JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: muman613 on November 06, 2013, 11:56:35 PM
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Shalom JTF Members,
This week has gone by so quickly. Today I took the day off for a dentist visit and feel a lot better now. It has been a busy week and yet I strive to start studying the weekly portion by Wednesday (although it is the custom to learn an aliyah each day during the week).
This week's portion contains many memorable events including the dream of Jacob, of the angels descending and ascending on a ladder into the heavens. The story of the duplicity and trickery employed by the wicked Laban, tricking Jacob into marrying Leah when he worked for seven years to marry Rachel. He was then required to work another seven years to marry his true love, Rachel. This entire episode teaches us about our relationship with the women in our lives, our wives.
The story of the development of the 12 tribes of Jacob, who will be renamed Israel by the angel which he wrestled with. The story of the birth of Joseph is important in the furthering of Jewish history.
Chabad's Parsha in a Nutshell :
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/3191/jewish/Vayeitzei-in-a-Nutshell.htm
Jacob leaves his hometown of Beersheba and journeys to Charan. On the way, he encounters “the place” and sleeps there, dreaming of a ladder connecting heaven and earth, with angels climbing and descending on it; G‑d appears and promises that the land upon which he lies will be given to his descendants. In the morning, Jacob raises the stone on which he laid his head as an altar and monument, pledging that it will be made the house of G‑d.
In Haran, Jacob stays with and works for his uncle Laban, tending Laban’s sheep. Laban agrees to give him his younger daughter, Rachel—whom Jacob loves—in marriage, in return for seven years’ labor. But on the wedding night, Laban gives him his elder daughter, Leah, instead—a deception Jacob discovers only in the morning. Jacob marries Rachel, too, a week later, after agreeing to work another seven years for Laban.
Leah gives birth to six sons—Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar and Zebulun—and a daughter, Dinah, while Rachel remains barren. Rachel gives Jacob her handmaid, Bilhah, as a wife to bear children in her stead, and two more sons, Dan and Naphtali, are born. Leah does the same with her handmaid, Zilpah, who gives birth to Gad and Asher. Finally, Rachel’s prayers are answered and she gives birth to Joseph.
Jacob has now been in Charan for fourteen years, and wishes to return home. But Laban persuades him to remain, now offering him sheep in return for his labor. Jacob prospers, despite Laban’s repeated attempts to swindle him. After six years, Jacob leaves Charan in stealth, fearing that Laban would prevent him from leaving with the family and property for which he labored. Laban pursues Jacob, but is warned by G‑d in a dream not to harm him. Laban and Jacob make a pact on Mount Gal-Ed, attested to by a pile of stones, and Jacob proceeds to the Holy Land, where he is met by angels.
Let us start with a new video posted by Rabbi Finkelstein of Congregation Anshe Sefard Beth El Emet...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyKfPqdJi24
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Now let us hear Rabbi Richman's talk on this portion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6elIg5z0OHY
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I love to hear what Rabbi Machlis in Jerusalem says on the Torah portion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K95REaRtdeE
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Our honorable leader of JTF, Chaim Ben Pesach's incredible dvar Torah on Vayetzei...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O7wxOCipxo
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Rabbi Shlomo Katz has been giving a lecture on the weekly portion for WebYeshiva... Here is his latest posting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhnZvxFj4MU
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Rabbi Yaakov Nagen on the portion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpzY5hDoYv4
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Rabbi Odze gives some insights into the portion of Vayetzei...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF2cW-zv38k
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Rabbi Isaacson from Naaleh.org gives a talk about our portion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hpWAkCSaE0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scn9-b7-2m0
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Rabbi Shafier gives a short 4min shmuz on a topic in the parsha.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F03Az8F7NMk
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Shalom & Shavuah Tov,
Ari Lesser composed this 'rap' with the intention of the prayer of Jacob, our forefather. When Hashem blessed Jacob he made a vow to Hashem...
Chapter 28
18. And Jacob arose early in the morning, and he took the stone that he had placed at his head, and he set it up as a monument, and he poured oil on top of it.
19. And he named the place Beth El, but Luz was orignally the name of the city.
20. And Jacob uttered a vow, saying, "If God will be with me, and He will guard me on this way, upon which I am going, and He will give me bread to eat and a garment to wear;
21. And if I return in peace to my father's house, and the Lord will be my God;
22. Then this stone, which I have placed as a monument, shall be a house of God, and everything that You give me, I will surely tithe to You.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEPQuAHnkGY
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This animated parsha is pretty basic (although I disagree with calling the episode of the deceit of Jacob 'Stealing')...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NZjrdQoAAk
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http://www.divineinformation.com/parashat-va-yetze-2/
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http://www.divineinformation.com/parashat-va-yetze-2/
Woow, he goes after Breslev, against amulats and such non-sense very well. Also about Iran-U.S. etc.
