish tradition has numerous accounts of people having the ability to coerce different angels to do their bidding. Sometimes it's because the person was so holy that he was given this ability by God, as it says in Pirkei Avot, "Do His will, and He will do yours." If you follow the will of the Infinite in your life, you have the special merit of having God put His angels at your call.
The Kabbalistic writings contain the knowledge of incantations that can coerce angels to do you bidding. If, however, you are not spiritually strong enough for this act, it will seriously harm you. In other words, play with fire and you may get burned.
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In case you were wondering about the 13 principles of faith according to the great Jewish sage RaMBaM.
http://www.ou.org/torah/rambam.htm
THE RAMBAM'S THIRTEEN PRINCIPLES
OF JEWISH FAITH
1. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is the Creator and Ruler of all things. He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.
2. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is One. There is no unity that is in any way like His. He alone is our G-d He was, He is, and He will be.
3. I believe with perfect faith that G-d does not have a body. physical concepts do not apply to Him. There is nothing whatsoever that resembles Him at all.
4. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is first and last.
5. I believe with perfect faith that it is only proper to pray to G-d. One may not pray to anyone or anything else.
6. I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true.
7. I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses is absolutely true. He was the chief of all prophets, both before and after Him.
8. I believe with perfect faith that the entire Torah that we now have is that which was given to Moses.
9. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will never be another given by G-d.
10. I believe with perfect faith that G-d knows all of man's deeds and thoughts. It is thus written (Psalm 33:15), "He has molded every heart together, He understands what each one does."
11. I believe with perfect faith that G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him.
12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. How long it takes, I will await His coming every day.
13. I believe with perfect faith that the dead will be brought back to life when G-d wills it to happen.
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I just noticed that one of the principles of Rambam seems to contradict something which was mentioned in the article about angels. But there is an answer to this apparent contradiction {of course}...
Look at this:
There was a time when people detected the accompaniment of angels and would say a short prayer to them when they parted. Although I don't know how many people can say they feel the presence of angels on the way home from synagogue on Shabbat, but even to this day the custom is to sing a song to the angels at the Friday night table.
This seems to imply that the song Shalom Aleichem {which we sing Friday night Shabbat meal} violates one of Rambams principles which say that a Jew must not pray to anyone but Hashem...
5. I believe with perfect faith that it is only proper to pray to G-d. One may not pray to anyone or anything else.
Well, this excerpt from torah.org answers this...
http://www.torah.org/learning/ramchal/classes/chapter6-4.html
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For the most part, angels aren’t named in the Torah (though see Daniel 8:16, 9:21, and 12:1). But the names of certain lofty and prevailing angels were revealed to us elsewhere. So we learn of Michael the angel of mercy; Gabriel the angel of justice; Raphael the angel of healing; Uriel the angel of illumination; and of others.
So while angels are indeed extraordinarily dominant in the playing out of things, and serve a high function, and thus we might be tempted to be in awe of them, they’re not at all G-d nor do they substitute for His will or intentions whatsoever. And so it has always been forbidden us to worship angels.
Thus while we’re taught that it’s angels who bring our prayers before G- d’s presence, we’re not at all to pray for their intervention, since G-d alone listens to our prayers. And in fact some great rabbis have disapproved of passages in which angels are evoked for that reason (like Shalom Aleichem, which we sing at the Shabbos table), but others defended those prayers on the grounds that we’re only asking the angels to be our couriers.
In any event Ramchal offers a number of other insights. He reveals elsewhere that an angel appears to each soul before birth to teach it Torah in preparation for life, but it then has us forget what we’d learned (for the most part) so that we could earn merit studying it (Derech Eitz Chaim). That would explain the real sense of “déjà vu” that many Torah scholars experience in their studies throughout the years. And angels also come into play in the background of everyday and certain other extraordinary events in our lives.
He also makes the point that each angel has a particular and unique task to fulfill. So when they carry through on G-d’s demands when it comes to our interactions with Him, they either strive to include what has to be done here into their purview, or they opt out altogether. In any event, they always work with things in accordance with the Divine merit system cited before (see Ch. 14), and play no role in our free choices.
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To Sox7
On most of the issues you raised Judaism has no firm dogma on these questions and you will find rabbis in good standing that have opposing views.
For a more detailed answer on the first issue you raised. Read:
The Big Bang Theory- Proof or Disproof For G-d ?
at http://www.vilnagaon.org/book/creation.html (http://www.vilnagaon.org/book/creation.html)
You will also find links at the web site for some of the other issues that you raised.
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To Sox7
On most of the issues you raised Judaism has no firm dogma on these questions and you will find rabbis in good standing that have opposing views.
For a more detailed answer on the first issue you raised. Read:
The Big Bang Theory- Proof or Disproof For G-d ?
at http://www.vilnagaon.org/book/creation.html (http://www.vilnagaon.org/book/creation.html)
You will also find links at the web site for some of the other issues that you raised.
Wouldn't you consider the 13 principles of faith pretty much accepted by all Orthodox Jews?
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To Sox7
On most of the issues you raised Judaism has no firm dogma on these questions and you will find rabbis in good standing that have opposing views.
For a more detailed answer on the first issue you raised. Read:
The Big Bang Theory- Proof or Disproof For G-d ?
at http://www.vilnagaon.org/book/creation.html (http://www.vilnagaon.org/book/creation.html)
You will also find links at the web site for some of the other issues that you raised.
Wouldn't you consider the 13 principles of faith pretty much accepted by all Orthodox Jews?
It's one basic guideline, but it's also not so simple. Because there were many greats (rishonim included) who occasionally would have views on individual issues that went beyond these limits, and even with the Rambam himself it can be found statements of his that seem not to actually fit in with this general guideline if these 13 are taken literally. In short, it's a basic framework, but it's not the be-all-and-end-all, and we can't just automatically label anything beyond it as out of the pale.
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To Muman13
Since the original questions raised by Sox7 weren't connected to the 13 principles of the faith, I answered him that Judaism doesn't have a firm dogma on most of the issues he raised.
He didn't for example, ask Do Jews believe in the Creation of the World by G-d? He asked in what way should the story of Creation be interpreted, and on this many rabbis have different approaches.
Sox7 didn't reject the concept of reward and punishment. He asked in what ways will reward and punishment be expressed, as far as heaven and hell and resurrection of the dead and messiah.
The answer of HOW the various rewards and punishment take place or will take place is also a subject where there is no complete consensus among good Torah observant rabbis.
Kahane-Was-Right BT also made the point, that even among the 13 principles of the faith, which I obviously accept, there are some respectable rabbis, that disagree a little bit on at least one of the 13.
In summary I would not be so quick to invalidate fellow Jews. True some times we have no choice and we have to label certain Jews as heretics, but we should work hard to find ways to judge our fellow Jews for the benefit of the doubt as much as possible.
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Thanks all for the answers so far, very interesting.
More questions:
1.) Strictly speaking, were the original Jews just from the tribe of Judah? The other tribes, e.g. Reuben, Gad, Asher, etc. would they be Jews or Hebrews/Israelites?
2.) Was Abraham a Jew, Hebrew, or neither? I ask because it was my impression that Israelites (and then Jews) begin with Jacob and his descendants. Abraham couldn't be a Jew because then Ishmael and Esau would be also?
3.) What is the thinking on the lost 10 tribes? Were they assimilated into the Jews or are they still lost somewhere, and assuming they are lost, will they be "extracted" out of the Gentile world some day or lost forever?
4.) Is the Talmud essential for being a good Jew? In other words, is it more like an interpretation of the traditional way of following Torah laws, or are there more laws in it that are not in the Torah that must be followed?
5.) Connected with 4, at what point do rabbinical writings become so strongly prescribed that they become practically law? Mishna? Gemara? Mishneh Torah or Shulchan Aruch?
6.) When did patrilineality/matrilineality begin in Judaism? I ask because Karaite Jews who reject the Talmud believe Jewishness goes through the father, so I was wondering when either method of "counting" began?
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I prefer at this point in time just to answer questions 1 and 6
1.) Strictly speaking, were the original Jews just from the tribe of Judah? The other tribes, e.g. Reuben, Gad, Asher, etc. would they be Jews or Hebrews/Israelites?
Today, all who Jewish Law deems obligated to follow the Torah are called Jews, even if they come from other tribes such as Levi or Benjamin or even if they are converts. This probably stems from the fact that tribe of Judah contained the largest number of Israelites loyal to the religion of Israel and the monarchy was also under their control while the majority of the ten tribes assimilated.
