JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Yaakov Mendel on March 04, 2011, 06:27:10 AM
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I joined this forum about a year ago. Since then, I have had time to listen and discuss. I have been influenced by some of the views expressed here and I have sometimes tried to convince myself that I believed in opinions that did not actually reflect my true personality. Since I have been posting quite a lot here, I think I owe an explanation and a clarification. This is not a turnaround. I still have much respect and support for Chaim Ben Pesach. I still agree with him on the main points of his agenda for the survival of Israel – no new Arab state, support for the settlers’ struggle, resistance against world pressure, the need to speak the truth about Islam and the myth of the Palestinian people, etc. However, there are many topics on which I do not share views that are frequently expressed on this forum.
First, as much as I love the Jewish people and Judaism, I fundamentally trust rational thinking and values of individualism and universalism, and I am opposed to superstition and religious intolerance. As a consequence, there are some views usually expressed on this forum that conflict with my conscience. For example, I would not say : « I was born Jewish, so this Land belongs to me because G-d gave it to me as a member of the Chosen people ». I do think that Jews have the right to have their own state in the land of Israel but this right should not be grounded on a subjective belief that you cannot force the others to share.
Another consequence is that I would certainly not interpret every natural catastrophe that occurs on this planet as a divine punishment. I find it irrational to assume that there is a will and an intention behind a natural phenomenon. Science describes clearly and accurately the chain of causes and consequences that leads to such events.
Another consequence is that I reject the concepts of collective punishment and collective responsibility. Only those who have been proven to be guilty should be punished. If my brother or my neighbour did something evil and there was no way I could have prevented it, it is just not fair that I should bear the consequences of it.
More generally, I have much respect for the Tanach but as a book that stimulates reflexion and that calls for interpretation, not as a list of rules and bans that should be enforced in today’s society exactly as they were written thousands of years ago. The great Jewish tradition is precisely one of critical comment and discussion and I am convinced that this regularly renewed interpretation is one of the main reasons for the survival of Judaism despite all the attempts to wipe it out throughout the centuries.
I support liberty of conscience. I respect atheists as long as they do not express intolerance with regard to religious believers. To me, what defines a cultural community of individuals in a consistent manner is what they believe in, what they fight for, how they choose to live their life, not how they were born nor any other criterion that they did not choose consciously and deliberately and that is imposed upon them.
As far as I’m concerned, my mother is Jewish. But I received little Jewish education when I grew up. When I was younger, I met a wonderful human being. The fact that she was not Jewish did not bother me. I married her because she is a great individual, Jewish or not, and we love each other. Since then, I have rediscovered the importance of my Jewish roots and identity, something that was partly stolen from me when I was young because of the assimilated way I was brought up. I am giving my daughter, who is not Jewish according to the Halacha, a little of what I did not have the chance to receive, to the best of my limited capabilities. I believe there is a good chance that she will convert when she has grown up – although I will respect her decision if she won’t. And now, when I come to this forum, I am told that I am finishing Hitler’s work through my former intermarriage ! Well I have a message for those miserable souls here who equate me with a Nazi : I do not regret for a second marrying my wonderful wife and I will never even think of doing something as ugly as leaving her because she is not Jewish.
There are other things that make me feel uneasy here. For instance, the calls to refuse to serve in the IDF. I know this is a contentious issue and not all JTFers side with this. I have expressed my opinion several times on this matter. I am certainly not satisfied with the way the IDF operates today and I share most of the criticisms usually expressed against the IDF on this forum. However, I just can’t support calls to refuse to serve in the Israeli military for obvious reasons that I have already stated. Besides, as much as I find destructions of settlers’ homes shocking and insane, I find it very exaggerated, to put it mildly, to equate Tsahal with the German SS and to say that Tsahal is sworn to eliminate the Jewish existence in the Land of Israel, as sometimes read on this forum.
One other thing that I do not align myself with here is the number of extremely derogatory comments on « Blacks » in general. Of course I reject the jealousy and the hatred of some African Americans, their « culture » of violence, their claims to affirmative action in order to conceal their own failures, but there is too much blind generalization on this forum against all « Blacks » (as if this referred to a consistently defined group of individuals), that sometimes barely disguises crude racism under the pretense of not being politically correct. In this respect, one of the things that shocked me most was the almost unanimous expression of satisfaction at the earthquake and outbreak of cholera in Haiti, and the bitter criticism of Israel sending a modest rescue team out there, although Haiti has never been an ennemy of Israel and has never done any harm to Israel as far as I know.
Likewise, I do not share the obsession of some JTFers (not all of them) with homosexuals. I am opposed to gay activism and to the promotion of homosexuality, but apart from that I do not essentially judge someone based on their sexual preferences. Not all homosexuals behave like Sodom and Gomorrah, as many posts suggest. I have good friends who are gay. They have been a faithful couple for a long time, they do not indulge in the sexual debauchery fantasized by some here, and they do not brag about their homosexuality.
One last point where I differ from most members of this forum is my position on the economy. I am certainly not a socialist, I am basically in favour of free markets and competition as a more effective way to create wealth, but I am not opposed to some forms of wealth redistribution and I do not systematically view taxes as robbery. I also think that careful government intervention is sometimes needed to regulate the markets.
Finally, I’ve been thinking about the dangers of sustaining Internet-based relationships. Obviously, it can create some form of addiction. It can also lead people to say things that they would not say to each other if they met face to face. That is why I think I will post less from now on.
I know I have tackled many different topics. My point is not to raise a debate on each one but rather to clarify where I now realize I stand on issues that regularly come up here. I am doing this because I do not want to be some sort of misleading character on this forum. If someone feels surprised at some of the things I have written in this thread, I want to emphasize that I never tried to deceive anyone here – except perhaps myself… I am sincerely trying to know who I am, what is good and what is evil, what is right and what is wrong.
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Any paragraph here could become a hot debate. I agree with some of what you say and I am myself a secular cynical skeptic. For example regarding the IDF issue I think that it's not just factually wrong to equate the IDF to the SS, but it is also pragmatically wrong and presents a serious risk of losing the crowed.
But one thing in your attitude and thought I believe is lacking- the realization that the future of the Jewish people is carried on the shoulders of the religious Jews. Secular Jews just cannot survive as a people, so if we care about our people, we better support the religious Jews.