I like this one except about the "gilgulim" parts, its not part of the Torah or Gemarah (Talmudh).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeO-GwBKSYM
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So you just pick and choose what you listen to when a Rabbi is talking. You like this, but you don't like that... I think that is not the way to learn Torah... How can you listen to anything a rabbi says if he talks about gilgulim?
I also suppose Tag does not put a mezzuzah on his door (obviously I know you do this but I am being facetious) , despite it being a commandment of the Torah, which acts as an 'amulet' according to the Torah and the Talmud. The Mezzuzah, it is promised, will lengthen the days of the person who affixes one to his or her door.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/316875/jewish/From-the-Words-of-the-Lubavitcher-Rebbe.htm
A. Immediately following the command to affix a mezuzah, “...And thou shalt inscribe them [these words] on the mezuzoth (the doorposts) of thy house, and upon thy gates,” 1 the Torah informs us of the reward for the mitzvah: “…that your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children.” 2 The Code of Jewish Law 3 states, “Whoever is careful in it [mezuzah], his days and the days of his children will be lengthened.”4
That Torah explicitly states the reward for mezuzah is something it shares with various other mitzvoth, such as honoring one’s parents5 and others6. Peculiar to this particular mitzvah, however, the Sages7 say that through man’s affixing a mezuzah scroll on the entrance to his house, the Almighty guards the house (“...a human king dwells within and his servants guard him from outside, while you sleep upon your beds and the Holy One, Blessed be He, guards you from outside”8). This protection is not a form of reward, but rather, as the commentator Bayit Chadash (BaCh)9 explains, a “benefit and profit derived from the actual mitzvah itself ... in addition to its reward.” The Tur states that this protection is “greater than” the reward “...that your days may be multiplied, etc.”10 The Bach suggests that this results from its being a benefit “of the actual mitzvah itself.” This protection, further, is not an auxiliary “profit” of the mitzvah but rather a central, essential element. In the words of Tosafoth: “L’shimor avid (its purpose is protection).”11
I am not going to go into the argument again about the support for the belief in gilgulim. I am sure it is falling on deaf ears..
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Tractate Avodah Zarah 11
Onkelos, the brilliant nephew of the Roman Emperor Titus, converted to Judaism and became a disciple of the Sages. Hearing this, Titus sent a brigade of soldiers to bring him back to Rome. But when Onkelos engaged the soldiers in discussion and showed them the beauty of Torah, they converted to Judaism.
Titus then sent another brigade, instructing them not to speak to Onkelos. But after listening without even speaking, they too converted to Judaism. Finally Titus sent a third brigade and instructed them not even to listen to Onkelos. When they were leading him away, Onkelos placed his hand on the mezuza and inquisitively inquired, “What is that?”
“You tell us,” the soldiers said. He replied, “Normally, a human king sits inside and his servants stand outside and guard him. But, for the Holy One Blessed be He, His servants are inside and He guards them from outside.” They too converted. Titus sent no more soldiers.
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I have hear Rabbi Mizrachi speak against Rabbis who give Segulahs, etc.... I can understand this because it leads to a lot of problems. I don't believe in asking Rabbis for segulahs... So I agree with him for the most part. But there have been Rabbis who have given segulahs which have worked... It doesn't mean segulahs are not real.
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Tag,
Are you aware (I suspect you are) that Rabbi Mizrachi refers to the Zohar as 'The Holy Zohar'? That he believes it is a part of the Jewish oral tradition? I would think you couldn't listen to him because of this.... Yet you still do... Very interesting..
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So you just pick and choose what you listen to when a Rabbi is talking. You like this, but you don't like that... I think that is not the way to learn Torah... How can you listen to anything a rabbi says if he talks about gilgulim?
I also suppose Tag does not put a mezzuzah on his door, despite it being a commandment of the Torah, which acts as an 'amulet' according to the Torah and the Talmud. The Mezzuzah, it is promised, will lengthen the days of the person who affixes one to his or her door.
-Excuse? The question is on you- soo you follow a Rabbi (or any person) no matter what they say and if they do or say something factually wrong you are supposed to blindly follow him?
Also you said you listen to him, listen to that lecture as well he smashed Breslov very nicely and amulets as well. Something you seem to promote both of.
