JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Dan Ben Noah on October 08, 2012, 09:14:14 PM
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Shalom
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what are the meanings of ervah, zonah, arayot and kerait ?
Ervah = uncovered area
Zonah = a woman who had been intimate with a non-Jewish man/ or a prostitute
Arayot = Any forbidden sexual/intimate relation
Kerait = Excommunication/cut off from the Jewish people
See also:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1340046/jewish/Can-Someone-Be-Cut-Off-From-G-d.htm
http://www.torah.org/learning/women/class29.html
So Pinchas and Calev cross the Jordan into Israel, and stop for the night in the city of Jerico, at the house of an innkeeper named Rahav. The Hebrew word for innkeeper is "zonah", which comes from the word "mazon" (food). Rachav is referred to in the Book of Joshua as "isha zonah", which can be translated as "a female innkeeper, who provided food for people".
But the word "zonah" also means prostitute. Rahav was a prostitute, involved with many people, and she supported herself by running a brothel disguised as an inn.
http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2007/parsha/rhab_acharei.html
Much of the ends of Parshiyos Acharei-Mos and K'doshim are devoted to a detailed description of the many prohibitions against ‘arayot (forbidden relations) with Acharei-Mos containing the azharot, the prohibitions, and K'doshim containing the ‘onshim, the punishments. The devotion of two entire sections of the Torah to these prohibitions indicates their centrality. This is further verified by the punishment of kareis (excision) imposed on violators and the fact that these prohibitions are one of only three categories of prohibitions that necessitate forfeiting one's life even in private and not during a time of religious persecution (sh'as hash'mad) rather than violate them (see Rambam, Hilchos Y'sodei HaTorah 5:2).
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I'm aware there are laws that are actual commandments in both the Torah and the Talmud. Then there are other rabbinical prohibitions which aren't actually commandments from G-d. This book being quoted from here what is that & is it just prohibitions or are these laws from the Talmud? I know they aren't in the Torah. ..Sorry but i don't know any orthodox or religious jewish people to ask that to. what is this mishna book? Is it from the Talmud, Torah or just rabbis making a fence (prohibitions) There are many instances in the Torah of jews marrying righteous gentiles so in those marraiges (assuming these are not prohibitions but actual commandments set forth here on this page) are they still relevant? Doesn't G-d make the match???? So why would He then condemn it????
Very interesting question!
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What's an example of a Jew marrying a righteous Gentile?
Solomon, Moses, and Joseph. I think...
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Alot of Jews marrying gentile in the Torah......Moses., Boaz, Joseph, Abraham who married Hagar after Sarah died, King Solomon, ......I think my questions are way too heavy for this board.......I think they're too heavy for me at the moment.i think I need a professional so I'll call Chabad in the morning ..
What are you a ... Jew, a Christian, or a troll?
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Solomon, Moses, and Joseph. I think...
No, No, and no.
Solomon converted them.
Moses and Joseph married before Mattan Torah so the prohibition of marrying a gentile did not apply. Their status was all as "gentiles" or another way- not Jewish. After receiving the Torah Moshe and his wife became Jewish.
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No, No, and no.
Solomon converted them.
Moses and Joseph married before Mattan Torah so the prohibition of marrying a gentile did not apply. Their status was all as "gentiles" or another way- not Jewish. After receiving the Torah Moshe and his wife became Jewish.
Thanks Tag!
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@ Ephraim.i was about to answer you then went to look up what a troll was. ..My question was neither inflammatory or off the subject. And this was my first and after your nasty reply last time ever posting or requesting info on any forum. Your question was assanine and you have zero class. (to put it kindly)
Well, trolls usually start their first conversations off with conflict! Prove me wrong!
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If your not a troll ... toughen up! I actually liked your question.
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@ Ephraim.i was about to answer you then went to look up what a troll was. ..My question was neither inflammatory or off the subject. And this was my first and after your nasty reply last time ever posting or requesting info on any forum.
If anyone believes this crap, I'll leave the forum!
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Your question was assanine and you have zero class. (to put it kindly)
Thank you!
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Solomon, Moses, and Joseph. I think...
No, they all converted to judaism...
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Ruth was a convert. This is so obvious as we have the book of Ruth which documents her conversion. She most certainly was jewish when she married Boaz.
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Sarah was a proto-jew just as our father Abraham was a proto-jew. Hagar was not married to Abraham, she was Sarahs slave. Ishmael was not a jew, his mother did not convert till Sarah died. Her name was changed after the conversion to Keturah.
The Torah clearly specifies that the Jewish nation is descended through Abrahams son Isaac, and through his son Jacob, not through Ishmael or Essau...
