JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: DownwithIslam on June 05, 2007, 12:28:06 AM
-
I am trying to hold myself back here so I will not use any extreme language but Ovadia Yosef has just supported Shimon Peresite for president of Israel. I have nothing else to say.
-
I think the evidence shows he speaks from both sides of his mouth. There are far better Torah leaders than him.
-
This is not a stable man. It is a shame he is in such a position where people revere him so. Shimon Peres has been one of Israel's worst human beings ever.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/867038.html
I would love to know how he can justify supporting Shimon Peres using the Torah. I'm sure it will be like these crazies who say the Bible supports abortion/homosexuality. I sincerely hope Sefardim are not going to support Yosef on this.
-
Downwithislam, is there any way you can write Ovadia Yossef directly? After all, he's a public figure in Israel, and you could give him a piece of your mind.
-
Lisa, he is in Israel and I doubt he speaks English. He is also old and prob doesn't even know how to turn a computer on. There is no way to contact him that I know of and I don't think it would do any good even if there was a way.
-
There are much more learned and more courageous Rabbis than Ovadia Yosef.
Have you guys heard of Rav David Bar Hayim of Machonshilo.org?
He is quite something.
-
I think the evidence shows he speaks from both sides of his mouth. There are far better Torah leaders than him.
He's an animal, but I'm sad to say that I rely on his halachic rulings, stuff you can't get anywhere as. As a leader of Am Yisrael, of course he's totally unreliable.
You know that you are going to hell, right?
-
Lisa, he is in Israel and I doubt he speaks English. He is also old and prob doesn't even know how to turn a computer on. There is no way to contact him that I know of and I don't think it would do any good even if there was a way.
He doesnt care what you say either, you are all pieces of trash compared to him, you dont even deserve to lick his shoes.
-
I am trying to hold myself back here so I will not use any extreme language but Ovadia Yosef has just supported Shimon Peresite for president of Israel. I have nothing else to say.
You have to learn torah as well as politics. I was speaking to my rabbi who has a picture of himself and Harav Ovadia in his office, and asked him about this. He answered, the only way to get him out of poilitcs is oddly enough, to get him to be president. Also this is a money thing. They are going to back the person who they think is going to win, because they need $ to fund Yeshiva bachurim who learn all day, and dont have food to eat. He is backing Peres because Peres is projected to come out the victor, and usually the people who reap the rewards of the victor are the people that back him.
-
I think the evidence shows he speaks from both sides of his mouth. There are far better Torah leaders than him.
The torah doesnt allow you to speak bad about him.
-
He doesn't care about the political party, just whether someone is Sfardic or not.
This sounds perilously close to racism to me. :o
-
He doesn't care about the political party, just whether someone is Sfardic or not.
This sounds perilously close to racism to me. :o
No it isnt. He just doesnt trust the Ashkenaz as much as he trusts sephardim. Secular Ashkenaz Zionists destroyed many Sephardic lives, physically, and spiritually.
-
Secular Ashkenaz Zionists destroyed many Sephardic lives, physically, and spiritually.
Isn't "secular Zionist" pretty much an oxymoron?
I certainly do not count David ben GAYrion and his flunkies and supporters as true Zionists. Their goal was not a Jewish state, but a Marxist/Leninist/Stalinist state that happened to be originated by Jews. They wanted Arab Marxists to join their state, and thus wanted to purge Israel of real Jews. Of course, this is hardly news to anyone.
-
On this audio clip http://www.bestsharing.com/files/gqfWPc265042/shas.wav.html
Chaim calls Shas as being "unbelievably evil", and that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is "Ovadia Kessef", "a degenerate", "completely and utterly insane", "senile", "a moron" etc etc.!
-
He doesnt care what you say either, you are all pieces of trash compared to him, you dont even deserve to lick his shoes.
Dominater, I just don't understand why you would even bother posting on a Kahanist forum considering you idolize a man that's in favor of giving up Jerusalem.
If you're in favor of giving up Jewish land, then all I can say is you are entitled to your opinion. But don't expect any agreement from Kahanist Jews whom you consider trash.
-
Is it true that Rav Yosef cannot even be questioned? Can his political decisions be questioned or is everything he says/does considered infalliable? This makes little sense. I can understand with halachic decisions but in terms of political decisions is he not fair game?
