JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: edu on October 30, 2011, 02:29:38 PM
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Please also add comments to explain your view
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You need to be a fool, a naive kid, an outsider or just a plain masochist nutcase if you think that our salvation can come from the state of Israel.
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We must be united not divided. The prophets didnt say alll the exiles will come back to the land of israel and be seperated. This molvement is about leading the people of israel, not dividing it.
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We must be united not divided. The prophets didnt say alll the exiles will come back to the land of israel and be seperated. This molvement is about leading the people of israel, not dividing it.
Yea being "United" we must be with the Torah, and with our people as well. NOT with people who are fighting against us and G-D.
Unity works and is good when its for a good cause. Unity is bad when its for something bad (for example check the Tower of Bavel. They were "united", but it was for something bad).
That being said, what is the best tactics is debatable. But we certainly shouldn't and don't pay allegiance to chilonim who only curse and fight us and G-D.
(Also realize that we are fighting and are against the system and certain individuals who control and run it) not necessarily the average Jew, who even might be clueless about all this (although their are more and more people waking up).
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If Kahanist Jews or any type of religious Jews try to set up a separate State it will lead to civil war and another downfall of the Jewish nation. Jews must unite not separate into different states in the land of Israel. When the Hebrew Tribes separated into the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel, it was the beginning of the end for the Hebrew nation.
Our mission must be to educate Jews in Israel to see the light, and return to Judaism. It won't be easy, but redemption is not suppose to be easy. It is not as hopeless as you may think considering that the majority of young Jewish children in Israel come from religious homes. The fact is the secular Jews have adopted values that are bringing about their own downfall. In a few decades the majority of Jews in Israel will be religious Jews, so that is a good start.
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The idea raises many questions and probably answers none. Would the suburbanites of the settlement blocs be included? If not you have a population of 100,000 Jews. Would this new nation have it's own army or look to Israel? Would it attempt to take areas A and B that are overwhelmingly populated by Arabs. These are just a few of the questions.
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If Kahanist Jews or any type of religious Jews try to set up a separate State it will lead to civil war and another downfall of the Jewish nation.
And your evidence for this statement is what?
I have news for you and other people who think like you. The Civil War has already been launched by the Israeli govt. The Israeli govt is waging civil war against settlers. It is not just religious Jews, but all Jewish settlers, and by extension, the entire Jewish people!
So while the govt wages its war, people can choose to respond or not respond, but Do Not Tell Me that settlers are the ones who started a civil war if and when they do respond! But I also challenge the notion that making arrangements for independence, self-sufficiency and eventual separate statehood automatically equates to civil war. Do you know that religious zionists make up 2 thirds of combat soldiers in the IDF? You know how many settlers are serving in the army?
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Here is a link to Rabbi Meir Kahane's view on the subject http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zl6HtBA8ho
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zl6HtBA8ho)
I agree with Kahane-Was-Right BT that the civil war has already been started by the bad guys and we only have the choice of doing something effective to win or losing.
The blogger Maimonides stated:
When the Hebrew Tribes separated into the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel, it was the beginning of the end for the Hebrew nation.
My response: Why focus on that episode in Jewish history? Instead focus on the kingdom of David, which broke off first from the kingdom of the house of Shaul establishing a small Judean state with Hebron as the capital and later on the state spread to all of Israel as the house of Shaul became progressively weaker and less popular.
And don't forget what was the ultimate cause for the downfall of Shaul? The prophet said it was his undo compassion for Amalek.
A sin which is shared by many of our so-called leaders, in the state of Israel today.
Now I am willing to admit that it is possible, that eventually given enough disasters combined with the fact that the religious have larger families on average, that the State of Israel, might one day improve, even without a state of Judea. Or perhaps a huge number of religious immigrants will save us.
If someone has a better plan than the State of Judea to move the redemption forward, please inform me.
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I should add that a more religious Israel does not necessarily equal a more right-wing Israel.