Before Mattan Torah (The giving of the Torah) the patriarchs kept the Torah to the best of their ability. There are cases where they did not follow the commands exactly, and they are punished (in a way) for these errors. For example Jacob marries two sisters which, we learn in these halachas, is forbidden by the Torah.
See also : http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/101035/jewish/How-Could-Jacob-Marry-Two-Sisters.htm
We are told that Jacob married both Rachel and Leah, and later Bilhah and Zilpah, all daughters of Laban. Now since we have a tradition that the forefathers kept the entire Torah, even though it had not yet been given—how can it be that Jacob married four sisters, when we are told,1 “You shall not take a woman to her sister”—that is, one may not marry the sister of one’s wife?
Perhaps we could say that Rashi does not comment on the problem because when the “five-year-old” learns this Parshah, he does not know that Jacob’s act was forbidden (for the law does not appear until Vayikra (Leviticus), and the child has not yet reached that book). However, this will not do, for Rashi does not explain the difficulty even later on.
Alternatively, it is possible that Rashi felt that, amongst the many explanations of the point given in other commentaries, there was one sufficiently obvious enough that he was not bound to mention it. But this also will not explain his silence. First of all, there are many disagreements among these other commentators, so the explanation is not obvious; and second, they are not explanations of the literal meaning of the text—which is therefore still wanting.
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http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13:ruth-mother-of-converts&catid=39&Itemid=512
Ruth, the Mother of all Converts
Every religion has its heroes and role models. For converts to Judaism, the Biblical Ruth, the daughter of the king of Moab, is the archetypical personality. Ruth and her forlorn mother-in-law, Naomi, suffered greatly losing their husbands in Moab. Without any apparent motive or personal benefit, Ruth placed her lot with the Jewish people. Ruth’s persistence in staying with Naomi and her proclamation, "…Your people shall be my people, and your God my God. Where you die, I will die…” remain inspirational rallying cries for converts in every generation. She wholeheartedly accepted the tenets of Judaism and became the consummate faithful Jew, and the great-grandmother of King David – the heir to the Messiah.
The story of Ruth is read on the Pentecostal holiday called Shavuot (Feast of Weeks). One of the reasons for reading the Scroll of Ruth is that Shavuot commemorates the people of Israel receiving the Torah, just like Ruth did as an individual. Ruth’s very name in Hebrew alludes to this concept. “Gematria” or numerology is one of the techniques of Biblical exegesis (or methods of extracting meaning from Scripture), where hidden messages can be revealed. The three Hebrew letters that form her name are Reish-Vav-Tuf. In Gematria, Ruth’s name adds up to 606. What does that mean?
All non-Jews are bound by the covenant of Noah. The Talmud demonstrates how verses in the Torah teach us that when Adam was created, God gave him six basic laws of morality to observe. After the Flood of Noah, mankind was given one more, not tearing a limb from a live animal (general prohibition of caused pain to animals). These seven universal laws are known in Judaism as the “Sheva Mitzvot B’nei Noach,” or Seven Noahide Laws. As an ethical non-Jew, Ruth had already accepted these seven laws. With her conversion to Judaism, she became obligated in 613. The difference between these two numbers is 606, the numerology of her name. Thus, we find a hint in this matriarch’s very identity to her being a model for conversion. However, her connection to conversion doesn’t end there.
Being a “stranger” to a particular group or faith is normally beset with feelings of isolation or social discomfort. For a convert to Judaism, there also exists this notion. One can remain an outsider, even after they’ve matriculated through the process and committed themselves to a strictly religiously Jewish lifestyle. A convert travels a very lonely road. Can we learn anything else from the example of Ruth as to how one can transition into the ranks of the Jewish people, and ultimately “Fit in?”
The sages of Israel teach, “Dearer to God than all the Israelites who stood at Mt Sinai is the convert. Had the Israelites not witnessed the lightning, thunder, and trembling mountain, and had they not listened to the sounds of the shofar, they would not have accepted the Torah. But the convert, who did not see or hear any of these things, surrendered to God and accepted the yoke of Heaven. Can anyone be dearer to God than that?” (Midrash Tanchuma Lech Lecha 6:32) The secret to success in Jewish commitment might be found in the “surrender to God” process that Ruth herself went through. But exactly how does that work?
