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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mord on September 03, 2011, 08:30:17 AM

Title: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: mord on September 03, 2011, 08:30:17 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/israeli-rabbi-pairs-gays-lesbians-061904417.html   



 :laugh: :laugh:

SHILO, West Bank (AP) — Rabbi Arele Harel offers an unconventional solution for Orthodox Jewish gay men who want to raise a conventional family: He fixes them up with Orthodox lesbians.

His matchmaking service, which has just gone online, has met criticism on opposing fronts. Orthodox Jewish rabbis say Harel should be doing more to encourage gays and lesbians to try to change their sexual orientation. Liberal religious gay groups see Harel's approach as a ploy to suppress homosexuality.

The matchmaking presents an array of challenges. The relationship may be loveless. The partners may be tempted to seek sexual satisfaction outside the marriage. And the couple may need assistance to get pregnant. But Harel insists he just wants to help people have children, an important commandment of Jewish law.

"The main aspiration here is parenthood," said Harel, 36, from his home in the Jewish West Bank settlement of Shilo. "It allows them to become parents in a way that is permitted by religious Jewish law and prevents a conflict between their religious world and their sexual world."

Most rabbis encourage gays to suppress their attractions, abstain from gay sex or undergo therapy to try to go straight. Harel believes some gays can alter their sexual orientation through therapy, and insists many do. The American Psychological Association has declared no solid evidence exists that such change is likely.

Harel said his method is meant for those who can't change, yet want to remain observant and have children.

Harel began matching lesbians and gay men six years ago, he said, because he recognized a "deep distress" among people "facing a dead end road."

More recently, Kamoha, a religious gay group, began receiving inquiries from gay men and lesbian women about this approach. Kamoha linked up with Harel and last month began publicizing the initiative on its Web site.

Harel says he has wed 12 couples, and several have had children. More than 80 people expressed interest in the matchmaking service when it was publicized by word-of-mouth, and since it went online two weeks ago, Harel says he has received dozens of emails.

"Rabbi Harel introduced us and there was a good initial click," wrote Sari and Avi, a couple Harel set up, in a testimonial on Kamoha's site. "It's not love. It's chemistry, a sense of understanding and partnership, trust and appreciation."

Harel was unable to persuade the couples he has already wed to speak to the media. But Kamoha referred The Associated Press to a man who has applied for Harel's services, a 35-year-old Orthodox Jew in the closet.

He has had casual sex with men but desperately wants to raise a family. He said he has dated numerous straight women; none of the relationships led to marriage.

"It is a risky experiment but there is no other choice," said the man, who refused to give his name because he is hiding his sexual identity.

He said he was willing to forgo love if it means being able to have children. He wants to try to refrain from seeing men when he is married but would discuss the issue with his wife if that changed, he said.

Harel said as long as both parties are aware the other is dating, it would not be adultery in such a union. He said the same would not be true for a straight couple because they are sexually compatible and have no reason to look elsewhere. Jewish law forbids adultery.

Harel contends that gay and lesbian partners learn to love each other once children arrive. "Their love is based on parenthood. Parenthood is the glue and it's strong."

Harel leaves it to the couple's discretion whether to divulge their sexual identities to their children but he recommends they consult with a professional first.

Potential candidates email Harel, who meets with them to assess if they are emotionally ready to be fixed up. Harel then picks a suitable match and introduces the parties. They are put in touch with therapists who are to assist them in their new life. Once they are married, they each pay around $400 for Harel's service.

Israel's secular majority has largely embraced the Western gay rights movement that has led to six cities, among them New York, legalizing same-sex marriage.

There is no gay marriage in Israel primarily because there is no civil marriage and all weddings must be done through the Jewish rabbinate, which does not marry gays and considers homosexuality a sin and a violation of Jewish law.

Gay adoption is officially illegal but some couples get around the law and surrogacy is an option for many same-sex couples. The partner of a parent can adopt the child of his or her partner. There are campaigns to allow for civil marriage which could eventually pave the way for legalizing gay marriage but Israel is far from both.

Still, Tel Aviv is considered one of the most gay-friendly cities in the world, with annual pride parades filling streets and rocking into late hours.

Among Orthodox Jews, homosexuality generally is considered an abomination. Gay observant Jews may be ostracized by their families and many opt to hide their sexual orientation. Only the more liberal streams of Judaism embrace gay couples and even gay rabbis.