For example, after many years that Jerusalem was headed by secular mayors, eventually Uri Lupolianski a Chareidi Jew was elected.
At least on the Issue of defending Jewish rights on the Temple Mount, he was probably as bad if not worse than the secularists.
For example, see http://www.templeinstitute.org/archive/14-02-07.htm (http://www.templeinstitute.org/archive/14-02-07.htm)
Or let's look at the massive blood-spilling Shalit for a 1000+ terrorists deal.
It had the full backing of the religious leader, R. Ovadia Yosef and his political party Shas.
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Yes. If it were to happen, the following could take place:
1. The Arab nazis will assume they can destroy the settlers because they will be outnumbering them. However, with Gd's help and good cache of arms, the settlers will show the rest of Israel what means when it comes down to business to defeat those Nazis. When the settlers win their wars, the Israelis will realize that it takes to win and regain national and religious pride and eventually rejoin with Judea and Samaria as one truly Jewish state.
2. The second possibility might be an Israeli attach on the settlers in Judea and Samaria. I doubt this scenario will take place because if needless deaths of settlers take place as a result of Jews killing other Jews, most Israelis will side with them and cause a civil unrest within Israel until the government changes its policies to changes all together to serve the settlers and help Israel's true causes.
In order for another separate Judean/Samarian Jewish state to form, Israel has to accept it and be willing to arm them for protection.
I think in the end, if it came to this, Israel Judea and Samaria would eventually reunify.
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Greater Israel...
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And your evidence for this statement is what?
I have news for you and other people who think like you. The Civil War has already been launched by the Israeli govt. The Israeli govt is waging civil war against settlers. It is not just religious Jews, but all Jewish settlers, and by extension, the entire Jewish people!
So while the govt wages its war, people can choose to respond or not respond, but Do Not Tell Me that settlers are the ones who started a civil war if and when they do respond! But I also challenge the notion that making arrangements for independence, self-sufficiency and eventual separate statehood automatically equates to civil war. Do you know that religious zionists make up 2 thirds of combat soldiers in the IDF? You know how many settlers are serving in the army?
Since that is the case why do we need to break off from Israel if as I pointed out the future of Israel will be in the hands of the religious Jews. The only question now is making sure the religious Jews are united in the belief of defending real Torah Judaism, and not simply securing themselves more government benefits.
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Here is a link to Rabbi Meir Kahane's view on the subject http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zl6HtBA8ho
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zl6HtBA8ho)
I agree with Kahane-Was-Right BT that the civil war has already been started by the bad guys and we only have the choice of doing something effective to win or losing.
The blogger Maimonides stated:
My response: Why focus on that episode in Jewish history? Instead focus on the kingdom of David, which broke off first from the kingdom of the house of Shaul establishing a small Judean state with Hebron as the capital and later on the state spread to all of Israel as the house of Shaul became progressively weaker and less popular.
And don't forget what was the ultimate cause for the downfall of Shaul? The prophet said it was his undo compassion for Amalek.
A sin which is shared by many of our so-called leaders, in the state of Israel today.
Now I am willing to admit that it is possible, that eventually given enough disasters combined with the fact that the religious have larger families on average, that the State of Israel, might one day improve, even without a state of Judea. Or perhaps a huge number of religious immigrants will save us.
If someone has a better plan than the State of Judea to move the redemption forward, please inform me.
You do realize that David did not abandon Saul but was loyal to him until the end even though Saul wanted him dead. The point is we must take the higher ground and stand for Jewish unity, and not divide the Jewish people.
Hashem cursed the Kingdom of David by dividing it, because a divided Jewish nation is a vulnerable Jewish nation.
The Irgun and Lehi did not wage reprisals against the Haganah and Mapai, even though they were being turned over to the British, because they did not want to unleash a Jewish Civil War that would let the Arabs take advantage of divided Jewish people.