Boaz, the leader of the Jewish people and a kinsman of Naomi’s late husband Elimelech, has just noticed Ruth, the proselyte, gleaning in his fields. He is overcome by her modest demeanor and kindness and replies “I have been fully informed of all that you have done for your mother-in-law after the death of your husband – how you left your father and mother (royalty) and the land of your birth and came to a people you had not known yesterday or previously. May God reward your deed, and may your payment be full from the Lord, the God of Israel, under Whose Wings you have come to seek refuge.” (Ruth 2:11-12)
Ruth is given a blessing from the leader of the Jewish people, “May your payment be full from the Lord…under whose wings you have come to seek refuge.” Perhaps Boaz was conveying to this sincere convert that having tasted royalty, opulence and “the good life,” during her previous existence might leave unrealistic expectations upon joining a newly adopted people. Things might get very rough. Even the most idealistic nation has members who often don’t embrace the proper attitude toward newcomers. Ruth is reminded, therefore, that she has entered the comforting wings of the Divine Presence. The enduring message for the rest of us is this; One’s ability to “surrender to God” is the greatest attribute a person can use in finding his/her place among the Chosen People.
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Those "simple" questions have life changing consequences for me. I have built a life and a family with a man who i love and believe is my destiny. I hope my answer is as simple of having him convert to judaism which until now i have been unwilling to allow him to do because i didn't want him to do it just do it for me. I've been waiting for him to want to do it for himself. He is an incredible supporter of the jews and Israel as are his family and he believes jesus was just a man but not a god. He doesn't laugh at my being kosher or observing Shabbos when my own family does..His mother keeps a separate area in her home for kosher things..My mother and sister call me up just to tell me they are having lobster...would i like to come over. He even has a star of David tatoo on his neck for me..How can G-d be against that? I can't believe . As a baal Tshuva with no observant friends or family i study on my own & His family is the only real family i know & I never knew jews were forbidden from intermarraige if the jewish person remained jewish( if that is actually true). I have a call in to a (hopefully nicer ) orthodox rabbi to find out what this mishna is and if these are actual laws or prohibitions. So i'm glad my questions are so simple to you. I hope the answers will be as simple for me . Ephraim you are a mental defect and David ben Noah you are a callous [censored].
Shalom her majesty,
I apologize for my colleagues apparent rudeness but I ask that you forgive them. Both Ephraim and Dan are very righteous and have good intention. The problem is that JTF has had many people come with ill intent, and attempt to divide the forum which is why the 'troll' accusation was leveled. I do not believe you are a troll and I take your explanation seriously.
We do not want to drive Jews away from their heritage. It is important for all Jews to do 'teshuva' and return to the ways of our forefathers. As you consider yourself a 'Baal Teshuva' and have made efforts to follow the 613 commandments I will attempt to help you by pointing you toward resources which will assist you in this tricky situation you seem to be in.
I know from experience because I too am a Baal Teshuva who returned 10 years ago. I too had intermarried to a non-Jewish woman even though I knew it was not permitted by the Jewish religion {My parents provided both my brother and myself with a basic Jewish education and a Bar Mitzvah (conservative)}. If you were truly not taught by your parents that it is not permitted for a Jew to marry out of the religion then I am very sorry about that, but you should be proud that you now are on the correct path. Now all that is needed is rectification for the mistakes which were made.
Your husband should convert if it is in his heart to do so. He should not do it just because you want him to do it, this will almost always back-fire in our face (converts can become anti-semites). But you must be able to present to him a Judaism which is inviting and spiritually fulfilling. I hope that the website and videos which we recommend here will help persuade him to see the advantages of being Jewish (and the disadvantages).
I do recommend you contact a local Chabad Rabbi and discuss your life situation with him. I have utmost trust in the wise wisdom of the Chabad Rabbis as I currently know personally three good Chabad rabbis in my area. If you prefer you can talk with any Orthodox rabbi who should be able to explain to you why we forbid intermarriage (and the Torah and Talmud sources for these prohibitions).
Please do not form your opinion of the entire JTF by this initial thread. I have great hope that you will grow by reading this forum, and hopefully you will be able to move your husband to take up Torah study. One thing to note though is that Judaism also forbids Tattoos ( http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/631046/jewish/Why-Does-Judaism-Forbid-Tattoos.htm ) so it might be better for him to cover it while initially talking with the Rabbi.