In recent years, a number of religious gay groups have emerged, joining pride parades and demanding to be accepted while not going so far as to ask for religious recognition for their relationships.

The liberal religious gay group Havruta opposes Harel's approach, saying it seeks to "erase" homosexuals from the Orthodox community.

"They are saying, 'Changing them isn't possible, but how else can we hide their existence? If we can't fix them then let's set them up with lesbians,'" said the group's spokesman, Daniel Jonas.

Yonatan Gher, the head of the Jerusalem Open House, a gay community center and advocacy group, said he doesn't judge the lifestyle choice Harel advocates, but hopes young religious homosexuals don't feel pressured into choosing it.

Rabbis have criticized Harel's method because it doesn't try to discourage gays and lesbians from seeking to change their sexual orientation.

"There is an alternative," said Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, from the Jewish West Bank settlement of Beit El. "When people hear voices that say you won't succeed (to change), they think, 'Why bother trying?'"
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Rubystars on September 03, 2011, 08:38:12 AM
It sounds to me like he's setting them up for adultery. So then when they engage in homosexual activity they'll be getting two sins at a time.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: mord on September 03, 2011, 09:04:39 AM
It sounds to me like he's setting them up for adultery. So then when they engage in homosexual activity they'll be getting two sins at a time.
True he hasn't thought it out to it's conclusion
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Rubystars on September 03, 2011, 11:31:25 AM
True he hasn't thought it out to it's conclusion

He should have. I didn't think it was supposed to be his job to double people's sins.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Zelhar on September 03, 2011, 02:21:12 PM
On the face of it, I don't think what rabbi Harel is doing is so bad. He is dealing with reality. It makes more sense to match gay with a lesbian than gay to a heterosexual.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 03, 2011, 02:23:39 PM
If this somehow causes some of these sick people to wake up and see the blessing they are getting, it's a good thing.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 04, 2011, 04:49:53 AM
Mord is there some reason you are laughing other people's misfortune?

I've read about this idea before and I'm happy to see that religious Jewish people with attraction to opposite sex are trying their best to function in society (in jewish society that means observing the commandments and raising a family - by man and wife- to do the same) despite very hard challenges facing them.  They are not throwing off the yoke of heaven due to their feelings and proclivities and that is to be applauded.

For those saying this causes adultery, nonsense.   A rabbi cannot tell a person (any type of person) "I forbid you to get married because you might cheat on your wife."  If a person wants to get married and have a family the person will do so and no one can stop them on theoretical predictions.

The goal of this marriage arrangement is that the two parents/spouses will NOT cheat on each other (same goal as all pairings), they will try to help each other avoid pitfalls, being able to relate to the situation of the other, and most important of all its based on honesty and full disclosure between the couple, which unfortunately cannot be said of many "shidduchim" for various reasons.   And since these people are determined to be married and live the "normal" Jewish life, if this type of arrangement could not happen, G-d forbid that they would deceive someone into marriage without disclosing to them their inclinations.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: cjd on September 04, 2011, 05:38:27 AM
It sounds like a nice idea and it might even work for some of the people who really have strong self  control... The problem here is the Rabbi is producing a slippery slope for people like this...  Many of the people might make a good old try but at the end of the day if they just can't do it would go out and get a little action on the side or worse still toss in the towel completely... I honestly think that the children produced in relationships like this will be the losers.... I could vision a lot of crazy living situations for children of people like this... Heather has two mommies and one daddy, two daddies and one mommy or even two daddies and two mommies... The Rabbi deserves an A for effort but I think at the end of the day some years down the line if he were to look  honestly at the results of this he would not be satisfied.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Rubystars on September 04, 2011, 06:15:56 AM
I just don't see how a marriage between two people who are not attracted to each other can work. Do they have a vomit bucket next to the bed in case one of them is ovecome by how grossed out they are by their marital duties?
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Zelhar on September 04, 2011, 06:52:38 AM
I just don't see how a marriage between two people who are not attracted to each other can work. Do they have a vomit bucket next to the bed in case one of them is ovecome by how grossed out they are by their marital duties?
It can work if they want it to work. Allot of marriages between heterosexual couples are not based on attraction.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Rubystars on September 04, 2011, 07:08:41 AM
It can work if they want it to work.

