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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ChabadKahanist on December 16, 2013, 07:15:18 AM
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My son recentlycalled me from Baltimore & asked me what I thought of Rabbi Ralbag & Triangle K.
I said Rabbi Ralbag is a talmid chacham & yiras shamayim,however he relies on kulos that most other rabbis do not rely on.
I will not say his hechsher is traif,but what I will say some products are bidieved good for somebody just starting to keep kosher or somebody willing to rely on kulos.
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Why and how do you know that he relies of Kulas that other's do not? The impression I got from Rabbi Abadi (well his sons) is that he is perfectly Kosher and the same as Askenasim have had for all of these years (he didn't say it but basically its the same as the Yerushalmi paskens and the tradition that Askenaism had and have).
According to R Abadi triangle K and R' Ralbag is kosher on the same level as OU "Glatt" as well. Only REAL Glatt is Beit Yosef Glatt (of which he uses). Askenasi Glatt is the same as Kosher.
http://www.kashrut.org/forum/search.asp?page=1&keyword=triangle
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Why and how do you know that he relies of Kulas that other's do not? The impression I got from Rabbi Abadi (well his sons) is that he is perfectly Kosher and the same as Askenasim have had for all of these years (he didn't say it but basically its the same as the Yerushalmi paskens and the tradition that Askenaism had and have).
According to R Abadi triangle K and R' Ralbag is kosher on the same level as OU "Glatt" as well. Only REAL Glatt is Beit Yosef Glatt (of which he uses). Askenasi Glatt is the same as Kosher.
http://www.kashrut.org/forum/search.asp?page=1&keyword=triangle
I worked for over 20 years in kashrus & have heard from reliable rabbonim that he relies on kulos on some of the products he certifies such as Jell-O,however if Rav Abadai & his sons say this you can rely on him without asking anybody else he is beyond reproach & as I said Rabbi Ralbag is a talmid chacham & yiras shamayim.
I personally do not eat Hebrew National because that has become the accepted norm but would not say it it is not kosher,however the point is moot because it is not available here in Israel.
Many of his products are available here & are approved the rabbanut.
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I worked for over 20 years in kashrus & have heard from reliable rabbonim that he relies on kulos on some of the products he certifies such as Jell-O,however if Rav Abadai & his sons say this you can rely on him without asking anybody else he is beyond reproach & as I said Rabbi Ralbag is a talmid chacham & yiras shamayim.
I personally do not eat Hebrew National because that has become the accepted norm but would not say it it is not kosher,however the point is moot because it is not available here in Israel.
Many of his products are available here & are approved the rabbanut.
Ouch... I do eat Hebrew National and am glad it has a kosher Hechsher. I have heard the rumors that it is questionable among some circles... But I am not in those circles, and anything I can get at the local market that is kosher (acceptably for the majority) is GREATLY appreciated.
I mainly buy OU products (and they are the most popular hechsher in the markets here)...
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I worked for over 20 years in kashrus & have heard from reliable rabbonim that he relies on kulos on some of the products he certifies such as Jell-O,however if Rav Abadai & his sons say this you can rely on him without asking anybody else he is beyond reproach & as I said Rabbi Ralbag is a talmid chacham & yiras shamayim.
I personally do not eat Hebrew National because that has become the accepted norm but would not say it it is not kosher,however the point is moot because it is not available here in Israel.
Many of his products are available here & are approved the rabbanut.
You mean the Gelatin? Not only him, Rabbi Abadi, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and Rabbi Bar-Hayim does soo as well. Basically all the Sefardim and amoung the Askenaism their are as well who also agree to this. Its in the Rambam as well. From our point of view its not a Kula to rely on it, but the Halacha the only question is those who do not rely on it on what sources are you relying on? ( I can send you the Teshuva on this) but the question isn't why he is doing this Kula (or if it is a Kula), but why you are doing a Humra (or even more soo) doing something at least we don't see problematic at all.
Is that all? What about the meat is their any real complaints about the meat in particular? At least according to R' Abadi they say its because they don't like him personally and not to listen to rumors made by the industry but to see and go by real evidence and such. Soo as someone who worked (or works) in that industry from your perspective is their anything substantial to the claims or its just politics?