I agree with Meir Kahane,zecher tzadik livracha , but he did not call for a separate Jewish state. He simply pointed out that the IDF was not needed to defend the settlers, as long as the settlers were allowed to do what they had to do to defend themselves.
The moment a group of any Jews declare they will break away from Israel and form there own state, they will be crushed by the IDF.
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Since that is the case why do we need to break off from Israel if as I pointed out the future of Israel will be in the hands of the religious Jews. The only question now is making sure the religious Jews are united in the belief of defending real Torah Judaism, and not simply securing themselves more government benefits.
I think the only way that could ever happen is if Israel permits it to happen as a way to resolve their differences. I don't see the Settlers going outside of Judea and Samaria and start an armed resistance against the IDF.
However, in a case of an Israeli retreat from Judea and Samaria and the Settlers are able to stay to fend for themselves, absolutely, they should establish another Jewish state in those territories even if the Fakistinians are already assuming they are going to keep it for themselves. I just hope these settlers will be sufficiently armed. And believe me, if that were to happen, like in 1967, Judea and Samaria will increase in size drastically and the arabs will run away. When real Jews fight, THEY FIGHT. And when the rest of Israel would see somthing like this happen, they will not only demand the same thing from the IDF, but Judea and Samaria and Israel will reunite.
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If something like this happens (the I.D.F. just leaving Jews in Judea and Samaria) their is a likely scenario to play out- Not only the Arabs but a force of internationals (all nations- U.N.) will attack the new (real) Jewish state- like the Prophets said.
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You do realize that David did not abandon Saul but was loyal to him until the end even though Saul wanted him dead. The point is we must take the higher ground and stand for Jewish unity, and not divide the Jewish people.
Hashem cursed the Kingdom of David by dividing it, because a divided Jewish nation is a vulnerable Jewish nation.
The Irgun and Lehi did not wage reprisals against the Haganah and Mapai, even though they were being turned over to the British, because they did not want to unleash a Jewish Civil War that would let the Arabs take advantage of divided Jewish people.
I agree with Meir Kahane,zecher tzadik livracha , but he did not call for a separate Jewish state. He simply pointed out that the IDF was not needed to defend the settlers, as long as the settlers were allowed to do what they had to do to defend themselves.
The moment a group of any Jews declare they will break away from Israel and form there own state, they will be crushed by the IDF.
See my original post. If the IDF were to dare kill any Jewish Settler, most Israelis will side with them and go against the government. I doubt this type of civil war would take place. I know that the settlers will not go up and say, "We are separating right now". If anything, at the time a Fakestinian state is about to be established on settler land, that would be the time, the settlers would have to demand a separate Jewish state...it's either that, or the government gets tired of the settlers and give in to their demands and go their separate ways. I doubt that will take place also.
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If something like this happens (the I.D.F. just leaving Jews in Judea and Samaria) their is a likely scenario to play out- Not only the Arabs but a force of internationals (all nations- U.N.) will attack the new (real) Jewish state- like the Prophets said.
and beezrat Hashem, the settlers will win.
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and beezrat Hashem, the settlers will win.
Amen. May it be His will.
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Quotes from our forum member, Maimonides
You do realize that David did not abandon Saul but was loyal to him until the end even though Saul wanted him dead. The point is we must take the higher ground and stand for Jewish unity, and not divide the Jewish people.
That was true for Shaul {Saul} who was annointed by the prophet Shmuel {Samuel} to be king over Israel. However, this was not true, regarding Shaul's son. In this case, David did split off and established a separate Judean Kingdom that in time spread.
Quote by Maimonides
Hashem cursed the Kingdom of David by dividing it, because a divided Jewish nation is a vulnerable Jewish nation.
Reread the Tanach. This is not the reason that Hashem punished the Kingdom of David. In addition, a person has to have his eyes on present day realities and not slogans. If present day realities, show that working separately accomplishes more we work separately.
In addition you without realizing it support my argument. The Irgun and Lechi did not blindly submit to the leadership of hagana for the sake of unity. They went their separate ways, because they thought they could help the Jewish cause better without acting under a unified Hagana banner.
