JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lubab on July 26, 2007, 10:52:24 AM
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Our newest member is called "Athiest". Is he one of these wack jobs who believes that nothing can create something-and then tries to pass that off as being "enlightened"?
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I was one for 25 years of my life until I woke up. You can't talk them out of it.........you have to wait until they make the realisation.
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Strange name
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If he's so conviced and proud of his atheism that it's his screename-I guess we'll all wait as we will explain to us how nothing created something.
I'll wait...
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My Father always says there are no true Atheist.
He always tells me - No matter what people say in life's calm moments...
when you're in a foxhole and bombs are coming your way - everyone prays to God for help. ;)
That is what he experienced.
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Lubab, I don't think it is a wise move to belittle him or his name. We should all work together to fight muslims and other jew hating pieces of drek. Being an atheist doesn't make him dangerous to jews and he can very well be a good friend of the jewish people. Chaim himself said on this past week's ask jtf that he doesn't mind atheists being on the forum. Lubab, if you take a look on youtube, some of the biggest bashers of Islam are self proclaimed atheists. It's not like he came on here with a name like Abdul or some Islamic stinky name.
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I agree, if he does not try to proselytize, we should let him be.
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My Father always says there are no true Atheist
He always tells me - No matter what people say in life's calm moments...
when you're in a foxhole and bombs are coming your way - everyone prays to G-d for help. ;)
That is what he experienced.
In a crashing airplain there are no Atheists .
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Of corurse I don't agree with atheism and of course I am not one. I am jewish and completely believe in it. All I am saying is that atheists are not a danger to jews and should not be antagonized on this forum. Listen to Chaim discussing this on this past weeks Ask Jtf.
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He's definitely welcome. And I agree we should all work together.
But without G-d, then what are we really fighting for? Do we care about defeating Islam just for the fun of it or because G-d says we should? Now if people who don't believe in G-d want to help? I guess, why not?
Maybe I should ease up, but I just think that being an atheist is plain nuts and it get's me going when I see people that are proud of having that title. He's basically saying to all of us-G-d doesn't exist and that's what I'm all about. And I don't' take that sitting down.
In the media atheists are glorified. I just thought this should be one place where it's not glorified. One place where people are normal. One place where people don't think a world comes out of nothing.
I've heard Chaim say over and over again-atheism is "insanity" and I think he's right.
"Atheist", if you're reading this: you're very welcome here. I just hope as part of your stay here you might rethink your atheist views.
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Lubab, I think the fact that Atheist has at least taken enough of an interest in this forum to post here should be viewed as a positive sign. If he/she was so against religion, then why even post here at all? Maybe on some level, he or she agrees with where we stand on Judaism and the challenges we face.
I would also like to remind you of something else Chaim once said on one of the past "Ask JTF" shows. He mentioned that it was an atheist man who gave the most amount of money to JDL/Rabbi Kahane. With that money, Rabbi Kahane was able to run for the Knesset. He wouldn't have been to do so without that money. I remember Chaim saying that he tried and tried to convince this man but that he had no success. But I disagree. I think on some level that man liked and agreed with what he saw in the JDL.
Just something to think about.
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You know, I can understand being an agnostic.
Even an agnostic that leans towards atheism.
I mean, you're just not sure. You don't have faith. You're not convinced.
Understandable.
But atheist ?
You're absolutely sure G-d doesn't exist ?
I guess an atheist would counter with 'I'm just as sure G-d doesn't exist as the believers are that He does.'
I just find it hard to believe that anyone would want to categorically state that G-d doesn't exist.
Oh well, to each his own.
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In all fairness, I'd still choose a pro-Israel atheist or volcano worshiper over an anti-semitic monotheist.
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-for any Jew who even thinks their a slight legitimacy that their is no ...G-d (G-d forbid) watch this video. Also for everyone else to strenthen your Knowledge of G-d.
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_mizrachi.html click on
Divine Information (English Subtitles) Play Download Play Download
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Christopher Hitchens, the atheist who bashed Jerry Falwell after his passing, declared that Falwell would be going to hell. But since Hitchens is an atheist, isn't a heaven or hell against his beliefs? Didn't he contradicted himself?
Atheists like to contradict themselves. Then, when they're called out on it, the defame their opponents, rather than debate.
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You know, I can understand being an agnostic.
Even an agnostic that leans towards atheism.
I mean, you're just not sure. You don't have faith. You're not convinced.
Understandable.
But atheist ?
You're absolutely sure G-d doesn't exist ?
I guess an atheist would counter with 'I'm just as sure G-d doesn't exist as the believers are that He does.'
I just find it hard to believe that anyone would want to categorically state that G-d doesn't exist.
Oh well, to each his own.
On AskJTF about a month ago Chaim said that being an agnostic is also totally illogical. If you're "not sure" if something can be created by nothing-then you're also nuts (or you just never really thought about it).
Sorry guys. If we don't tell the truth-who will? It's nuts.
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Lubab, I agree with you 100% that being an atheist makes no sense and is insane. But, they are no threat to the jews and they seem to be the only ones with the courage to make anti Islamic videos on youtube besides Chaim.
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Lubab, I agree with you 100% that being an atheist makes no sense and is insane. But, they are no threat to the jews and they seem to be the only ones with the courage to make anti Islamic videos on youtube besides Chaim.
I agree. It's silly to worship volcanoes, too but I'd take a pro-Israel savage (or atheist) over a monotheistic anti-semite any day.
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Lubab, I agree with you 100% that being an atheist makes no sense and is insane. But, they are no threat to the jews and they seem to be the only ones with the courage to make anti Islamic videos on youtube besides Chaim.
Some of the israeli athaists are a super judaism haters, they oppening sites as Chofesh (the site i asked chaim about) and daat emet, those sites are anti jewish and haredi jews in an extream propaganda .