It would not be incorrect however, to call Jews by the name, Israelites or the children of Israel.
However, one should be aware, that certain secular Israelis use the term, Israeli to denote whoever, has Israeli citizenship, even if he is not recognized by Judaism as a Jew.
Question 6 6.) When did patrilineality/matrilineality begin in Judaism? I ask because Karaite Jews who reject the Talmud believe Jewishness goes through the father, so I was wondering when either method of "counting" began?
Answer. Tribal status is determined by the father. Religious status of whether one is part of the community that is obligated to observe the Torah is determined by the mother.
Rabbis of the Talmud prove their point from verses in the Torah [5 books of Moses]
I however will quote from the book of Ezra, where I think the idea is more clear to the common man.
In Ezra chapter 10 verse 3 after Ezra complains bitterly about intermarriage the decision is made to send away non-Jewish wives [who had not converted] as well as the children born from them. Here we see that the offspring of a non-jewish woman is accorded the same non-Jewish status as the mother and therefore the Jewish father was separated from both the woman and the children.
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4.) Is the Talmud essential for being a good Jew? In other words, is it more like an interpretation of the traditional way of following Torah laws, or are there more laws in it that are not in the Torah that must be followed?
Even though I am secular I acknowledge that without the Talmud, and the Talmudic studies there would be no Jewish people. The Torah is intertwined inside the Talmud. The 613 mitzvot (commandments) all come from the Torah. Yet they can only be fully understood and followed using the Oral Torah (which eventually became written in the form of the Mishna and the Gmara Which are the Talmud). Here is a simple example- A Jew must sit in a Sukkah (some form of a temporary hut) during the biblical holiday of Sukkot. But what is a kosher hut, the Torah doesn't elaborate. Then comes the Oral Torah and (after much discussion) clears that out.
So anyway, It is incorrect to say that the Talmud is an interpretation of the Torah law, it is an elaboration.
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Abraham, our father, was called Ha-Ivri... Ha-Ivri or Hebrew means, On the other side, as in Abraham stood on one side of the world, and the rest of the world on the other... Abraham is the father of Monotheism, the belief in the ONE G-d, the creator of everything...
Abraham had Isaac through Sarah, who in effect had converted to Judaism... Ishmael was born to Abraham through his wives maidservant Hagar, in effect Ishmael was supposed to be Sarahs son, but because Hagar was rebellious and her son was a wild donkey of a man, Hagar and Ishmael were sent out of Abrahams house. Ishmael has ABSOLUTELY NO claim on the promises which Hashem gave Abraham concerning the blessings on the Jewish nation. Ishmael was promised to be the leader of a great nations also, which we believe is the arab nations...
The portion in the Torah where we first learn about Abraham is the portion called 'Lech Lecha'... Here is an article on this portion.
http://www.aish.com/tp/b/sw/48945296.html
Idols 'R Us
The point of this story is that sometimes we get so caught up in producing, achieving and becoming successful, that we may never stop to ask, "What is life all about? What am I really living for?"
This week's parsha tells the story of Abraham. When he was three years old, Abraham observed the world of nature with all its perfection, beauty, symmetry, precision, timing, balance, integration, coordination, unity -- and he concluded that for a world so perfectly designed, there must be an intelligent designer. Abraham had discovered God.
On the surface, this conclusion is not so amazing. Take any three-year-old to a toy factory and show him the process of design, manufacture and assembly. Would he mistakenly think these toys are produced by accident?!
What is so unique about Abraham's discovery, however, is that he lived in a world steeped in idolatry. Idolatry is a counterfeit attempt to satisfy the basic human need to connect to a dimension beyond ourselves. For some, this means carving a statue of Buddha; for others, it's owning a new Mercedes. During Abraham's time, everyone had an idol.
Abraham's discovery is all the more remarkable given that his family owned and operated a successful idol store. One day, when Abraham was asked to watch the store, he took a hammer and smashed all the idols -- except for the largest. His father came home aghast. "What happened?!" he shouted. "It was amazing, Dad," replied Abraham. "The idols all got into a fight and the biggest idol won!" There was no way for his father to respond; deep down he knew that Abraham had tuned into a deeper truth.
Abraham continued his effort to convince others. He brought guests into his tent, which was open on all four sides and pitched right in the middle of an inter-city highway. Abraham also authored a 400-chapter book refuting idolatry. And he endured all types of mockery and persecution for holding beliefs that were, to say the least, politically incorrect. Nimrod, as the most powerful world leader of the time, was the one most threatened by Abraham's ideas of a supreme God. So Nimrod threw Abraham into a fiery furnace, saying "Let's see your God save you now." Abraham emerged unscathed.
In fact, the Torah calls him Avraham Ha-Ivri -- Abraham the Hebrew. Ha-Ivri translates literally as "the one who stands on the other side." The entire world stood on one side, with Abraham standing firm on the other.
Abraham is the first Patriarch of the Jewish people... His son Isaac is the continuation of the Abrahamic faith... Isaacs son Jacob is the father of the 12 tribes of Israel. It is important to remember that Jacob is given the name Israel after he has struggled with Essaus angel {which we read last week}. The Children of Israel will receive the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai after they are taken out by Hashem through his servant Moses.
Some good answers to questions can be found here: http://www.askmoses.com/en/list/195/History-Patriarchs-12-Tribes.html
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Regarding the Talmud...
The Talmud is considered a part of the Torah according to Orthodox Judaism. There is no separating the two. We believe that there are two parts of the Torah, both of them given over to Moses and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai. These two parts are referred to as:
Torah she'bichsav - The Written Torah (Tanach = Torah Naviim Ketuvim)
Torah Baal Peh - The Oral Torah (Talmud, Midrash, Gemara, etc.)
http://www.torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/oraltorah.html
What is the Oral Torah?
As mentioned earlier, there are two "Torahs": the Written and the Oral. In Jewish tradition, both were given to Moses at Mt. Sinai and during the forty years in the desert, and taught to the whole nation. [In fact, when Judaism says "G-d gave the Torah to Moses at Sinai" it is talking only about the Oral -- otherwise, Moses should have known about the Golden Calf, and as for Korach's Rebellion, Moses should have reacted "well, we've been expecting you..."]
Both have been with us, according to Jewish sources, for all of the past 3300 years. And without both, it is impossible to fully understand traditional Jewish teaching or thought. The Written Torah, mentiones each of the Commandments, or Mitzvos, only in passing or by allusion. The Oral Law fills in the gaps.
Here is an example: "And you shall tie them as a sign on your arm and for (Totafos) between your eyes." (Deut. 6 8) This is the source for the Mitzvah of Tefillin (phylacteries - if that's any clearer), but it doesn't tell us that much. From this alone, we'd never know how to do this Mitzvah. What are we supposed to tie to the arm? With what do we tie it? What are "Totafos?" What is it a sign of? Without the Oral Law, quite simply, there's no Mitzvah of Tefillin. And there aren't too many other Mitzvos that'll make much sense either. Not, that is, without some form of commentary.
With that said, it wouldn't have made any sense for the Author of the Five Books to have left us nothing more than tantalizing hints we still would have no idea what to do. So, either the Torah was written by an idiot (or a relatively clueless 'redactor' according to modern theorists) who just never thought things through enough to tell us what to put into our Tefillin... or there must be an instruction manual somewhere that came in the same package. We call this "instruction manual" the Oral law.
Let's see another example. "When you shall be far away from the place that the L-rd your G-d shall choose to place His name (i.e. when you'll live far from Jerusalem and the Temple), slaughter from your herd and from your flock that which the L-rd has given you, as He has commanded you..." (Deut. 12 21)
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http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2000/Parasha/rsch_kisisa.html
The Torah She’Baal Peh
Towards the end of Parashat Ki Tissa, Moshe is told by Hakadosh Baruch Hu that he will be giving him a two-part Torah – part biketav, in writing, and part baal peh, oral. These two parts of the Torah must be transmitted from generation to generation , each in its own fashion. The Torah shebiktav must be taught mitoch haketav, from reading from a written scroll, while the Torah shebaal peh must be transmitted orally. The Talmud (Temura 14b) records that at a certain point in history the Rabbis felt that there was a serious concern that the insistence on observing this point of law could possibly cause much of the Oral Torah to be forgotten, so they permitted the transmitting of the Torah shebaal peh from a written text. The expression used by the Talmud in this context is, "it is preferred that one letter of the Torah be violated, rather than have the entire Torah forgotten."