- Idiotic yet again! Making the sin of false accusations. I do have Mezuzot and NOT for an "amulet". I have it because it is a Misswah from the Torah to have it. It's "protection" is the reminder it gives to me and others hat see it and are reminded of Hashem and the Torah.
•Mezuzah: Protective Amulet or Religious Symbol? (PDF)
http://www.mesora.org/mezuza-gordon.pdf
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Tag,
Are you aware (I suspect you are) that Rabbi Mizrachi refers to the Zohar as 'The Holy Zohar'? That he believes it is a part of the Jewish oral tradition? I would think you couldn't listen to him because of this.... Yet you still do... Very interesting..
1) Your premise is completely wrong, who says to whom I can or cannot listen to? I can listen to who'm I like as I do 2) You assume I listen to him because I commented on 1 video 3) You show that you listen(ed) to him because you comment that he calls the Zohar what not, 4) Since you listen to him by your own admission you have to then accept what he said (not because it is truthful but because you listened to him) what he said AGAINST both amulets and against Breslov.
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Tag, do you believe in the Lamed-Vav?
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Tag, do you believe in the Lamed-Vav?
you mean in the 36 Tzaddikim? Meaning their are 36 Tzaddikim that in who's merit the world stands. Is that what you mean?
Perhaps, not necessarily though. Could be because of less. For example Rabbi Shimon said at his time that the world exists all due to him and his son. Soo it was 2 and not 36. Either way I didn't think about this concept, where it comes from or anything. Its not really relevant.
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you mean in the 36 Tzaddikim? Meaning their are 36 Tzaddikim that in who's merit the world stands. Is that what you mean?
Perhaps, not necessarily though. Could be because of less. For example Rabbi Shimon said at his time that the world exists all due to him and his son. Soo it was 2 and not 36. Either way I didn't think about this concept, where it comes from or anything. Its not really relevant.
I was just curious. It just seems like you're against mysticism, and I don't understand why...
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Tag,
I listen to Rabbis and try to reconcile what they say without saying one is right and the other is wrong.
In many cases there can be two ways to look at an issue. Things are not always black and white, and the Talmud is rife full of disagreements where it is agreed that both opinions are correct.
I do not believe everything every Rabbi says as being 100% truth... But I do believe that when you listen to enough Rabbis you can learn what the general consensus is. I believe that there is a lot of truth in 99% of what the Rabbis I post say.
It seems to me that you like Rabbis who say 'I am right and everyone else is wrong' and I have a lot of difficulty accepting any Rabbi who denigrates other Jewish sects. I detect that you find it easy to despise other Jews, although I may be wrong.
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I have heard many Rabbis opinion on Breslev and most accept it and cherish the teachings of Rabbi Nachman (Zt'l)...
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Nobody suggests that a mezzuzah has special powers of its own. It is not magic, and I don't know any Jew who has one who believes in magic. But it is an example of how a physical object can bring us protection from evil. To say that amulets are not discussed in the Talmud is false, they are most certainly discussed...
See this discussion from the Yeshiva Ohr.edu...
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/214/Q3/
Dear Rabbi,
I am intrigued by the age-old use of kemiot (amulets), particularly ones with the human hand. Apparently the Persian Jews especially used to employ quite a variety of kemiot for protection in marriage, childbirth etc. What is the halachic and rabbinical positions on these?
Dear Helen Block,
Amulets or kemiot are mentioned in the Talmud in many places and are not forbidden as superstitious. The amulets mentioned in the Talmud were parchments with prayers in them written by pious scholars, and they are like continuous prayers. An amulet which is just a symbol or hand, while not forbidden, does not have the same impact. Nevertheless they can serve to remind a person of Divine Protection and Providence (the 'Hand of G-d') and to focus on G-d. As Maimonides states in the Guide for the Perplexed, "The degree of Divine Providence is directly proportional to the degree of attachment of the person to the Divine."
It's said that the towering sage Rabbi Akiva Eiger once wrote a very effective amulet. Curious about what mystical letter permutations or Kabbalistic incantations lay within, someone opened the scroll. What did he find? A single paragraph of Tosefos's logical, straightforward commentary to the Talmud! The amulet was "powered" simply by the merit of Rabbi Eiger's sincere Torah study.