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Shalom yacov
I hear you. You are entitled to any opinion you want to have. You are not required to agree with everything jtf believes in. it's good to have an open mind though. I used to have the same opinions as you. There are certain things that still conflict me, but now I just see it as first proving my original opinion right. There are other things I take as a grain of salt. Most reasonable people do that.
There are things here that jtfers vehemently disagree with what you do. Take it easy. I think some if them need to also when addressing you personally.
But bottom line, chaim is the man. He will be the most honest person here. Anything private that you feel attacked about, talk to him. He will allow you to debate him if it is a debate without defaming you. I know he loves and respects you. I know I do too. You are overall a good man even though there are some fundamental things you wrote on your post that are either wrong or misunderstood about views of this movement. It's clear that some people here are overzealous, immature or plain angry. Don't take any of it personally. Some posters here have strengths and weaknesses on certain subjects. Muman for example on his torah topics or kwrbt when he adds logic and explanatio.
Bottom line, the torah is always right and when I disagree it means I don't understand something yet. Interpretation will vary of course in the torah, but still question with that logic of yours and you'll eventually understand.
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You see Yaakov why i feel harshly to some Jews if you look at this tape http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,53602.0.html
this as well
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,53601.0.html
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You see Yaakov why i feel harshly to some Jews if you look at this tape http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,53602.0.html
this as well
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,53601.0.html
I obviously share 100% your disgust at this kind of Jews... There is no question that I'm completely on board here against them.
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I obviously share 100% your disgust at this kind of Jews... There is no question that I'm completely on board here against them.
So whats the problem
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Shalom yacov
I hear you. You are entitled to any opinion you want to have. You are not required to agree with everything jtf believes in. it's good to have an open mind though. I used to have the same opinions as you. There are certain things that still conflict me, but now I just see it as first proving my original opinion right. There are other things I take as a grain of salt. Most reasonable people do that.
There are things here that jtfers vehemently disagree with what you do. Take it easy. I think some if them need to also when addressing you personally.
But bottom line, chaim is the man. He will be the most honest person here. Anything private that you feel attacked about, talk to him. He will allow you to debate him if it is a debate without defaming you. I know he loves and respects you. I know I do too. You are overall a good man even though there are some fundamental things you wrote on your post that are either wrong or misunderstood about views of this movement. It's clear that some people here are overzealous, immature or plain angry. Don't take any of it personally. Some posters here have strengths and weaknesses on certain subjects. Muman for example on his torah topics or kwrbt when he adds logic and explanatio.
Bottom line, the torah is always right and when I disagree it means I don't understand something yet. Interpretation will vary of course in the torah, but still question with that logic of yours and you'll eventually understand.
Thank you Dr Dan for your kind answer.
I definitely agree with you that I might misinterpret the Torah or fail to understand what it says. However, I would not be ready to assume that "the torah is always right". As a general rule, I am wary of any possible form of control of my judgement and of my critical thinking. This rules out nothing, not even the Torah. I try to make as few assumptions as I can and to trust only empirical evidence and sound logic. But that doesn't mean I always succeed in doing so, of course, especially when emotions interfere.
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So whats the problem
The "problem", basically, is that I am fundamentally a rationalist, an individualist and a universalist mind, and these principles sometimes conflict with the Torah, which makes me wonder if I really belong here, since this is a religious forum, although I have a lot of admiration and respect for Chaim Ben Pesach and I support his agenda for Israel's survival.
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The "problem", basically, is that I am fundamentally a rationalist, an individualist and a universalist mind, and these principles sometimes conflict with the Torah, which makes me wonder if I really belong here, since this is a religious forum, although I have a lot of admiration and respect for Chaim Ben Pesach and I support his agenda for Israel's survival.
How can this be a strictly religious Forum we have none Jews as well as some agnostics.BTW some Catholics catch hell from a few members yet they just ignore them or mock them
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How can this be a strictly religious Forum we have none Jews as well as some agnostics.BTW some Catholics catch hell from a few members yet they just ignore them or mock them
Yes, I know that, however it is a fact that Kahanism is a deeply religious vision of the world and history and Chaim himself justifiably defines his movement as a religious movement. The ultimate aim of Kahane, if I'm not mistaken, was to create a true Jewish state and this implied, in his mind, to achieve in Israel a kind of society that would be as close as possible as to what the Tanach prescribes.
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Yes, I know that, however it is a fact that Kahanism is a deeply religious vision of the world and history and Chaim himself justifiably defines his movement as a religious movement. The ultimate aim of Kahane, if I'm not mistaken, was to create a true Jewish state and this implied, in his mind, to achieve in Israel a kind of society that would be as close as possible as to what the Tanach prescribes.
True but without coercion
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Yes, I know that, however it is a fact that Kahanism is a deeply religious vision of the world and history and Chaim himself justifiably defines his movement as a religious movement. The ultimate aim of Kahane, if I'm not mistaken, was to create a true Jewish state and this implied, in his mind, to achieve in Israel a kind of society that would be as close as possible as to what the Tanach prescribes.
And what sort of viable Israel do you support ?
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And what sort of viable Israel do you support ?
As regards the territory, Judea and Samaria and Gaza would be annexed. As regards the political institutions, a democratic state with constitutional rights, respecting both religious and secular Jews, open to the outside world. Pretty much a balanced Western-style democracy with strong checks and balances. True freedom of expression, a true multi-party system, an educational system that does not twist the minds of the youth, a truly independent judicial system, media networks that are not controlled by the left.
But the Arabs will have to go first because I obviously do not want them to use the demographic weapon and the majority rule in the political system to become a leading force in Israel. The Constitution will have to guarantee Jewish majority, I don't care whether the world barks "racism" or any other similar libel. Once most Arabs have gone, Israel would have to apply a strictly controlled policy of immigration, to ensure continued Jewish majority.
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As regards the territory, Judea and Samaria and Gaza would be annexed. As regards the political institutions, a democratic state with constitutional rights, respecting both religious and secular Jews, open to the outside world. Pretty much a balanced Western-style democracy with strong checks and balances. True freedom of expression, a true multi-party system, an educational system that does not twist the minds of the youth, a truly independent judicial system, media networks that are not controlled by the left.
