JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dr. Dan on December 20, 2010, 02:18:27 PM
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It hasn't really hit me yet...but :'(
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Dr. Dan I share your pain. My dog that I had for 14 years passed away this year. :'(
I think you should record the last days with your dog on camera so you won't forget him/her. It cheers me up to watch them of hr sometimes.
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Dr. Dan I share your pain. My dog that I had for 14 years passed away this year. :'(
I think you should record the last days with your dog on camera so you won't forget him/her. It cheers me up to watch them of hr sometimes.
Just found out it was nystigmus, of which I have no clue what that is. My brother is watching her so he'll give me a heads up. I do have a youtube video of her that I have posted in the past..I'll post it here....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYdRZmqoaR0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhxWJSO-gzw
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Sorry Dr. Dan, it can a very difficult experience to lose a beloved dog, I wish you comfort through the pain.
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You should spend time with your pet... I am trying to spend as much time with my elderly cat who I think may not last very much longer...
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Pray to God that she get's eternal life.
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Pray to G-d that she get's eternal life.
I understand the sentiment, and as a lifelong pet owner I feel that way from time to time... But Jewish thought is that only Humans have an eternal soul... Animals do not possess the divine soul which Hashem breathes into the human when life begins...
I know this may spark some debate but I have come to accept this... And I also harbor the belief that Gilguls can occupy animal bodies...
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/215,273/Can-an-animal-have-a-human-soul.html
Can an animal have a human soul?
Not exactly, but there is a concept of "Gilgul". It is possible that the soul of a human being comes down to this world in the body of an animal in order to reach its perfection. The animal is driven by a standard animal soul, and the human soul is imprisoned within it, with very little opportunity to express itself. When the animal dies, it is not the soul of the animal that goes to heaven, but rather the soul of the human being that was in the animal.
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meh. It doesn't really matter because animals aren't evil nor do they sin. Animals aren't righteous either. They don't have free will.
Animals and pets are here on earth for us humans to be soothed by them. Animals and pets are on this earth for us to take care of them.
And it's ok. Everything and everybody dies. Human beings go to their domain and animals will go to their's whatever it might be.
Pray to G-d that she get's eternal life.
I understand the sentiment, and as a lifelong pet owner I feel that way from time to time... But Jewish thought is that only Humans have an eternal soul... Animals do not possess the divine soul which Hashem breathes into the human when life begins...
I know this may spark some debate but I have come to accept this... And I also harbor the belief that Gilguls can occupy animal bodies...
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/215,273/Can-an-animal-have-a-human-soul.html
Can an animal have a human soul?
Not exactly, but there is a concept of "Gilgul". It is possible that the soul of a human being comes down to this world in the body of an animal in order to reach its perfection. The animal is driven by a standard animal soul, and the human soul is imprisoned within it, with very little opportunity to express itself. When the animal dies, it is not the soul of the animal that goes to heaven, but rather the soul of the human being that was in the animal.
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Some of my cats had very obvious souls and others had less obvious traits which could be called a soul. I miss every one of my cats { I have had approximately 10 indoor cats over 20 years }...
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We are so sorry to hear this Dr. Dan.
We have watched the videos of Cookie many times.
We just love her. She is so smart.
We will be praying for her and for you.
Bullcat and Bullcat jr.
Bullcat jr. just lost her hamster, named Pudding.
She know you must be feeling very sad.
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Muman: Is there an actual Torah verse that says that?
Dr. Dan: I am extremely sorry. Please provide more details. Nystagmus is a symptom, not a disease unto itself.
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I saw the youtube videos - Cookie is a wonderful dog - you are very lucky that she was a part of your life. I am a life-long dog owner and can really understand what you are going through. So sorry to hear about this imminent loss...
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Muman: Is there an actual Torah verse that says that?
Dr. Dan: I am extremely sorry. Please provide more details. Nystagmus is a symptom, not a disease unto itself.
I don't know what you are asking? Are you interested in whether the Torah discusses Gilgul? Or whether animals have souls?
Clarify your question and I will attempt to answer your question...
Here is a little discussion of the Jewish concept of Gilgul {and it discusses Gilgul as a dog}..
http://www.hasidicstories.com/Articles/Themes_In_Hasidic_Stories/nigal_2transf.html
http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380816/jewish/2nd-Gilgul-Is-Like-1st-41.htm
Aish.com recently had an article on this concept @ http://www.aish.com/atr/84011177.html & http://www.aish.com/jl/l/a/48943926.html
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OK what I meant is what Torah verse states that there is no eternal component to animals. The Tanach implies otherwise (Isaiah 65:25). Doesn't that refer to the world to come?
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OK what I meant is what Torah verse states that there is no eternal component to animals. The Tanach implies otherwise (Isaiah 65:25). Doesn't that refer to the world to come?
