JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Confederate Kahanist on December 01, 2012, 01:33:39 AM
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Another convincing video from Crowder as always:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv4x2pRMamE
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I do think it should be legalized, though personally I would not smoke it.
I think we as a society have enough experience with Alcohol and Tobacco to deal with any social problems pot causes, we can use experience with those two legal substances and use similar tactics with pot once it becomes legal.
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I do think it should be legalized, though personally I would not smoke it.
I think we as a society have enough experience with Alcohol and Tobacco to deal with any social problems pot causes, we can use experience with those two legal substances and use similar tactics with pot once it becomes legal.
Good argument Meerkat even though doobies really do some permanent damage.
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I like how he uses the ranting/raving anti-Semite as the reason you shouldn't use drugs. :::D
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I like how he uses the ranting/raving anti-Semite as the reason you shouldn't use drugs. :::D
LOL, but lets be honest, an alcoholic could spew stupid crap like that too, not just stoners
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQCMQgVhQwsRyoisIKQLZoyfHQ6c_ywXQLQY4r3Gm1_4Tx4m6slJ6kmugrS)
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LOL, but lets be honest, an alcoholic could spew stupid crap like that too, not just stoners
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQCMQgVhQwsRyoisIKQLZoyfHQ6c_ywXQLQY4r3Gm1_4Tx4m6slJ6kmugrS)
It's also a good reason not to be an alcoholic.
Do realize that alcoholics and others who ruin lives through alcohol didn't set out to do that in the beginning
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who cares just let these idiots smoke. Why are we protecting them anyway? Let them
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who cares just let these idiots smoke. Why are we protecting them anyway? Let them
It's not a question of protecting "them" its a question of protecting the general public from functional pot smokers who might be driving the kiddies school bus half in the bag... Pot smoking starts off simple enough and if people move away from it as they become more serious in life it's really not a problem... I have seen many life long pot smokers who are 30 and 40 years old give up or loose good jobs because they just can't be without the stuff... Many employers today expect their people to be drug free... I have see pot smokers stay away from the stuff long enough to pass the hiring drug test but can't continue employment because the are unable to deal with the random tests some positions require... People who smoke pot for a number of years usually have the habit at the top of their daily priorities even before work and paying the bills... You can pick people like this out from a mile away... People who drink on the job or come into work half lit are very easy to pick out... Pot is a bit different... A pot smoker can get lost for a few moments and smoke away and then come back and operate a machine or drive a bus that could injure many people... The states that are making stuff like this easy to get are making a very big mistake in the long term picture... I can't see tossing people in jail for having a small amount of this garbage but I personally can't see selling it in the corner drug store either.
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Perhaps future Ask JTF question-
What Halachic justification is their to bann people from smoking Marijuana (in Israel that is)? Even if we do not like the results what and why do you feel you or even a Jewish court would have the right/authority/ or ability to bann people from smoking this (with penalties to offenders).
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A few more things to consider.
Is it not a great deal easier to explain to your children not to use drugs when those drugs ALSO happen to be illegal and have grave legal consequences in addition to the negative health and safety and quality of life consequences you are alerting them to? Isn't it a great deal of reinforcement to your position as a parent when you can point to the fact that the law authorities do not allow people to take these substances? And don't you lose a great deal of "bargaining power" or authority when the kid can turn around and say, 'it's perfectly legal, so I'm not doing anything wrong by doing it.'
Don't you think that stoned people pose a risk when driving? Isn't that common sense? Your judgment is impaired by a psychadelic or mind-altering drug. That is FACT. Driving requires judgment. With how many thousands of people are maimed, injured and killed by drunk drivers each year, do we need another subset of driver-murderers to harm even more people on the road?
The crack-heads that claim smoking pot doesn't affect their driving are the delusional who insist at all costs to legalize their dependency opiate. They are willing to risk YOUR life and MY life to give you that anecdotal account that "I'm not impeded at all when driving stoned" and to convince you that there is no risk.
Guess what, geniuses: Many drunken idiots also believe that alcohol does not affect their driving. Science says otherwise!
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I agree with Chaim on the subject of weed and all other drugs.