Have a great day,
muman613
See also:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/52730/jewish/part-I-1-7.htm
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Thanks.i sent an email to chabad.org and 1 to aish.com. I never met people as conservative as myself, and your views are almost as far to the right as mine are, and it appears in my attempt to try and satiate that desire for both Torah knowledge and jewish news that fit into my crazy little box of what i think is right it appears this link has opened up a can of worms that although i know is bashert ..my stomach turns at the implications now. And i get what you're saying are the rationalizations of the above but my respect is earned not given so no i don't forgive them. (your rabbi kahane used to come to my home when i was little......i remember him asking me to punch him in the stomach as hard as i could ( i was like 7) and i remember so well him making this face like i really hurt him and i started to cry..cause i felt bad i thought i relaly hurt him. after that i started karate at the old jdl.. ( a thousand years ago) I don't know why people become baaltshuv, but i think it's people...dead .family or others mabey that we never even met before who go to G-ds throne and see that a family has gone completley secular so they pray and ask G-d to make someone return..i don't know but the only time i remember religious people in my home as a child were rabbi kahana and shlomo carlebach who are both dead so mabey it was one of them..i don't know. but no i am not a troll..just a baaltshuva who got stuck in my learning i think.
Very interesting story... I just don't understand how you missed the important concept that intermarriage is forbidden because both Rabbi Kahane and Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach spoke frequently about preventing intermarriage...
http://www.torchweb.org/torah_detail.php?id=47
The basic problem with the book – and a problem that many Jews who are trying to solve the problem of intermarriage share - is clear from a story Dershowitz tells on himself. He notes that he would not himself wish to marry a non-Jewish woman, yet cannot fully explain to his own children why they should not. (In fact, Dershowitz relates, one of his sons married a Gentile.) His difficulties in thinking through the issue came to a head in a debate with the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, which Dershowitz--a brilliant debater--admits having lost:"
He asked me whether I wanted my children to marry Jews. Without hesitation, I said yes. Then he asked whether my desire was based on Halachah [Jewish law]. I said no. "Then," he insisted, pointing a finger at me, "you are nothing but a racist." I was taken aback by this strident accusation, but Kahane explained: "There are plenty of wonderful non-Jewish people who would make marvelous spouses for your children. Why are you excluding them all, unless you are obligated to exclude them by religious law? If you are merely expressing an ethnic preference for one of your own kind - that is the essence of racism." If Kahane was unkind in using the term "racist," his basic point was right. What possible reason is there to remain Jewish [especially] if one lacks deep cultural and ethnic roots--now very rare among American Jews--unless one actually believes in Judaism as a religion?
http://www.globalyeshiva.com/profiles/blogs/rabbi-meir-kahanes-legacy
In 1968, he founded the Jewish Defense League as a response to the rising tide of anti-Semitism in America's inner cities. Under Rabbi Kahane's leadership, JDL members engaged in protests against anti-Semitic teachers in the public school system, provided escorts for elderly Jews and educated Jewish youth in the art of self-defense. With a membership numbering over 15,000, the JDL organized mass rallies in New York against the Soviet Union's policy of persecuting Zionist activists and curbing Jewish immigration to Israel and they played the lead role in the "Free Soviet Jewry" movement through campaigning for the release of Russian refuseniks and their emigration to Israel. JDL also protested against the oppression of Jewish population in Muslim countries, battled Neo-Nazis and white supremacists in the United States and resisted Christian missionaries' activity to convert Jews.
In 1980, Rabbi Kahane formed the Kach political party in Israel and in 1984 was elected as a Member of the Knesset (MK). Rabbi Kahane refused to take the standard oath of office upon his election and insisted on adding a verse from Tehillim to indicate that when secular laws and Torah conflict, Torah law should have supremacy over the laws of the Knesset. Rabbi Kahane's legislative proposals focused on transferring the hostile Arab population out of Israel, revoking the Israeli citizenship for non-Jews and banning Jewish-Gentile marriages and sexual relations, based on the Code of Jewish Law compiled by the Rambam in the Mishneh Torah.
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http://www.torahanytime.com/media/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/2011-11-03/Intermarriage_The_Biggest_Threat_To_The_Jewish_Nation/Rabbi__Yossi_Mizrachi__Intermarriage_The_Biggest_Threat_To_The_Jewish_Nation__2011-11-03.wmv
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i was a kid. i'm sure r kahane never discussed that with me, and shlomo carlebach never once spoke about religion to me...i don't think my parents would have allowed either of them to even if they had tried. Until i watched a video this week on youtube i never heard rabbi kahana speak before and never i have never read any of his books.. and as for shlomo i didn't even know he was a rabbi.i thought he was just a singer with a kipa on..we talked about things but never judaism.as i stated my parents would probably not have allowed either of them to. (my sister is a lesbian)They are both proud jews but G-d was never spoken of in our home xcpt by my housekeeper who i spent most of my childhood with since my parents went away alot so she was very religious and taught me christianity and brought me to black churches and i always knew G-d was real so believed her..but until i got older and started to study the origions of what she was teaching me finally came to the conclusion that what she taught me wasn't real. I never went to high school but i did always continue studying about religions trying to figure out what was real but until someone gave me a Torah when i was 20 that was the first time i had ever read or seen that.then .one day after a decade of reading it i realised that the things it said were commandments and that i was supposed to do them,,so i stopped reading it and started studying it..After being let down in the morals department by every rabbi i ever met i just kept to the 613 commandments that i know are commandments, but stopped doing the prohibitions one of which i assum(ed) is not to intermarry. I 'm basically an observant jew (xcpt for the way i dress) living in a secular world which i don't mind a bit..I study Torah every day but never anything but Torah and Talmud....so still awaiting to see what the story is with this page and if it is actual laws or what...i'm not sure whats in ^ box.it's blank on my computer if it was meant for me to see. Are you a rabbi? Is what you write from your mind or quotes form other sources.