Here is Isaiah 65:25... It indeed is the vision of the messianic times, when the preditor and the prey will live in peace. I have never heard that this involves gan eden {heaven} for the animals.
25. A wolf and a lamb shall graze together, and a lion, like cattle, shall eat straw, and a serpent-dust shall be his food; they shall neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mount," says the Lord.
Though it appears a Rabbi at Chabad has the same opinion as you expressed:
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/277,1981331/Pet-Afterlife.html
Question:
My dog, who was a part of my life since my 9th birthday, has just died. He was sixteen years old and he brought so much happiness to my family. I am so sad but I thank G-d for all those years of happiness we had together. What happens to his soul now? Who’s taking care of him?
Answer:
I am sorry to hear about your loss, and at the same time I am very impressed with your positive attitude and memories of the past.
A soul is a spiritual force/energy that sustains the body. When it departs the body it goes back to its original source of spiritual energy. Thus after death the totality of the animal is at rest, as the body lies in peace, and the soul is reunited with its source.
You can continue his good effects by keeping the family happy and bringing happiness to others. You can also pray for the day when Moshiach will come and the “wolf will lay with lamb” – all animals, and all people, will get along in peace and harmony.
But the Rabbi at Ohr Sameach states similar to my understanding here @ http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/235/Q2/
John D. Stone wrote:
Dear Rabbi,
Someone tried to take our dog from our locked and alarmed car in a supermarket parking lot. She escaped and valiantly searched for her home for a week. I was five minutes from getting her at the latest sighting. Before I could get there she was hit and killed by a car. I know my life was blessed greatly by having Peggy as a companion for 61 months. I feel so helpless now, not only that she is gone, but that her last week searching for me was filled with hardship - longing for me and her home, suffering 12 degree (F) nights, snow and rain. She was the epitome of unconditional love, and this has taught me a great deal. Please advise me what will happen to Peggy and will we be reunited eventually?
Dear John D. Stone,
Your sorrow is evident from your message. The Torah commands many laws of mercy and kindness towards animals to nurture this virtuous feeling of compassion. For example, you may not eat a meal before feeding your animal, as this is an act of neglect and cruelty. The Torah also teaches us to have gratitude towards animals
However, animals lack a neshamah (a certain level of soul) so they have no afterlife existence. At death their ruach (a lower level of soul) expires.
By the great lesson of sincerity which Peggy has taught you, I think she has fulfilled her purpose of creation, if only we could apply this virtue in our own lives toward our fellow humans.
Sources:
* Shemot 22:30 and Rashi
* Ecclesiastes 3:21
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Nystagmus is a sympton of neurological disease. It's a cranial nerve palsy. What's wrong with your cat? This is a sx. that is not fatal unto itself. I am sorry about the news though. Animals are wonderful.
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After doing a little more research it seems that there is the belief that animals do indeed have a soul, but not on the same level as the human soul..
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3194/jewish/What-is-a-Soul.htm
Everything Has a Soul
In truth, not just the human being, but also every created entity possesses a "soul." Animals have souls, as do plants and even inanimate objects; every blade of grass has a soul, and every grain of sand. Not only life, but also existence requires a soul to sustain it--a "spark of G-dliness" that perpetually imbues its object with being and significance. A soul is not just the engine of life; it also embodies the why of a thing's existence, it's meaning and purpose. It is a thing's "inner identity, it's raison d'être. Just like the 'soul' of a musical composition is the composer's vision that energizes and gives life to the notes played in a musical composition--the actual notes are like the body expressing the vision and feeling of the soul within them. Each soul is the expression of G-d's intent and vision in creating that particular being."1
Five Levels
But it is the human soul that is both the most complex and the most lofty of souls. Our sages have said: "She is called by five names: Nefesh (soul), Ruach (spirit), Neshamah (breath), Chayah (life) and Yechidah (singularity)."2 The Chassidic masters explain that the soul's five "names" actually describe five levels or dimensions of the soul. Nefesh is the soul as the engine of physical life. Ruach is the emotional self and "personality." Neshamah is the intellectual self. Chayah is the supra-rational self--the seat of will, desire, commitment and faith. Yechidah connotes the essence of the soul--its unity with its source, the singular essence of G-d. For the essence of the soul of man is "literally a part of G-d above"3--a piece of G-d in us, so to speak.
So I must admit the topic is not as clear cut as I initially stated. But what I believe is that the godly soul is special and the animal soul is common. Only humans have the image of G-d {Btzelem Elokim} and thus this is why we go to Gan Eden/Heaven. An animal has it's animal soul which according to our beliefs doesn't have free will, and thus cannot be rewarded or punished. Most animals do what they do without knowing right or wrong..