See also : http://www.oztorah.com/2007/07/amulets-the-evil-eye-ask-the-rabbi/
Rambam on moving an amulet on Shabbat : http://limudtorah.jewishweb.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=221&Itemid=30
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http://dafyomi.co.il/shabbos/insites/sh-dt-061.htm
2) SUMMARY: "MUMCHEH KAMEI'A" AND "MUMCHEH GAVRA"
The Gemara discusses what makes a Kamei'a (an amulet for healing) into a Kamei'a Mumcheh (one that has been proven to be effective), which one may wear in Reshus ha'Rabim on Shabbos regardless of the level of expertise of the doctor who wrote it. The Gemara also discusses what makes a doctor into a Rofeh Mumcheh (who has been proven to be an expert healer with his amulets), such that any amulet written by him may be worn in Reshus ha'Rabim on Shabbos. In order to better understand the Gemara, it is important to review several rules:
(a) There are three factors involved with giving a doctor or a Kamei'a the status of a Mumcheh:
1. the Kamei'a that was used
2. the doctor who wrote it
3. the person who was healed by it.
The Rishonim also mention a fourth factor -- which sickness the Kamei'a was intended to cure. However, this is not really an additional factor, but it is included in the first (the Kamei'a that was used). The practice was to write a different type of Kamei'a for each type of sickness, and to write the same type of Kamei'a for the same sickness. Therefore, for which sickness the Kamei'a was written is really the same as which Kamei'a was written (#1 above).
(b) The success of the cure may depend on the Mazal of the doctor, the Mazal of the sick person, or both. However, when a Kamei'a is proven effective, its success is not attributed to its Mazal but rather to the wisdom that went into writing it. The effectiveness of the doctor, on the other hand, can depend on his Mazal (RASHI 61b, DH Mazlei, and RAN there, who writes this more clearly). Thus, a doctor who is a "Mumcheh" may have propitious Mazal, while the "Mumcheh" status of the Kamei'a is determined solely by the skill and expertise involved in writing it.
(c) A Kamei'a becomes Mumcheh by successfully curing an illness three times, even if it was written by one doctor, or if it healed the same patient three times. We do not attribute the success of a Kamei'a that worked three times to the patient's Mazal or to the doctor's Mazal. Thus, if a doctor wrote one Kamei'a three times (and it was successful every time), the doctor does not become Mumcheh. The reason for this is either because the success of the Kamei'a depends on wisdom, and not on Mazal (Rashi DH Mazlei, and RAN), or because the Kamei'a is the main factor in improving the health of the sick person, since without the Kamei'a the doctor has no chance of curing the illness (RITVA). (Rashi at the beginning of the Sugya seems to contradict this when he writes that the doctor does become Mumcheh if he wrote the successful Kamei'a three times; see Insights to Shabbos 61:4.)
3) "MUMCHEH KAMEI'A"
OPINIONS: What is a Kamei'a Mumcheh? What makes it Mumcheh?
(a) RASHI says that the Mumcheh Kamei'a refers to the charm (that is, the specific script) that is written inside the amulet. Once that charm becomes Muchzak (it has worked three times consecutively), it may be written by any doctor to cure that illness, and it may be worn outside on Shabbos. According to Rashi, in order for a doctor to become Mumcheh, he must write three different successful charms. Once he has written three different successful charms, he may now write any charm, and one may wear it outside on Shabbos.
(b) TOSFOS and ROSH (6:8) disagree and say that just because a doctor knows how to write three charms is no proof that every charm he writes from then on will be successful. They therefore say that what Rashi describes as making the Kamei'a Mumcheh is actually what makes the doctor Mumcheh. A doctor who is Mumcheh, then, is one who has written one charm successfully three times. Mumcheh Kamei'a, according to Tosfos and Rosh, means that the very same amulet (that is, the actual piece of parchment itself) worked three times. Such an amulet may be worn by anyone on Shabbos. According to Tosfos, if the same text of that amulet is re-written and another amulet is made, even though it contains the same text as the successful amulet, it is considered an entirely new and different amulet.
Shulchan Aruch on Amulets: http://www.torah.org/advanced/shulchan-aruch/classes/chapter12.html
It is forbidden to consult astrologers or rely on omens, but it is permissible to prefer or avoid particular days of the week or month for certain activities or to make a decision based on the outcome of an event (179:1-4). It is forbidden to use incantations to control animals or for medicinal purposes except to avoid danger (179:5-11), but it is permissible to use amulets for protection against injury or sickness (179:12). It is permissible to consult the spirits of the dead (179:13-14) but dealings with demons should generally be avoided (179:16,19). It is forbidden to practice deceptive magic or to learn from a magician (179:15,19). On the use of Divine names for supernatural purposes see 246:21.