Dominator seems to deify him the way the Chabad deify their rebbe.
-
Lisa, I couldn't agree more. Dominater96 is a little boy who is in high school and is obviously under the control of some fanatical traitor rabbi who is in bed with Ovadia Yosef. Te fact that he would support someone solely to get funds for his yeshiva means that he is a prostitute willing to sell out the jewish people. Chaim has spoken about this many times before. We most certainly are allowed to criticise Ovadia and we will. I doubt Dominator96 is a torah scholar of any sorts or else he would think for himself without just following some crazy rabbi. Ovadia supporting Shimon peresite is all we really need to know about him. I think we shouldn't be afraid to criticise ovadia on this forum. I don't care if a certain person on here will be offended.
-
He doesnt care what you say either, you are all pieces of trash compared to him, you dont even deserve to lick his shoes.
Dominater, I just don't understand why you would even bother posting on a Kahanist forum considering you idolize a man that's in favor of giving up Jerusalem.
If you're in favor of giving up Jewish land, then all I can say is you are entitled to your opinion. But don't expect any agreement from Kahanist Jews whom you consider trash.
No Lisa he isnt in favor of giving up Jewish land. He holds ( which my rabbi doesnt hold by ) that you are halachiclly allowed to negotiate with arabs, and even go as far as to give up land if it has the chance for peace. He believes that it is Pikuach Nefesh.
-
Has he sincerely reversed his stance considering how Arabs honor any concessions made by Israel?
-
What kind of Kahanist actually likes Ovadia Yosef? If you like his halachic works, that's one thing but his political views are seriously messed up.
-
Dominater, you mention the Jews that study the Torah all day and don't work. Why is it necessary to be in bed with Shimon Peres just for the sake of giving these people welfare? Why can't they get a job and study Torah on their spare time?
And don't even think of calling me an ignorant racist. My parents are good, hardworking Iranian Jews. My father, and all my relatives would
never in a million years go on welfare just so they can spend their days reading the Torah.
-
No Lisa he isnt in favor of giving up Jewish land. He holds ( which my rabbi doesnt hold by ) that you are halachiclly allowed to negotiate with arabs, and even go as far as to give up land if it has the chance for peace. He believes that it is Pikuach Nefesh.
Dominater, no other respectable rabbis teach that. The Torah does NOT teach that sparing Arab life is of tantamount importance.
-
No Lisa he isnt in favor of giving up Jewish land. He holds ( which my rabbi doesnt hold by ) that you are halachiclly allowed to negotiate with arabs, and even go as far as to give up land if it has the chance for peace. He believes that it is Pikuach Nefesh.
Dominater, no other respectable rabbis teach that. The Torah does NOT teach that sparing Arab life is of tantamount importance.
[/quote WHO IS TALKING ABOUT ARAB LIFE HERE????
-
Dominater, you mention the Jews that study the Torah all day and don't work. Why is it necessary to be in bed with Shimon Peres just for the sake of giving these people welfare? Why can't they get a job and study Torah on their spare time?
And don't even think of calling me an ignorant racist. My parents are good, hardworking Iranian Jews. My father, and all my relatives would
never in a million years go on welfare just so they can spend their days reading the Torah.
That is what you will never understand. In the time of the Neviim, they used to split the soldiers up into 2 groups, one group who fought in the actual war, and the other group who learned torah for the sake of the fighters. If they have a job, they have less time to learn. I would be happy to know that my tax money is going to young bachurim to learn. They want to learn EVERY BREATHING SECOND.
-
As Chaim pointed out, if everyone sits around and learns Torah all day the state of Israel would die.
-
Who said everyone? And lets depend on Hashem, not Chaim ben Pesach.
-
That is what you will never understand. In the time of the Neviim, they used to split the soldiers up into 2 groups, one group who fought in the actual war, and the other group who learned torah for the sake of the fighters. If they have a job, they have less time to learn. I would be happy to know that my tax money is going to young bachurim to learn. They want to learn EVERY BREATHING SECOND.
If they want to learn every breathing second, that's fine. But not on the taxpayer dime. If you want to donate money to these bachurim so they won't have to work, that' your prerogative. I have no problem with private charities giving these people money to study the Torah all day, if that's really what they want to spend their money on. But forcing Israeli taxpayers at the point of a gun to support these people is not right.