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You mean the Gelatin? Not only him, Rabbi Abadi, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and Rabbi Bar-Hayim does soo as well. Basically all the Sefardim and amoung the Askenaism their are as well who also agree to this. Its in the Rambam as well. From our point of view its not a Kula to rely on it, but the Halacha the only question is those who do not rely on it on what sources are you relying on? ( I can send you the Teshuva on this) but the question isn't why he is doing this Kula (or if it is a Kula), but why you are doing a Humra (or even more soo) doing something at least we don't see problematic at all.
Is that all? What about the meat is their any real complaints about the meat in particular? At least according to R' Abadi they say its because they don't like him personally and not to listen to rumors made by the industry but to see and go by real evidence and such. Soo as someone who worked (or works) in that industry from your perspective is their anything substantial to the claims or its just politics?
Most in the Ashkenazi community do not accept gelatin as being okay & hold that those that do do so al pi kula ask the OU,OK.NK,Star-K,Chaf,K,KAJ,CHK,etc.
As far as the meat I know those that say it is chumra & others that say it is politics,I do remember that until the late 70's the OU gave hechsherim on non-glatt meat & soon afterwards stopped & started with a glatt only policy.
As I said I worked as a mashgiach for over 20 years & I know things that most wouldn't. & things are always changing.
I remember a time when butchers & rstaurants had no hecsher at atll other than on the products & people just relied on them if they were religious & that is no longer the case today.
But I can tell you much of it is politics for instance for years nobody used Maneshchwiz all of sudden it gets an OU & it is okay.the previous hecsher were 2 local NY rabbanim who everybody held by but wouldn't use their wine for some odd reason.
Same with Hebrew National it was good under Rabbi Yehuda Atulsky,ZT"L & later under Rabbi Tibor Stern,ZT"L & still good under Rabbi Ralbag but people don't use it.
You can not say it is not kosher some may be chumros or kulos & other could be politics.
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Most in the Ashkenazi community do not accept gelatin as being okay & hold that those that do do so al pi kula ask the OU,OK.NK,Star-K,Chaf,K,KAJ,CHK,etc.
As far as the meat I know those that say it is chumra & others that say it is politics,I do remember that until the late 70's the OU gave hechsherim on non-glatt meat & soon afterwards stopped & started with a glatt only policy.
As I said I worked as a mashgiach for over 20 years & I know things that most wouldn't. & things are always changing.
I remember a time when butchers & rstaurants had no hecsher at atll other than on the products & people just relied on them if they were religious & that is no longer the case today.
But I can tell you much of it is politics for instance for years nobody used Maneshchwiz all of sudden it gets an OU & it is okay.the previous hecsher were 2 local NY rabbanim who everybody held by but wouldn't use their wine for some odd reason.
Same with Hebrew National it was good under Rabbi Yehuda Atulsky,ZT"L & later under Rabbi Tibor Stern,ZT"L & still good under Rabbi Ralbag but people don't use it.
You can not say it is not kosher some may be chumros or kulos & other could be politics.
that doesn't make it not Kosher. Just that means that for some reason they don't want to accept it. As with everything they need to have a real substantial reason why soo and not just declare it not Kosher because of??
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-ask-the-rav/27-kashrut/390-is-gelatin-kosher
( I can show you more detailed from R Abadi, from the Rambam etc. but maybe later).
The case needs to be shown why they pasken the way they do and not allow it.
"OU Glatt" is "just Kosher". What really changed from that time till now besides the stamp. Before the stamp read "Kosher" today it reads "Glatt Kosher". Or am I missing something?
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdMs4T5RmNI
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that doesn't make it not Kosher. Just that means that for some reason they don't want to accept it. As with everything they need to have a real substantial reason why soo and not just declare it not Kosher because of??
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-ask-the-rav/27-kashrut/390-is-gelatin-kosher
( I can show you more detailed from R Abadi, from the Rambam etc. but maybe later).
The case needs to be shown why they pasken the way they do and not allow it.
"OU Glatt" is "just Kosher". What really changed from that time till now besides the stamp. Before the stamp read "Kosher" today it reads "Glatt Kosher". Or am I missing something?
I agree & know what Rav Abadi says & if he says so you can bank on it.
As I said some is politics & the rest chumros & kulos.
OU had stuff that said glatt kosher in the past & stuff just marked kosher & towards the end of the 70's they did away with the just plain kosher as to to why I have no idea & it is a good question.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdMs4T5RmNI
Asher Meza is a fraud & nobody in the frum community accepts him.