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A few more things to consider.
Is it not a great deal easier to explain to your children not to use drugs when those drugs ALSO happen to be illegal and have grave legal consequences in addition to the negative health and safety and quality of life consequences you are alerting them to? Isn't it a great deal of reinforcement to your position as a parent when you can point to the fact that the law authorities do not allow people to take these substances? And don't you lose a great deal of "bargaining power" or authority when the kid can turn around and say, 'it's perfectly legal, so I'm not doing anything wrong by doing it.'
Don't you think that stoned people pose a risk when driving? Isn't that common sense? Your judgment is impaired by a psychadelic or mind-altering drug. That is FACT. Driving requires judgment. With how many thousands of people are maimed, injured and killed by drunk drivers each year, do we need another subset of driver-murderers to harm even more people on the road?
The crack-heads that claim smoking pot doesn't affect their driving are the delusional who insist at all costs to legalize their dependency opiate. They are willing to risk YOUR life and MY life to give you that anecdotal account that "I'm not impeded at all when driving stoned" and to convince you that there is no risk.
Guess what, geniuses: Many drunken idiots also believe that alcohol does not affect their driving. Science says otherwise!
The best chinuch you can give the child in this situation is to take him/her to a health clinic with people who abused with these substances. I think that does a lot more education then the lagal system ever will. Most teenagers don't give a ______ about the legality and other such things. The proof is the fact that the vast majority have tried it.
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The question of marijuana is a recurring theme. It has been posted about and asked in AskJTF. The official JTF stance on it is that it's bad and should be illegal. Not just the official JTF stance on it, but also the opinion of most members. Except for medicinal purposes. I don't think it should be asked about over and over in askJTF because we all know the answer will be "no and it should be illegal" etc..etc..
For me, I am for legalizing it. Not forbidden in the Torah so I'm ok with it, I'm fond of it in fact. In small moderation just like having a glass of wine every once in a while. More people do it than they like to admit.
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The question of marijuana is a recurring theme. It has been posted about and asked in AskJTF. The official JTF stance on it is that it's bad and should be illegal. Not just the official JTF stance on it, but also the opinion of most members. Except for medicinal purposes. I don't think it should be asked about over and over in askJTF because we all know the answer will be "no and it should be illegal" etc..etc..
For me, I am for legalizing it. Not forbidden in the Torah so I'm ok with it, I'm fond of it in fact. In small moderation just like having a glass of wine every once in a while. More people do it than they like to admit.
I agree. I am for medical mj and think it should be legal with a doctors perscription. I am not for general legalization though for the reason that kids should not have easy access to it. I did not smoke it till I was an adult (19 years old) and I am glad I waited because I don't know if it would have affected my academic record. But I also know that I was gainfully employed even when I smoked it and I never was suspected or asked to take a drug test.
As I said I am against general legalization because it also could lead others to harder drugs. I am staunchly against legalizing any of the hard drugs such as amphetamines, cocaine, xtasy, or heroine (who would ever want that drug?) This is my opinion.
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In my younger days I was accused of 'Driving under the influence' of pot....
Needless to say I was not found guilty... My public defender got me off on that charge when I pleaded not guilty...
ps: lkz, I'm a 'coca-cola head' myself... I drink nearly a 12pack a day (joking...)
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I think the main issue with pot use is the long-term use..... Especially with youth... the brain damage it causes is dramatic and irreversible.
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I think the main issue with pot use is the long-term use..... Especially with youth... the brain damage it causes is dramatic and irreversible.
This is debatable also. But I don't want to argue about this point. Eventually the truth will be known...
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I think the main issue with pot use is the long-term use..... Especially with youth... the brain damage it causes is dramatic and irreversible.
Soo does watching MTV, but I dont hear people trying to bann that. ;D
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Let me make my opinion a little clearer. I am against generally using any substance as a drug. We should be happy with the way we are. But man is often seeking new experiences, and pot is an experience which is not as damaging as others, and it provides some with a state of mind conducive to creativity (such as music, song, art, and software engineering). When I was in college (one of the top ten Computer Science schools) almost everyone smoked (and this was in the 1980s)... My best friend in High School went to Cornell University and got a PHD and now works for DARPA and he too smoked pot (and tried LSD too). I have many examples of software engineers who work for major corporations who have smoked also...