Rambam (Mamrim 2:4) gives an analogy from medicine to understand this point: Sometimes a doctor will amputate an arm of the leg of a patient to keep him alive. Rambam, however, quotes from the Talmud (Yevamot 90b) that such a special "hetter" may be practiced only as a horaat shaah (on a temporary basis) and not ledorot (permanently).
Many centuries have passed and the Oral Torah is still being taught from written texts of Mishnayot, Talmud, and Shulchan Aruch. This poses an obvious problem. Can a practice which has continued for close to two thousand years be considered a horaat shaah because at some time in the future (i.e. leyemot hamoshiach) that practice will be discontinued? This issue is dealt with in the classical halachic literature.
Exactly when this change in the style of teaching the Torah shebaal peh occurred was a question among the scholars. It is generally assumed today that this change occurred after the times of Ravina and Rav Ashi. The Talmud quotes several passages from the "Sefer of Adam Harishon", the book that G-d showed Adam about the transmission and the development of the Torah throughout the ages. One such line reads that, "Ravina and Rav Ashi will be the end of the period of horaah." Rav Moshe Soloveitchik took this to be referring to the aforementioned issue: because after their time the Torah shebaal peh was no longer being transmitted orally, the status of the Rabbis as "baalei horaah" was lowered halachically. All the Rabbis from the days of Yehoshua until the days of Ravina and Rav Ashi had a higher level status of baalei horaah than those that followed them. We therefore assume that while in each generation the Rabbis are entitled to express their own original opinions, even in disagreement with those who preceded them, those following Ravina and Rav Ashi do not have the authority to disagree with the accepted positions of the Talmud. Only a "baal horaah" is entitled to an opinion, (Horaah being a definitive position on a matter of Torah shebaal peh) and the "baalei horaah" of the later period, when the Oral Torah was no longer being transmitted orally, are on a halachically lower level.
http://revach.net/article.php?id=2039
Ezra HaSofer - The Moshe Rabbeinu of the Oral Torah
Sefer Ezra begins during the seventy year era following the destruction of the first Beis Hamikdash by Nevuchadnetzer, king of Bavel. Nevuchadnetzer exiled the Jews to Bavel, and it was known through Yirmayahu's nevuah that Hashem had promised to redeem the Jews after seventy years. During these seventy years, Bavel had been conquered by Paras and Madai. During the reign of Coresh, the king of Paras, Yirmayhu's nevuah began to be fulfilled. Coresh announced to his kingdom that all the Jews should ascend to Yerushalayim and rebuild the Beis Hamikdash. The Jews who heeded this call were led by Zerubavel, Yeshua, Nechemia, and Mordechai Bilshan, among others. Mordechai Bilshan was Mordechai Hatzaddik who appears in the story of Esther. When the construction of the Beis Hamikdash was halted, Mordechai traveled to Paras to try to influence the king to allow the Jew to continue the construction of the Beis Hamikdah, which explains his presence in Paras during the story of Purim.
Ezra himself, the author of Sefer Ezra, and the most important leader of that era, was not included in the list of Jews who first heeded the call to ascend to Yerushalayim and rebuild the Beis Hamikdash. Where was he? The Gemara tells us that Ezra remained in Bavel to continue to learn under his teacher, the navi Baruch ben Neriah, who was too old and weak to undertake the trip to Eretz Yisrael. Ezra's decision to choose Torah learning over the construction of the Beis Hamikdash was symbolic of a new era in Jewish history.
The Gemara says that if Moshe Rabbeinu had not lived prior to Ezra, the Torah could have been transmitted through Ezra (Sanhedrin 21b). However, Ezra transmitted the Torah in his era - the Torah shebe'al peh. It was during this period that the Torah shebe'al peh and Torah sages emerged as the dominant spiritual force of Yiddishkeit.
More references:
http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/shekalim/insites/sk-dt-16.htm
http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5756/miketz.html
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Judaism, as the Torah proscribes, is strictly passed through the Mother {matrilineal descent}.
This is clearly spelled out in the Torah and only those sects which did not accept the Oral law disregard matrilineal descent.
As I stated above, in the case of Abrahams sons Isaac and Ishmael.... Ishmael was not Jewish because his mother was an Egyptian... Also the commandment which relates to intermarriage says that a child born to an Israelite man, from a non-Jewish woman, will not be considered a Jew.
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/8/Q1/
Dear Rabbi,
I recently had a conversation with a Reform acquaintance of mine who told me that they accept patrilineal descent in determining Jewishness. I know that Judaism only accepts matrilineal descent, but what are the sources on this matter so that I can be more informed at further discussions?
Dear J.,
First of all, let's explain what Judaism uses as the source for Matrilineal descent. The Mishna in Kiddushin 66b states that if a child's mother is not Jewish, then the child is "like her," (i.e., not Jewish). This Halacha is codified in the Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 8:5, without mention of any dissenting opinion. No source in the Torah teaches otherwise, and this question has never been raised in any classical Halachic text. It is an obvious and accepted axiom given to us at Sinai.
What happened in the Reform movement? For reasons know to them, they decided to "change the rules" regarding patrilineal descent. Since they did not feel bound to the Halacha, or even the literal Written Law, the Torah, they felt justified in doing this. Since Reform Judaism "plays by different rules," it makes it difficult-if not impossible-to debate patrilineal descent with them.
Clearly, we are discussing this question based on purely Halachic considerations, and therefore our discussion is not to be confused with the more political issue of "Who is a Jew?" regarding that person's status in Israel.
Source:
* Mishna, Tractate Kiddushin page 66b
http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=318
What is the source of the law that a child is Jewish only if its mother is Jewish?
The statement that Jewish identity is determined by the mother is found in the Mishnah (Kiddushin 3:12), which says that the child of a gentile woman is like her. The Talmud derives this from the passage in Deut. 7:3-4: "Do not intermarry with [him], do not give your daughter to his son or take his daughter for your son, for he will turn your son from Me": A child born to your daughter (fathered by a non-Jew) is called "your son", but a child born to your son (by a non-Jewish mother) is not called "your son", but "her son". The Talmud is assuming here that the "he" in Deut.7:4 is your gentile son-in-law, and that "your son" whom "he" will turn away from G-d is your grandson, born to him and to your daughter. The Torah calls that grandson "your son" because he is regarded as Jewish since he had a Jewish mother. In the other case, where a Jewish man marries a gentile woman, the Torah doesn't speak about the woman's influence on her children (i.e., it doesn't say "for she will turn your son from me"), because her children are non-Jewish to begin with since their mother is non-Jewish. Apparently we are more concerned about the influence of a non-Jewish spouse on the children than about the influence of a non-Jewish spouse's parents on their children-in-law. The Talmud (Kiddushin 68b) asks how we know that these laws apply to any non-Jews, since the cited verse refers to the Canaanites. The answer given there is that "he will turn your son [away from Me]" implies that all those who might turn [sons] away are included in the prohibition.
More References:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/601092/jewish/Why-is-Jewishness-matrilineal.htm
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Regarding the Talmud...
The Talmud is considered a part of the Torah according to Orthodox Judaism. There is no separating the two. We believe that there are two parts of the Torah, both of them given over to Moses and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai. These two parts are referred to as:
Torah she'bichsav - The Written Torah (Tanach = Torah Naviim Ketuvim)
Torah Baal Peh - The Oral Torah (Talmud, Midrash, Gemara, etc.)
Now You are being inaccurate at the least. The Talmud was sealed by the Jews for hundreds of years after the Tanakh had been sealed. The Torah and the Oral Torah were brought down by God in mount Sinai to Moses. But the Talmud was written by men, while not a single letter of the Torah was ever changed from the perfect version we were given by GOD. The oral Torah was eventually written down in the form of the Talmud but clearly it is just its essence and not the original transcript from Sinai.
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Regarding the Talmud...
The Talmud is considered a part of the Torah according to Orthodox Judaism. There is no separating the two. We believe that there are two parts of the Torah, both of them given over to Moses and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai. These two parts are referred to as:
Torah she'bichsav - The Written Torah (Tanach = Torah Naviim Ketuvim)
Torah Baal Peh - The Oral Torah (Talmud, Midrash, Gemara, etc.)
Now You are being inaccurate at the least. The Talmud was sealed by the Jews for hundreds of years after the Tanakh had been sealed. The Torah and the Oral Torah were brought down by G-d in mount Sinai to Moses. But the Talmud was written by men, while not a single letter of the Torah was ever changed from the perfect version we were given by G-d. The oral Torah was eventually written down in the form of the Talmud but clearly it is just its essence and not the original transcript from Sinai.