Ask Chaim & others here about this guy.
He is known to make fraudulent conversions & have some very wacky ideas.
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I knew you were going to say that, but otherwise on that video I don't see what he said to be wrong. What in particular is problematic.
Can you answer this question and statement of mine-
"OU Glatt" is "just Kosher". What really changed from that time till now besides the stamp. Before the stamp read "Kosher" today it reads "Glatt Kosher". Or am I missing something?
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I knew you were going to say that, but otherwise on that video I don't see what he said to be wrong. What in particular is problematic.
Can you answer this question and statement of mine-
"OU Glatt" is "just Kosher". What really changed from that time till now besides the stamp. Before the stamp read "Kosher" today it reads "Glatt Kosher". Or am I missing something?
Nothing he said here was problematic at all & as a matter of fact he is quite correct & accurate.
As I said earlier OU gave heachsherim to both glatt & stam kosher until the end of the 70's & the stopped as to why I it is a question & I have no idea.
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Nothing he said here was problematic at all & as a matter of fact he is quite correct & accurate.
As I said earlier OU gave heachsherim to both glatt & stam kosher until the end of the 70's & the stopped as to why I it is a question & I have no idea.
Thank you for the clarifications, for me it confirmed it. Soo basically you would agree that Triangle K and "OU GLATT" are on the same par? Soo would you allow or encourage (or be mutual) with your son purchasing Triangle K Meat products now?
Either way personally I do get "OU Glatt", out of convenience though, not as a protest of Triangle K just convenient and I get a good deal in bulk and availability as well. Would have no problem eating Triangle K though from the different information I have received as of now.
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Actually I re-read your last statement, I think in the video it mentions why, and I have said it earlier as well. Its the same thing just a different label (and that is why I asked by your information if not soo and if their is any difference between "Kosher" and "Askenasi Glatt".
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Thank you for the clarifications, for me it confirmed it. Soo basically you would agree that Triangle K and "OU GLATT" are on the same par? Soo would you allow or encourage (or be mutual) with your son purchasing Triangle K Meat products now?
Either way personally I do get "OU Glatt", out of convenience though, not as a protest of Triangle K just convenient and I get a good deal in bulk and availability as well. Would have no problem eating Triangle K though from the different information I have received as of now.
Being that most in his & most communities do not use I would not tell him to go against his local rav & use it,I on the other hand if I am in a place where something widely accepted is not available would use it if needed.
Many here in Israel don't use rabbanut stam kosher but will use rabbanut mehadrin I will eat rabbanut stam but I will not use some rabbanut dairy products such as chocolate bars & stuff containing cholov nochri or powdered cholov nochri I see no heter here in Israel to rely on a heter which was only given for the US when cholov yisroel is abundant here & preferable.
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Actually I re-read your last statement, I think in the video it mentions why, and I have said it earlier as well. Its the same thing just a different label (and that is why I asked by your information if not soo and if their is any difference between "Kosher" and "Askenasi Glatt".
There shouldn't be,some say that there is I just can't see it from my experience
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Being that most in his & most communities do not use I would not tell him to go against his local rav & use it,I on the other hand if I am in a place where something widely accepted is not available would use it if needed.
Many here in Israel don't use rabbanut stam kosher but will use rabbanut mehadrin I will eat rabbanut stam but I will not use some rabbanut dairy products such as chocolate bars & stuff containing cholov nochri or powdered cholov nochri I see no heter here in Israel to rely on a heter which was only given for the US when cholov yisroel is abundant here & preferable.
>:( I hate that I deleted my comment by accident soo now I will attempt to rewrite most of it.
1) Understandable, also probably smart not to stand out and be possibly ostracized.
2) Rabbanut in Israel is a big issue from what I hear. Many of the things are good while some are problematic (Rav Bar-Hayim). I don't know what is or what isn't but I suspect some of the things having to do with Orla and agricultural products and such. I don't live there and Rav Bar-Hayim told me that once I get there he will tell me in details. I also think that he said that "Rabbanut chickens" for example are perfectly fine.