But the Arabs will have to go first because I obviously do not want them to use the demographic weapon and the majority rule in the political system to become a leading force in Israel. The Constitution will have to guarantee Jewish majority, I don't care whether the world barks "racism" or any other similar libel. Once most Arabs have gone, Israel would have to apply a strictly controlled policy of immigration, to ensure continued Jewish majority.
Thats what we all want no one can force a secular person to be Religious
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So you were lying to us? All along you were saying that your objection to the religious jewish argument about the land of Israel was because you were trying to appeal to seculars and don't think they will buy that. But now it sounds like you are saying that it is you that simply does not believe in Judaism. It usually turns out very badly here with people who come on to the forum initially misrepresenting themselves. There is usually some ulterior motive behind that and they end up obsessively slandering us in the end. I hope you won't turn out like this yaakov, but I must say I'm surprised and disappointed.
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Btw I haven't finished reading what you wrote, but I just want to say I don't see what the big problem is. Not everyone has to agree here. And certainly not about EVERYTHING. There are people here I disagree with all the time but we are friends and support this movement. Let me give you an example some people here deny evolution, and I think that is nuts. So what? There are also some here who agree with me that it happened.
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I could say something about your opinion of Judaism but I am afraid it will sound insulting or derogatory. But I will say this...
A person who thinks he knows it all, knows better than Hashem, is a person who does not understand the ways of Hashem. This is a very troublesome position for a Jew to be in. If you reject your heritage you lose all the benefits of being a Jew. When you turn your back on Hashem he in turn turns his back on you.
When a man believes that his good fortune comes from his own work and ingenuity he is on a very dangerous path. If every person were to decide what is right and moral in his own eyes there would be no peace in the world. Secular humanism is a religion of self-worship.
It is sad to hear from another Jew who is obviously working against Hashem and his people. That you proudly post that you intermarried is very bad and a terrible influence on any Jew reading this forum. I was married to a non-Jew but I divorced her before I did Teshuva. If I remarry it will certainly be to a Jewess. I don't agree that intermarrying makes one like Hitler but I do see the comparison. You Yaacov have contributed to the decline of the Jewish people. You may rationalize it with your secular humanism thinking but it is true none the less.
I hope that you realize that I pray for you to resolve your issues..
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Yes, I know that, however it is a fact that Kahanism is a deeply religious vision of the world and history and Chaim himself justifiably defines his movement as a religious movement. The ultimate aim of Kahane, if I'm not mistaken, was to create a true Jewish state and this implied, in his mind, to achieve in Israel a kind of society that would be as close as possible as to what the Tanach prescribes.
Yakov,
I for, example, agree with a lot of what you said in your post - I am a religious secularist, if I were to define myself. I believe in G-d but am a very secular Jew and do not want to see any type of religious dictate over the lives of Jews in Israel. Before the coming of the Messiah, I do not want to see a religious state in Israel - I believe that democracy is the best form of government. However, HaRav, ZT"L HY"D Kahane often said that he is "not a politician who is also a rabbi", but he defined himself as "a rabbi who is also a politician." As such, you have to respect his uncompromising position even though you may disagree with it. This was an honest position, albeit not a popular stance.
I think that calling you a nazi for marrying a non-Jew is insane. One could, however, make a logical argument, that spiritually you continue the work of the nazis by marrying a non-Jew and ending future Jewish life.
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I could say something about your opinion of Judaism but I am afraid it will sound insulting or derogatory. But I will say this...
A person who thinks he knows it all, knows better than Hashem, is a person who does not understand the ways of Hashem. This is a very troublesome position for a Jew to be in. If you reject your heritage you lose all the benefits of being a Jew. When you turn your back on Hashem he in turn turns his back on you.
When a man believes that his good fortune comes from his own work and ingenuity he is on a very dangerous path. If every person were to decide what is right and moral in his own eyes there would be no peace in the world. Secular humanism is a religion of self-worship.
It is sad to hear from another Jew who is obviously working against Hashem and his people. That you proudly post that you intermarried is very bad and a terrible influence on any Jew reading this forum. I was married to a non-Jew but I divorced her before I did Teshuva. If I remarry it will certainly be to a Jewess. I don't agree that intermarrying makes one like Hitler but I do see the comparison. You Yaacov have contributed to the decline of the Jewish people. You may rationalize it with your secular humanism thinking but it is true none the less.
I hope that you realize that I pray for you to resolve your issues..
You see, when I was talking about religious intolerance, superstition and bigotry, I was thinking of individuals who react like you... I thought you had more sensitivity, intelligence and ahavat israel, but it is clear that I was wrong. I did not suspect that you could be so nasty.
Save your prayers, you should curse me instead, since there is so much fear and hatred in your heart. Go ahead, Muman, be a good Jew and curse Yaakov Mendel the traitor ! Hashem will reward you !
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So you were lying to us? All along you were saying that your objection to the religious jewish argument about the land of Israel was because you were trying to appeal to seculars and don't think they will buy that. But now it sounds like you are saying that it is you that simply does not believe in Judaism. It usually turns out very badly here with people who come on to the forum initially misrepresenting themselves. There is usually some ulterior motive behind that and they end up obsessively slandering us in the end. I hope you won't turn out like this yaakov, but I must say I'm surprised and disappointed.
Don't worry, nothing is going to turn out very badly with me, I am not the kind of person who will "slander you obsessively"... No, I'm not a liar, it is obvious that if I was not sincere I would not have said the things I said in this thread...
As far as I am concerned, I'm not "surprised and disappointed", I am disgusted by your comment.
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You see, when I was talking about religious intolerance, superstition and bigotry, I was thinking of individuals who react like you... I thought you had more sensitivity, intelligence and ahavat israel, but it is clear that I was wrong. I did not suspect that you could be so nasty.
Save your prayers, you should curse me instead, since there is so much fear and hatred in your heart. Go ahead, Muman, be a good Jew and curse Yaakov Mendel the traitor ! Hashem will reward you !
Yaacov,
Your response is to be expected. I did not express hatred I expressed the simple truth of being Jewish. Without the Torah there would be no Jewish people. If you have any respect for your heritage you would investigate it instead of rejecting it. I did not say that there is no hope for you. But if you really wanted to be Jewish you would seek out the truth of Judaism and not follow secular humanism.