Shalom,
I am not a Rabbi though the thought has crossed my mind to go to Yeshiva to get Shmicha (ordination). I am a full-time Software Engineer at a technology company in Silicon Valley. I post my opinions but I always try to find the sources and post links to those sources.
I don't know what you mean 'prohibitions'? There are 613 commandments in the Torah, of these there are 248 positive (thou shall) commandments and 365 negative (thou shall not) commandments in the Torah. The negative commandments (all 365) are considered 'prohibitions'.
PS: I posted a video which discussed the issue of intermarriage..
See also:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/901695/jewish/Positive-Commandments.htm
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/901723/jewish/Negative-Commandments.htm
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/e0002.htm
Negative Command # 52
52. Not to marry gentiles, as [Deuteronomy 7:3] states: "Do not marry among them."
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/148995/jewish/On-Intermarriage.htm
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Also, another question I would like to bring up in this thread to those who know more about the Mishneh Torah:
This chapter on forbidden sexual relations appears to include the laws for conversion because conversion status affects whether someone is permissible/forbidden for marriage to Jews. I did not see anything in the conversion laws about converts having to take on a new name at their conversion and I'm not sure if there's another place that discusses it. Is re-naming converts a practice that has a basis in the Mishneh Torah at all or does it only come from other sources/traditions?
Perhaps when the Rambam talks about a Jew doing Teshuva as well. Just like in that case he has a new "identity" soo to speak, soo too for a convert who becomes a new person.
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Mental defect? That was not very nice at all! :'( :::D
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I'm unable to see a video.just a blank box with an x. I'll try with another laptop tonight. . By prohibitions i mean what i believe are rabbinical prohibitions..like putting a fence arounf the Torah with rabbinical prohibitions that are not commandments like touching money on shabbos, or tearing toilet paper.I need to get the house and dinner ready but hope to have time later to read up more as these posts are incredibly loooooong and much to go thru to get to the parts that are of concern to me. Have a good night and Shabbos and sorry for taking up too much time. Glad you're not a rabbi since i'd just find fault in you if you were :P
To answer your question about intermarriage it is not a rabbinic commandment but a Torah commandment as we pointed to the actual pasuk which forbids a Jew from marrying a non-Jew. Of course if the gentile converts (and he is not from a people who the Torah forbids (such as Moabite men)) then the marriage is permitted.
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To answer your question about intermarriage it is not a rabbinic commandment but a Torah commandment as we pointed to the actual pasuk which forbids a Jew from marrying a non-Jew. Of course if the gentile converts (and he is not from a people who the Torah forbids (such as Moabite men)) then the marriage is permitted.
We dont know anyone from that people today. All the nations are mixed thus the majority takes over and this nation doesn't exist no more.
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I just checked the Mishneh Torah laws of repentance, and it does mention that a Jew changing his name is one way of saying that they are a new person when they have repented of a sin. However I did not see anything requiring converts to change their names when they become Jews.
I said the reason perhaps why they would and they do. Because its the same concept of becoming new people. Also with converts they usually have non-Jewish names beforehand but are then given a Jewish name like the rest of Am Yisrael (a question can be asked in situations where non-jews already have jewish names- for example Sarah or Leah or David).
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Its Rabbinic prohibition for a Jew to be with a gentile And the punishment if lashes. BUT it is Deorita (from the Torah which is more strict) to not marry a gentile, the prohibition is even more severe.
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So in other words it's not a commandment from G-d that you can't be with a non jew..but it's a commandment from G-d that you can't marry one? Is that correct?
NO. You cannot be with a non-Jew either way. Just the degree of punishment and severity differ. If just for once or something (like a prostitute) get whipping, if as a relationship and as marriage the punishment is much worse (I believe its Karet).