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Obviously Rav Schach stood against amulets and segulahs, but this is expected:
http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5770/shoftim.html
Rav Schach wrote a letter in which he was very critical of the practice he observed in many to seek out the future through palm reading or "kesubah reading" or the like. All such people who advertised such services, he insisted, were charlatans and frauds who were trying to make a quick and dishonest dollar. He forbade relying on the amulets and advice of people who obviously do not have the knowledge that they are allegedly sharing with people. Despite the fact that some practitioners had long white beards and appeared religious, Rav Schach emphasized that a person may not consult with or rely on the advice of such people, citing the pasuk in this week's parsha "You shall be Tamim with the L-rd your G-d" and referencing the Ramban's comments on the pasuk. Rav Schach concluded his letter: "We must only rely on Hashem, everything else is hevel [vanity].
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On a personal note I will explain how my understanding of these things are:
1) I believe that there is a spiritual world which parallels our physical world.
2) I believe that there are forces which Hashem places in this world which have effects on the world (angels and demons) for instance the Yetzer Hara, the Satan, the angel of death, etc.
3) I believe that there are holy people who have achieved a higher spiritual level, these are the tzadikim, who have learned a lot of Torah and through their life experience can share some of the merit in the next world with their students.
4) I believe that a Jew who keeps the commandments gains special merit, and although the reward is in the next world, their life in this world is blessed.
The commands of Mezuzah, Tefillin, Tzit-Tzits are all physical actions involving ritual objects (the parchment in the mezuzah, the tefillin, and the strings of the tzit-tzits). Our belief in fulfilling them bring the blessings promised by Hashem.
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Tag,
I listen to Rabbis and try to reconcile what they say without saying one is right and the other is wrong.
In many cases there can be two ways to look at an issue. Things are not always black and white, and the Talmud is rife full of disagreements where it is agreed that both opinions are correct.
I do not believe everything every Rabbi says as being 100% truth... But I do believe that when you listen to enough Rabbis you can learn what the general consensus is. I believe that there is a lot of truth in 99% of what the Rabbis I post say.
??? ??? ??? ???
Riiiiiight. Yet when you started it, you had completely different criteria for me. Dude can you read? seriously?
You also make one premise and then afterwards claim the opposite of it. This isn't the first time and I am not the first person you have done this to.
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??? ??? ??? ???
Riiiiiight. Yet when you started it, you had completely different criteria for me. Dude can you read? seriously?
Tag,
You are making this personal when it really doesnt have to be. I did not attack you (and if it appears that I did I apologize). I try to find a way to understand why you enjoy creating division among Jews. I am trying to get you to be a little more accepting of Jews who don't do things the way you do.
I have listened to the Rabbis you post and have pointed out the very same thing I am saying now, this is not new.
Do you wish to continue in personal attacks? I don't... I am trying to address the issues which you bring up. It is no problem to me that Rabbi Mizrahi doesn't approve of Breslev, that is his perogative. But he does believe in the same Zohar that Breslev believes, and the same Talmud, and the same Tanach...
What is it you think I didn't read? Do you want to quiz me?
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Rabbi Mizrachi gives a talk on Rabbi Nachman of Breslev on his Yartzeit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6RKy_MKk6s
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Old lecture (that you just posted, its from 2011 as the title says, I didn't listen to it, but I do remember someone cutting and posting it when some time ago Rabbi Bar-Hayim's video was copied by Rabbi Mizrachi and promoted, some people who didn't like it and didn't like what Rabbi Mizrachi was saying and responding on some things (some actions by/from) Breslov anyway, then cut that video form some time ago and posted it as "rebuttle". As if it really stands either way because he was speaking of some actions made by them. Anyway anything someone says their later is more in line to what they hold by now then their former. No?
Anyway doesn't matter, I was just addressing your criteria to listening to someone or not and I said why you don't apply it to yourself and if you do, then now why don't you accept that he went against them and accept it 100% without any questions as you suggested I do about the gilgulim.
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Anyway nice trance Breslov has, you know the songs from it.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhMfnfWoskk
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??? ??? ??? ???
Riiiiiight. Yet when you started it, you had completely different criteria for me. Dude can you read? seriously?
You also make one premise and then afterwards claim the opposite of it. This isn't the first time and I am not the first person you have done this to.
To me it seems you guy are arguing over an agreement... And that is the thing that matters the least in this conversation. Come on guys, no low blows...
You're both saying you can listen to someone, and agree and disagree...
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Tag,
The main issue Rabbis have concerning Breslev are A) Messichism (believing Rabbi Nachman was Moshiach) B) The pilgrimage to his Kever (grave) on Rosh Hashanah. If I understand correctly the only issue Rabbis have is whether a Jew is permitted to leave Eretz Yisrael in order to go to Uman to celebrate with the Breslevers... I am not sure of what other issues there may be with Breslev. If you would like to discuss them, let us do so...