Maybe. I think this would work better if they had bisexual tendencies though and were not repulsed by heterosexual activity.

Quote
Allot of marriages between heterosexual couples are not based on attraction.

True enough but I find that to be sad really.

Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: JTFenthusiast on September 04, 2011, 01:49:56 PM
I think this is a great service for those who want to partake in it.  I admire these people for strongly seeking out a way to have children
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: cjd on September 05, 2011, 04:09:04 AM
I think this is a great service for those who want to partake in it.  I admire these people for strongly seeking out a way to have children
I am not so sure people like this having children is such a great thing... They should at least give it a year or two of being together before they do... I could see many of the people getting into this situation just to have kids.... Why have kids if you know the home they are coming into will soon be a broken one... As I said in a prior post this sounds like a nice idea at face value but the idea has several underlying problems.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: syyuge on September 05, 2011, 04:42:11 AM
It appears to be a rat like existence.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Rubystars on September 05, 2011, 06:06:26 AM
It appears to be a rat like existence.

Most of your posts are one liners that almost never make very much sense. This one is no exception.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: syyuge on September 05, 2011, 06:07:49 AM
Most of your posts are one liners that almost never make very much sense. This one is no exception.

They are the essence.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 05, 2011, 11:11:40 AM
Most of your posts are one liners that almost never make very much sense. This one is no exception.

 :::D

Sometimes I think they do make sense actually, but this one was exceptionally incomprehensible.  IMO
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: syyuge on September 05, 2011, 12:28:53 PM
:::D

Sometimes I think they do make sense actually, but this one was exceptionally incomprehensible.  IMO

A rat like existence, where an instant non-zoological observer, can not understand as to who is the male or female or to who is doing what  and why and who are the parents or not the parents either social or biological and so on and so forth.
 ;D   
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 05, 2011, 05:25:18 PM
A rat like existence, where an instant non-zoological observer, can not understand as to who is the male or female or to who is doing what  and why and who are the parents or not the parents either social or biological and so on and so forth.
 ;D   

I'm pretty sure it's quite clear that the lesbian mother is the female, and the homosexually inclined man is the male.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 05, 2011, 07:41:06 PM
Most of your posts are one liners that almost never make very much sense. This one is no exception.
Chillax, Syyuge is a good member who has never done anything offensive. I think he means that homosexuality is a rat-like existence and I completely agree with him.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: edu on September 06, 2011, 01:11:37 AM
Just to make it clear to those with a poor background.
Male Homosexuality is a death penalty crime in Judaism.
Just as a person who has a strong desire to steal is not excused for his robbery, so too, someone
who forever reason has a strong desire for Homosexuality is not excused because of his desires from blame for the sin!
Groups that claim otherwise are liars or reject some of the basic foundation beliefs of Judaism.
Female Homosexuality is also forbidden, (at least for Jews) but is not a death penalty crime.
Point #2. Judaism obligates men to get married and have children.
There are Jews that purely for the sake of fulfilling the commandment, get married without consideration of attraction to their spouse. Although I have a proof, that ideally Judaism desires that men do not find their spouses to be ugly or repulsive.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Zelhar on September 06, 2011, 05:41:08 AM
Just to make it clear to those with a poor background.
Male Homosexuality is a death penalty crime in Judaism.
Just as a person who has a strong desire to steal is not excused for his robbery, so too, someone
who forever reason has a strong desire for Homosexuality is not excused because of his desires from blame for the sin!
Groups that claim otherwise are liars or reject some of the basic foundation beliefs of Judaism.
Female Homosexuality is also forbidden, (at least for Jews) but is not a death penalty crime.
Point #2. Judaism obligates men to get married and have children.
There are Jews that purely for the sake of fulfilling the commandment, get married without consideration of attraction to their spouse. Although I have a proof, that ideally Judaism desires that men do not find their spouses to be ugly or repulsive.
There is no question that homosexual relations are forbidden by Judasim, among many other thing. Some people have only contempt in their heart for homosexuals and other people like rabbi Harel try to help them get over their compulsion. Jews are also supposed to observe shabbat and most of them don't. You don't just go around and call all the shabbat violators sinners who deserve death do you ?
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: syyuge on September 06, 2011, 09:01:23 AM
Chillax, Syyuge is a good member who has never done anything offensive. I think he means that homosexuality is a rat-like existence and I completely agree with him.