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I have no idea what karet is but it sounds bad...However the halacha i recounted in chapter 12 are very clear that the punishment for relations within a marraige with a non jew is lashes which is scriptural. The punishment for relations with a non jew out of marraige is lashes but thats from the rabbis not G-d.unless the information is incomplete? I have yet to meet a rabbi worthy of my reverence so no offense but the rabbinical punishments and prohibitions are uninteresting to me...G-d gave me His commandments and until Moses is here i don't have any concern for the rabbinical commandments as these are just men .
The Torah commands us to honor the Torah sages, judges and rabbis. The oral law was given at Sinai and is just as binding as the written law. You are practicing a religion which is not Judaism but more like Samaratan and by Jewish law you would seem to fall under the category of denier of Torah. I am not saying this to be mean but you cannot pick and choose what laws to keep, this is the error of reform judaism.
See also : http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/710395/Rabbi_Daniel%20Z._Feldman/The%20Power%20of%20the%20Rabbis%20to%20Override%20Torah%20Law%20(Yesh%20Koach%20B%E2%80%99Y%E2%80%99dei%20Chachamim%20L%E2%80%99Akor%20Davar%20Min%20HaTorah%20B%E2%80%99Shev%20V%E2%80%99Al%20Ta%E2%80%99aseh)
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I have no idea what karet is but it sounds bad...However the halacha i recounted in chapter 12 are very clear that the punishment for relations within a marraige with a non jew is lashes which is scriptural. The punishment for relations with a non jew out of marraige is lashes but thats from the rabbis not G-d.unless the information is incomplete? I have yet to meet a rabbi worthy of my reverence so no offense but the rabbinical punishments and prohibitions are uninteresting to me...G-d gave me His commandments and until Moses is here i don't have any concern for the rabbinical commandments as these are just men .*Just looked up karet meaning and found (elsewhere) that the mishna kerithoth1:1 states the 36 sins punishable by kareth and none of them are relations with a non jew.
You said you were MARRIED to a goy. Now that is certainly from G-D. We were talking about someone who just had casual $%^ with a non-Jew. For that it is Rabbinic and the person gets lashes. their are even examples where such a person was sometimes even killed- even example in the Torah- for example Zimri with the Moabite princess. Pinchas killed both of them and G-D praised his for it. This was during the time of Moses.
And about the separate issue of Rabbinic court law- the court was made during the time of Moses himself. It is a commandment from the Torah to listen to the judges (of the Sanhedrin) and to what they established.
In either case your "marriage" to a goy is by Deorita (Torah or directly G-D's law).
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No one is telling you to listen to any Rabbi you met. But this was done by the great Sanhedrin which included Prophets and was made by the court of Moses.
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I'm not, not posting any longer because i don't like or believe that this is from the oral law......i did not know that and asked previously many times if it was from the Talmud. The reason i won't post again or have regard for what any of you have said is i don't appreciate being called a reform jew or that i'm not practicing judaism. There is a way to speak and a way not to speak to someone and apparantly none of you have mastered the art of gentleness which is apparantly because you're all too full of yourselves which is funny because you're so far beneath me. You are nothing more than a bunch of arrogant [censored] with the ability to read and recite Torah. You apparantly have mistaken my kindness for weakness which i can assure you it is not and i would never speak that way to anyone i was trying to teach Torah to. do not address me again.
I was kind and told you the answers to your questions. Because the answers perhaps do not suit your conscious does not mean you should try to attack me or others. Personally I do not take offense nor care. I was answering your question with the answers that the Torah gives. No need to shoot the messenger(s).
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I'm not, not posting any longer because i don't like or believe that this is from the oral law......i did not know that and asked previously many times if it was from the Talmud. The reason i won't post again or have regard for what any of you have said is i don't appreciate being called a reform jew or that i'm not practicing judaism. There is a way to speak and a way not to speak to someone and apparantly none of you have mastered the art of gentleness which is apparantly because you're all too full of yourselves which is funny because you're so far beneath me. You are nothing more than a bunch of arrogant [censored] with the ability to read and recite Torah. You apparantly have mistaken my kindness for weakness which i can assure you it is not and i would never speak that way to anyone i was trying to teach Torah to. do not address me again.
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Your hatred for rabbis has blinded you to what Jewish observance is. You cannot just pick and choose which commandments to keep. There are many commandments and many customs associated with them. If you want to practice Orthodox Judaism you should learn first before making statements like you made (which indicate you have never learned from an authentic Jewish source, rather you found commands that suit your life and only keep those).