So while I think that we should not need these substances, and we should truly understand the damage caused (if there is damage caused), we should also consider the benefits. I do believe there is medicinal uses for pot, and it does alleviate pain and anxiety. It works very effectively, more than any pharmaceutical substance.
I realize I am in the minority here. But I believe my experience is not unique. And I hope that we can deal with the question in a mature way which is the best for society.
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This is debatable also. But I don't want to argue about this point. Eventually the truth will be known...
For every Soo does watching MTV, but I dont hear people trying to bann that. ;D
So does sticking a nail in your head... so does drinking gasoline... so does watching Barney..... so does smoking Opium..... The problem is certain things cause more brain damage than others... and from the most comprehensive long term studies... Pot brain damage is significant... especially in the developmental years.
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The guy that discovered DNA, was a acid head, from what I remember!
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For every
So does sticking a nail in your head... so does drinking gasoline... so does watching Barney..... so does smoking Opium..... The problem is certain things cause more brain damage than others... and from the most comprehensive long term studies... Pot brain damage is significant... especially in the developmental years.
Exactly. And these things aren't illegal.
Anyway I did not want the legal (U.S. laws), but the HALACHIC justification to bann it in Israel even if it is proven to be bad for society and individuals. Donuts are bad for people, we dont see Rabbis not giving Hachgafa to donuts, yett the individual consumer should definitely limit him/her self with donuts.
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The guy that discovered DNA, was a acid head, from what I remember!
Acid is FAR worse than marijuana.... FAR worse.... that doesnt mean that there werent brilliant people on acid... but many regret being on acid more than you can imagine.
Taking acid can be like playing Russian Roulette... Some acid heads can't complete sentences... some have such severe brain damage.. some are near vegetables.
I really lament taking acid as a youth.... my brother was a dead head... and it was always around.
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Exactly. And these things aren't illegal.
Anyway I did not want the legal (U.S. laws), but the HALACHIC justification to bann it in Israel even if it is proven to be bad for society and individuals. Donuts are bad for people, we dont see Rabbis not giving Hachgafa to donuts, yett the individual consumer should definitely limit him/her self with donuts.
well... I am somewhat of a libertarian... so I agree with you here.... I don't like the government getting involved.
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In my point of view... Does G-d tell you that you cannot do these type of things, no he does not! America is a free nation, and you should be able to do what you want, if you go overboard then you have to deal with your maker!
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There is no halacha for weed.
Perhaps in the general Misswah to take care of one's health.
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It makes me do more pull ups.
That is a Misswah as well- working out, taking care of one's body and being healthy.
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There is a limit to how high you can get. There is none with drunkenness.
And yet, even a little bit of drunkenness impairs driving.
People that have been doing it for years pose 1/1000000 of the risk that any drunk driver would pose.
Why? Because you made that up and you feel good about it?
Also, people who smoke crack are crackheads, and there is no dependency with weed, coca cola is more addicting.
I used the term "crack heads" as a perjorative, not a suggestion that people who smoke weed also smoke crack, although obviously some of them do. The very messed up people who try to convince others that marijuana does not impair driving with absolutely no proof to back them up, are indeed crack heads.
There are no studies indicating reduced response time or poorer reflexes from weed, or basketball players would suck.
lol, you can't be serious. Basketball players do not play while stoned!
And there are no studies indicating a lot of things because the substance is illegal and expensive and therefore difficult to study. There are certainly no studies proving that weed improves or maintains response time or reflexes. But you and your fellow travelers would like us to legalize the substance so that we can study it in depth and find out all these qualities of a weed high? And meanwhile, how many people have to die while that fact finding mission is ongoing?
There is no hallucination, or severely mind altering affect from weed.
Who cares? You added the word "severely." It is a fact that a MIND ALTERING substance, alters the mind. And therefore impacts driving and the handling of heavy machinery, etc. You don't like the facts because you want to keep toking up, huh? Well we both know I'm not stopping you from doing anything, but it sounds to me more like you want to justify your behaviors than having any kind of objective discussion about it.