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Just about all the moral corruption in America today can be traced back to lack of belief in G-d and the atheists. I do think they are a danger to any descent country.
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True....but some gentile atheists are very pro-Israel. Meir Kahane(ZT"L) received donations from such people.
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Hey, as long as they know where we stand-if they want to give money-why stops them?
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I think that just as there are ethical monotheists and evil monotheists (muslims and Gibsons for eg) there are both ethical athiests and evil atheists (democrats and ACLU). For JTF's purposes, an ethical atheist is OK. Would you rather have a genuine pro-Israel atheist/agnostic or a monotheist who comes to missionise?
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Problem is that Nazis thought themselves "ethical atheists". Because when the ethics are man-made you never know how it will wind up. If they support Israel I agree with you-but most hate Judaism as much as they hate Islam and Chrisitanity.
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Problem is that Nazis thought themselves "ethical atheists". Because when the ethics are man-made you never know how it will wind up. If they support Israel I agree with you-but most hate Judaism as much as they hate Islam and Chrisitanity.
That's a good point, Lubab. And if one has no faith or moral absolute, but a man-made moral system, what is to stop their beliefs changing with the wind?
I see your point more clearly now.
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Thank Newman,
I finally got to hear the last part of AskJTF about having atheists on the forum. Chaim said they were welcome, but he also said that when one came on on the Hebrew forum he was given a very "negative" response from the posters...Chaim said with approval of the Hebrew forum members' behavior.
FYI: after hearing that it seems pretty likely to me that the person who signed up named "Atheist" is what I call a "tester". After hearing Chaim talk about how atheists are allowed on he wanted to "test" that rule.
This is sort of the way-after the whole Allen-T thing broke out and Chaim said "no missionaries"-someone immediately opened an account with the screen-name "Messianic Guy"-it was pretty obvious he wanted to see how we'd react.
In short, this "Atheist" is probably Hidden Author under another screen name...testing out the rules.
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Lubab,
I read about a secular Jew who visited the Kotel and was given 'A prayer for an atheist' by a Rabbi there. It was the most brilliant thing I'd ever read. A prayer to G_d from an atheist's perspective yet it was not blasphemous. Do you know of it and could you post it?
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Lubab,
I read about a secular Jew who visited the Kotel and was given 'A prayer for an atheist' by a Rabbi there. It was the most brilliant thing I'd ever read. A prayer to G_d from an atheist's perspective yet it was not blasphemous. Do you know of it and could you post it?
Sound interesting. Never heard of it.
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Lubab,
I read about a secular Jew who visited the Kotel and was given 'A prayer for an atheist' by a Rabbi there. It was the most brilliant thing I'd ever read. A prayer to G_d from an atheist's perspective yet it was not blasphemous. Do you know of it and could you post it?
Sound interesting. Never heard of it.
FOUND IT!
THE PRAYER OF AN ATHEIST
Here is a true story about a young man who got his prayers answered:
Many people who visit Jerusalem are tourists who come to get a sense of Jewish culture and history. One day, a young tourist named Jeff was brought in to meet me at Aish HaTorah.
"What are you doing?" I asked him.
"I'm working for my MBA at Harvard University. And I'm an atheist."
"Fantastic! A real atheist! Whoever was able to convince an atheist like you to speak to a rabbi like me deserves a medal."
"Nah," Jeff says, "he doesn't deserve anything. I'll tell you how I came..."
Jeff had been in Norway, visiting his Norwegian fiance. And he decided it was now or never: either he is going to come to Israel or he'll never make it.
So he headed for Jerusalem and the Western Wall. He figured he would stop by the Wall to see some old stones. Yet upon his arrival he was amazed. He felt something heavy. He was moved.
Jeff stood before the Wall, and made up an atheist's prayer. He looked at the stones and said:
"G-d, I don't believe in You. As far as I know, You don't exist. But I do feel something. So if I'm making a mistake, I want You to know, G-d, I have no quarrel against You. It's just that I don't know that You exist. But G-d, just in case You're really there and I'm making a mistake, get me an introduction."
Jeff finished his prayer, and one of the Aish HaTorah students who happened to be at the Wall, saw Jeff and thought, "Perhaps he'd be interested in learning some Torah."He tapped Jeff on the shoulder, startling him so much that he jumped three feet in the air. Jeff whirled around and shouted,
"What in the blankety-blank-dash-bang do you want?!"
"I'm sorry. I just want to know if you'd like to learn about G-d."
That question hit Jeff like a two-by-four right between the eyes. He had just finished asking G-d for an introduction, and immediately someone was offering to introduce him to G-d.
Jeff learned at Aish HaTorah for the next six weeks. He was a very serious student, and went back to the States with a commitment to continue learning. A year later, Jeff came back to Israel and told me the end of his story.
Full story:
http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/judaism/judaism_article.php?article_id=4467&page=1
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I guess there are different types of Atheists, just like any group. There are Catholics like me who are totally pro-Jewish, and pro-Israel, precisely because of what The Catholic Bible says. Then you have people like Mel Gibson and his Dad, who are nuts.
Similarly, Atheists can have different views. Most of the ones I've met here in England, seem to be very anti-Israel. They just believe everthing the Arabs tell them. Atheist and agnostic friends of mine seem to think terrorism was caused by the creation of Israel. When I tried to set them straight, they told me I was brainwashed by The Bible. I've gradually won most of them round, just by explaining secular history, how Israel was under Turkish rule before the British, not Arab. With more Muslim violence around the world, they now see that Islam is the problem.
Atheists in the media seem to spend most of their time attacking Christianity and Israel. Christopher Hitchens, for instance, seems to be very anti-Israel.