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Tag,
The main issue Rabbis have concerning Breslev are A) Messichism (believing Rabbi Nachman was Moshiach) B) The pilgrimage to his Kever (grave) on Rosh Hashanah. If I understand correctly the only issue Rabbis have is whether a Jew is permitted to leave Eretz Yisrael in order to go to Uman to celebrate with the Breslevers... I am not sure of what other issues there may be with Breslev. If you would like to discuss them, let us do so...
Again not the point of me bringing it up. I was just addressing..., w/e forget it.
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You're both saying you can listen to someone, and agree and disagree...
I was saying that at first, I was attacked and said not to believe this way, then I pointed out that he also listened to him and at the same time didn't and doesn't accept some of the things said by him on Breslov and other issues. And THEN he changed to saying as well that we can " listen to someone, and agree and disagree..."
As I was trying to say from the very beginning.
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I was saying that at first, I was attacked and said not to believe this way, then I pointed out that he also listened to him and at the same time didn't and doesn't accept some of the things said by him on Breslov and other issues. And THEN he changed to saying as well that we can " listen to someone, and agree and disagree..."
As I was trying to say from the very beginning.
I apologize... I am all for listening to differing opinions and evaluating the ideas relative to your own personal understanding.
I will try harder to avoid saying things which can be taken personally.
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I was saying that at first, I was attacked and said not to believe this way, then I pointed out that he also listened to him and at the same time didn't and doesn't accept some of the things said by him on Breslov and other issues. And THEN he changed to saying as well that we can " listen to someone, and agree and disagree..."
As I was trying to say from the very beginning.
Tag, you insulted Breslov, right off the bat. Soo, I kinda understand why Muman became defensive...
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Tag, you insulted Breslov, right off the bat. Soo, I kinda understand why Muman became defensive...
Muman- accepted.
Ephraim- No I didn't. I said what the Rabbi said, that is all and used it as an example of where and when not everything is or will be accepted by all including Muman on that issue.
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I studied this, and I can't find any Torah sources to back up amulets. If your emunah is in an amulet and not Hashem, it is deep idolatry. If you have emunah that Hashem will work through the amulet, then you have no faith in Hashem when you take it off, and it is idolatry like xtianity.
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I studied this, and I can't find any Torah sources to back up amulets. If your emunah is in an amulet and not Hashem, it is deep idolatry. If you have emunah that Hashem will work through the amulet, then you have no faith in Hashem when you take it off, and it is idolatry like xtianity.
I never said that one should trust in amulets. I said that the Talmud most certainly discusses the amulet and whether it is permissible to move them on Shabbat.
Obviously everything in the Jewish world-view revolves around Hashems Hashgacha Pratis (Divine providence) and his involvement with the world. But the way he works in this world is through actions which we do.
I bring the Mezuzah which is a physical box containing the portions also contained in the Tefillin. Through our observing this commandment, Hashem promises us the merit of being protected from evil. So in this way it is similar to an amulet. But as you point out it is not any power of the amulet which is involved, but rather the fact that we did as Hashem commanded.
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Webshas points of the following portions of the Talmud which discuss amulets:
http://www.webshas.org/science/misc/super/amulets.htm
Amulets and Medicinal Chants
Amulets
Importance of distinguishing the targeted species in the amulet: Pesachim 111b
Specification of the location of the creature: Pesachim 111b
Format of writing an amulet [Galturei]: R. Shabbat 103b "Keivan"
Saving them from a fire on Shabbat: Shabbat 115b
The Surface on which amulets are written: Shabbat 78b, Gittin 22a
Medicinal Chants
For "Kafa" [Rashi: Poison, Rashbam: Worms] acquired from vegetables: Pesachim 116a
For sudden, inexplicable terror: Megillah 3a
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I studied this, and I can't find any Torah sources to back up amulets. If your emunah is in an amulet and not Hashem, it is deep idolatry. If you have emunah that Hashem will work through the amulet, then you have no faith in Hashem when you take it off, and it is idolatry like xtianity.
So, would the Bronze snake in the desert be an idol?
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The core Jewish belief is in the Unity and Uniqueness of Hashem, there is no other power in all of the universe besides him, and he is the source of all energy used by every creation. No amulet or ritual object has any power on it's own, but rather when we utilize it in the manner which Hashem commanded, we are exhibiting our faith/emmunah and trust/bitachon in his divine providence.