People that do it all the time experience nothing other than a relaxed feeling.
That's all I feel after a few drinks. And yet, my driving would be impaired if I got into a car God forbid.
If it's your first time smoking weed, you will cause an accident while driving, but on your first beer ever, driving is unsafe too. After a while you can't get past the "one beer" level, no matter how much you smoke.
What are the facts that support your assertions?
I know a doctor, a chemist, an accountant and a construction worker that drive and work with it, and you'd be lucky if they kicked your ass for calling them crackheads, because if not, I'd have to.
Oh look another keyboard warrior. I'm so scared I can hardly contain myself.
Meanwhile, explain to me the relevance that a d-bag is a chemist, accountant, or doctor by trade.
Resorting to threats doesn't make you any less incorrect.
, so people'll spray whatever in anything green, and get you high and dumb. In it's natural state, weed is not physically harmful.
That only adds to my point. That makes it worse.
Speed or mushrooms or any opiate or cocaine or, G-d forbid, meth, and any of these serious drugs will cause massive trauma to your mind. You can not very well perform anything useful with your head while on them, unless you write for the NY times or are a modern artist. There's a difference, and I sure as shoot would stake my living that if you spotted me walking, you nor anybody else would think I was a low-down crackhead, G-d forbid.
"Crack head" is a perjorative term in addition to describing an actual person who actually smokes crack. Would you prefer that I use the term d-bag instead? Jerk? Moron?
In sum:
1. It does not matter that weed is legal, it will change nothing.
That doesn't even make sense. It will change a lot of things.
2. I would rather that hippies abuse it and addle their worthless minds rather than using them to protest all that is good and decent in this here world.
3. You should focus on the real issues if you want support with the youth, even they don't care as much as you think about legalizing it as a drug, many know its industrial, nutritional and medical uses, and its current standing as the only efficient bio-fuel, not to mention its vastly superior rate of photosynthesis in comparison to trees.
"Only efficient biofuel" ? what the hell are you talking about? I am focused on very real issues, but someone started this thread, and I responded to it. When my safety and the safety of my loved ones is put at risk, then it is a real issue. And since so many states are now trying to legalize it, it is a real issue. I don't care how "cool" or "not cool" it is to talk about this topic - it needs to be discussed and considered in more than a superficial way to decide how to proceed with it. Your type of "just let me do my thing because anecdotally I believe that it's all fine and don't dare say anything about it cause kids will resent you" approach to this is absurd.
You think they've changed anything? You've been given a groundhog to bark at, so that you're the bad dog and look the part, when in reality, replacing middle eastern oil or using the materials in paper, clothes, rope, and manufacturing otherwise, as well as replacing toxic and disgusting soy products that increase breast cancer risk and make men women is still just as illegal as it was yesterday, while you go out barking and while the kids are more than happy to tear up your lawn, and the real root of the problem has made the full cycle and it is now hidden that this plant could have kept us from dependance on the middle east and multinational corporations and their garbage crap shops. Real sharp pack over here.
No comment.
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This is debatable also. But I don't want to argue about this point. Eventually the truth will be known...
Ahh yes, and how many people will damage themselves until we prove and know that truth with absolute certainty? We need to use our common sense.
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Let me make my opinion a little clearer. I am against generally using any substance as a drug. We should be happy with the way we are. But man is often seeking new experiences, and pot is an experience which is not as damaging as others, and it provides some with a state of mind conducive to creativity (such as music, song, art, and software engineering). When I was in college (one of the top ten Computer Science schools) almost everyone smoked (and this was in the 1980s)... My best friend in High School went to Cornell University and got a PHD and now works for DARPA and he too smoked pot (and tried LSD too). I have many examples of software engineers who work for major corporations who have smoked also...
So while I think that we should not need these substances, and we should truly understand the damage caused (if there is damage caused), we should also consider the benefits. I do believe there is medicinal uses for pot, and it does alleviate pain and anxiety. It works very effectively, more than any pharmaceutical substance.
