JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Binyamin Yisrael on May 17, 2013, 12:33:13 AM
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Why does a religious Jewish forum allow Jews to post on Yom Tov?
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Should the forum close for Shabbat and Yom Tov?
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I think the time zone filter is best option as there are those of us in Israel & those that live in Europe that post on the forum when shabbat is over here but while it is still shabbat in NY.
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It used to close for Shabbat in NY Time. What happened?
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The forum used to close for Shabbats and Yom Tov.... But the non-Jews seemed to have prevailed in getting the admins to leave the forum open...
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If someone sees a JTF video and thinks "That forum sounds pretty cool, I'm going to go check it out" and then goes to the forum and it's down, then they are likely to just forget about it.
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no.
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Why does a religious Jewish forum allow Jews to post on Yom Tov?
Who is Jewish that posted on Yom Tov?
Also if it was posted on the second day it is NOT Yom Tov here in Israel where we do only one day Yom Tov.
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Don't forget that there is a ten hour time zone difference between Israel and Los Angeles. So it could turn out that a Jew from Israel is posting on the forum after his Shavuot is over, while it might still be the middle of the Shavuot holiday for the Jew in L.A.
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Frum Jews have self restrains and they should regulate their internet use on their own.
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The forum used to close for Shabbats and Yom Tov.... But the non-Jews seemed to have prevailed in getting the admins to leave the forum open...
I think most non Jewish members respect the decisions of the admins. You are the only one that tried to prevail. Stop starting trouble where there is none.
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NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The forum used to close for Shabbats and Yom Tov.... But the non-Jews seemed to have prevailed in getting the admins to leave the forum open...
The admins decide. Not the non-Jews or the Jews.
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No. Many are non-jews.
The decision was already made.
It used to be open then closed and back open again.
And how would you stop a Jew from going to other forums or using a computer?
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Frum Jews have self restrains and they should regulate their internet use on their own.
If a movement claims to be a religious Jewish movement but has Jews posting on Yom Tov and Shabbat, how is G-d going to let such a movement succeed? It's just like the Israeli Government should not do business on Shabbat because Israel is a Jewish state.
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If a movement claims to be a religious Jewish movement but has Jews posting on Yom Tov and Shabbat, how is G-d going to let such a movement succeed? It's just like the Israeli Government should not do business on Shabbat because Israel is a Jewish state.
This is religious demagoguery nothing more. And who are you to lecture on the forums policies ? Just stay out of the forum yourself on shabbat.
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I do remember that when this forum was created in 2007, it was shut down on the sabbath on Friday nights and most of Saturday. I don't know what happened, but I guess that the policy changed because there are some members here who aren't Jewish and wanted to post something here but couldn't because of the Sabbath and the site was closed because of it.
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Because gentiles use this forum on Jewish holidays. Therefore this forum is not closed on Jewish festivals and holidays and Shabbat. Secondly, what stops a Jew from one time zone from posting when their Shabat falls at a different time than when this forum closes?
Therefore, it is in in the initiative of the Jew to practice Judaism and not be forced. That way he/she uses his/her free will to do the right thing. And when it is done through his free will, the reward is greater.
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I'm up for anything to be honest. If it is decided to be closed, fine. If not, fine.
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You'd better keep an eye on those non-Jews. You never know what we're going to be up to next!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw
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I think people have misinterpreted what I was saying. I don't suggest that non-Jews are obligated to observe the Shabbat. Of course this is not the case, we do not impose our belief on those who are not Jewish. Non Jews have no reason to keep the Sabbath.
But the issue to me, honestly, is that by remaining open we are benefiting from work which is done on the Sabbath. Ask yourself why a Jewish store owner should close his store on the Sabbath. Every religious Jew deals with this problem, that by closing the shop on Sabbath they are losing money they otherwise would make on the day. Those Jews who open their stores on Sabbath are violating the Sabbath and being rewarded for it. The sages explain that any gains made by a Jew (financially or through labor) may only appear to be gains, but in the long run they are punished for their transgressing of the Sabbath.