I have been accurate according to Orthodox belief. We believe that the entire Torah, including both the Written and the Oral laws were given at Sinai. It is true that the Oral law was not written down till after the destruction of the Second Temple, but the belief is that the Talmud {including all the machlokes and details} was given at Sinai.
http://www.messiahtruth.com/orallaw.html
The oral law is quite real. It came down from Sinai with Moses. The Written Torah tells us to do things, but the Oral Torah tells us HOW to do those things.
http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/5764/behar.html
The Oral Law
"And G-d spoke to Moshe at Mt. Sinai, saying, Speak to the Children of Israel and say to them, that when they come into the land that I am giving them, they shall rest the land, a Sabbath to HaShem." [25:1-2]
The Torah is teaching the laws of Shmittah, the sabbatical of the land. Every seven years the Israelites were instructed to leave the land lying fallow for a year.
As Rashi tells us, the Medrash asks a question about the way this law is introduced. Why does it say that G-d spoke to Moshe "at Mt. Sinai" in this case? Moshe was told all the laws of the Torah at Sinai!
The Medrash explains that Shmittah is an example. Yes, it was taught with all of its generalities, specifics, and implications at Sinai -- and so was everything else. The entirety of the Oral Law was taught to Moshe on Sinai.
We know that there must be an Oral Law because of all of the gaps in our knowledge that remain after reading the Written Torah from beginning to end, from Bereishes to l'eynei kol Yisrael. The Torah introduces things as important as resting on the Sabbath, and fails to describe what that entails. It talks about "frontlets" between our eyes, gives apparently contradictory instructions, and yet expects the Jewish Nation to follow the rules -- clearly, there was more given at Sinai than just the written Word.
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http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/812102/jewish/What-is-the-Oral-Torah.htm
What is the "Oral Torah"?
By Naftali Silberberg
The Torah has two parts: The "Torah Shebichtav" (Written Law), which is composed of the twenty-four books of the Tanach, and the "Torah Sheba'al Peh" (Oral Law).
G‑d told Moses1 that he will give him "the Torah and the commandments." Why did G‑d add the word "commandments?" Are there any commandments which are not included in the Torah? This verse (amongst others) is a clear inference to the existence of the Oral Torah.
Originally the Oral Law was not transcribed. Instead it was transmitted from father to son and from teacher to disciple (thus the name "Oral" Law). Approximately 1800 years ago, Rabbi Judah the Prince concluded that because of all the travails of Exile, the Oral Law would be forgotten if it would not be recorded on paper. He, therefore, assembled the scholars of his generation and compiled the Mishnah, a (shorthanded) collection of all the oral teachings that preceded him. Since then, the Oral Law has ceased to be "oral" and as time passed more and more of the previously oral tradition was recorded.
The Oral Law consists of three components:
1. Laws Given to Moses at Sinai (Halachah L'Moshe M'Sinai):
When Moses went up to heaven to receive the Torah, G‑d gave him the Written Torah together with many instructions. These instructions are called "Halachah L'Moshe M'Sinai" (the Law that was given to Moses on Sinai). Maimonides writes that it is impossible for there to be an argument or disagreement concerning a Halachah L'Moshe M'Sinai, for the Jews who heard the instructions from Moses implemented them into their daily lives and passed it on to their children, who passed it on to their children, etc.
Some examples of Halachah L'Moshe M'Sinai are: tefillin straps must be black, a sukkah must have at least two and a half walls, and all the different Halachic measurements and sizes.
2. The Thirteen Principles of Torah Exegesis (Shlosh Esreh Middot ShehaTorah Nidreshet Bahem):
When G‑d gave the Written Law to Moses he also instructed him how one is to study and understand the Torah. Every word and letter in the Torah is exact, and many laws can be extrapolated from an extra (or missing) word or letter, or a particular sequence which the Torah chooses to use. The thirteen principles which are the keys to uncovering the secrets of the Torah are called the "Shlosh Esreh Middot ShehaTorah Nidreshet Bahem."
For instance: One of the rules is: "Anything that was included in a general statement, but was removed from the general statement in order to teach something, was not removed to teach only about itself, but to apply its teaching to the entire generality." An example for the usage of this rule is: In Exodus 35:3 the Torah says "You shall not light fire in any of your dwellings on the Shabbat day." Now, kindling a fire was already included in the general statement that prohibits work on Shabbat (Exodus 20:10). It was removed from the general rule and stated independently in this verse to teach us that it is a distinct form of work and, as such, carries a distinct penalty. Moreover, this lesson applies to each of the 39 categories of work included in the general statement. Thus, there isn't a broad category called "work," rather each type of work is to be viewed as distinct. Therefore, if someone should do several kinds of work while unaware that they are forbidden on Shabbat, he must bring a separate sin-offering to atone for each type of work that he did.
A full list of the thirteen principles can be found in the prayer-book.2
PS: I did not suggest that the Talmud was written down at the time the Tanakh was written... That I never said... I said that the Oral law was given at Sinai...
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Muman, If the Talmud was brought down along with the Torah, then why do we find there generations of sages like Hillel and Shamai and Rabbi Akiva etc. debating and discussing things.
What was given to Moshe was indeed what we call "halach lemoshe mesinai" but that is not the Talmud. The Talmud contains it in some form though. But unlike the written Torah you cannot say the oral Torah is as intact as the day it was brought down.
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Regarding the Talmud...
The Talmud is considered a part of the Torah according to Orthodox Judaism. There is no separating the two. We believe that there are two parts of the Torah, both of them given over to Moses and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai. These two parts are referred to as:
Torah she'bichsav - The Written Torah (Tanach = Torah Naviim Ketuvim)
Torah Baal Peh - The Oral Torah (Talmud, Midrash, Gemara, etc.)
Now You are being inaccurate at the least. The Talmud was sealed by the Jews for hundreds of years after the Tanakh had been sealed. The Torah and the Oral Torah were brought down by G-d in mount Sinai to Moses. But the Talmud was written by men, while not a single letter of the Torah was ever changed from the perfect version we were given by G-d. The oral Torah was eventually written down in the form of the Talmud but clearly it is just its essence and not the original transcript from Sinai.
Yeah, have to agree. Many new decisions made by the judges over time got incorporated into the corpus - and that was their job to do so, in addition to preserving what general guidelines were given over at Sinai.
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It makes zero sense to say "The Talmud" was given at Har Sinai. It simply wasn't. If it was, then there is no point to an Oral Torah. It's just two written Torahs but one is memorized instead of jotted down. That defeats the whole purpose of an oral law and oral Torah. The whole point is that the system is flexible and evolving, while on the contrary, the written Torah is "set in stone" and all the Oral Torah discussions must adhere to the precepts and boundaries set forth in the written Torah.
"The Talmud" represents a compilation of Oral Torah over many centuries and then frozen in time (the time that the Talmud was sealed - most scholars seem to agree around the early 10th century) with a set corpus put into writing. This was hundreds of years after Tanakh was written and sealed.
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It makes zero sense to say "The Talmud" was given at Har Sinai. It simply wasn't. If it was, then there is no point to an Oral Torah. It's just two written Torahs but one is memorized instead of jotted down. That defeats the whole purpose of an oral law and oral Torah. The whole point is that the system is flexible and evolving, while on the contrary, the written Torah is "set in stone" and all the Oral Torah discussions must adhere to the precepts and boundaries set forth in the written Torah.
"The Talmud" represents a compilation of Oral Torah over many centuries and then frozen in time (the time that the Talmud was sealed - most scholars seem to agree around the early 10th century) with a set corpus put into writing. This was hundreds of years after Tanakh was written and sealed.
The whole point is that the Torah is the truth, it contains everything that happened, is happening, and will happen.
There is no reason to not believe that the Talmud machlokes would be known by Moses ahead of time, as told by Hashem when he was given the Oral law.
I don't believe that there is an argument about this. I have never seen any Orthodox Rabbi say anything which contradicts this basic belief that both Torahs were given at the same time.
There is even a pasuk in the Torah which alludes to the Oral law being given at the same time. How could there not exist an Oral law at the same time as the giving of the written law? Explain to us how we should know what Tefillin are? How about Mezzuzah? There is no instruction in the written Torah concerning these commandments? Do you suggest for those centuries we just made it up as we went along, making things we though were tefillin but since the Talmud was not written they did not know? That is just ridiculous in my thinking...
The Oral law existed at the time Moses came down from Sinai. Even the different opinions of the sages were known at that time..
Here are some answers to your 'questions'...