Also historically, while the Irgun did not fight back against Hagana's backstabbing. Lechi did react. And I am told their reaction actually had a very positive impact.
Quote by Maimonides I agree with Meir Kahane,zecher tzadik livracha , but he did not call for a separate Jewish state.
He did call for a Judean state. Do some further research if you don't believe me.
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Greater Israel...
That was my thought when I read this too. Israel should be getting larger, not smaller. If they did break off and form their own country I would support them though.
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The current Israel had made grave sins of partitioning Gd's land. Look to the Bible and previous ask jtf questions. Abraham was punished for dealing with the philistine king.
And because of these grave sins the current Israel will continue to be punished. One way might be the creation of a judean state that will overtake the Israeli state as long as it doesn't stray either.
And with leaders like the ones that are there now, there very little chance Gd would reward then with a greater Israel. It will not surprise me that if Obama wins, Israel well negotiate for a fekestine. The fakistinians will reject it and so will the while world and force a state the the fakistinians think they deserve. at that moment the state if Judea could be declared if the Israeli governmentkowtows to this.
Then there will be a war that Israel will lose, but Judea will win with their rocks and sticks. Gd will bless them and most Israelis will love them. hopefully the judeans will encourageTorah study or else We will have the same cycle of a secular Israel.
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I would like to see Torah Jews try the same technique that the fakestinians are using in an attempt to claim additional land outside of the existing borders. Maybe in Egypt, Syria or Jordan. Since the current Israeli government does not represent their needs, the UN should entitle them to their own land.
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What if the Judean/Samarian state has evil leadership like those in the Yesha council?
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Since that is the case why do we need to break off from Israel if as I pointed out the future of Israel will be in the hands of the religious Jews. The only question now is making sure the religious Jews are united in the belief of defending real Torah Judaism, and not simply securing themselves more government benefits.
Because if drastic measures are not taken now, there will be no possibility to take them in the future when the situation becomes even more dire. If you think the ruling elites will just lie down and let the religious (and settler) numbers surge and overtake them into a majority, and then take away control from them, you are dreaming (no offense). Why do you think there is a freeze on new settlements since the 1980's? Why do you think Bibi enacted a freeze on EXISTING settlements? These are two major measures of population control. The elites can read the writing on the wall and will do whatever they can to break the spirit of those who would wrest control away from them and lead the state in a different direction. The number of settlers would be far greater had these terrible decisions not been made by the govt of Israel. But these are only 2 of the many ways the ruling elites are targeting their biggest enemy and the biggest threat to their power - the settlers. Your last sentence is a really important point, but unfortunately many religious Jews simply do not "get it." Many of the haredim, and many of them are really good people, just do not get it and have little connection to the ongoing assault that is happening to the nationalist public.
One of the reasons for breaking off from the state is the fact that the state currently cannibalizes them. If things as they are set in motion now are simply left as they are, settlers will be weaker, the Arab Fakestine terror state will rise in their backyard, and the ruling elite tyranny will have even more centralized control over the lives of Jews.
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The moment a group of any Jews declare they will break away from Israel and form there own state, they will be crushed by the IDF.
Explain to me why the IDF would fight them? They are not declaring war on the IDF by 'breaking away' as you term it. I just don't get this mentality. Did the IDF crush any of Israel's enemies in the past 30 years? Ever?
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I agree with Meir Kahane,zecher tzadik livracha , but he did not call for a separate Jewish state. He simply pointed out that the IDF was not needed to defend the settlers, as long as the settlers were allowed to do what they had to do to defend themselves.