I am not trying to push you away, I am trying to pull you in... If you feel Jewish you should try to find a Rabbi who speaks to your Jewish neshamah.
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Yaacov,
Your response is to be expected. I did not express hatred I expressed the simple truth of being Jewish. Without the Torah there would be no Jewish people. If you have any respect for your heritage you would investigate it instead of rejecting it. I did not say that there is no hope for you. But if you really wanted to be Jewish you would seek out the truth of Judaism and not follow secular humanism.
I am not trying to push you away, I am trying to pull you in... If you feel Jewish you should try to find a Rabbi who speaks to your Jewish neshamah.
If that's the way you try to pull in your fellow Jews, you are not doing a favour to Judaism and to the Jewish people. One word of advice if I may : before you harshly condemn those you don't understand, try to listen to them, to open your mind and your heart. You are the one who thinks he knows everything here and who arrogantly and complacently asserts his alleged moral superiority.
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If that's the way you try to pull in your fellow Jews, you are not doing a favour to Judaism and to the Jewish people. One word of advice if I may : before you harshly condemn those you don't understand, try to listen to them, to open your mind and your heart. You are the one who thinks he knows everything here and who arrogantly and complacently asserts his alleged moral superiority.
Yaacov,
I am trying hard not to appear as you say. Sometimes people hear what they want to hear, and don't hear what they don't want to hear. I am not 'judging' you in particular. I do not know you and I believe that all Jews have merit no matter what mitzvahs they do. The Talmud says that even the most distant Jew has as many 'good deeds' as a pomegranate and I believe it.
I was one of the most distant Jews who rejected his heritage. After my Bar Mitzvah I went down a path which took me to the depths. I got involved with virtually everything prohibited. For almost 20 years I was identifying myself as a 'DeadHead', a follower of the rock-band The Grateful Dead. I got involved with drugs, I got involved with shady women, I got in trouble, etc. etc.
But after 9/11, when my brother was murdered in the WTC, and after my divorce, and after losing a good job I started to become depressed. Then I was told 'Go back to your people' by an African-American Christian neighbor. With that I sought out the local synagogue, a liberal-progressive temple which, thank Hashem, put me back on the path to Hashem. I hooked up with the local Orthodox minyan and ever since then I meet with them to daven and for Shabbat and Yom Tov.
I fully understand and have the greatest patients for Jews. I believe that Teshuva is ALWAYS possible no matter how far from Hashem a Jew has become.
I am sorry if you feel I am being judgmental. I hope you understand what I am trying to say...
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Thank you Dr Dan for your kind answer.
I definitely agree with you that I might misinterpret the Torah or fail to understand what it says. However, I would not be ready to assume that "the torah is always right". As a general rule, I am wary of any possible form of control of my judgement and of my critical thinking. This rules out nothing, not even the Torah. I try to make as few assumptions as I can and to trust only empirical evidence and sound logic. But that doesn't mean I always succeed in doing so, of course, especially when emotions interfere.
The torah will always be my guide as a man, dentist, and human being. Somethings I might read will interfere with our logic, but sometimes we misread and misinterpret.
However Gd is Greater than our own logic. So my answer to you us to have and develop a sense of faith. In other words, floods for example. Yess' act of nature, but why and when and where specifically is Hashem. The why, nobody can really say, but are allowed to assume and speculate.
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Don't worry, nothing is going to turn out very badly with me, I am not the kind of person who will "slander you obsessively"... No, I'm not a liar, it is obvious that if I was not sincere I would not have said the things I said in this thread...
As far as I am concerned, I'm not "surprised and disappointed", I am disgusted by your comment.
Disgusted by my comment? What about it? I didn't think I said anything objectionable.
I also never called you 'a liar'. I suggested you lied to us (note the past tense) about a particular thing when you said you were against making the religious Jewish argument for Jewish possession of eretz yisrael because you were trying to appeal to seculars. Isn't the truth that the argument just doesn't appeal to YOU and that's why you don't like the argument? Aren't you the one who admitted this is this thread? I'm only going by what you said. If it was a lie it was a lie, but I'm just stating ffacts about what has happened with certain people on this forum time after time after time after time on this forum since I've been here for years.
Was this post "disgusting" to you too?
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Yaacov,
I am trying hard not to appear as you say. Sometimes people hear what they want to hear, and don't hear what they don't want to hear. I am not 'judging' you in particular. I do not know you and I believe that all Jews have merit no matter what mitzvahs they do. The Talmud says that even the most distant Jew has as many 'good deeds' as a pomegranate and I believe it.
I was one of the most distant Jews who rejected his heritage. After my Bar Mitzvah I went down a path which took me to the depths. I got involved with virtually everything prohibited. For almost 20 years I was identifying myself as a 'DeadHead', a follower of the rock-band The Grateful Dead. I got involved with drugs, I got involved with shady women, I got in trouble, etc. etc.
But after 9/11, when my brother was murdered in the WTC, and after my divorce, and after losing a good job I started to become depressed. Then I was told 'Go back to your people' by an African-American Christian neighbor. With that I sought out the local synagogue, a liberal-progressive temple which, thank Hashem, put me back on the path to Hashem. I hooked up with the local Orthodox minyan and ever since then I meet with them to daven and for Shabbat and Yom Tov.
I fully understand and have the greatest patients for Jews. I believe that Teshuva is ALWAYS possible no matter how far from Hashem a Jew has become.
I am sorry if you feel I am being judgmental. I hope you understand what I am trying to say...
Your personal history sheds light on your emotional reactions - as for all the rest of us. You went through a hard time and it seems you have found the personal security you were after through strict religious observance. I am sincerely glad for you because I am sure there is a lot of good in you.
But a dangerous consequence of this psychological process is that you find it hard to accept that another Jew will raise questions that make your feeling of insecurity resurface. You reacted angrily at my remarks because they were calling into question the mental defense mechanisms you have created for yourself. You resent me because you view me as the one you used to be when you were drifiting. But I'm not. I have a different personal history. I have a different background. Yet, I also love the Jewish people and I also respect Judaism, even if my approach probably seems heretic to you.