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/beacons-on-the-talmud-sea/01.htm
Out Of The One, Many
The Talmud[1] states:
It is written:[2] "The words of the wise are like spurs, and like nails well driven in are [the words of] the masters of collections; they are given from one Shepherd...."
"The masters of collections" - these are the students of the Sages who sit in different groups and engage themselves in Torah study. Some will rule [that an object is] impure, and others will rule [that it is pure]. Some will declare [an object] unacceptable, and others will declare [it] acceptable.
If a person will ask: "How is it possible for me to study the Torah under such circumstances?" - the verse continues: "[These words] were given from one Shepherd." One G-d gave them, and one master[3] communicated them.
The concept of variety and difference within the Torah is also reflected in our Sages' account of the very source of our Torah heritage, the communication of the Oral Law to Moshe on Mount Sinai. Our Sages relate:[4]
On each law, [the Holy One, blessed be He,] would teach [Moshe] 49 perspectives [leading to the ruling that an object is] impure, and 49 perspectives [leading to the ruling that it is] pure.
Moshe exclaimed: "Master of the World, when will I be able to reach the clarification of these matters?"
The Holy One, blessed be He, told him: "Follow the majority.[5] If the majority rules that it is impure, it is impure. If the majority rules that it is pure, it is pure."
The Torah is spiritual truth, existing on a level above worldly existence.[6] And yet, it is not intended to remain on that lofty plane, but rather to descend and relate to our experience in this world. Nevertheless, because it is lofty and abstract, this process of descent leads to a variety of conceptions. As pure light takes on many colors when filtered through a prism, so too, as the Torah's truth comes in contact with material existence, different perspectives arise. For the same principle can motivate two opposite conclusions.
To cite an example: Before the Flood,[7] "G-d saw that... every impulse of the thoughts of [man's] heart was only for evil... And G-d said, 'I will obliterate mankind.' " After the Flood, when Noach offered sacrifices, G-d said:[8] "I will not continue to curse the earth, because of man, for the impulse of man's heart is evil." One factor, the yetzer hara's constant temptation of man, serves as the rationale calling for both the Flood, and for G-d's promise never to repeat such disasters.
In a similar way, each of the Tannaim and Amoraim would view the Torah's laws as they exist in their spiritual source. Nevertheless, to determine a ruling regarding a particular situation, a Sage would have to sift through the relevant legal principles and apply them to the circumstances at hand. And for every Sage, this process of analysis was guided by the thrust of his spiritual personality. As his awareness of the spiritual motivation for the law became intertwined with his appreciation of the germane factors, the Sage's decision would shape and form.
Often the decisions reached by the Sages would differ, for the processes of determination that characterized one would vary from that of the other. And with regard to these differences, it is said:[9] "These and these are the words of the living G-d." For the truth of Torah contains the potential for manifold expressions. This dictum was applied, however, only in the realm of theory. With regard to practice, the Torah tradition has always sought uniformity,[10] and when differences of opinion arise, the halachah is established according to the majority.[11]
Introspection And Outreach
The above concepts apply not only with regard to the Oral Tradition as a whole, but with regard to particular phases in its transmission. For example, Hillel and Shammai received the Oral Tradition from the same masters, Shemayah and Avtalyon.[12] Nevertheless, they - and to a greater extent, their students - developed these thoughts in different directions. And thus throughout the Talmud, we find differences of opinion between the School of Shammai and the School of Hillel.
In most instances, the School of Hillel would rule more leniently and the School of Shammai more stringently. What was the source for these differences?[13] Hillel's approach was characterized by the attribute of Chesed, kindness, while Shammai's was distinguished by the attribute of Gevurah, might, which tends toward severity.
Gevurah has an inward thrust, as reflected in our Sages' statement:[14] "Who is a gibbor (mighty man)? One who conquers his inclination." And according to the Kabbalah, the attribute of Gevurah is identified with din, judgment. A person who tends toward Gevurah has unalterable standards of truth to which he personally endeavors to conform and which he desires to see reflected in the world at large. This is implied by the name Shammai, which relates to the Hebrew phrase:[15] hasham orchosov, "He evaluates his ways,"[16] i.e., he is constantly subjecting his conduct to rigorous introspection.
Chesed, by contrast, reflects an outward orientation. Others are one's primary concern. A person motivated by chesed extends himself and gives, following the path Hillel outlines,[17] "Loving peace and pursuing peace; loving the created beings[18] and drawing them close to the Torah." This approach also relates to Hillel's name which is associated with the phrase behilo neiro,15 "When His candle shined forth."[19] For this approach emphasizes disseminating light, with the expectation that it will effortlessly cause darkness to shrink. And as light diffuses into wider peripheries, it attracts people and motivates them to change.
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It makes zero sense to say "The Talmud" was given at Har Sinai. It simply wasn't. If it was, then there is no point to an Oral Torah. It's just two written Torahs but one is memorized instead of jotted down. That defeats the whole purpose of an oral law and oral Torah. The whole point is that the system is flexible and evolving, while on the contrary, the written Torah is "set in stone" and all the Oral Torah discussions must adhere to the precepts and boundaries set forth in the written Torah.
"The Talmud" represents a compilation of Oral Torah over many centuries and then frozen in time (the time that the Talmud was sealed - most scholars seem to agree around the early 10th century) with a set corpus put into writing. This was hundreds of years after Tanakh was written and sealed.
I think you managed to say it better than I did.
Muman, Judaism is a sensible religion. Go and ask rabbis and see what they tell you. Sure Rabbis would all tell you that the oral Torah was given in Sinai. But they won't just say that the Talmud is (as in exactly equal to) the oral Torah.
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It makes zero sense to say "The Talmud" was given at Har Sinai. It simply wasn't. If it was, then there is no point to an Oral Torah. It's just two written Torahs but one is memorized instead of jotted down. That defeats the whole purpose of an oral law and oral Torah. The whole point is that the system is flexible and evolving, while on the contrary, the written Torah is "set in stone" and all the Oral Torah discussions must adhere to the precepts and boundaries set forth in the written Torah.
"The Talmud" represents a compilation of Oral Torah over many centuries and then frozen in time (the time that the Talmud was sealed - most scholars seem to agree around the early 10th century) with a set corpus put into writing. This was hundreds of years after Tanakh was written and sealed.
I think you managed to say it better than I did.
Muman, Judaism is a sensible religion. Go and ask rabbis and see what they tell you. Sure Rabbis would all tell you that the oral Torah was given in Sinai. But they won't just say that the Talmud is (as in exactly equal to) the oral Torah.
Are you implying that what I am saying is not sensible? That is humorous...
I have not seen a single Rabbi claim what you are. I have found so many sources which repeat, over and over again, the concept that Oral Law was given at Sinai. And the Talmud is the compilation of the Oral Law which was written down after the 2nd Temple was destroyed.
I will bring one more source {although I doubt you will even read it} which supports what I am saying... I don't know why you {or anyone} would argue with such a basic concept as this {other than to be contradictory}
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/190,104/What-are-the-Mishnah-and-Talmud.html
What are the Mishnah and Talmud?
A. The Torah--i.e. the Five Books of Moses--is very vague. For instance, the Torah says not to “work” on Shabbat. But what’s “work?” To answer this and many other questions (like how to slaughter an animal in the kosher way, what tefillin are), G-d explained the entire Torah to Moses. Moses then explained the entire Torah to the people orally. This explanation is therefore called the Oral Torah, since it was transmitted by word of mouth and was not written down.
B. The Oral Torah was taught mouth-to-ear, mouth-to-ear, through the generations until the 2nd Century C.E., at which point the sages felt that it would be forgotten unless it was written down. Rabbi Judah the Prince indeed went ahead and compiled the basics into a 63 volume document called the Mishnah. The Mishnah was taught in schools through the generations, with an accompanying oral explanation. In the 5th Century C.E., it became too vast and confusing for people to understand, and the oral explanation was written down in a massive collection that dwarfs the Mishnah. This explanation is known as the Gemara, and together they - the Mishnah with its Gemara commentary - form the Talmud.
C. The 63 volumes of the Mishnah are divided into six sections, each one on a different area of Jewish life: Agriculture, Shabbat and Holidays, Family Relations, Civil Law, Temple Sacrifices and Ritual Purity. Thirty eight volumes of the Mishnah have accompanying Gemara commentary, making them Talmudic Tractates. The Talmud thus consists of huge books crammed with densely packed Aramaic, an ancient Semitic language that uses the Hebrew alphabet. The Talmud follows the six-section structure of the Mishnah.
How do I study Talmud?