3) "Cholev Yisrael" is a different issue, I don't see why it would be a problem in Israel. The Teshuva of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein ZTL was written for "developed countries" and Israel surely fits in the category. Perhaps if you go to China it would be an issue. I don't see what issues would be in Israel? Perhaps the Arabs? But with them nothing can or should be trusted. Either way its mainly factory made where the cows are milked through machines. What issues do you see in them?
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CK see this Teshuva http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-ask-the-rav/27-kashrut/116-chocolate-halav-nokhrim
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>:( I hate that I deleted my comment by accident soo now I will attempt to rewrite most of it.
1) Understandable, also probably smart not to stand out and be possibly ostracized.
2) Rabbanut in Israel is a big issue from what I hear. Many of the things are good while some are problematic (Rav Bar-Hayim). I don't know what is or what isn't but I suspect some of the things having to do with Orla and agricultural products and such. I don't live there and Rav Bar-Hayim told me that once I get there he will tell me in details. I also think that he said that "Rabbanut chickens" for example are perfectly fine.
3) "Cholev Yisrael" is a different issue, I don't see why it would be a problem in Israel. The Teshuva of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein ZTL was written for "developed countries" and Israel surely fits in the category. Perhaps if you go to China it would be an issue. I don't see what issues would be in Israel? Perhaps the Arabs? But with them nothing can or should be trusted. Either way its mainly factory made where the cows are milked through machines. What issues do you see in them?
All the milk & dairy products here have supervision,I just don't use the stuff made from powdered milk because I try to use from exclusively Jewish sources,indeed Arabs use camel milk but nobody busy milk from Arab farms all the milk comes from Jewish companies like Tnuva or Tara.
All the cheese & yogurts have a hechsher & most with a few hechsherim on them.
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All the milk & dairy products here have supervision,I just don't use the stuff made from powdered milk because I try to use from exclusively Jewish sources,indeed Arabs use camel milk but nobody busy milk from Arab farms all the milk comes from Jewish companies like Tnuva or Tara.
All the cheese & yogurts have a hechsher & most with a few hechsherim on them.
I see a contradiction in your response.
"I just don't use the stuff made from powdered milk because I try to use from exclusively Jewish sources"
Okay but then you say "all the milk comes from Jewish companies like Tnuva or Tara."
Soo if all the milk is from Jewish companies then its buying from Jews and not from Arabs. Also I don't see anything preventing even the companies labeled "Halav Yisrael" using Arab labor of which it can be likely.
Soo why or what other reason would you not use something in Israel labeled just "Kosher" milk for example.
Or in particular "I just don't use the stuff made from powdered milk"
WHY?
What's that anyway? you said earlier
"but I will not use some rabbanut dairy products such as chocolate bars & stuff containing cholov nochri or powdered cholov nochri I see no heter here in Israel to rely on a heter which was only given for the US when cholov yisroel is abundant here & preferable."
What's the particular preference? And why you consider it not Kosher (as you said " I see no heter in Israel") .
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I see a contradiction in your response.
"I just don't use the stuff made from powdered milk because I try to use from exclusively Jewish sources"
Okay but then you say "all the milk comes from Jewish companies like Tnuva or Tara."
Soo if all the milk is from Jewish companies then its buying from Jews and not from Arabs. Also I don't see anything preventing even the companies labeled "Halav Yisrael" using Arab labor of which it can be likely.
Soo why or what other reason would you not use something in Israel labeled just "Kosher" milk for example.
Or in particular "I just don't use the stuff made from powdered milk"
WHY?
What's that anyway? you said earlier
"but I will not use some rabbanut dairy products such as chocolate bars & stuff containing cholov nochri or powdered cholov nochri I see no heter here in Israel to rely on a heter which was only given for the US when cholov yisroel is abundant here & preferable."
What's the particular preference? And why you consider it not Kosher (as you said " I see no heter in Israel") .
As far I understood the heter to use regular milk was only in the US because of the USDA & fear of the Government by Goyim.
Even Rav Moshe,ZT"L who gave the heter said it was preferable to use Cholov Yisroel
I don't use the chocolate bars because it is made from milk not milked by Jews & from outside of Israel why use foreign powdered milk when we can get local milk & from Jews?
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As far I understood the heter to use regular milk was only in the US because of the USDA & fear of the Government by Goyim.
Even Rav Moshe,ZT"L who gave the heter said it was preferable to use Cholov Yisroel
I don't use the chocolate bars because it is made from milk not milked by Jews & from outside of Israel why use foreign powdered milk when we can get local milk & from Jews?