Choice
The Divine essence of the human soul is what sets the human being above and apart from all other creations, even the angels. The angel may be more spiritual, but the human being is more G-dly. No creation can possess true freedom of choice--a creation, by definition, has and consists of only what its creator has imparted to it; this is its "nature," and its every inclination and action will be dictated by that nature. It is only in the human soul that the Creator imparted of His own essence. The human soul is thus the only truly "supra-natural" being (aside from the Creator)--a being that is not limited by its own nature. A being that can transcend itself; a being that can choose to not merely react to its environment, but to act upon it; a being whose choices and actions are therefore of true significance.
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Dr. Dan I'm so sorry to hear about your dog. Losing a pet can be very traumatic.
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Muman: Again what is your very own, personal opinion on the matter? I already told you what I think Tanach implies pretty clearly but I admit there is no actual verse that says animals will go to heaven, hell, or somewhere else.
Dr. Dan: Please try to get an exact diagnosis, as nystagmus by itself is merely a symptom of an underlying neurological problem as JTFE mentioned.
Lisa: You are absolutely right. A beloved pet is exactly like an immediate family member.
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Muman: Again what is your very own, personal opinion on the matter? I already told you what I think Tanach implies pretty clearly but I admit there is no actual verse that says animals will go to heaven, hell, or somewhere else.
Dr. Dan: Please try to get an exact diagnosis, as nystagmus by itself is merely a symptom of an underlying neurological problem as JTFE mentioned.
Lisa: You are absolutely right. A beloved pet is exactly like an immediate family member.
I said in my initial response that I don't believe that most animal souls go to heaven. Only those special animals which possess a human soul which has been sent back into this world as a Gilgul {reincarnation}.
Several of my cats have possessed this special soul, though I also have had cats which seemed to be distant and difficult to feel close to.
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I actually discussed this to some degree with a friend of mine last week. It makes a certain amount of sense that to have eternal destiny, an animal ought to possess free will. However, I think some animals (the higher mammals primarily) do to some degree. Most animals from at least cats and dogs on up, especially if socialized well, know what they aren't supposed to do in their living circumstances and many times they see what they can get away with anyway. The human-animal relationship might seem unnatural but our pets merely see us as their leader, or alpha, the head of their pack. Therefore they are "supposed" to not do wrong. Of course, they still don't have the same kind of clear, rational thought as humans.
On the other hand, whether or not they do anything good or bad at all, all animals are the completely innocent victims of the fall of Adam. They suffer the curse of sin even though they never chose it at all.
In the end I strongly lean towards thinking that animals will receive comfort in the World to Come.
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Dr. Dan I am sorry life is painful for you right now. I love my pets very much [2 cats], and I have lost many pets in the past [several dogs and a cat]; I am sure what you are going through and feeling must be very difficult.
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This is indeed sad news... I remember the great video with Cookie where she just about talks...
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Sorry about Cookie being ill Dr Dan, it's heartbreaking.
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Muman: Is there an actual Torah verse that says that?
Dr. Dan: I am extremely sorry. Please provide more details. Nystagmus is a symptom, not a disease unto itself.
One of my brothers is holding cookie. All I heard from my secretaries was that she peed all over herself last night. I asked my brother who was watching her and he said she had "nystigmus". My other brother who saw her said that she was "very sick and has a few weeks to live possibly." Awhile back a vet said cookie had lymphoma.
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I will be praying for a miracle.
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I saw the youtube videos - Cookie is a wonderful dog - you are very lucky that she was a part of your life. I am a life-long dog owner and can really understand what you are going through. So sorry to hear about this imminent loss...
I try not to think to hard about it. I know that when I do see her if I do before she goes, it'll hit me. But I just keep telling myself, "She's just a dog and not a human being. It's ok. We can get another and I'll get attached to that one too."
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Dr. Dan I'm so sad for you. I hope that God will help you deal with the emotions that you're going through because of this situation.
Muman I am also sorry to hear about your cat, I hope you can keep them for as long as possible.
I am also sad that Bullcat Jr. lost Pudding. :(
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Dr. Dan I am sorry life is painful for you right now. I love my pets very much [2 cats], and I have lost many pets in the past [several dogs and a cat]; I am sure what you are going through and feeling must be very difficult.
It's not painful..It's a little sad...really, a human being dying would make me terribly sad especially..especially a relative, Gd forbid..
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I saw the youtube videos - Cookie is a wonderful dog - you are very lucky that she was a part of your life. I am a life-long dog owner and can really understand what you are going through. So sorry to hear about this imminent loss...
I try not to think to hard about it. I know that when I do see her if I do before she goes, it'll hit me. But I just keep telling myself, "She's just a dog and not a human being. It's ok. We can get another and I'll get attached to that one too."