Exactly. Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: edu on September 06, 2011, 03:07:06 PM
Response to Zelhar who commented:
Quote
There is no question that homosexual relations are forbidden by Judasim, among many other thing. Some people have only contempt in their heart for homosexuals and other people like rabbi Harel try to help them get over their compulsion. Jews are also supposed to observe shabbat and most of them don't. You don't just go around and call all the shabbat violators sinners who deserve death do you ?
This Thread was started with a quotation which among other things said the following:
Quote
In recent years, a number of religious gay groups have emerged, joining pride parades and demanding to be accepted while not going so far as to ask for religious recognition for their relationships.
I was afraid that someone would be confused into thinking that there is even a possibility that Judaism allow such activity which it does not.
If someone would have substituted for the words religious gay groups the words religious Shabbat Violators groups, then yes, I would feel it necessary to point out that Shabbat Violation is a death penalty crime for Jews [but of course not for Gentiles, who actually may not observe Shabbat, according to most Rabbis].
Given the poor educational background of many Jews [but not all Jews], it is common for many [but not all] rabbis to try to reduce the severity of the sin of the Shabbat Violaters by saying that for one reason or another, their sins are not intentional [only an intentional sin carries the death penalty] but by mistake, because had we presented the right educational approach to them, they would have indeed abstained from the sin.
I do not commit myself at this time to say if I agree or disagree with this lenient view. But even if I did, there is room to differentiate between Shabbat Violation and Male Homosexuality. Because unlike the Mitzva of Shabbat, of which only Jews are commanded to observe, the prohibition regarding Male Homosexuality applies,  even to a Gentile and Rambam says that ignorance of the 7 laws of Noah for a Gentile is not an excuse to save him from punishment.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Zelhar on September 06, 2011, 04:07:10 PM
@Edu, the report mentioned these so called "religious gay groups", with whom I am pretty sure the match making rabbi is not affiliated.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: muman613 on September 06, 2011, 11:56:01 PM
I am of the opinion that some good may come from these kinds of actions. I believe this Rabbi is operating on the principle that everything, including all good and bad traits, have a good application. Hashem does not make errors and when there is a person with a negative character trait it was given to him for the purpose of providing a challenge. Will the persons soul rise to the challenge or will he succumb and lose the battle? A man who may be inclined to murder may make a good Shochet/Ritual slaughterer {this is the classic example}.

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/379666/jewish/Using-Negative-for-Positive.htm

Quote
After ten failed attempts to stop smoking due to a very clever Yetzer Hara, a rabbi finally came up with a workable solution. The first morning after his new resolution, he announced to ten friends the good news: he was now a non-smoker! Each subsequent time his desire to smoke grew out of control, it was not his positive inclination to do good or even his doctor's orders that stopped him. Rather it was his own pride, not wishing to appear as feeble and weak to his friends. Everyone is familiar with this technique of neutralizing negative (but permissible) desires with our negative traits to accomplish positive goals. (This is unlike a desire for something forbidden by Jewish tradition, which much be rid of immediately, at its onset.) The Baal Shem Tov used to say, "We have to learn from our negative inclination. Just as it is always alert to seduce us, so we have to always be alert to do G-d's will by refusing to fall for the trap." (Keter Shem Tov, 124).
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: muman613 on September 07, 2011, 12:30:32 AM
Here is another reference to the concept of learning how to adjust our character traits according to our inclinations, both good and bad...



http://www.nachalnovea.com/breslovcenter/articles/article_point2.html

The Righteous, the Wicked, and the Intermediate:
All Have the Same Potential
That seed, the good point hidden in one's soul, can raise a person to extraordinary heights. However, on the other hand, if it is improperly used, precisely the opposite can occur. All that amazing potential will become an impediment. Those same strengths will fall into the service of the Other Side, and a person will stumble in the area of his greatest ability. Instead of using his strengths to serve God, he offers them as a sacrifice to idols.