We should protest people who open their businesses on the Sabbath, we should boycott them and should rebuke them. Some may consider this 'religious coercion' or whatnot. The issue is, to me, an issue of placing a stumbling block before the blind. Maybe a person born Jewish comes across this site and sees that we are claiming to be the followers of the great Rabbi Kahane, who to the best of my knowledge observed the Shabbat according to Orthodox standards, and he also encouraged all Jews to keep the Torah. We Jews who want to continue the legacy of Kahane must also continue the legacy of Shabbat observance otherwise we are not being true to the ideals of our mentor. When others see that we are continuing work on the Sabbath (while most religious Jews here do not use the forum on Sabbath even when it is open) they may be inclined to believe we all desecrate the Sabbath. So too we are sending a message to them that Sabbath observance is not important, and they may be fooled into believing that it is OK to post on the Sabbath as long as it is nationalism and pro-Israel...
I have no problem if others are using the forum on the Sabbath. I am certainly concerned that Jews are using the forum on the Sabbath and we are assisting in leading them astray of the way of the Torah.
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Some of the point I was trying to make:
http://www.torah.org/features/holydays/centrallight.html
Shabbat is the source of all blessing. The sages teach us that the days of the week are not arranged one after another, but are like the menorah in the Holy Temple. Shabbat is the center of the week, with three days preceding it and three days following it. So, too, the menorah had one central branch, with three branches on the right and three on the left. When it was lit, the three flames on the right and the three on the left leaned toward the central flame. We wonder why the central light was the one that remained lit. What is the significance of the central light, and why do all the lights on the right and the left have to point toward the central light?
The answer to this question lies in understanding the menorah's connection to Shabbat. To us, it seems that when a person closes his business and rests on Shabbat, he's losing money. People in the retail trade say you can make as much as ten times the profit on Saturday as during the rest of the week. The Torah tells us just the opposite. Any success we experience during the six days of the week is part of the blessing that comes down on Shabbat. The one day of the week that seems to be unproductive as far as earning an income is concerned is actually the one day of the week that brings all blessing and bounty into your life. The flow of blessing spills over into the other days of the week and is acquired through hard work. But the source of that blessing is Shabbat, as it says, "And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it" (Genesis 2:3).
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Muman and Benyamin are correct that Jews should not participate on the forum on Yom Tov or Shabbat. I'm going to make a personal obligation to myself (who isn't shomer anything), not to go on the forum on those days. At least for the reason to not give a negative appearance for others.
As far as becoming shomer something...that's a work in progress. I know it's the right way, but very difficult thing to do like anything else to a secularized Jew.
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בס''ד
The forums were closed on Shabbat and on Yom Tov in the past. We would prefer to keep them closed on Shabbat and on Yom Tov but cannot for purely technical reasons. When we kept them closed, there were problems that developed.
There are web sites that close for Shabbat and Yom Tov but they have a bigger budget than we do.
Most religious Jewish sites do not close for Shabbat and Yom Tov because of the same technical issues. Arutz 7, Mechon Meir, Hidrabrot and Yeshivat Beit El are among the biggest religious Hebrew sites - they do not close on Shabbat and Yom Tov.
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I think people have misinterpreted what I was saying. I don't suggest that non-Jews are obligated to observe the Shabbat. Of course this is not the case, we do not impose our belief on those who are not Jewish. Non Jews have no reason to keep the Sabbath.
But the issue to me, honestly, is that by remaining open we are benefiting from work which is done on the Sabbath. Ask yourself why a Jewish store owner should close his store on the Sabbath.
Actually, he has to close because he is forbidden to do melacha and forbidden to do commerce. Technically though if nonjews ran the shop without him isn't he allowed to keep it open? I know that some kashrut agencies agree that certain kosher restaurants even tho they stay open on shabbat the food can still be kosher at that restaurant when u buy during the week. Are they violating anything by staying open if they themselves don't operate or show up? Worth checking into.
More importantly, I don't understand your point. I don't derive benefit when gentiles post at JTF site during shabbat. What benefit are you suggesting jewish jtfers receive from gentiles posting during shabbath?
Anyway, have to prepare for shabbat. Have a shabbat shalom.
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I dont think so. Ive read that they must profit from the funds garnered from that days' work. There were several ways of resolving this, of which I unfortunately do not remember
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It didn't bother me if the site was shut down or not, becuase sometimes on the Sabbath, I wanted to post something here and the site was closed. I'm glad that the site is open all the time. Except maybe on the holidays when they come up.