-
Thats your opinion. They are also protecting the country with their learning. Raish Lakish says in the Gemara, "This is the Torah: a person who dies in a tent." What does this mean???? It means Torah is only sustained through someone who kills himself over it.
-
As Chaim pointed out, if everyone sits around and learns Torah all day the state of Israel would die.
Rabbi Shaimon Bar Yochai, escaped to a cave when the Romans were after him. All he did all day was learn torah. How did he eat? Drink? Did he work for money? No. He learned all day in a cave, and g-d did the rest, a spring gave him water, and a carob tree bloomed to feed him. Even the Rambam who is said to support people working and learning, says that the selcted few that want to withdraw from working, and devote themselves to full torah learning "Harei Zei Nitkadiesh Kodesh Kodashim' - this person is sanctified as the holiest of holies( Hilcot Shemitah Veyovel)- last halacha. There is a halachic debate on page Lamed Hey (35) amud beit, in masechet Berachot.
-
Thats your opinion. They are also protecting the country with their learning. Raish Lakish says in the Gemara, "This is the Torah: a person who dies in a tent." What does this mean?Huh It means Torah is only sustained through someone who kills himself over it.
Considering the relentless bombing of Sderot, Israel's humiliating defeat by Hezbollah, and the fact that Smolmert wants to offer up the Golan Heights, I don't think being a deadbeat is doing the Jewish state much good.
-
As Chaim pointed out, if everyone sits around and learns Torah all day the state of Israel would die.
Rabbi Shaimon Bar Yochai, escaped to a cave when the Romans were after him. All he did all day was learn torah. How did he eat? Drink? Did he work for money? No. He learned all day in a cave, and g-d did the rest, a spring gave him water, and a carob tree bloomed to feed him. Even the Rambam who is said to support people working and learning, says that the selcted few that want to withdraw from working, and devote themselves to full torah learning "Harei Zei Nitkadiesh Kodesh Kodashim' - this person is sanctified as the holiest of holies( Hilcot Shemitah Veyovel)- last halacha. There is a halachic debate on page Lamed Hey (35) amud beit, in masechet Berachot.
WRONG. Denominator, you are forgetting the second half of the story. G-d punished him by sending him back into the cave because he didn't understand that Torah is nothing without a worldly occupation. He saw a farmer trying to make a living, got angry that he wasn't learning and burnt the farm down by looking at it. Then G-d punished him by sending him back into the cave. When he came out the second time, he learned his lesson because he saw a Jew buying 2 fish or something like that and he asked him why he's doing this, he only needs one and the Jew replied that it says Zachor V'shamar Et Hashabat so I need two and he smiled. The Mishnah and the Rambam say that Torah without an occupation causes sin. The Rambam says that anyone who learns Torah by having the community support them is disgracing the name of G-d and will go to hell. So according to the Rambam, these parasites living off the government are going to go to hell and are disgracing the name of G-d. According to the Rambam, it is only acceptable to learn Torah most of the time if you have your family or a rich person support you and even then he wants you to work part time. He never allows the community to support learners in any circumstances, as he says this disgraces the name of G-d and is sinful. The only learners the Rambam will support are possibly those who have their family support them or a rich person supporting them but never off the community and even then they must not learn all day. Denominator, your Yeshiva is brainwashing you like they tried to do to me. In the time of the Shoftim, every male over 20 fought in the army. There was basically no one left behind learning or praying for them except the women, the children and a few prophets. That was it. All the great learners fought in the army as well. King David and his entire family were great learners but they all fought in the army and didn't stay home and learn. These Charedi Yeshivot are lying to you. This is what the Rambam really says, Denominator:
RAMBAM SEFER HAMADA, HILCHOT LIMUD TORAH
10) Anybody who undertakes to learn Torah all the time, not work, and support himself from charity is desecrating G-d's Name, disgracing the Torah, extinguishes his Jewish spark, causes bad to befall him and destroys his life in the World To Come, for it is forbidden to benefit from Torah matters in this world. The Sages said that anyone who does benefit from Torah matters is destroying his life, and they further commanded one not to make a garland with which to glorify oneself, nor an axe with which to dig. Furthermore, one should like one's work and dislike being a rabbi. Any Torah which one studies without working at is worthless, and causes punishment. A man who acts like this will become a bandit.
