JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: muman613 on March 28, 2011, 05:47:28 PM
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I find this story very embarrassing...
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2011/03/south-koreans-having-mandatory-talmud.html
Nearly 50 million South Koreans are now studying Talmud every day. And they don't use Artscroll.
Close to 50 million people live in South Korea, and everyone learns Gemara (Talmud) in school. "We tried to understand why the Jews are geniuses, and we came to the conclusion that it is because they study Talmud," said the Korean ambassador to Israel. And this is how "Rav Papa" became a more well known scholar in Korea than in Israel.
It is doubtful if the Amoraic scholars, Abbaye and Rava imagined their discussions of Jewish law in the Beit Midrash in Babylon would be taught hundreds of years later in East Asia. Yet it turns out that the laws of an "egg born on a holiday" ("ביצה שנולדה ביום טוב") is actually very interesting to the South Koreans who have required that Talmud study be part of their compulsory school curriculum.
Almost every home in South Korea now contains a Korean-translated Talmud. But unlike in Israel, the Korean mothers teach the Talmud to their children. In a country of close to 49 million people who believe in Buddhism and Christianity, there are more people who read the Talmud - or at least own their own copy at home - more than in the Jewish state. Much more.
"So we too will become geniuses"
"We were very curious about the high academic achievements of the Jews," explains Israel's ambassador to South Korea, Young Sam Mah, that was a host on the program "culture today."
"Jews have a high percentage of Nobel laureates in all fields: literature, science and economics. This is a remarkable achievement. We tried to understand what is the secret of the Jewish people? How they - more than other people - are able to reach those impressive accomplishments? Why are Jews so intelligent? The conclusion we arrived at is that one of your secrets is that you study the Talmud."
"Jews study the Talmud at a young age, and it helps them, in our opinion, to develop mental capabilities. This understanding led us to teach our children as well. We believe that if we teach our children Talmud, they will also become geniuses. This is what stands behind the rationale of introducing Talmud Study to our school curriculum."
I can't guarantee it will help them, but I can tell you that it's something we Jews have suspected for years.
http://muqata.blogspot.com/2011/03/talmud-study-now-mandatory-in-south.html
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I've read recently that Chinese are interested in the Jewish "secrete" and they sent an expedition of teachers and academics to Israel where they received lectures about Mikra, Gmara etc.
I think it's interesting and I would like to see how the Koreans study in practice and what are the results. I am sure talmudic logic would seem very odd to them.
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BTW, what ashame it is that Talmud study is mandatory in Korea while in Israel our pupils in the secular schools are completely ignorant about it.
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It's a little bit funny because... Don't the Koreans realize that the vast majority of Jews who become Nobel Laureates are the secular educated, assimilated, reformist Jews who probably never even saw a Talmud in their life, let alone learned any of it. Because of this, I view the Koreans as not too bright, although they do have a good idea investigate this matter and see if it has to do with the Jewish intelligence. But it seems rather than investigate, they have simply adopted a position without proof, and their basis for that position is humorously flimsy.
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I say kol hakavod to S.korea
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American constitutional law is based on talmudic logic.
Just to read the talmud might help in making someone think smarter, but if he doesn't practice the righteousness that it teaches, then really you only have a country filled with smart people who are competing against Gd's justice.
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All the "frum" frawning over this earthquaking item makes me literally sick. In fact Gentiles are forbidden from learning oral law for precisely this reason: they see the methodism but not the divinity. Do you all lack self esteem to the point you need THIS to reaffirm your faith? pure insanity
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All the "frum" frawning over this earthquaking item makes me literally sick. In fact Gentiles are forbidden from learning oral law for precisely this reason: they see the methodism but not the divinity. Do you all lack self esteem to the point you need THIS to reaffirm your faith? pure insanity
I did not post if for any reason other than to motive Jews to learn and teach Talmud. I don't condone the fact that they are reading it. But I doubt that they have the wisdom to truly understand it as the Jewish people understand it.
It is just very interesting...
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Yes, it is interesting how others are more interested than the Jews themselves.
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Yes, it is interesting how others are more interested than the Jews themselves.
'interesting' is a sad word to use... The whole story, as I originally said, is embarassing...
I find this story very embarrassing...
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All the "frum" frawning over this earthquaking item makes me literally sick. In fact Gentiles are forbidden from learning oral law for precisely this reason: they see the methodism but not the divinity. Do you all lack self esteem to the point you need THIS to reaffirm your faith? pure insanity
I am not sure you are right in this case. It is unlike the case of academic Jew-haters who "study" the Jewish texts for the sole purpose of desecrating the Torah and destroying halacha. The Koreans are indeed interested in the methodolog, but do you know of any halachic guidance to keep it a secrete ?