Medical uses is a separate subject which has nothing to do with this topic. When people speak about legalization, they are not talking about medicinal usage. That would be legalization of medicinal marijuana. That's something else.
Let's be clear. Legalizing marijuana would make it accessible to everyone for any use they desire. Whereas, right now it is illegal. I don't see how that should be a beneficial change.
As to your personal experience, when I was in college, many people smoked weed too, but even more used alcohol for binge drinking. The purpose was the same in both cases. To "Party." Do you really believe the Torah encourages partying? The Tanach is negative about drunkenness in multiple places - because it leads to sinful behavior. Any type of high or drug would have a similar effect and probably could be substituted for drunkenness in that sense.
As to your claim about marijuana being superior to any pharmaceutical for pain treatment, I'm not so sure about that. And it certainly will not remain the case for very long, even if that is true currently (which I do not know how you determined. Is that really so?). Wait til you see what's coming out next. NGF inhibitors - very very potent.
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It's disgusting to see so many JTFers agreeing with Nazi Paul and other filth on such a no-brainer issue.
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It's disgusting to see so many JTFers agreeing with Nazi Paul and other filth on such a no-brainer issue.
yeah well Hitler ysv loved dogs, yet common sense suggests that not every dog lover has the interior of his house decorated with swastikas.
so what if Ron Paul ys agrees on this issue, we see his other positions and are disgusted by them.
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There is nothing wrong with having a position of......
1) Drugs are bad/evil
2) Politicians telling use what adults can and cannot do is bad... (assuming that our actions doesnt infringe on the rights of others)
These 2 arent mutually exclusive....
and by the way....
On the topic of the 3rd Reich... Hitler militantly hated drugs, smoking... and was a vegetarian.... and had the original intention of outlawing smoking as part of his Aryan utopia...
Also...
Naziism and libertarianism are as idiologically as far apart as can possibly be.... and Ron Paul corrupted and twisted libertarianism into his own brand of faux libertrianism....
Many righteous conservatives... including Glenn Beck and Larry Elders consider themselves libertarians.
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Isn't legalizing drugs more of that 'anything goes' mentality that has destroyed America.
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I have to agree with Hitler over Ron Paul on this issue. I believe the state should play in a role in upholding moral uprightness and responsible behaviors. I don't believe in letting people put mind-altering substances in their bodies and induce terrifying experiences, life-ruining addictions, and sickness and death. Libertarians aren't really conservatives. In fact, they used to call themselves classical liberals! But many of their free market ideas turned out to be gold, which is why I don't support the old kind of conservativism that they were first railing against. That's the way I see it right now anyway.
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People will get the drugs anyway! If they can't, they'll find something else, and in many cases it's worse. Look at what K2 and bath salts are doing to kids, it's killing them!
It's kind of like saying we should outlaw guns, that way nobody will get shot anymore.
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There is nothing wrong with having a position of......
1) Drugs are bad/evil
2) Politicians telling use what adults can and cannot do is bad... (assuming that our actions doesnt infringe on the rights of others)
These 2 arent mutually exclusive....
and by the way....
On the topic of the 3rd Reich... Hitler militantly hated drugs, smoking... and was a vegetarian.... and had the original intention of outlawing smoking as part of his Aryan utopia...
Also...
Naziism and libertarianism are as idiologically as far apart as can possibly be.... and Ron Paul corrupted and twisted libertarianism into his own brand of faux libertrianism....
Many righteous conservatives... including Glenn Beck and Larry Elders consider themselves libertarians.
Over the weekend I watched 'High Hitler' which exposes that Hitler was a dope addict, addicted to methamphetamines and other substances..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ_1Acw5I3Y
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1371512/Nazis-fed-speed-infantrymen-tested-cocaine-like-stimulant-concentration-camps.html
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Over the weekend I watched 'High Hitler' which exposes that Hitler was a dope addict, addicted to methamphetamines and other substances..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ_1Acw5I3Y
I remember seeing a raw video of him at the 36 olympic games.... and he was shaking uncontrollably.... and everyone around him was pretending not to notice it... I wouldnt be surprised if that was him coming down from his drugs..