In general, I believe that religious intolerance derives from fear - fear of the unknown, fear of death, fear of the others, and that fear is very understandable. But what harm am I actually causing by raising questions ? Why shut down one's mind to facts and arguments just because they run counter to certain dogmas ? Is it the right way to try to approach the truth ?
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Disgusted by my comment? What about it? I didn't think I said anything objectionable.
I also never called you 'a liar'. I suggested you lied to us (note the past tense) about a particular thing when you said you were against making the religious Jewish argument for Jewish possession of eretz yisrael because you were trying to appeal to seculars. Isn't the truth that the argument just doesn't appeal to YOU and that's why you don't like the argument? Aren't you the one who admitted this is this thread? I'm only going by what you said. If it was a lie it was a lie, but I'm just stating ffacts about what has happened with certain people on this forum time after time after time after time on this forum since I've been here for years.
Was this post "disgusting" to you too?
I won't reply to that because you are not being honest.
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With regards to your intermarriage,what individual on this forum actually called a person that intermarries a nazi? I think you may have misread someone's comment.
But even if there is a single person who said such a thing, why did you portray his/her comment as being "JTF opinion" with this thread? Why do you pick the most outlandish comment someone can possibly make and then act is if the forum as a whole propagates this as a message? Individuallls can't have a simple disagreement?
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I won't reply to that because you are not being honest.
Honest about what?
Please read carefully is all I can say to you. I really would like to know what is "disgusting " about my comment. I didn't intend any insult at all, anywhere in my comment!
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Honest about what?
Please read carefully is all I can say to you. I really would like to know what is "disgusting " about my comment. I didn't intend any insult at all, anywhere in my comment!
Come on, calling me a liar is not offensive ? Insinuating that I will eventually betray this movement and slander you is not offensive ?
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Let me put it to you this way-
Given what you wrote here including things you readily admit you've been keeping inside but now want to share with us - is it any wonder that I or anyone else would be surprised by your comment?
Surprise means I was not expecting it. Unless I was in your head, how would I have known all of this or seen it coming.
Question 2 : are we all forbidden now from saying we are disappointed that a fellow Jew disbelieves our eternal right to the land of israel as a gift from Hashem? To be disappointed by that is a swipe at you?
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Come on, calling me a liar is not offensive ? Insinuating that I will eventually betray this movement and slander you is not offensive ?
Saying you lied about something is not the same as calling you a liar!
And wasn't it YOU who established w this thread's opening post that you weren't being completely honest with that subject? So we can't ackowledge facts? Only you can say it but I can't mention it?
And I expressed hope that u wouldn't turn out like the others. I think such a reply is warranted given all that you unloaded in this thread.
You read too much into what I said that I did not actually write, it appears.
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KWR BT, why won't you stop quibbling ?
Pick whatever answer you want to questions 1 and 2, professor, and gloat over your dialectical triumph. Yeah, I'm a liar, I'm a traitor, I'm erratic, I'm incoherent, I'm simply NOT RELIABLE, Great Master Baal Teshuva.
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As regards the territory, Judea and Samaria and Gaza would be annexed. As regards the political institutions, a democratic state with constitutional rights, respecting both religious and secular Jews, open to the outside world. Pretty much a balanced Western-style democracy with strong checks and balances. True freedom of expression, a true multi-party system, an educational system that does not twist the minds of the youth, a truly independent judicial system, media networks that are not controlled by the left.
But the Arabs will have to go first because I obviously do not want them to use the demographic weapon and the majority rule in the political system to become a leading force in Israel. The Constitution will have to guarantee Jewish majority, I don't care whether the world barks "racism" or any other similar libel. Once most Arabs have gone, Israel would have to apply a strictly controlled policy of immigration, to ensure continued Jewish majority.
And with this ideal, how do ensure the next generations will not screw up? the vision you have is similar to beigen's back before he was prime minister. A secular democratic israel will only go through a vicious cycle that we currently see. Jews need the torah. even if the don't follow it 100 percent. can't just pick and chose like other religions who try to imitate judaism.
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And with this ideal, how do ensure the next generations will not screw up? the vision you have is similar to beigen's back before he was prime minister. A secular democratic israel will only go through a vicious cycle that we currently see. Jews need the torah. even if the don't follow it 100 percent. can't just pick and chose like other religions who try to imitate judaism.
Nothing can ensure that the next generations will not screw up because we have free will. We will always be under the attraction of yetser ha ra and we will constantly have to fight it while we are in this world.
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I believe that the best thing for a Jew who wants to ensure Jewish continuity is to study the story of Purim. I have learned more and more each year and I am sure that the answer to our problems can be learned from the Megillah.
Jewish unity is very important. We should not be trying to divide the Jewish people. We should be working together to understand each other and bringing ourselves to understand that our fate is only in the hands of Hashem. Our strength does not come from our own work, it comes straight from Hashem himself.
Even when it seems like the end is near things can turn around in a moment. Only because Jews have faith in Hashem and the Chesed/Kindness of Abraham do we merit the Rachaman/Mercy of Hashem. I truly see Hashems hand in the progress of history and I am comforted with the knowledge that Judaism will continue with me, or without me.
As Mordechai said to Esther in the palace:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16477/jewish/Chapter-4.htm
12. And they told Esther's words to Mordecai.
13. And Mordecai ordered to reply to Esther, "Do not imagine to yourself that you will escape in the king's house from among all the Jews.
14. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and rescue will arise for the Jews from elsewhere, and you and your father's household will perish; and who knows whether at a time like this you will attain the kingdom?"
15. Then Esther ordered to reply to Mordecai:
16. "Go, assemble all the Jews who are present in Shushan and fast on my behalf, and neither eat nor drink for three days, day and night; also I and my maidens will fast in a like manner; then I will go to the king contrary to the law, and if I perish, I perish."
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Nothing can ensure that the next generations will not screw up because we have free will. We will always be under the attraction of yetser ha ra and we will constantly have to fight it while we are in this world.
so why use free will to put a secular jewish state that can mislead jews that it's permissible to act secular or even hellenistic, Gd forbid? As jews we have a duty to build a fence around the torah so not to be tempted by doing the wrong thing. Let someone use free will in private so not to mislead others.
A religious state should not coerce one's private life.
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Even when it seems like the end is near things can turn around in a moment. Only because Jews have faith in Hashem and the Chesed/Kindness of Abraham do we merit the Rachaman/Mercy of Hashem.