The Oral law is the Talmud. The talmud is the recording of the Rabbis views and conversations. It is from these Rabbis which we learn the Halachas. Without the Oral law we would not be able to keep the Torah. For instance you should know that there is a commandment to put a mezuzah on your door. This is a TORAH commandment, but the Torah does not say what a mezuzah should contain or how to put in on the door. The oral law compliments the Written law. Other commandments such as how to observe Shabbat which the Torah mentions many times, but never explains what observing and keeping Shabbat means, are only explained by the Talmud. What does WORK mean? The Melachot (39 categories of forbidden labor) are derived through scriptural exegesis are expounded by the Rabbis of the Talmud. Do you just make up what is convenient to you to keep Shabbat? The Torah, when discussing Shabbat, mentions that the Israelites should not build the Mishkan on Shabbat and thus it is derived that all the labors involved in building the Mishkan are prohibited on Shabbat. Would you, by your own logic, have derived what it means to keep and observe Shabbat? I don't think you would.
You don't study the Talmud because if you did you would know some of these things..
I don't understand why you act so self-important. If you were truly Jewish you would try to learn instead of insisting your version of Judaism is correct. We Jews have keep these commandments for 1000s of years and you expect us to suddenly accept your watered down interpretation? I think you are the rude one who has turned away all those who try to supply you with answers to your questions. But maybe they were not questions to begin with, and you are set in your incorrect ways and attempting to justify your errors.
I wish you well on your journey... Please seek the truth and maybe someday you will really understand what it means to be a religious Jew.
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I feel bad that this turned out the way it did. I really had hope that we could work together and learn out the laws according to our sages. But her majesty seems to reject all the Jewish sages and Rabbis and wants to decide if the laws make sense to her, and if not they are discarded. It is good to try to understand why we do commandments but there are some commandments which we will never fully understand. We should try our best to understand why the command was given by Hashem but even if we don't we should keep it because it is what Hashem commanded, either directly or through the power given to the Torah sages. When one rejects the sages he rejects the Torah, as according to Rambam a person who rejects the wisdom of the sages of the Talmud is called a heretic.
I do not take any pleasure in this. Without understanding the importance of those who codified and expounded on the commandments we would not be able to keep the Jewish religion. If everyone interpreted the Torah according to their own understanding we would not have Jewish communities, but a fragmented and divisive people. For thousands of years we have kept the Torah and Talmud and they are the force which keeps the blood of the Jewish people pumping. When Jews reject their heritage they are actively destroying their people.
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I am sorry if this sounds blunt, but according to some definitions the denial of the sages is a trait of an apikoros.
http://www.oztorah.com/2007/04/an-apikoros-ask-the-rabbi/
A. It means “unbeliever”. Using this epithet is an insult only if you intend it to be such. But though an apikoros is missing out on the inspiration that comes from being a believer, no-one can be forced to believe, and you cannot argue them into belief.
Homiletically, the word derives from pakar, “to break forth”, and hence it is someone who rebels against traditional religion; an associated word, hefker, means free or abandoned. Historically, the name is from the Greek philosopher Epicurus (341-270 BCE), who believed that with the correct philosophy of life a person could reach “quietude of mind and steadfast faith”. Associated with his name is the view that though the universe is eternal and infinite, nothing is created out of nothing and nothing passes into nothing. The soul is destructible; pleasure is the beginning and end of the good life. The existence of God or the gods is not denied, but God (or the gods) do not control the world or feel concern for man. (See Josephus, Antiquities 10:11:7; cf. Maimonides, Guide for the Perplexed 3:17).
Judaism found this problematical. It preferred seriousness and moral strictness to pleasure and indulgence. It believed not only that God was the Creator but that His Providence continued to rule the creation. It could not accept that God had abandoned His world and left it hefker, ownerless. It developed a firm doctrine of the two worlds – this world and the World to Come. It applied the term apikoros to anyone who rejected these basic Jewish doctrines and warned that the apikoros had no share in the World to Come (Mishnah Sanh. 10:1).
In due course it extended the meaning of the term very widely to anyone who did not show respect to the sages. Me’iri (13th cent.)
defines an apikoros as one who despises a learned person and his learning and thus denies the things he should believe in (commentary to Sanh. 90a).
To Maimonides (Hilchot T’shuvah, chapter 3), an apikoros rejects prophecy and the prophetic status of Moses, and denies that God knows the deeds of human beings. The Shulchan Aruch adds that the apikoros not only lacks belief but transgresses the law on purpose, e.g. by eating forbidden food or wearing sha’atnez, a prohibited mixture of textiles (CH.M. 425:5).