You can't replace a dog by getting another dog. You'll love the other one, but it won't be the same animal and you will still miss the first one. They're individuals. I have more animals than I had before but I still miss my old ones that died, I don't forget them or their individual personalities just se they're gone.
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Muman: Is there an actual Torah verse that says that?
Dr. Dan: I am extremely sorry. Please provide more details. Nystagmus is a symptom, not a disease unto itself.
One of my brothers is holding cookie. All I heard from my secretaries was that she peed all over herself last night. I asked my brother who was watching her and he said she had "nystigmus". My other brother who saw her said that she was "very sick and has a few weeks to live possibly." Awhile back a vet said cookie had lymphoma.
When my beloved dog Hannah passed away she peed all over herself, and also vomited at the same time near the end. Our vet said she had 'acute liver failure'.
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I saw the youtube videos - Cookie is a wonderful dog - you are very lucky that she was a part of your life. I am a life-long dog owner and can really understand what you are going through. So sorry to hear about this imminent loss...
I try not to think to hard about it. I know that when I do see her if I do before she goes, it'll hit me. But I just keep telling myself, "She's just a dog and not a human being. It's ok. We can get another and I'll get attached to that one too."
You can't replace a dog by getting another dog. You'll love the other one, but it won't be the same animal and you will still miss the first one. They're individuals. I have more animals than I had before but I still miss my old ones that died, I don't forget them or their individual personalities just se they're gone.
I would never forget Cookie. There is no doubt that every dog will have a different special personality. But it is what it is. Gd put these dogs for us to enjoy and feel good and to take care of. Every dog I see, I stare and smile at..and if I can pet them I pet them. It'll be ok
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Dr. Dan, I just watched one of your videos of Cookie. She's precious!
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You cannot replace a pet, but it feels so good to get a new dog or cat that it does take the edge off the pain of losing a beloved animal.
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So Sorry Dan. Like humans bond, dogs especially bond strongly with their masters, and each has their own personality. Very hard to replace them and the joy they bring.
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Dr Dan, I am so sorry to hear that you are losing your beloved pet Cookie.
May you find comfort in the memories of your time together. No doubt she has been dearly loved by you and your family.
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My brother told me she's feeling better this morning...who knows?
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Dr. Dan I share your pain. My dog that I had for 14 years passed away this year. :'(
I think you should record the last days with your dog on camera so you won't forget him/her. It cheers me up to watch them of hr sometimes.
Just found out it was nystigmus, of which I have no clue what that is. My brother is watching her so he'll give me a heads up. I do have a youtube video of her that I have posted in the past..I'll post it here....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYdRZmqoaR0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhxWJSO-gzw
She looks a bit like my dog. Is she a black lab cross, maybe some border collie in her?
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i think just a black lab with a little something else
Dr. Dan I share your pain. My dog that I had for 14 years passed away this year. :'(
I think you should record the last days with your dog on camera so you won't forget him/her. It cheers me up to watch them of hr sometimes.
Just found out it was nystigmus, of which I have no clue what that is. My brother is watching her so he'll give me a heads up. I do have a youtube video of her that I have posted in the past..I'll post it here....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYdRZmqoaR0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhxWJSO-gzw
She looks a bit like my dog. Is she a black lab cross, maybe some border collie in her?
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I think you need to get a diagnosis from the vet. Nystagmus is a neurological sign, not a diagnosis unto itself. Without proper dx., how can we say if there is treatment or not?
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I think you need to get a diagnosis from the vet. Nystagmus is a neurological sign, not a diagnosis unto itself. Without proper dx., how can we say if there is treatment or not?
I realize it's a diagnosis, but she is also very old and very sick. she was diagnosed with lymphoma a month ago so who knows if this is a result of that. Either way, it is what it is. Don't think my brother is going to put her through chemotherapy. It makes no sense.
A human being on the other hand, who has a lymphoma, it makes sense to prolong his/her life with chemotherapy.
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I think you need to get a diagnosis from the vet. Nystagmus is a neurological sign, not a diagnosis unto itself. Without proper dx., how can we say if there is treatment or not?
I realize it's a diagnosis, but she is also very old and very sick. she was diagnosed with lymphoma a month ago so who knows if this is a result of that. Either way, it is what it is. Don't think my brother is going to put her through chemotherapy. It makes no sense.
A human being on the other hand, who has a lymphoma, it makes sense to prolong his/her life with chemotherapy.
Oh I'm sorry, Dr. Dan. Lymphoma is a different story and I think you di say that. My apologies
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Dr Dan very sorry for you loss.
I have a cat , what happens when it dies?
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I love dogs and my condolences to you.
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She hasn't died