But then, why did so many faithful European Jews, who believed in Hashem and the Chesed of Abraham, were gassed, while it was secular Israeli Jews imbued with the socialist ideology of David Ben Gurion and Golda Meir, many of them having little faith in Hashem, who survived another attempt to wipe out the Jewish people ? Doesn't this fact suggest that the survival of the Jews essentially depends on their ability to defend themselves militarily rather than on their strict religious observance ?
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so why use free will to put a secular jewish state that can mislead jews that it's permissible to act secular or even hellenistic, Gd forbid? As jews we have a duty to build a fence around the torah so not to be tempted by doing the wrong thing. Let someone use free will in private so not to mislead others.
A religious state should not coerce one's private life.
What do you mean by a religious state ?
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As far as marrying a non jew, the right thing to do is divorce her. I should add the right thing for a jew is live in eretz yisrael and be shomer shabat.i can acknowledge as a jew those two things are logically correct. Except I dont live in israel nor keep shabat appropriately. I have free will and hope in the future I have the strength to do those things. I think it's wrong to say, "I'll pick and choose since I'm a humanist." That misses the whole point of being a jew.
So as far as intermarrying, I can't tell you how to change it. You still love your wife and there other issues to deal with that are not simple nor practical, just like not getting up and making a huge move to israel.
Bottom line it's wrong to reject parts of judaism because it doesn't fit the way you live. Doing that is just plain islam.
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But then, why did so many faithful European Jews, who believed in Hashem and the Chesed of Abraham, were gassed, while it was secular Israeli Jews imbued with the socialist ideology of David Ben Gurion and Golda Meir, many of them having little faith in Hashem, who survived another attempt to wipe out the Jewish people ? Doesn't this fact suggest that the survival of the Jews essentially depends on their ability to defend themselves militarily rather than on their strict religious observance ?
No I think you are looking at the situation the wrong way. Look at the shaky ground that the Jews in the secular state are living in. This is not the 'Jewish state' which we have longed for, our parents had dreamed about. The current state is a bolshevik hell-hole which will not stand as it is. This state of Israel is a wicked state which is oppressing its Jews in order to keep the nations happy.
The Germans killed religious and irreligious Jews. There was no separation between the two. This is what happens when the Jewish people fall from the level which Hashem wants us to be at, to be the light unto the nations. During the 1920s-1930s the Jews in Germany were assimilating at an incredible rate. This did not prevent the German pigs from hating us even more. Antisemitism is a disease which has no rational explanation. They hate us if we are rich, if we are poor, if we are powerful, if we are powerless, if we are chosen, if we are assimilated. This was how King Achashveras and his henchman Haman were. The majority of the Jews in Shushan WERE NOT religious Jews. Most of them wanted to attend the party of the King, where they would be led down the path to destruction.
There are many good explanations of why Hashem allowed the Holocaust to happen. For some people it distanced them from him, for others it brought them closer. Hashem has become upset at his people, when this happens he allows the nations to smack us, and it is hoped that this will bring us back.
I feel that understanding this relationship with Hashem is essential to understanding Jewish history.
Please look at the material on Aish.com to learn some insights into the question 'Why the Holocaust?' @ http://www.aish.com/ho/
http://www.aish.com/ho/i/God_Is_Not_a_Babysitter.html
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108398/jewish/Belief-After-the-Holocaust.htm
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Faith versus tragedy
The conflict between tragedy and faith is not new. Anybody knowledgeable in Jewish history will realise that our people have undergone the most terrible persecutions and genocide at the hands of many oppressors. The believing Jew of 1940 knew about the pogroms, crusades, destruction of the Temples, he read out aloud on the Seder night, “In each generation they rise over us to destroy us”, and yet it did not shake his faith. Anti-Semitism was nothing new.
The same method by which the Jew of 1940 knew about the past and yet kept his faith could be employed after the Holocaust. The philosophical question of “Shall the Judge of the earth not do justice?” applies just as much to the seemingly meaningless suffering of an individual as to that of six million individuals. If it could be dealt with on an individual basis before the Holocaust, it could be dealt with in the same way afterwards. The difference is one of quantity, but the quality of the question remains the same.
In truth however, Hitler’s Final Solution was something novel in that few people believed that in the 20th Century, when civilisation had reached its intellectual and ethical peak, such genocide was conceivable. Public consensus, supported by the media, reassured us that we could no longer return to the Middle Ages. However, the philosophers and poets of Berlin, with their fine manners and high society, turned into the world’s greatest murderers. The Holocaust was not only perpetrated by monsters, but connived at by an entire nation numbering close to one hundred million people.
The world was silent. One may add, not only silent but on the whole passive, sometimes comfortable with what was taking place, and happy that it was not they, only others, who were carrying out the atrocities.
If anything the story of the Holocaust shows clearly that man may not rely upon his own intellect and his own feelings for righteousness and justice. Those with the highest diplomas and university degrees were often accomplices, if not direct perpetrators, of cold-blooded murder. Man must be accountable. The command, “Thou shalt not kill”, must be premised on “I am the L–rd your G–d.”
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But then, why did so many faithful European Jews, who believed in Hashem and the Chesed of Abraham, were gassed, while it was secular Israeli Jews imbued with the socialist ideology of David Ben Gurion and Golda Meir, many of them having little faith in Hashem, who survived another attempt to wipe out the Jewish people ? Doesn't this fact suggest that the survival of the Jews essentially depends on their ability to defend themselves militarily rather than on their strict religious observance ?
You know what? There are answers to this. First off, I believe the afterlife if these victims is so amazing that I don't worry about what happened. I just worry about how to prevent it from happening again. That's why I'm on jtf.
Secondly, if Gd were to reward only the righteous and punish the evil in this world, very few would choose free will to be righteous and just do it for a reward. I try to be the best jew possible because it is the right thing to do. I try not to do bad things because they are unhealthy for my spirit and well being.
Those who suffer and die and were good people are in a better place. Believing in this takes faith and having faith like this is good for my spirit and life. That's why Gd prescribed this thinking for jews like you and me
That's why we are required to believe in the world to come. It's to exercise faith throughout our lives.
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What do you mean by a religious state ?