There is a distinction between an apikoros and an am ha’aretz, an ignoramus. An unbeliever who is also an ignoramus is a major problem, because he does not know what it is that he does not believe in. Hence when the Mishnah says that one must know what to answer an apikoros (Avot 2:14), it may be saying that he must not be allowed to remain uninformed.
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@Her Majesty, I can relate to you. I married before I was really religious, I married a Lutheran, which is something that my grandmother is against. My grandmother was a gnostic or a Czech Unitarian, something like that. Which is what lead me to the root of religion, which is Judiasm. So I am A Nochide now, which is very difficult at times and frustrating, beings there are no Jews around me, let alone does anyone know what the heck a Noachide is.
I hope you don't leave!
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I think some people here hardened by fighting traitors... and muslims... most men can't handle fighting while being stabbed in the back by their brothers.
Good point LKZ!
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her majesty is neither an apikorsis, or a heretic , and least of all an ignoramus . she is a beautiful angel with a heart of gold. forget the muslims and germans and all the other enemies of the jewish people. if they knew how much you hated each other and how cruel you are to each other they would leave you alone and wait for you all to kill each other. i'm not seeing a big difference at this moment between your intrepretation of judaism and the islamic view of islam and what is to be done with anyone who does not believe exactly as they do. this is certainly eye opening. you are your own worst enemies. and your security frankly stinks. it took less than 3 attempts at answering a silly question to gain access to this account. brilliant.
Shalom Her Majesty,
I recognize that you feel that you were not treated properly by us here at JTF. Please believe me that I am truly sorry for your hurt feelings. Sometimes in the pursuit of doing the right thing we sometimes act without thinking of the feelings of another person. I really tried in my first response to you to reach out and understand your circumstances. I still feel that you can be reached by us, if there is truly a Jewish soul residing in your heart.
A major aspect of Jewish belief is that humanity and specifically Jews have a divine mission in this world. I did not wake up to this mission till I was in my late 30s and after much pain in my personal life. In order to accept Hashem we must be able to lower ourselves, becoming more humble. While I know you think we are arrogant for telling you what we think about those who reject the sages of the Talmud, what we say is the truth according to Jewish law. Today we live in a world without the Temple and thus we cannot fully execute Jewish law, but we can learn the spiritual guidance which these laws intend to teach us. This is what we do when we study Torah, attempt to learn the messages which Hashem provided to us through the teachings of the Torah.
If you accept that the Torah was divinely given to the Jewish people and it is the blueprint for all of creation then you can accept that all wisdom should be able to be derived from the Torah, and the questions about observance can be deduced by the sages. I do not know everything and I spend over 2 hours a day constantly learning new Torah lessons. This knowledge is applicable to our lives, and it is this knowledge which I believe is the key to winning the battle against the evil in the world.
If you are honest in your desire to grow as a Jewish person I will be glad to continue working with you, to guide you to sources and resources which can assist you. If you just seek to continue seeing us in an ugly light with bad intentions for you then I cannot tell you what to do, you are entitled to your opinion.
Nobody here takes pleasure (at least not myself) in suggesting someone is engaging in aveirah (prohibited actions/sins). I admit that I have done many things which are wrong by the Torah, but the Torah and the Jewish faith put a lot of belief in the concept of Teshuva/Return/Repentance. I hope that we can work around our differences and keep you around JTF...
PS: If you are 'Her Majesty' why don't you know your password? Are you saying you are really a troll? I sure hope you are just making a joke..
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I hate to say this, but I think it might be rosenberg. Is that what his name was?
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So, You're spying on your wife, that is really sad!
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after 2 attempts i was refused registration only intending to message my wife privately to let her know i was aware of what had been said to her here after this web address kept coming up on her computer whenever i use it. i wanted to see if she was still coming here and would discuss it together. it was then i gained access to her account by guessing her security answer and seeing on her profile she was not active any longer. she will not be "working with you" you must be out of your [censored] mind to think that i would allow that. if i remember correctly muman you called her an ignoramus for gods sake what is wrong with you people.? she will be forbidden to have any internet time on this website and most certainly access to this account any longer as i have changed all the information. i don't know who rosenberg is but paranoia seems to be the order of the day around here. i have deleted her posts and will delete these last 2 after i see if she still spends time studying on this website which no decent person should be . for whatever good can be gained from any positive information here it is not worth the corruption of the indecency.
So basically you are spying on your wife... Both of you seem to be made for each other so be our guests and leave. If you have no desire to learn and assume you will influence others with your often off-the-mark views then there will be no good in continuing.