Do not think I am arguing that amulets are magical and have any power. I am arguing that the Talmud and other Jewish sources include the use of amulets to strengthen our faith, as do our tzit-tzits which we see with our eyes, so that we remember the commandments. So too the mezuzah which we see on the door, and know that this is a Jewish home.
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So, would the Bronze snake in the desert be an idol?
NO, I explained this a year ago when we discussed that portion.
The snake was not an idol, when they looked up at the snake they were reminded of Hashem... But eventually the people did view it as an idol...
Danger Of Wrong-Doing
It is at this point that the danger of real wrongdoing exists. A person who has realized that the laws of nature unto themselves are insufficient to explain the world, has tapped into this more spiritual world and come upon a melange of all sorts of "spiritual beings." If he understands they are agents of God, this becomes a true spiritual experience. But if he mistakenly understands them to be independent of God, then he engages in idol-worship! These forces then become a source for evil when they are viewed as an alternative power to God.
Perhaps the best illustration for this dual approach is inherent in the story of the "copper snake":
And the people spoke ill of God and Moses ... and God sent against them the burning serpents and they bit the people, and many people died ... and God told Moses: "Shape a snake [out of copper] and place it on a stick, and whoever was bitten will look at it and live." Moses then made a snake of copper and put it on a stick, and if a person was bitten by a snake, he would look at the copper snake and live. (Numbers 21:4-9)
The Mishna (Rosh Hashana 29a) puts this into perspective:
Did the serpent heal or kill? Rather, when Israel looked up heavenward, and dedicated their hearts to their Heavenly Father [they would be healed], and when not, they would waste away.
Here we have both facets of the supernatural: At first, the miraculous nature of the snake caused people to realize that the plague was God's doing, and they worked on bettering themselves. In this vein it was a positive spiritual experience.
But later things disintegrated and instead of the snake being a means to recognizing God, it became a focal point in itself, i.e. the wonderful healing snake ― separate from God's power. That is idolatry. For this reason, many hundreds of years later, King Hezekiah had this copper snake destroyed because people turned it into an idol!
I suppose this goes along with what I was saying in my previous post... That the object has no power of it's own, only to bring us to realize that Hashem is the only power.
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NO, I explained this a year ago when we discussed that portion.
The snake was not an idol, when they looked up at the snake they were reminded of Hashem... But eventually the people did view it as an idol...
I suppose this goes along with what I was saying in my previous post... That the object has no power of it's own, only to bring us to realize that Hashem is the only power.
Excellent, thank you! I don't know that much about amulets, but don't they have certain names of HaShem in them, or are blessed by a Tzadik? Wouldn't this be the same as the Copper snake blessed by HaShem?
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http://dafyomi.co.il/shabbos/insites/sh-dt-061.htm
2) SUMMARY: "MUMCHEH KAMEI'A" AND "MUMCHEH GAVRA"
The Gemara discusses what makes a Kamei'a (an amulet for healing) into a Kamei'a Mumcheh (one that has been proven to be effective), which one may wear in Reshus ha'Rabim on Shabbos regardless of the level of expertise of the doctor who wrote it. The Gemara also discusses what makes a doctor into a Rofeh Mumcheh (who has been proven to be an expert healer with his amulets), such that any amulet written by him may be worn in Reshus ha'Rabim on Shabbos. In order to better understand the Gemara, it is important to review several rules:
(a) There are three factors involved with giving a doctor or a Kamei'a the status of a Mumcheh:
1. the Kamei'a that was used
2. the doctor who wrote it
3. the person who was healed by it.
The Rishonim also mention a fourth factor -- which sickness the Kamei'a was intended to cure. However, this is not really an additional factor, but it is included in the first (the Kamei'a that was used). The practice was to write a different type of Kamei'a for each type of sickness, and to write the same type of Kamei'a for the same sickness. Therefore, for which sickness the Kamei'a was written is really the same as which Kamei'a was written (#1 above).
(b) The success of the cure may depend on the Mazal of the doctor, the Mazal of the sick person, or both. However, when a Kamei'a is proven effective, its success is not attributed to its Mazal but rather to the wisdom that went into writing it. The effectiveness of the doctor, on the other hand, can depend on his Mazal (RASHI 61b, DH Mazlei, and RAN there, who writes this more clearly). Thus, a doctor who is a "Mumcheh" may have propitious Mazal, while the "Mumcheh" status of the Kamei'a is determined solely by the skill and expertise involved in writing it.