Settlers will never be "allowed to do what they have to do to defend themselves" by the current regime. That is another form of population control, and another reason to dissociate from the state. Make no mistake about it, so long as the state of Israel maintains full sovereignty over these settlement areas, the IDF will maintain a presence there. So we need to put 2 and 2 together from what the Rabbi was saying, it's quite obvious that the only way the IDF leaves is if the settlers in those places declare their dissociation from the state and demands the IDF's removal from their territory. How exactly do you envision the IDF leaving if those settlers remain subjects of Bibi the Destroyer and loyal followers of the state of Israel, rather than setting up a provisional govt, creating self-sufficient means of survival (currently they depend too much on the govt to survive day to day), self-defense forces, and then calling upon the IDF to remove itself from land they are declaring as their own sovereign territory (especially since Israel never annexed it)?
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I would like to see Torah Jews try the same technique that the fakestinians are using in an attempt to claim additional land outside of the existing borders. Maybe in Egypt, Syria or Jordan. Since the current Israeli government does not represent their needs, the UN should entitle them to their own land.
Good point, and I agree with this sentiment. And there is a lot we can learn from how the Arabs brought the Israeli regime to its knees.
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Explain to me why the IDF would fight them? They are not declaring war on the IDF by 'breaking away' as you term it. I just don't get this mentality. Did the IDF crush any of Israel's enemies in the past 30 years? Ever?
Settlers will never be "allowed to do what they have to do to defend themselves" by the current regime. That is another form of population control, and another reason to dissociate from the state. Make no mistake about it, so long as the state of Israel maintains full sovereignty over these settlement areas, the IDF will maintain a presence there. So we need to put 2 and 2 together from what the Rabbi was saying, it's quite obvious that the only way the IDF leaves is if the settlers in those places declare their dissociation from the state and demands the IDF's removal from their territory. How exactly do you envision the IDF leaving if those settlers remain subjects of Bibi the Destroyer and loyal followers of the state of Israel, rather than setting up a provisional govt, creating self-sufficient means of survival (currently they depend too much on the govt to survive day to day), self-defense forces, and then calling upon the IDF to remove itself from land they are declaring as their own sovereign territory (especially since Israel never annexed it)?
You contradict yourself. First you state that the IDF won't do anything to the settlers if they "break off" from Israel, and then you state the current establishment won't let the settlers live and flourish in Judea and Samaria.
The fact is the IDF uses violence against the settlers without any of the concerns they have have when dealing with the Israel's foreign enemies.
The current Israeli government will crush any settlers that declare their independence from Israel.
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Quotes from our forum member, MaimonidesThat was true for Shaul {Saul} who was annointed by the prophet Shmuel {Samuel} to be king over Israel. However, this was not true, regarding Shaul's son. In this case, David did split off and established a separate Judean Kingdom that in time spread.
Quote by Maimonides Reread the Tanach. This is not the reason that Hashem punished the Kingdom of David. In addition, a person has to have his eyes on present day realities and not slogans. If present day realities, show that working separately accomplishes more we work separately.
In addition you without realizing it support my argument. The Irgun and Lechi did not blindly submit to the leadership of hagana for the sake of unity. They went their separate ways, because they thought they could help the Jewish cause better without acting under a unified Hagana banner.
Also historically, while the Irgun did not fight back against Hagana's backstabbing. Lechi did react. And I am told their reaction actually had a very positive impact.
Quote by Maimonides He did call for a Judean state. Do some further research if you don't believe me.
When did Lehi fight against the Haganah?
Do you think that when the Kingdom of Israel broke up between the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom if Judah that was good for the Hebrew nation?
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When did Lehi fight against the Haganah?
Do you think that when the Kingdom of Israel broke up between the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom if Judah that was good for the Hebrew nation?
When the two Kingdoms broke away originally, the north was evil because of idolatry. The other kingdom was evil because the king treated his people harshly.
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You contradict yourself. First you state that the IDF won't do anything to the settlers if they "break off" from Israel, and then you state the current establishment won't let the settlers live and flourish in Judea and Samaria.
The fact is the IDF uses violence against the settlers without any of the concerns they have have when dealing with the Israel's foreign enemies.