Thus the Talmud says: "A person born under the constellation of Mars will be inclined to bloodshed: either he will be a murderer, a butcher or a mohel (an expert in performing ritual circumcision)."[14] The Talmud is alluding to three groups: the righteous, the wicked, and the intermediate. If, G-d forbid, this person's good point falls into the hands of the Other Side, the person will become a murderer. If he actualizes his potential in a mundane way (neither holy nor profane), he will become a butcher (because in general, eating meat is neither a mitzvah nor a sin). However, if he can completely purify himself and turn his desire for bloodshed against his own evil inclination, he will become a mohel and sanctify his potential by using it for the performance of a mitzvah.[15]

Success is Hidden Where the Evil is Strongest

This is true of all our negative traits. The greatest potential for good lies hidden within the most overwhelming proclivity for evil. If a person can defeat his evil inclination, he becomes a tzaddik; if not, he may lose everything. The desires that attack a person on the path to God are the negative aspects of the very strengths he is working to refine.

"Before any Jew can attain a new level in Torah and avodah (Divine service)," Rabbi Nachman wrote, "he is first tried and refined in the exile of one of the 'Seventy Languages.' That is, in their evil desires... because the shell always precedes the fruit. Whoever wants to eat the fruit must first break the shell."[16] By breaking the shell, one raises oneself to God; if not, the potential remains in exile. Although in many ways, the shell resembles the fruit, it is its complete opposite.

The same is true of the path to self-perfection. Pride is an impure character trait. However, on the side of holiness, it can be transformed into a sublime appreciation of God's greatness. Immoral desires are impure but, in the realm of holiness, one can uplift them into a consuming love and longing for the Almighty. Cruelty is impure yet, at times, one must be cruel towards one's own evil inclination. There are many similar examples.

Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye commented: "If a person is uncertain as to how he can best serve God, let him examine his basest desires and make use of them. Thus, we can explain the verse: 'You shall take My offering from every man whose heart moves him' (Exodus 25:2). That is, from the longings of the heart - the desires of this world - ­take God's offering. It is precisely this that elevates a person in the service of God."[17]

The Seed Hidden in the Ground

We must never become upset if negative desires at times overwhelm us, because the moment they attack is the moment they can be repaired. The verse says: "What does the Lord, your God, ask from you…" (Deuteronomy 10:12).  From you - not from someone else. None of life's trials are arbitrary. God arranges them all to purify our souls and to bring us to our ultimate good: the revelation of our own unique point. This is like planting a seed. Before it can draw upon the power of the earth, it first must decay. Only then is its inner potential revealed, to sprout forth, with God's help, and reveal its inner beauty. The same holds true for each of us. Only when we have been chafed and worn away by the trials of this world do our unique strengths become revealed. Ultimately, the difficulties are for our eternal benefit.

These ideas are all hinted in Rabbi Nachman's amazing story about the prince made from precious gems.[18] In this story, a certain righteous man predicts that the king will have a son made up entirely of precious stones. The king does have a son, who proves to be an exceptional child, but nevertheless, only flesh and blood. At the end of the story, because of the schemes of his enemies, the young prince contracts leprosy. Yet when his skin dries up and falls away, the precious stones beneath the surface are revealed.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: angryChineseKahanist on September 07, 2011, 09:56:18 PM
I'm terribly confused!
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Secularbeliever on September 08, 2011, 12:26:14 AM
I just don't see how a marriage between two people who are not attracted to each other can work. Do they have a vomit bucket next to the bed in case one of them is ovecome by how grossed out they are by their marital duties?

Beyond having children (and even there they might use artificial insemination) they would not likely engage in marital duties such as you are thinking of.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: muman613 on September 08, 2011, 12:31:28 AM
Beyond having children (and even there they might use artificial insemination) they would not likely engage in marital duties such as you are thinking of.

I don't know but if love occurs it may just change the equation. I do not believe that all homosexuals are 'born that way' and many have been conditioned to accept it. There are some Jewish organizations {which advertise on Arutz Sheva website} which attempt to re-condition them to accept love from women. I don't know about success rates though...
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: maelgwyn on September 08, 2011, 04:49:29 AM
Man shall not lay with man! Its an abomination!   >:(
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: Rubystars on September 08, 2011, 07:35:49 AM
Man shall not lay with man! Its an abomination!   >:(

That's why he's setting them up with women.
Title: Re: Israeli Rabbi sets up gays with lesbians
Post by: maelgwyn on September 08, 2011, 09:39:52 AM
May he have the best luck!  :::D