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It didn't bother me if the site was shut down or not, becuase sometimes on the Sabbath, I wanted to post something here and the site was closed. I'm glad that the site is open all the time. Except maybe on the holidays when they come up.
Posting on Shabbat is more serious than posting on holidays. It reminds me of how the local JCC (Jewish Community Center) is open on Shabbat and not on holidays (except for the Chabad minyan that uses the space on Shabbat and Yom Tov.). When I go to synagogue there, I see people come to the use the fitness center on Shabbat. It's like it's thought that "Yom Kippur is the holiest day of the year." which is not true. Shabbat is the holiest day of the year. Only when Yom Kippur falls on Shabbat is it the holiest day of the year.
Breaking Yom Tov is not a capital offense in Judaism. Breaking Shabbat is. Also the type of death penalty for breaking Shabbat is more severe than the one for breaking Yom Kippur.
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I have no choice in breaking the fast on Yom Kippur because of health reasons.
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I have no choice in breaking the fast on Yom Kippur because of health reasons.
I'm talking about not doing melacha on Yom Kippur. If you have to eat for health reasons, that doesn't give your permission to cook the food or turn on the lights.
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A related thought comes to mind when reading this thread.
Back when I joined the JTF Forum in early 2008, I wasn't even aware of which Jewish Holidays had the type of Commandments associated with them that would prevent someone from posting on an Internet message board or being on a computer altogether. It was from listening to many ' Ask JTF' programs, reading some threads on the Forum, and then reading more about the laws of Shabbot and the Holidays that I have a much better idea of what's allowed and what isn't. Even to this day, there's plenty I'm still learning about on this. Let alone being able to follow the laws in the ideal manner. It's an ongoing struggle with the laws that I didn't grow up with.
JTF gets new members and people exposed to the organization for the first time, regularly. It should be assumed that many of these people don't know the various Commandments regarding Shabbat and the Holidays, as well as which Holidays they apply too. Then of course there are some long holidays that on some days these Commandments apply and on some days they don't apply.
A new sticky thread that lists the Holidays that the Forum would be closed, if the technology would make it feasible, is something I recommend. Then the people who have extensive knowledge on Shabbat and the various Holidays can add information that can help encourage people to try to become more observant.
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It didn't bother me if the site was shut down or not, becuase sometimes on the Sabbath, I wanted to post something here and the site was closed. I'm glad that the site is open all the time. Except maybe on the holidays when they come up.
It's forbidden for Jews to post here on Shabbat. You should really try to avoid it. And see if you can join some friends or new friends for a shabbat meal instead. It is really a special experience.
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I always wondered why that is. I mean 5,000 years ago, there were no computers, websites, tv's or movies or even a radio. So, I don't see why we can't post something here on the sabbath. 40 years ago on Yom Kippur when the Iseralis were attacked, my father went to services carring a newspaper with news of the story on the front page. A fellow worshipper yelled at my father for bringing in the paper. My father said, "do you know that Israel is being attacked?" If the guy read the newspaper, he would know about Israel instead of being so extreme with the rules. Other worshipers asked my father about the story and my dad told them. Fellowed by the Rabbi who asked my dad about the story and went into the office and turned on the radio and made an announcement about the attack. What if Iran attacks Israel on the sabbath or on a holiday, would you want the fourms shut down to honor the sabbath or you would want the news about it?
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I think Hashem was well aware when He gave Israel the Torah, that thousands of years later- His children would have the internet and tv etc..
The punishment for desecrating Shabbat is severe but there are times when Shabbat can be broken in life or death situations. If there is a war (Heaven forbid) where Israel is under siege, I am sure people would be well aware of it, as sirens would be going off and government announcements. Otherwise, how do we think the people of Mea Shearim have been able to survive all this time in Israel without television and being shomer Shabbat.
As for the forum, I completely accept what Chaim said on the matter. It's just not possible for technical reasons and that makes sense. In a perfect world, the forum would go off for Shabbat in every time zone but if it's just not possible then that's understandable.
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I also understand Chaim's reason on why he stopped shutting down the site on the sabbath. We all should understand his reason.
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It's forbidden for Jews to post here on Shabbat. You should really try to avoid it. And see if you can join some friends or new friends for a shabbat meal instead. It is really a special experience.