1. Study with a partner or with a class
OK, you’ve decided to study Talmud on your own, with your brand-new English-language version. Now, you’re cruising through the third page, and you get stuck—something doesn’t make sense. The commentaries help, but not completely—what do you do? To preempt this problem, The Rabbis instituted what might be called the “buddy system”—always studying Torah, and particularly the intricate, challenging Talmud—with a partner. Better yet, go to a Talmud class—you’ll learn even more and meet people who share your avid interest in Talmud, too. Chances are your local Chabad center offers one.
2. Remember what you’re doing
The Talmud is not just an engrossing exposition of Jewish law and lore—it’s part and parcel of the Torah. In other words, it’s not just another book—it’s a Jewish book. When you study Talmud, remember that you’re studying Torah, Divine wisdom.
PS: BTW all my Rabbis (I know 3 Chabad & 2 Modern Orthodox) tell me that the Talmud is a part of the Torah, the Oral tradition...
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http://www.jewishamerica.com/ja/timeline/torahs2.cfm
The Two Torahs
The Written Torah consists of the Five Books Of Moses. They are directly transmitted letter for letter to Moses from G-d.
Additional scriptures are authored by the Prophets during the thousand years that follow Sinai. The collection of these works becomes known as the Bible. The Biblical period ends some three-hundred years before the Common Era, when the Men Of The Great Assembly decree that there are to be no more additions.[Oral & Written Torah]
The Oral Torah, also transmitted to Moses on Sinai, defines and elaborates upon the behavior and values that the Written Torah prescribes. It provides keys and approaches with which one can read and understand the Written Torah, to be able to derive the expected behavior and values. This capability of derivation provides the Oral Torah with its infinite dimension.
The Written and Oral Torahs together provide Mankind with a set of formal and detailed instructions for living.
Without the Oral Torah, the Written Torah will be misunderstood and thereby misused, distorted by individuals for personal advantage or out of sheer ignorance.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/torah.htm#Talmud
Talmud
In addition to the written scriptures we have an "Oral Torah", a tradition explaining what the Five Books of Moses mean and how to interpret them and apply the Laws. Orthodox Jews believe G-d taught the Oral Torah to Moses, and he taught it to others, and others taught it to others down to the present day. This tradition was maintained in oral form only until about the 2d century C.E., when much of the oral law was compiled and written down in a document called the Mishnah.
Over the next few centuries, authoritative commentaries elaborating on the Mishnah and recording the rest of the oral law were written down in Israel and Babylon. These additional commentaries are known as the Tosefta, Mekhileta, Sifra, Sifre, Jerusalem Talmud, and Babylonian Talmud. The last was completed at about 500 C.E.
The two largest works are the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud. The Babylonian one is more comprehensive, and is the one most people mean when they refer to The Talmud.
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Maybe this discussion will explain more...
http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/whynotwritten.html
Why Did Hashem Create an Oral Law?
Question: If there is an Oral Law, why didn't Hashem or Moses write it down? What benefit could there be in the details of the Law being Oral?
Answer: There are actually many reasons why the Torah needs an oral component. I will, Hashem willing, try to explain a few in this article.
The Rabbis make a very interesting statement in the Midrash Rabbah (sermons of the Rabbis taken from the Oral Tradition, and later collected and published by a student of Rabbi Judah the Prince, Rabbi Oshayah, circa 200 C.E.). The Midrash is discussing some of the deeper meanings of the sacrificial offerings brought by the leaders of the Tribes of Israel when the Holy Tabernacle was built and dedicated:
"And for the peace sacrifice, two oxen..." Because Hashem gave Israel two Torahs: The Written Torah and the Oral Torah. He gave them the Written Torah that has the 613 Commandments, to fill them up with merits and to purify them, as it says "Hashem wants His righteous people, so He increased and strengthened the Torah."
He gave them the Oral Torah so that they would, by the Oral Torah, be distinct from all other nations. For this reason it was not given in writing, so that the Gentiles could not forge it or claim it for their own, and then claim that they are the true Israel, as they did with the Written Torah.
-- Midrash Bamidbar Rabbah 14:10, s.v. "On the Eleventh Day"
The Oral Torah is our unique property, our special possession, our glory and source of joy. It is what makes us what we are, and enables us to fulfill Hashem's will.
The Torah is more vast than most people imagine. In the Book of Job, Tzofer Hana'amasi (one of Job's friends) tells us about the wisdom of Hashem, the Torah, that "Its measurement is longer than the land, and wider than the sea" (Job 11:9). But if you unroll a copy of every Book of the Torah and stretch them out end to end, starting from the Five Books of Moses until Malachi, the entire length is not likely to reach even one mile. Tzofer is not referring to the Books of the Written Torah, which have a specific limit, but to the wisdom of Hashem as manifest in the Oral Torah, and as alluded to in the Written Torah.
Similarly, we find in the Midrash as follows:
May the Name of the King of all emperors be blessed, for having chosen Israel from all the seventy nations, as it says, "For Hashem's portion is His nation, Jacob is the essence of His inheritance" (Deut. 32:9). And He gave us the Written Torah that contains hidden and concealed allusions, and He explained them in the Oral Torah, and revealed them to Israel.
Moreover, the Written Torah has the general rules, and the Oral Torah has the details. The Oral Torah is vast, and the Written Torah is small. Concerning the Oral Torah, it says, "Its measurement is longer than the land, and wider than the sea." ....
For Hashem ratified His pledge with Israel only because of the Oral Torah, as it says: "Through these words I have set forth my pledge with you..." The actual words used by the Torah there mean, literally, "By the mouth of these words I have set forth my pledge with you...." (Exodus 34:27) [This is the literal translation]. The Torah means "through these words," but instead uses the phrase "By the mouth of these words...."
The Torah could have said, "Because of these words...." or "For the sake of these words...." or "For these words..." or "through these words...", but instead the Torah used the phrase "By the mouth of these words...." This refers to the Oral Torah, hence the use of the phrase "by the mouth of these words..."
Only those who love Hashem with all their hearts, all their souls, and all their might, study the Oral Torah.
-- Midrash Tanchumah, Noach 3:3, s.v. These are the Chronicles
The Talmud is not the entire Oral Torah. The Talmud is the basic skeleton of the Oral Torah, as much as was absolutely necessary for the preservation of the Torah. But it is by far not the entire Oral Torah. That wouldn't be possible.
The Oral Torah is limitless. This is not hyperbole, or exaggeration, in any way. I mean this precisely and literally. The greatness of the Oral Torah is that no matter how much is taught, no matter how much is learned, there is always more true Torah to be discovered. Hashem created the Torah that way. The Talmud tells us, "Every Torah teaching that any conscientious Torah student is destined to extrapolate was already taught to Moses at Mount Sinai" (Midrash Rabbah: Leviticus 22:1; ibid. Eccl. 1:2 and 5:2). (This does not mean, by the way, that every interpretation anyone makes up is true. See my article on "The Oral Law and Our Own Opinions.")
And absolutely every single element of the Oral Torah is alluded to in the Written Torah. This adds yet another dimension to the study, and helps make the learning even more glorious and meaningful.
Incidentally, this is why the Written Torah had to be written in Hebrew, the language that Hashem created specifically for that purpose.
The Oral Torah contains the details of the general Laws found in the Written Torah. Without those details, we could never fulfill the Laws. For example, the Torah commands the Jewish Supreme Court to declare when a new month has begun, and the Oral Torah gives us all the necessary details. We find, therefore, that the Talmud (Rosh Hashonoh 25b) tells us that the time between each appearance of a new moon can be no less than 29.53059 days. This information, reported Rabbi Gamliel in the Talmud, is part of the Oral Torah.
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Regarding the Talmud...
The Talmud is considered a part of the Torah according to Orthodox Judaism. There is no separating the two. We believe that there are two parts of the Torah, both of them given over to Moses and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai. These two parts are referred to as:
Torah she'bichsav - The Written Torah (Tanach = Torah Naviim Ketuvim)
Torah Baal Peh - The Oral Torah (Talmud, Midrash, Gemara, etc.)
Now You are being inaccurate at the least. The Talmud was sealed by the Jews for hundreds of years after the Tanakh had been sealed. The Torah and the Oral Torah were brought down by G-d in mount Sinai to Moses. But the Talmud was written by men, while not a single letter of the Torah was ever changed from the perfect version we were given by G-d. The oral Torah was eventually written down in the form of the Talmud but clearly it is just its essence and not the original transcript from Sinai.