The constitution of the jewish state should be the torah, talmud, and have a sanhedrin (a group of 70 torah scholars) with a monarch who is not above the law but to serve Hashem and His people of israel. This should be the jewish eventuality. Dont know how and when or who.
However in a current ideal state if religious, those who choose to be secular at home should not be coerced or forced to be religious. Better to encourage it.
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As far as marrying a non jew, the right thing to do is divorce her.
Sorry Dr Dan but I have to say I strongly disagree on this. I would find it utterly despicable to suddenly dump my wife although we have a daughter and we love each other just because she is not Jewish and I have got back to my Jewish roots and identity since we married. There is no way I am ever going to do such a thing unless I start losing any sense of good and evil.
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KWR BT, why won't you stop quibbling ?
Pick whatever answer you want to questions 1 and 2, professor, and gloat over your dialectical triumph. Yeah, I'm a liar, I'm a traitor, I'm erratic, I'm incoherent, I'm simply NOT RELIABLE, Great Master Baal Teshuva.
I never said any of this stuff. You saw something in my post that wasn't there and you reacted irrationally because you're in a defensive posture. Why I'm "quibbling" is because I think you misinterpreted my comment as an attack on you and I don't intend to attack you.
Why did you put all those terms into my mouth which I never said about you? Is it because since I'm a religious Jew on the forum you perceive me as an enemy from this point forward? If so I think you should reconsider.
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Sorry Dr Dan but I have to say I strongly disagree on this. I would find it utterly despicable to suddenly dump my wife although we have a daughter and we love each other just because she is not Jewish and I have got back to my Jewish roots and identity since we married. There is no way I am ever going to do such a thing unless I start losing any sense of good and evil.
Did you read what I wrote after that? Read it again.
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You know, its bad enough when I botch up by saying the wrong things or not being sensitive enough to someone etc, but I really don't need someone to create even more mistakes (and hateful things) which I never even said or thought and attribute them to me like I'm some cartoon character whose words can simply be anticipated and made up by anyone.
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You know, its bad enough when I botch up by saying the wrong things or not being sensitive enough to someone etc, but I really don't need someone to create even more mistakes (and hateful things) which I never even said or thought and attribute them to me like I'm some cartoon character whose words can simply be anticipated and made up by anyone.
Kwrbt, take it easy. sometimes we choose words or sentences that are interpreted to be attacks when the intention is not to attack.
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You know what? There are answers to this. First off, I believe the afterlife if these victims is so amazing that I don't worry about what happened. I just worry about how to prevent it from happening again. That's why I'm on jtf.
Secondly, if Gd were to reward only the righteous and punish the evil in this world, very few would choose free will to be righteous and just do it for a reward. I try to be the best jew possible because it is the right thing to do. I try not to do bad things because they are unhealthy for my spirit and well being.
Those who suffer and die and were good people are in a better place. Believing in this takes faith and having faith like this is good for my spirit and life. That's why Gd prescribed this thinking for jews like you and me
That's why we are required to believe in the world to come. It's to exercise faith throughout our lives.
I hope what you are saying is true, although we ought to be careful that sometimes we assume that some things are true just because that is how we want reality to be, but it might be only an illusion, a tale we need to tell ourselves because the truth is too hard to confront.
I want to believe what you are saying too because I just can't stand thinking about the possibility that all these people died for no purpose.
More generally, I believe that there is a world to come in which there is true justice, because otherwise life just doesn't make sense.
However, if you worry about how to prevent a genocide from happening again, I suppose you agree that it is essential for Jews to make sure they keep up a well-equipped, well-trained and disciplined army, with a good strategy and a fierce determination to survive.
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Did you read what I wrote after that? Read it again.
I thought the sentence I quoted meant you think that I must leave my wife but I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.
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I hope what you are saying is true, although we ought to be careful that sometimes we assume that some things are true just because that is how we want reality to be, but it might be only an illusion, a tale we need to tell ourselves because the truth is too hard to confront.
I want to believe what you are saying too because I just can't stand thinking about the possibility that all these people died for no purpose.
More generally, I believe that there is a world to come in which there is true justice, because otherwise life just doesn't make sense.
However, if you worry about how to prevent a genocide from happening again, I suppose you agree that it is essential for Jews to make sure they keep up a well-equipped, well-trained and disciplined army, with a good strategy and a fierce determination to survive.
I think that it is clear that most JTF Jews who support Rabbi Kahanes message are all for a strong powerful Jewish military which is capable of defeating all enemies..
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Yaacov is your wife pro Israel i know that sounds like a dumb question but my Brothers ex wife was Jewish and she turned out to be extremely anti Israel.My Brother had to divorce she was worse then the JStreet people
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I hope what you are saying is true, although we ought to be careful that sometimes we assume that some things are true just because that is how we want reality to be, but it might be only an illusion, a tale we need to tell ourselves because the truth is too hard to confront.
I want to believe what you are saying too because I just can't stand thinking about the possibility that all these people died for no purpose.
More generally, I believe that there is a world to come in which there is true justice, because otherwise life just doesn't make sense.
However, if you worry about how to prevent a genocide from happening again, I suppose you agree that it is essential for Jews to make sure they keep up a well-equipped, well-trained and disciplined army, with a good strategy and a fierce determination to survive.
On your first point, that is the definition of faith. After the shoah an israel was born and still survives despite the odds. So because of that, I have faith in Gd an invisible "beyond" that a rationalist humanist can't prove His existence. Heaven and moshiach are the other two which I used to struggle with. But without those two, this world spiritually makes no sense.
And yes, have to be smart and well equipped to have a strong army. But guess what? We're still out numbered. Still need torah. Still need Hashem with that equipment. We need to survive, right? We have to fight for something other than surviving. Aren't we a people? But what is our nation? we aren't a race. I culture came from somewhere. It's the only thing that works for us because when we dio something differently that isn't our culture we end up like the 6 million who perished or like the slaves of egypt or the jews of persia, or what could be coming our way in america.
in our little brains in our little made up world we have no foresight. But with torah we have hindsight to help our people and ourselves for the future.
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I never said any of this stuff. You saw something in my post that wasn't there and you reacted irrationally because you're in a defensive posture. Why I'm "quibbling" is because I think you misinterpreted my comment as an attack on you and I don't intend to attack you.