The current Israeli government will crush any settlers that declare their independence from Israel.
I did not contradict myself. I think you are just not understanding me.
The settlers will never be allowed to do what is necessary for their self defense by the current regime, so long as they remain subjects of the state and dependent on the IDF (an agent of the state) for protection. If the status quo remains, the settlers are at the whims of the arab-loving upper eschelons of the IDF and its employers. In this current situation, the IDF prevents the settlers from defending themselves. It takes away their weapons. It allows and encourages arab attacks. And it is the IDF's job to control these areas, with the yesha council begging them to stay and save everyone from the arabs.
Do you think the IDF will just magically change its mind? Suddenly they'll wake up one day and have a 'change of heart' and change their operating procedures for no reason at all? Not a chance.
If the settlers extract themselves from the state of Israel and demonstrate their unwillingness to be "defended" by the IDF, the IDF will not be duty-bound to defend land areas which the Israeli govt cedes to settlers or just withdraws from. The nascent state in Judea can be a proxy for the state of Israel or simply not engage with it. But there is no reason the IDF has to "declare war" and start treating settlers like they are hamas! Where do you get that idea from? The settlements are a 'headache' which the state of Israel does not want. Who can't see that by now? If settlers make facts on the ground and start demonstrating independence and self-sufficiency, it will be the greatest gift the Israeli regime could ask for. And then when Jewish reprisals finally start to occur on the Arabs, the Israeli govt can wash its hands of it and say we have nothing to do with the people there.
The IDF is there because of settlers; it is not there because the Israeli govt thinks we the Jewish people belong in the land of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and therefore the Israeli govt asserts its rights to the territory. lol, the Israeli govt thinks that land is arab land!
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lol, the Israeli govt thinks that land is arab land!
Don't forget leftist/athiests think themselves to be "moral" people. They will fight the Jews if need be in order to restore the land to arabs. And go in to stop them "crazy Jews" from committing "crimes" against Arabs.
Also don't forget they probably still want to suck taxes and other resources from as many Jews as possible.
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Don't forget leftist/athiests think themselves to be "moral" people. They will fight the Jews if need be in order to restore the land to arabs. And go in to stop them "crazy Jews" from committing "crimes" against Arabs.
Also don't forget they probably still want to suck taxes and other resources from as many Jews as possible.
Whoever are the leftists/ atheists, I guess they don't realize how an "illegal" unsanctioned army of Judea would treat them (and their arab lovers). Their activities won't last very long.
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I do not want a civil war... But I would support a Judean state, a Torah observant Jewish state...
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jtf member Maimonides asked me, when did the lehi (or lechi) fight the hagana?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah
states the following:
In 1944, after the assassination of Lord Moyne, (the British Minister of State for the Middle East), by members of the Lehi, the Haganah worked with the British to kidnap, interrogate, and in some cases, deport Irgun members. This action was called The Saison, or hunting season, and was directed against the Irgun and not the Lehi]. Future Jerusalem mayor Teddy Kollek was later revealed to be the official most responsible, under the code name Scorpion, for turning Irgun activists over to the British authorities.
Many Jewish youth, who had joined the Haganah in order to defend the Jewish people, were greatly demoralized by operations against their own people. The Irgun, paralyzed by the Saison, were ordered by their commander, Menachem Begin, not to retaliate in an effort to avoid a full blown civil war. Although many Irgunists objected to these orders, they obeyed Begin and refrained from fighting back. The Saison eventually ended due to perceived British betrayal becoming more obvious to the public and Haganah youth becoming increasingly vocal in their opposition to the policy.
A Kahanist friend of mine who is knowledgeable about the period, claims the real reason that the Haganah did not go after the Lehi, in contrast to the Irgun, was because Hagana leaders were threatened that they would receive a violent reaction from the Lehi against them, if they turned over Lehi people.