I have been accurate according to Orthodox belief. We believe that the entire Torah, including both the Written and the Oral laws were given at Sinai. It is true that the Oral law was not written down till after the destruction of the Second Temple, but the belief is that the Talmud {including all the machlokes and details} was given at Sinai.
No, that's a belief, not the belief.
Some might claim that but it sounds like they are confused and misunderstand the actual argument. Certainly if that even is an actual opinion in the way you formulated it (even though I doubt that), it's not the only one.
Btw, Rambam describes the halachic category "Torah l'Moshe M'Sinai" as defining any subject in which there is no machloketh among chazal in the Talmud. So how can the instances of machloketh be from Sinai? According to Rambam, a machloketh is precisely the indication that something is not from Sinai but derived later!
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It makes zero sense to say "The Talmud" was given at Har Sinai. It simply wasn't. If it was, then there is no point to an Oral Torah. It's just two written Torahs but one is memorized instead of jotted down. That defeats the whole purpose of an oral law and oral Torah. The whole point is that the system is flexible and evolving, while on the contrary, the written Torah is "set in stone" and all the Oral Torah discussions must adhere to the precepts and boundaries set forth in the written Torah.
"The Talmud" represents a compilation of Oral Torah over many centuries and then frozen in time (the time that the Talmud was sealed - most scholars seem to agree around the early 10th century) with a set corpus put into writing. This was hundreds of years after Tanakh was written and sealed.
The whole point is that the Torah is the truth, it contains everything that happened, is happening, and will happen.
There is no reason to not believe that the Talmud machlokes would be known by Moses ahead of time, as told by Hashem when he was given the Oral law.
Actually, I think there is plenty of reason to believe that.
I don't believe that there is an argument about this.
You're mistaken.
I have never seen any Orthodox Rabbi say anything which contradicts this basic belief that both Torahs were given at the same time.
As Zelhar pointed out in a post before this, you are conflating Oral Torah with The Talmud. Oral Torah is a much wider branch, while The Talmud is a precise genre (within Oral Torah) that came to be canonized.
There is even a pasuk in the Torah which alludes to the Oral law being given at the same time.
Again, no one is arguing against that.
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Regarding the Talmud...
The Talmud is considered a part of the Torah according to Orthodox Judaism. There is no separating the two. We believe that there are two parts of the Torah, both of them given over to Moses and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai. These two parts are referred to as:
Torah she'bichsav - The Written Torah (Tanach = Torah Naviim Ketuvim)
Torah Baal Peh - The Oral Torah (Talmud, Midrash, Gemara, etc.)
Now You are being inaccurate at the least. The Talmud was sealed by the Jews for hundreds of years after the Tanakh had been sealed. The Torah and the Oral Torah were brought down by G-d in mount Sinai to Moses. But the Talmud was written by men, while not a single letter of the Torah was ever changed from the perfect version we were given by G-d. The oral Torah was eventually written down in the form of the Talmud but clearly it is just its essence and not the original transcript from Sinai.
I have been accurate according to Orthodox belief. We believe that the entire Torah, including both the Written and the Oral laws were given at Sinai. It is true that the Oral law was not written down till after the destruction of the Second Temple, but the belief is that the Talmud {including all the machlokes and details} was given at Sinai.
No, that's a belief, not the belief.
Some might claim that but it sounds like they are confused and misunderstand the actual argument. Certainly if that even is an actual opinion in the way you formulated it (even though I doubt that), it's not the only one.
Btw, Rambam describes the halachic category "Torah l'Moshe M'Sinai" as defining any subject in which there is no machloketh among chazal in the Talmud. So how can the instances of machloketh be from Sinai? According to Rambam, a machloketh is precisely the indication that something is not from Sinai but derived later!
KWRBT,
Please refer to 'Midrash Rabbah : Leviticus 22:1
The Talmud tells us, "Every Torah teaching that any conscientious Torah student is destined to extrapolate was already taught to Moses at Mount Sinai" (Midrash Rabbah: Leviticus 22:1; ibid. Eccl. 1:2 and 5:2).
I never argued that there is only one understanding of Torah... But it seems that there is good reason to believe that the Oral Tradition was given at Sinai. Why do you not believe it?
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http://www.jewishamerica.com/ja/features/Thunder.cfm
WHAT DID MOSHE DO ON SINAI FOR 40 DAYS AND NIGHTS ? ? ?
He received the Torah on Sinai. Now this can’t be the Written Torah, as we know it as the Five Books of Moses, since we know that some mitzvos, like Shabbos, were given prior to Sinai, and most were recorded after the event at Sinai. There is a debate in the Talmud as to whether the Torah was written all at one time by Moshe, or section by section throughout the 40 year trek through the desert.
But one thing is certain that the text of the Written Law was not given on Sinai, with the exception of the Ten Commandments, which were oral and which were then given to Moshe engraved by Hashem in stone. So, the question: What was given to Moshe on Sinai during those 40 days?
Moshe received the Oral Law on Sinai. The Oral Law is the basis for the Written Law. Without the Oral Law, the Written Law, that what we all see in the Hold Ark in the synagogue, is meaningless. The Written Law is merely a set of cryptic notes, symbols, shorthand abreviations for a more expansive, fundamental and complete sytem of a blueprint for the world and life.
Let me illustrate. The basis for our liberty in these United States is the Constitution. Can a short concise document like the Constitution contain all the laws that cover every facet of a nation’s life? It is absurd to think so. It is a compendium of all the values upon which our freedoms and rights are built. It abstracts the values of the Torah, the Magna Carta, and the vision of our founding Fathers. It is a blueprint which guides the designers and the builders of the nation in each generation.
In effect, then, the Written Torah is an abstract of a fuller expanded gift that Hashem gave Israel, the Torah sh’b’al Peh, the Oral Law. The Oral Law is the underpinnings of the Written Law and by its very nature of being a Weltanschaung, it could not be frozen in stone or parchment.
The Written Law can understood ONLY in conjunction with the Oral Law.
The Torah says:
‘V’za-vach-ta ka-ahser tsee-vee-see-cha’
‘You shall slaughter <the animal> as I commanded you’.
Nowhere in the Torah do we find G-d commanding Moshe about the laws of Schita (slaughter).
The Torah says:
‘Hachodesh Ha-zeh La-chem rosh cha-da-shim’
‘This month (Nissan) is the head of all the months’
When G-d uses the term ‘zeh’, this....which is a demonstrative word, what does he refer to? How did Moshe know the basis for the calculation of the month? What determined it? It is nowhere written in the Torah.
The Torah says:
‘Ayin ta-chas ayin. Shayne ta-chas shayne’
‘An eye for an eye. a tooth for a tooth’
Torah Law at ALL TIMES meant that as monetary compensation; _never_ literally. Where can see find that in the written Torah? It’s not there.
The Torah says:
‘Seven days shall you dwell in a succah’
Where is the source of how to build the succah, it’s height, its size, the acceptable materials that may be used and the definition of the essential parts of the succah? The Written Torah is silent on all this, and yet every Jew knows what a succah should look like.
The Torah says:
‘And you shall take for yourselves the fruit of a beautiful tree"
What fruit does the Torah mean? Where is there any reference in the Torah to the citron, the Esrog? There is none, and yet Jews the world over know what an esrog is!
It is the Torah sh’b’al Peh, the Oral Torah that supplies the details. These are but a few examples of why, without the Oral Law, the Written Torah has no meaning.
Moshe spent those 40 days and nights receiving the Oral Law, in its entirety, with all the details and nuances, so that in future generations, should there be an outstanding scholar who might extrapolate and infer from what he has received by the Messorah, (the transmission of the Torah), .....that, too, was what Moshe learned on Sinai from G-d.
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Muman, I believe you are confused. The sources say that the Oral Torah was given at Sinai. And that's true. But Oral Torah as a genre includes the ability to expand and derive further insights through interpretation of the verses in written Torah. In the early days this was done via drashoth. These drashoth increased in number and developed in complexity over time. Complicated cases presented themselves (or were thought up) in time, that may not have been mentioned in written Torah. The elders and sages had the job to explicate and examine such case studies to determine the law in every situation. This body grew over time.