Why did you put all those terms into my mouth which I never said about you? Is it because since I'm a religious Jew on the forum you perceive me as an enemy from this point forward? If so I think you should reconsider.
KWR BT,
Religious Jews are NOT my ennemies, I respect them and even admire many of them, starting with Rabbi Meir Kahane !
Your post WAS an attack. If you fail to understand that I feel attacked when you call me a liar and suggest that I am a traitor, what can I say ?
But why don't we just get over this ? As far as I'm concerned, there won't be any hard feeling. It's already past us. I find many of your posts very interesting and I do want to maintain friendly relations with you.
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I thought the sentence I quoted meant you think that I must leave my wife but I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.
All I said it's the right thing to do like being shomer shabat or making aliyah is the right thing to do. I don't do the last two. I acknowledge its wrong that I don't do these things, but I have to live my life and one day Gd will give me the strength to do the right thing.
And I realize that you love your wife. I don't fault you for feeling disturbed about the concept of divorce and I leave it at that since I have no life experience in such a thing and I empathize with you. I wish I knew of a right answer, but I dont have one.
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KWR BT,
Religious Jews are NOT my ennemies, I respect them and even admire many of them, starting with Rabbi Meir Kahane !
Your post WAS an attack. If you fail to understand that I feel attacked when you call me a liar and suggest that I am a traitor, what can I say ?
But why don't we just get over this ? As far as I'm concerned, there won't be any hard feeling. It's already past us. I find many of your posts very interesting and I do want to maintain friendly relations with you.
I suggested you were a traitor? Where?
Again it was YOU who stated to the forum that you were not being honest. That doesn't make you a liar but it does mean that you lied about a particular thing (or things). If you deny that you lied then there is nothing to talk about but I thought you had made that pretty clear that you're not denying that. So why is talking about it forbidden? I do not like when people misrepresent themselves here because many times it turns out really rotten with such people. So I was surprised you were doing that (because I like you) and hope you won't get a vandetta against JTF like others have - traitor or no traitor.
There's plenty to speak about regarding the rest of what you wrote but we cannot do that if you'll keep putting words in my mouth. - which is actually one of the things I take issue with about your original post as a whole. I believe you are artificially making this into a religious/secular divide where there really isn't one necessarily.
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Yaacov is your wife pro Israel i know that sounds like a dumb question but my Brothers ex wife was Jewish and she turned out to be extremely anti Israel.My Brother had to divorce she was worse then the JStreet people
No it's not a dumb question. It's actually an embarrassing one for me because I say she is a wonderful person and it is true to a very large extent EXCEPT that she is not enough pro-Israel. She is definitely not left-wing on this crucial issue, thank G-d, but she doesn't want to get too involved. She is rather worried about my strong political views. She finds it hard to believe some of the things I tell her, although they are true.
It is not easy for me.
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No it's not a dumb question. It's actually an embarrassing one for me because I say she is a wonderful person and it is true to a very large extent EXCEPT that she is not enough pro-Israel. She is definitely not left-wing on this crucial issue, thank G-d, but she doesn't want to get too involved. She is rather worried about my strong political views. She finds it hard to believe some of the things I tell her, although they are true.
It is not easy for me.
Oh because my brothers wife after he married he found out that she was extremely anti Israel
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I suggested you were a traitor? Where?
Again it was YOU who stated to the forum that you were not being honest. That doesn't make you a liar but it does mean that you lied about a particular thing (or things). If you deny that you lied then there is nothing to talk about but I thought you had made that pretty clear that you're not denying that. So why is talking about it forbidden? I do not like when people misrepresent themselves here because many times it turns out really rotten with such people. So I was surprised you were doing that (because I like you) and hope you won't get a vandetta against JTF like others have - traitor or no traitor.
There's plenty to speak about regarding the rest of what you wrote but we cannot do that if you'll keep putting words in my mouth. - which is actually one of the things I take issue with about your original post as a whole. I believe you are artificially making this into a religious/secular divide where there really isn't one necessarily.
Here we go again... What exactly is the difference between saying that someone is a liar and that someone lied about particular things ? I don't recognize you, KWR BT. Do you really want this nonsense to go on ? Why won't you stop ?
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Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and feelings. In any case, JTF is a great forum to debate.
Have a nice shabbat.
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Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and feelings. In any case, JTF is a great forum to debate.
Have a nice shabbat.
Shabbat Shalom!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm0tkU6p2Qk
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Good Shabbos
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Here we go again... What exactly is the difference between saying that someone is a liar and that someone lied about particular things ? I don't recognize you, KWR BT. Do you really want this nonsense to go on ? Why won't you stop ?
I really cannot comprehend how you don't see a difference.
I'm not asking this to be a jerk, I ask because you are from france from what I remember - is english your first language? I think its pretty clear there's a big difference. If someone comes to a loved one and says I'm sorry, so-and-so but I haven't been completely honest about xyz, then explains what the reason was and why they didn't say it all openly before, etc... that is not the same thing as going to someone and saying I'm sorry so-and-so but I'm a liar. Yet they did in fact lie about xyz for some reason they wish to explain. Yaakov, what is the big deal? Did you know that Yaakov (son of Isaac) lied to his father once? I don't think that makes him "a liar" nor does it make him a bad person G-d forbid.
It seems you're just not understanding what I mean by my comments.
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I don't understand how Yaakov Mendel was not being honest. When did he ever say he was very religious?
KWRBT, I think what you might be referring to is Yaakov's question to Chaim on Ask JTF a while ago about convincing non-religious people he knows to be pro-Israel for secular reasons (of which there are several).
Anyway I like both Yaakov's and KWRBT's posts a lot.
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I don't understand how Yaakov Mendel was not being honest. When did he ever say he was very religious?
KWRBT, I think what you might be referring to is Yaakov's question to Chaim on Ask JTF a while ago about convincing non-religious people he knows to be pro-Israel for secular reasons (of which there are several).
Anyway I like both Yaakov's and KWRBT's posts a lot.
Yes, I did clarify earlier in this thread, I was speaking about when he said he didn't like that argument because it wouldn't appeal to his secular friends. But really he doesn't find it appealing himself. That's really all I was talking about in this whole thread but my initial post was taken somewhere else I never intended it.