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jtf member Maimonides asked me, when did the lehi (or lechi) fight the hagana?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah
states the following:A Kahanist friend of mine who is knowledgeable about the period, claims the real reason that the Haganah did not go after the Lehi, in contrast to the Irgun, was because Hagana leaders were threatened that they would receive a violent reaction from the Lehi against them, if they turned over Lehi people.
Well then we never will know what would happen had Lehi actually struck Haganah.
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I did not contradict myself. I think you are just not understanding me.
The settlers will never be allowed to do what is necessary for their self defense by the current regime, so long as they remain subjects of the state and dependent on the IDF (an agent of the state) for protection. If the status quo remains, the settlers are at the whims of the arab-loving upper eschelons of the IDF and its employers. In this current situation, the IDF prevents the settlers from defending themselves. It takes away their weapons. It allows and encourages arab attacks. And it is the IDF's job to control these areas, with the yesha council begging them to stay and save everyone from the arabs.
Do you think the IDF will just magically change its mind? Suddenly they'll wake up one day and have a 'change of heart' and change their operating procedures for no reason at all? Not a chance.
If the settlers extract themselves from the state of Israel and demonstrate their unwillingness to be "defended" by the IDF, the IDF will not be duty-bound to defend land areas which the Israeli govt cedes to settlers or just withdraws from. The nascent state in Judea can be a proxy for the state of Israel or simply not engage with it. But there is no reason the IDF has to "declare war" and start treating settlers like they are hamas! Where do you get that idea from? The settlements are a 'headache' which the state of Israel does not want. Who can't see that by now? If settlers make facts on the ground and start demonstrating independence and self-sufficiency, it will be the greatest gift the Israeli regime could ask for. And then when Jewish reprisals finally start to occur on the Arabs, the Israeli govt can wash its hands of it and say we have nothing to do with the people there.
The IDF is there because of settlers; it is not there because the Israeli govt thinks we the Jewish people belong in the land of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and therefore the Israeli govt asserts its rights to the territory. lol, the Israeli govt thinks that land is arab land!
What makes you think that the current Israeli government will allow the Settlers to break away?
The current Israeli government does not want the Settlers to exist, and want to establish a so-called Palestinian state on the lands that Settlers live in.
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I found out from my friend the direct source, that the Hagana leadership was threatened with violence by Lehi/Lechi if Hagana dared to try to backstab the Lehi/Lechi during the so called "Saison or hunting season". A threat which worked and convinced the Hagana to go after an easier target, the Irgun, which espoused an ideology, of suffering for the sake of Jewish unity.
The source is Elnakam by Ezra Yachin.
Ezra Yachin was a member of the Lehi/Lechi who wrote about his own experiences in the movement and writes to some extent about the history of the movement in general.
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What makes you think that the current Israeli government will allow the Settlers to break away?
The current Israeli government does not want the Settlers to exist, and want to establish a so-called Palestinian state on the lands that Settlers live in.
Actually I personally know someone who was an adviser to Smolmert. You are right in what you say. The Israeli establishment feel that the settlers are the thorn in the side for a "peace treaty". At this point, the government feels that if they leave the settlers alone and let them protect themselves, they think they will be massacred, Gd forbid. Therefore, their goal is to remove the settlers and not give them a separate state. If only they allowed it, the Israeli government would be proven wrong.
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I support Greater Israel, whatever it means to whomsoever concerned or not so concerned.
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I support Greater Israel, whatever it means to whomsoever concerned or not so concerned.
But sometimes you have to take one step back before you make one step forward. This could mean if not changing the Israeli government, creating an ideal Jewish state from Judea and Samaria.
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I support Greater Israel, whatever it means to whomsoever concerned or not so concerned.
But sometimes you have to take one step back before you make one step forward. This could mean if not changing the Israeli government, creating an ideal Jewish state from Judea and Samaria.
Thanx! I understand that this scenario is really complex.
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i agree with the summation on the Torah and uniting People. Yes, Israel should be growing not getting smaller..Keep praying for the Lord's will to be clear! Amen