In time, the rules for making drashoth became more and more formalized and clearly defined. Many sugiyoth in Talmud refer to this process (foremost example is Hillel and the Bnay Beseira discussion of bringing korban pesah when it falls out on Shabbath). After that point, soon the drashoth were "sealed" as it were, with the compilation of the mishnayoth. The mishnayoth were teachings based on these drashoth of the verses. From that point forward it was decided that further analysis of Jewish law and further derivations in terms of law would be made only by interpreting the corpus of Mishnayoth, rather than generating new mishnayoth through drasha, as was done previously. It was Rebbe Yehuda Hanassi who instituted this as the process known as Gemara. Now interpretation occurred through analysis of the mishnayoth. And so the system evolved until finally there was a Talmud. Eventually the Talmud added layers of discussion (gemara was fleshed out and elaborated) until an authoritative corpus was established that gave an 'official' interpretation of mishnayoth (although of course there are disagreements among the rabbis on how to interpret what exactly are the Talmud's conclusions!), and finally it was written down and sealed after additions by the Savoraim based on their discussions in the yeshivas (they worked out the svaras, hence their name), and the occasional addition here or there by the gaonim. That is the Talmud. Talmud was not given at Har Sinai, it was "given" by the Saboraim, but it is the formalization and crystallization of the Oral Torah process which evolved and developed over many generations but originated with Sinai where the elders and sages were instructed to teach the people.
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Regarding the Talmud...
The Talmud is considered a part of the Torah according to Orthodox Judaism. There is no separating the two. We believe that there are two parts of the Torah, both of them given over to Moses and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai. These two parts are referred to as:
Torah she'bichsav - The Written Torah (Tanach = Torah Naviim Ketuvim)
Torah Baal Peh - The Oral Torah (Talmud, Midrash, Gemara, etc.)
Now You are being inaccurate at the least. The Talmud was sealed by the Jews for hundreds of years after the Tanakh had been sealed. The Torah and the Oral Torah were brought down by G-d in mount Sinai to Moses. But the Talmud was written by men, while not a single letter of the Torah was ever changed from the perfect version we were given by G-d. The oral Torah was eventually written down in the form of the Talmud but clearly it is just its essence and not the original transcript from Sinai.
I have been accurate according to Orthodox belief. We believe that the entire Torah, including both the Written and the Oral laws were given at Sinai. It is true that the Oral law was not written down till after the destruction of the Second Temple, but the belief is that the Talmud {including all the machlokes and details} was given at Sinai.
No, that's a belief, not the belief.
Some might claim that but it sounds like they are confused and misunderstand the actual argument. Certainly if that even is an actual opinion in the way you formulated it (even though I doubt that), it's not the only one.
Btw, Rambam describes the halachic category "Torah l'Moshe M'Sinai" as defining any subject in which there is no machloketh among chazal in the Talmud. So how can the instances of machloketh be from Sinai? According to Rambam, a machloketh is precisely the indication that something is not from Sinai but derived later!
KWRBT,
Please refer to 'Midrash Rabbah : Leviticus 22:1
I don't know why you are referring me to a midrash agadda. But I am willing to bet that it is the source which says something along the lines that every single detail and every opinion was given to Moshe rabbenu on har sinai (but I still think you are misinterpreting that source with the way you summarize it and conclude from it nonetheless!) You are confusing this agada concept with historical reality. Furthermore, I assure you that Rambam read and understood that agada, and yet he said what I referred to above. Do you wish to reckon with it?
The Talmud tells us, "Every Torah teaching that any conscientious Torah student is destined to extrapolate was already taught to Moses at Mount Sinai" (Midrash Rabbah: Leviticus 22:1; ibid. Eccl. 1:2 and 5:2).
Ok, so my bet was right.
First off, do you understand that this is a midrash?
Second, do you not see that there could be many ways to interpret this? I think the way you are interpreting it is false.
I never argued that there is only one understanding of Torah... But it seems that there is good reason to believe that the Oral Tradition was given at Sinai. Why do you not believe it?
Good grief, you are frustrating. I never argued against the idea of Oral Tradition given at Sinai. I argued against the Talmud given at Sinai!
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So will you consider the point I made citing the Rambam's explanation of "halacha le'moshe misinai?"
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So will you consider the point I made citing the Rambam's explanation of "halacha le'moshe misinai?"
Yes, I am considering it..
Let me clearly say that my level of understanding is still relatively low... But I do have a good memory and I do study a lot..
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So, given the process I described above, which manifested itself in reality over many many years, the view presented in that midrash rabba agada is some type of mystical view to think that Moshe was presented with a vision of all this at sinai, but certainly it nowhere says that the Jewish people were told all of these things.
Do you see any indication, even within that midrash, that Moshe SHARED every view and opinion, which this midrash claims he was shown, with the people at that time? NO. It's a mystical way of saying that there was an element of hashgacha pratit behind the historical development of Oral Torah. THAT is what that midrash means. It's all rooted in Sinai and all rooted in Moshe rabenu. It's stamping the Talmud with authenticity. It is not saying the Talmud was physically presented at Sinai.
Often times with agada, the sentiment behind it is more important than the detail which is not necessarily meant to be "factually correct" or "historically correct" but is speaking in parable/metaphor.
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Now, I am a Christian, so do not take this as offensive. It seems to me that it is absurd to say that the Oral Torah is the same kind of law as the Written Torah. If it were, it would have been written down back then. There's no point in leaving something to oral tradition and human memory when it can be written indelibly on parchment/papyrus/stone. There must be something different about it.
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Now, I am a Christian, so do not take this as offensive. It seems to me that it is absurd to say that the Oral Torah is the same kind of law as the Written Torah. If it were, it would have been written down back then. There's no point in leaving something to oral tradition and human memory when it can be written indelibly on parchment/papyrus/stone. There must be something different about it.
True, there is something different. That difference is the whole point of Oral Torah, as opposed to the concept of Written Torah. It was meant to be flexible and allow the application of written Torah to new realities and situations that would present themselves and require adaptation. Since the written Torah is not entirely explicit about every single matter, this allows a range of flexibility and is where the oral Torah comes in to ensure that a pragmatic approach is selected and implemented by the group of sages whose responsibility it is to collectively teach the people, judge the cases, and spread the Torah wisdom since they are the experts in wisdom and devote themselves to developing their Torah knowledge.
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Btw, Sox7, you can see from all this that argument is a key part of Jewish culture. ;D
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I found this discussion relevant to this thread:
http://www.pardes.org.il/online_learning/candy_questions/#oral
Oral Torah: Out of Whose mouth?
Was the Oral Law given to Moshe at Sinai?
This Essay was culled from and inspired by the Pardes 2001 "Philosophy of Halacha" class taught by Rabbi Levi Cooper..
Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon (Rambam 1138-1204) highlights the importance of establishing the "entire" Torah as divinely transmitted in his "Thirteen Principles of Faith."
Principle number eight of the Rambam's list is paraphrased as follows: I believe with a complete faith that all of the Torah that we now have in our hands is that which was given to Moses, our teacher, peace be upon him. Establishing this principle does not answer but rather further emphasizes the importance of delving into the question of whether or not Moses received the Oral Torah as well as the written at Sinai. What does Rambam mean by the "entire" Torah?
There are many possibilities to explore in the realm of attempting to discern Rambam's definition of "entire." A few examples include:
1. The entire Oral Torah - as encountered by all future generations - was given at Sinai
2. Only a portion of the Oral Torah was given at Sinai, while a portion of Oral Toah was developed later in history.
3. Moses received all Oral Torah on Sinai, some of which was forgotten in ensuing generations, this lost transmission was later reconstructed.
4. Moses viewed all of the Oral Torah, but was not charged with transmitting its entirety.
5. Moses received all of Oral Torah and Written Torah; the Oral Torah was received in potential but not in actuality. The tools but not the text comprise the "entire" Torah received at Sinai (hence the potential for innovation was also possibly given at Sinai).
The First Chapter of Pirkei Avot (Ethics of Our Fathers, 1:1) says: "Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Yehoshua, Yehoshua to the Elders, the Elders to the Prophets, the Prophets to the Men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: be deliberate in judgement, develop many students and make a fence around Torah."
Moses received the Torah at Sinai, Was it both the Written and the Oral Torah? How much of the Torah? In generalities or in detail? Moses to Yehoshua, How much of what Moses learned did he transmit and in what detail? Yehoshua to the Elders, How much did he transmit and how much did he possibly forget? The Elders to the Prophets, How much did they forget? How much did they re-reveal? The Prophets to the Men of the Great Assembly, How much did the Prophets forget? How much did the Prophets re-reveal? They said three things: be deliberate in judgement, develop many disciples and make a fence around Torah. Are these three sayings new teachings adding to knowledge transmitted or does this mean the Great Assembly was re-establishing three lost precepts?
The experience of exploring the question of what Moses did or did not receive at Sinai joins us, in the modern age, to the chain of transmission or "mesorah."