But nonetheless... my point was about he and other fascists... always try to control anything and everything other people do... and he was considering outlawing smoking altogether... but apparently, so much of Germany smoked... he decided to 'put it off'.
Also... N. Korea does this all the time... they ban all sorts of foods/etc for the 'good of the state'... but these very same things are allowed by all the high level communists.
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yeah well Hitler ysv loved dogs, yet common sense suggests that not every dog lover has the interior of his house decorated with swastikas.
so what if Ron Paul ys agrees on this issue, we see his other positions and are disgusted by them.
Because the issue itself is disgusting in this case. This isn't raw milk or some other innocuous position.
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Isn't legalizing drugs more of that 'anything goes' mentality that has destroyed America.
Yes Bullcat, it's the same "victimless crime" mindset that has most stupid brainwashed Americans supporting amnesty. I wouldn't be surprised if drug users are much more likely to support amnesty than abstainers.
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I'm definitely not pro drugs, but we are not winning the war on drugs. If they were legal they would be regulated by the FDA and taxed, more jobs and tax revenue. It would be a major blow to the drug cartels, gangs, and crime. What is ghetto currency, drugs! They're going to do the drugs anyway, so what's better? Parents that do drugs, or parents that do and make drugs with their children in the house so the toxic chemicals can enter into their blood, or young gang members getting sent out to steal anhydrous and having their faces burnt off?
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I'm definitely not pro drugs, but we are not winning the war on drugs. If they were legal they would be regulated by the FDA and taxed, more jobs and tax revenue. It would be a major blow to the drug cartels, gangs, and crime. What is ghetto currency, drugs! They're going to do the drugs anyway, so what's better? Parents that do drugs, or parents that do and make drugs with their children in the house so the toxic chemicals can enter into their blood, or young gang members getting sent out to steal anhydrous and having their faces burnt off?
Well the war on drugs is going about it the wrong way. This could be by design. Perhaps corrupt people in our government / police departments wanted a program that would indefinitely require huge amounts of spending so they could pocket a lot of it. What I meant was more along the lines of a national mandatory drug test. And we should invest in the technology to make the drug test more sophisticated/accurate.
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That's [censored] disgusting. You could read people's DNA with those, and loose job opportunities because of your tendency to autoimmune diseases or heart problems, not to mention falsify the results to set someone up. Who would administer the tests? Who will pay for the tests? Drug use punishment should be less harmful than the drug. A year in a jail full of criminals is worse than a joint, and a national drug test is more expensive than its purchase, and the economic loss sustained through its use. What kind of an evil terrible dictator you would be to institute such a travesty. Would you punish people for missing the forcible drug test? At what age should it start? Should it be random; cops just break into your home and take the pee? Should tourists be subjected to random forcible invasive drug tests? If you really want all, red or blue states to succeed, just you ask ol' Bummer to institute that one.
Low lifes should get tested all the time!
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I'm surprised nobody countered me on my statement? I say we either legalize drugs, or we kick the crap out of drug dealers!
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PS: It is now legal to buy an ounce or less of marijuana in Washington State and Colorado. (Still a federal crime but not a state crime).
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I suppose you should be in charge of determining who is and isn't. Mandatory surveys,
No, But I do support welfare recipients being tested!
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I agree, more government plans involving more spending will solve everything.
That would be money well spent. If you are on welfare you shouldn't be buying recreational drugs. People are drug tested for work. Why not, in order, to receive welfare?
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Ok 50$ extra per welfare recipient. Of course another 50 for security when they refuse, another 100 for legal proceedings, and another 500 to evict them from their house, and another 10,000 to put them in jail for resisting. You paying? You'd have an easier time banning welfare.
They should lose their benefits if they fail, or refuse to take the tests! The majority of welfare recipients are druggies that have been working the system for generations, think of the money we would save!
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It would be a disaster. And is the stupidest idea I've ever heard about drugs. Who cares what they do, their being on welfare is my only problem.
They spend a majority of their welfare money on drugs, so they are not paying taxes on any of the money that we give them, so if they're on drugs they don't get any money!
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What a big mistake...we are becoming an immoral society..there will be more accidents and abuses from Pot heads, as there are from drunks!