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I am not sure you are right in this case. It is unlike the case of academic Jew-haters who "study" the Jewish texts for the sole purpose of desecrating the Torah and destroying halacha. The Koreans are indeed interested in the methodolog, but do you know of any halachic guidance to keep it a secrete ?
I do believe that the Oral law was intended to be kept by the Jewish people. It is our pride and our heritage, and it was given directly to Moses and passed down through the Mesorah. I have heard it said that the Oral Law should not be taught to non-Jews. But I am not sure what actual Halakahs are involved...
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As a non-Jew I do admire the book.
If I wanted the Jews money and his genius, even if I don't convert or even if I do a phony conversion, just following the rules and discipline I would be more successful.
But I also believe that this would be true only if I put it to good use otherwise I'll end up with a book like the koran.
After all mohammed stole from the bibile and come up with that ranting.
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Anyone can read the talmud, but to be a jew, you need to have the soul of a jew.
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They are not really studying the Talmud update http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/03/more-on-korean-talmud-studies-not-quite.html
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They are not really studying the Talmud update http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/03/more-on-korean-talmud-studies-not-quite.html
Whew... I am happy to hear that... I could not imagine that they would study the Talmud like the Jews have studied and taught the Talmud..
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Whew... I am happy to hear that... I could not imagine that they would study the Talmud like the Jews have studied and taught the Talmud..
I think it's more like they're studying bit and pieces of the Midrash
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So, just how do I get this "Jewish soul"?
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So, just how do I get this "Jewish soul"?
Forget about soul, want to get rich ?read this book: “The Jewish People’s Bible for Business and Managing the World”
A best seller in China ;)
http://www.theblogofrecord.com/2009/01/19/the-jewish-peoples-bible-for-business-and-managing-the-world/
edit: another source: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3531164,00.html
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Lol. To amuse themselves with a few talmudic sayings as pure entertainment like a card collecting hobby or a game of hopskotch or "nice literature" is exactly how the chachamim in their teachings urge the goyim NOT to treat the Torah in this aloof manner and it is this very offense for which the sages say such a person is deserving of death penalty. (Not that we put him to death legally but its a phrase also used to convey the depravity of a given act to say the person deserves death).
This is precisely what it means when they say it is forbidden to teach the nonJews Torah! That's a conditional statement which applies only to those nonJews who wish to look at it as entertainment and hobby but not to live their lives in devotion to its teachings and principles. It sounds like the koreans are doing exactly the former! :o
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So, just how do I get this "Jewish soul"?
Either be born a jew or convert
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Why do so many threads which have an interesting point of view get blown away to smithereens by people on this forum who must destroy everything they touch? I am not speaking about everyone on this thread, but I'm amazed that even in people's love or interest in our culture, there are those who just want to kill kill kill
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Where is there any comment on killing?
The bottom line of this thread is that some people felt that it was nice that somebody accepted us. Except we read between the lines. We should only seek acceptance from Gd.
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Where is there any comment on killing?
The bottom line of this thread is that some people felt that it was nice that somebody accepted us. Except we read between the lines. We should only seek acceptance from Gd.
Hi Dr. Dan,
I didn't mean 'kill kill kill' in the literal sense.
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Why do so many threads which have an interesting point of view get blown away to smithereens by people on this forum who must destroy everything they touch? I am not speaking about everyone on this thread, but I'm amazed that even in people's love or interest in our culture, there are those who just want to kill kill kill
lol, I really hope you're not referring to my comment. It is well known that the chachamim say that it is forbidden to teach the gentile Torah (presumably Oral Torah), and that to do so as an academic hobby rather than treating it with the proper reverence it deserves is one is deserving of death (again, we don't put them to death, it just means they are very against the perturbed act).
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Here is an answer from a Rabbi at Yeshiva.org:
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?id=449
Question:
Under what conditions may one teach non Jews Torah? Does it matter if it is written or oral Torah? halacha , hashkafa etc..? What if one’s job depends on it [i.e. a professor, a "chaplain" who must speak to Jewsh and no Jewish inmates, patients all at once ?
Thank you
Answer:
You can teach a non-Jew the laws of the Torah specific to his observing the seven Noachide laws or those moral obligations that are universal to all mankind. It would seem reasonable that these should be the subjects addressed by a chaplain speaking to a mixed audience. You are also allowed- in defense of the Torah- to answer a non-Jew’s questions or criticisms regarding Judaism (Shu”t Yabiya Omer 2 Yoreh Deah 17). If you are teaching a Jew Torah it is unnecessary for you to break off if you see that a non-Jew is listening in.