11) Someone who supports himself by his own work is at an advantage. This was the way of the first pious people, and will merit one to all the honour and goodness of this world and the World To Come, for it is written, "For you shall eat of the labour of your hands; you shall be happy, and it shall be well for you". The words, "you shall be happy" refer to this world, and the words, "and it shall be well for you" refer to the World To Come, where everything is good.
-
Thats your opinion. They are also protecting the country with their learning. Raish Lakish says in the Gemara, "This is the Torah: a person who dies in a tent." What does this mean???? It means Torah is only sustained through someone who kills himself over it.
According to the Rambam, anyone who learns by supporting themselves off charity is going to hell. And it is not just the Rambam, the Mishnah says this as well in Pirkai Avot with no dissenting opinion. I don't care if that includes most of the Charedi and all the Chassidish learners out there. This is what the Rambam says and he is right since this leads to evilness and sin. They'd vote for any leftist governement in Israel to fill there pockets, they'd steal money and make schemes to cheat people whenever they can and they couldn't care less about doing anything besides sitting on their asses all day. Plus they suck in all the charity money that could be going to real causes like freeing Jewish prisoners and building free Yeshivot in America to stop the silent Holocost.
-
IM not saying that I would learn all day, and not work. But Rambam is only of one opinion. Why does he say in Hilchot Shemitah Veyovel that someone who only learns is sanctified as the holiest of holies? You seem to be a Talmid Hacham. And in Masechet Berachot Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai advocated devoting onesself to learning torah entirely, and depend on G-d to provide the $?.
-
Dominater96 needs to finish high school and get out into the real world to figure out that his insane ideas are false. Ovadia Yosef has met with Muslim Nazis, he wants Jerusalem under Sharia law and his policies in general would lead the Jewish people to their death. He is a prostitute of the most evil kind if he is willing to support the surrender of Jewish land just so his little yeshivas could have a few extra bucks. What an animal.
-
Depending on God for money? THAT is evil.
-
Ovadia Yosef thinks he is G-d. That is even worse. All his followers think he is G-d also. What a shame.
-
IM not saying that I would learn all day, and not work. But Rambam is only of one opinion. Why does he say in Hilchot Shemitah Veyovel that someone who only learns is sanctified as the holiest of holies? You seem to be a Talmid Hacham. And in Masechet Berachot Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai advocated devoting onesself to learning torah entirely, and depend on G-d to provide the $?.
But the Halacha was not like him. 1. The Mishna does not list any dispute about this issue, all it says is that Torah without work will lead you to sin and to hell. No dissenting opinion is listed in the Mishnah, which has authority over anything the Talmud says. 2. Yes, there was ONE Rabbi in the Talmud who disagreed but the Halacha was not like him and the Talmud states this. I am not a Talmud Chachum so I don't know it by heart but here is what I remember: The Talmud says that there were those who did like a Tanna who said to have a Job and learn (Rish Lakush??) and those who did like another Tanna (I think R' Shimon Bar Yochai) who said to learn only and let G-d provide the funds and those who did like the first were all successful and only a few who did like R' Shimon were sucessful (in other words, his method didn't work out for most people). Someone help me out and quote the source. NOTE that even if you hold like the minority opinion which the Halachah is not like, and you think you are on the level of R' Shimon Bar Yochai, EVEN HE DIDN'T ALLOW YOU TO RELY OFF COMMUNITY FUNDS. R' Shimon Bar Yochai simply sat and learned relying on G-d to provide him money and he never took any charity from anyone. How do I know? This requires a little thinking and using your Jewish head. According to him, if you sit and learn and G-d does not provide the funds, you have to abandon your efforts and go to work like those who followed him. Otherwise, why did the Talmud say that most who tried to do like him were not successful, why didn't they just live off community funds? The answer is that obviously it never entered into their minds to do this, so when G-d failed to support them miraculously, they abandoned the method.
Secondly, the Rambam is very clear on this issue in the verse I quote that one must work and learn and never rely off charity. You are merely misreading the Rambam. Show me where he says that he's talking about someone who only learns, quote it. Most probably, he's just talking about learning in general and you misread it.