Very nicely put
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I always wondered why that is. I mean 5,000 years ago, there were no computers, websites, tv's or movies or even a radio. So, I don't see why we can't post something here on the sabbath. 40 years ago on Yom Kippur when the Iseralis were attacked, my father went to services carring a newspaper with news of the story on the front page. A fellow worshipper yelled at my father for bringing in the paper. My father said, "do you know that Israel is being attacked?" If the guy read the newspaper, he would know about Israel instead of being so extreme with the rules. Other worshipers asked my father about the story and my dad told them. Fellowed by the Rabbi who asked my dad about the story and went into the office and turned on the radio and made an announcement about the attack. What if Iran attacks Israel on the sabbath or on a holiday, would you want the fourms shut down to honor the sabbath or you would want the news about it?
The Israeli Army can break Shabbat for saving lives (Pikuach Nefesh). It's not really breaking Shabbat because saving lives comes first. Posting on a forum from the United States is not Pikuah Nefesh.
If your father got the newspaper delivered to the door, it wouldn't be an issue if he brought it to shul unless there was no Eruv in the area. I'm guessing there was no Eruv then. But buying is forbidden. If your rabbi turned on the radio, he must not be a real rabbi, but rather a Deform rabbi. On the otherhand, in an emergency you can have the radio on with no volume and turn the volume up if necessary as long as no light is activated. I don't know about newer radios. On old radios it's not a problem, at least not on a Biblical level, but perhaps a Rabbinic level.
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There are some websites which completely go off line on Shabbat. That would make the whole JTF.ORG offline, not the forum. So it could be blocked by timezone. If someone isn't blocked by timezone, I guess they could reach the forum. But I don't think there is a way just to block the forum itself by timezone.
There are programs that can be used to do this. Shlomo probably knows the names of them.
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What if Iran attacks Israel on the sabbath or on a holiday, would you want the fourms shut down to honor the sabbath or you would want the news about it?
And you getting the news would affect the outcome in what way? In Israel where this is a serious matter (for bomb shelters and other such matter) besides the public speakerphones (or whatever they are called) the Rabbis say (and this is done) to put on the radio on very little frequency, their is a special channel for it. When something happens the radio turns up to a higher volume and people get the news that they need for life and death emergency information. If not, the radio is on but is not noticeable nor is it a disturbance because it feels like it is completely off.
Problem solved.
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I always wondered why that is. I mean 5,000 years ago, there were no computers, websites, tv's or movies or even a radio.
If they had existed then, the rabbis would have forbade use of them on Shabbat then.
Since they didn't yet exist, then only once they were invented could the rabbis determine whether or not they fall under the laws and categories of forbidden work which is not allowed on Shabbat and Yom Tov and were outlined for us already in Written and Oral Torah. And since they do fall within these prohibited forms of work as set out by Torah, they are forbidden by Jewish law to use on the Shabbat or Yom Tov. It's pretty straightforward.
Any new invention that comes out will be subject to the same question of whether or not the use of the invented item involves forbidden "creative work" (aka melacha) that is therefore forbidden on Shabbat. When the invention can be used without doing such work, then it's not forbidden. For one example, a "Shabbos lamp" if you've ever seen one of those, is not forbidden. Because the light is put on before Shabbos, and then it stays on throughout the duration of shabbat. You only turn the outer shell which then blocks the light physically in the inner chamber of the device, without opening the circuit as you would to shut off a light in a normal case. So, such a thing can be used. You just turn the outer shell to let the light into the room or block it out, all the while the light stays lit. These are all based on the technical activities being employed to use the particular things, and are not simply the banning of things because they are new. New is not wrong. Creative work, as set out by the Torah, is forbidden on Shabbat.
On the example of the newspaper: There's nothing wrong with reading a newspaper. There may be some issue with bringing into the house a newspaper that was delivered on the Shabbat itself (or on Yom Tov) related to muktzeh ( a different prohibition). But supposing the newspaper was from the previous day, I don't understand the urgency to read about something happening 100's of miles away. If you have no ability to save lives involved from reading that story, then no one has to shoot themselves in the foot over the fact that they didn't read the story until after Shabbat (or in this case Yom Kippur) ended. Certainly there is no permission to do melacha (forbidden work) in response to what is happening with let's say Iran and Israel, unless you can somehow do something that will save Jewish lives. Announcing on a microphone doesn't save anything. Was your father's rabbi a reform or conservative "rabbi" ? They do not follow Jewish law.