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This also may shed some light on this prohibition..
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n108.shtml#03
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:52:21 +0200
From: Daniel Eidensohn <[email protected]>
Subject: Teaching Torah to non-Jews
Rabbi Bleich - Contemporary Halachic Problems II chapter 16 pp 311-340
has a very good discussion of the issue - especially the issue of giving
Torah classes on the radio.
Igros Moshe has a number of tshuvos see Yad Moshe page 377 under the
category of Talmud Torah - in particular E.H. IV # page 54 concerning
teaching in a Jewish school where many of the students are not Jews and
Y.D. IV #38.10 page 255 concerning translating seforim and Y.D. III #90
page 332 concerning teaching Torah to a group of Jews when a non-Jew
is present.
Also of relevance is the extensive discussion in Rav Dovid Yosef's
edition of the Rambam's tshuvos #50.
Of interest -- especially since it seems not to be cited by anyone --
is the Chasam Sofer to Chullin 33. He also does not cite the Rambam's
tshuva. The Rambam (Hilchos Melachim 10:10) states that if a ben noach
wants to perform one of the 613 mitzvos to get reward -- we don't stop
him from doing it correctly. However, the Rambam (Hilchos Melachim 10:9)
states that if a non Jew wants to keep Shabbos, learn Torah or create
a religious obligation for himself -- he deserves being punished from
Heaven. The Chasam Sofer (Chullin 33) explains the apparent contradiction
by saying that the Rambam holds there are two types of non Jews. A Ben
Noach is one who has accepted not to worship idols while an Akum has
not. The Ben Noach is allowed to keep Shabbos, study Torah and do the
other mitzvos. He also notes that whether it is permitted for a nonJew
to learn Torah is apparently a dispute in the gemora itself [Chagiga 13a,
Sanhedrin 59a, Avoda Zara 59a and Nedarim 31a] and that the Rambam rules
according to the lenient opinion stated in Nedarim 31a since this section
of Shas was composed more recently than the rest of Shas.
In sum - there are definitely hetairim for a wide range of Torah
activities directed at Jews even though non-Jews might also learn as
well as teaching non-Jews directly in certain limited circumstances.
Daniel Eidensohn
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If anyone cares, here is the relevant portion of Avodah Zarah 59a:
http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_59.html
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R. Johanan said: A heathen who studies the Torah deserves death, for it is written, Moses commanded us a law for an inheritance;2 it is our inheritance, not theirs.3 Then why is this not included in the Noachian laws? — On the reading morasha [an inheritance] he steals it; on the reading me'orasah [betrothed], he is guilty as one who violates a betrothed maiden, who is stoned.4 An objection is raised: R. Meir used to say. Whence do we know that even a heathen who studies the Torah is as a High Priest? From the verse, [Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments:] which, if man do, he shall live in them.5 Priests, Levites, and Israelites are not mentioned, but men: hence thou mayest learn that even a heathen who studies6 the Torah is as a High Priest! — That refers to their own seven laws.7
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Very good info Muman, thanks for that. I have great respect for Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn. You should check out his blog sometime... it's at daattorah.blogspot.com
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I think there must have been additional context here that is contextually relevant. It should never be a sin to learn from the wisdom of others as long as that knowledge is used for good, and not evil.
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I think there must have been additional context here that is contextually relevant. It should never be a sin to learn from the wisdom of others as long as that knowledge is used for good, and not evil.
I think that is the point of these sources, and that is how Rabbi Bar Hayim explained them to me in a shiur.
However, the sages viewed it as an evil thing to make light of the Torah as if it is a fanciful work of literature or some such. That was the point I was trying to make, but it's very difficult over a forum to convey what I was trying to say.
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Kahane-Was-Right-BT
said
I think that is the point of these sources, and that is how Rabbi Bar Hayim explained them to me in a shiur.
However, the sages viewed it as an evil thing to make light of the Torah as if it is a fanciful work of literature or some such. That was the point I was trying to make, but it's very difficult over a forum to convey what I was trying to say.
Since you are in touch with Rabbi Bar Hayim, I would be interested in hearing his opinion on the following issue.
If a gentile learns a small amount of Talmud, in order to gain respect for the Torah and for G-d's chosen people. Would that be permissible? Just like the Talmudic sages occasionally stated a small amount of Torah wisdom to non-jewish heretics in order to rebut their claims and prove that Torah is true.