(c) A Kamei'a becomes Mumcheh by successfully curing an illness three times, even if it was written by one doctor, or if it healed the same patient three times. We do not attribute the success of a Kamei'a that worked three times to the patient's Mazal or to the doctor's Mazal. Thus, if a doctor wrote one Kamei'a three times (and it was successful every time), the doctor does not become Mumcheh. The reason for this is either because the success of the Kamei'a depends on wisdom, and not on Mazal (Rashi DH Mazlei, and RAN), or because the Kamei'a is the main factor in improving the health of the sick person, since without the Kamei'a the doctor has no chance of curing the illness (RITVA). (Rashi at the beginning of the Sugya seems to contradict this when he writes that the doctor does become Mumcheh if he wrote the successful Kamei'a three times; see Insights to Shabbos 61:4.)
3) "MUMCHEH KAMEI'A"
OPINIONS: What is a Kamei'a Mumcheh? What makes it Mumcheh?
(a) RASHI says that the Mumcheh Kamei'a refers to the charm (that is, the specific script) that is written inside the amulet. Once that charm becomes Muchzak (it has worked three times consecutively), it may be written by any doctor to cure that illness, and it may be worn outside on Shabbos. According to Rashi, in order for a doctor to become Mumcheh, he must write three different successful charms. Once he has written three different successful charms, he may now write any charm, and one may wear it outside on Shabbos.
(b) TOSFOS and ROSH (6:8) disagree and say that just because a doctor knows how to write three charms is no proof that every charm he writes from then on will be successful. They therefore say that what Rashi describes as making the Kamei'a Mumcheh is actually what makes the doctor Mumcheh. A doctor who is Mumcheh, then, is one who has written one charm successfully three times. Mumcheh Kamei'a, according to Tosfos and Rosh, means that the very same amulet (that is, the actual piece of parchment itself) worked three times. Such an amulet may be worn by anyone on Shabbos. According to Tosfos, if the same text of that amulet is re-written and another amulet is made, even though it contains the same text as the successful amulet, it is considered an entirely new and different amulet.
Shulchan Aruch on Amulets: http://www.torah.org/advanced/shulchan-aruch/classes/chapter12.html
It is forbidden to consult astrologers or rely on omens, but it is permissible to prefer or avoid particular days of the week or month for certain activities or to make a decision based on the outcome of an event (179:1-4). It is forbidden to use incantations to control animals or for medicinal purposes except to avoid danger (179:5-11), but it is permissible to use amulets for protection against injury or sickness (179:12). It is permissible to consult the spirits of the dead (179:13-14) but dealings with demons should generally be avoided (179:16,19). It is forbidden to practice deceptive magic or to learn from a magician (179:15,19). On the use of Divine names for supernatural purposes see 246:21.
Sorry, I just read the first article. Where does the second one come from?
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http://www.torah.org/advanced/shulchan-aruch/classes/chapter12.html
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http://www.torah.org/advanced/shulchan-aruch/classes/chapter12.html
Yes, but who wrote it, where does the theory come from? Is it a book?
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Yes, but who wrote it, where does the theory come from? Is it a book?
The Shulchan Aruch (The Set Table) is a book of Jewish Law...
http://www.torah.org/advanced/shulchan-aruch/
The Shulchan Aruch ("Set Table") is a compendium of those areas of the halachah -- Jewish religious law -- that are applicable today. It was composed by Rabbi Yosef Karo of Safed (Israel) in the 1560's, and became generally accepted as authoritative after Rabbi Moshe Isserls of Cracow (Poland) supplemented it in the 1570's with notes (known as the Mappah - "Tablecloth") giving the rulings followed by Ashkenazic Jews.
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I never said that one should trust in amulets. I said that the Talmud most certainly discusses the amulet and whether it is permissible to move them on Shabbat.
Obviously everything in the Jewish world-view revolves around Hashems Hashgacha Pratis (Divine providence) and his involvement with the world. But the way he works in this world is through actions which we do.
I bring the Mezuzah which is a physical box containing the portions also contained in the Tefillin. Through our observing this commandment, Hashem promises us the merit of being protected from evil. So in this way it is similar to an amulet. But as you point out it is not any power of the amulet which is involved, but rather the fact that we did as Hashem commanded.
The Mezuzah has Torah in it. It clearly states G-d a bunch of times. The amulet is a little charm that does nothing.
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The Mezuzah has Torah in it. It clearly states G-d a bunch of times. The amulet is a little charm that does nothing.
The amulets of the Talmud do include Hashems name, in combinations according to mystical sources.
There is a Jewish law concerning the disposal of these amulets in a way which would prevent desecration of the name.
Anyway, amulets is off topic for this thread. Maybe if you want to talk about amulets we could move it to the Mezuzah thread I started the other day...