I didn't know its from outside of Israel. I thought you were saying between different brands from within.
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I didn't know its from outside of Israel. I thought you were saying between different brands from within.
I am talking about chocolate bars manufactured here but which uses powdered milk from outside Israel.
The company makes mehadrin with Jewish powdered milk here from Israel & non-mehadrin with powdered Cholov Nochri from outside of Israel.
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I am talking about chocolate bars manufactured here but which uses powdered milk from outside Israel.
The company makes mehadrin with Jewish powdered milk here from Israel & non-mehadrin with powdered Cholov Nochri from outside of Israel.
Ok, I posted t earlier and I think it would be relevant to this as well, but I do still suppose its better to buy from Jewish companies and support internal workers as well, but from a purely "allowed vs. assur" perspective I don't see why it would be a problem.
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-ask-the-rav/27-kashrut/116-chocolate-halav-nokhrim
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Ok, I posted t earlier and I think it would be relevant to this as well, but I do still suppose its better to buy from Jewish companies and support internal workers as well, but from a purely "allowed vs. assur" perspective I don't see why it would be a problem.
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-ask-the-rav/27-kashrut/116-chocolate-halav-nokhrim
Some communities hold it is forbidden others do not & it is according to your community & rav.
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Some communities hold it is forbidden others do not & it is according to your community & rav.
I was asking from a Halachic perspective and I thought you would and are qualified to discuss it perhaps.
Or put in a different way why those who say it is forbidden do soo, why do you (or they) hold that way.
Also about community- I don't necessary think soo (maybe unless you can prove otherwise). This is a question of an interpretation of a Halacha and not a Gezirah perhaps. A communities Rav can be mistaken as well and not everyone would necessarily be bound to that Psak is they either have another Rav or they are able to determine the Halacha to be otherwise (both for those who would be more strict and those who would be more lenient in the case).
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I was asking from a Halachic perspective and I thought you would and are qualified to discuss it perhaps.
Or put in a different way why those who say it is forbidden do soo, why do you (or they) hold that way.
Also about community- I don't necessary think soo (maybe unless you can prove otherwise). This is a question of an interpretation of a Halacha and not a Gezirah perhaps. A communities Rav can be mistaken as well and not everyone would necessarily be bound to that Psak is they either have another Rav or they are able to determine the Halacha to be otherwise (both for those who would be more strict and those who would be more lenient in the case).
Based on shulchan aruch on the fear that Goyim might use milk from a non-kosher animal also according to chasidus cholov nochri polutes your mind & your heart.
Most chareidim use strictly chlolov yisroel.
Only thing I make an exception is butter because butter can only be made from cow's milk.
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Based on shulchan aruch on the fear that Goyim might use milk from a non-kosher animal also according to chasidus cholov nochri polutes your mind & your heart.
Most chareidim use strictly chlolov yisroel.
Only thing I make an exception is butter because butter can only be made from cow's milk.
My understanding is that it is permitted under the circumstances of the Shulhan Aruch (which bases it on the Gemarah). Probably a situation of a Safek Sfeka
Machonshilo-
The Talmudh Yerushalmi Avodha Zara 2:9 (Vilna 2: 8 ) gives two reasons why milk bought from a non-Jew was decreed to be asur:
a) giluy (i.e. a poisonous creature may have excreted venom into the milk if left uncovered);
b) the possible admixture of milk from a non-kosher animal.
The Talmudh Bavli AZ 35b gives only the latter reason.
The last Mishna of that 2nd chapter of AZ (39b) and both Talmudhim state that if the Jew can see the non-Jew milking - or even if the non-Jew thinks the Jew might be able to see him and therefore would not risk doing anything that he knows the Jew will not accept such as adding milk from a non-kosher animal - the milk is permitted. See Rambam's MT Maakhaloth Asuroth 3:15 (or 3:17). From all this we see plainly that if there is good reason to believe that the milk before us is in fact from a kosher animal, the milk is mutar. (Regarding giluy, almost no-one today is mahmir about giluy as venomous snakes and the like are not common in our homes today, as pointed out by almost all the Rishonim).
http://www.kashrut.org/forum/viewpost.asp?mid=51020&highlight=
He says dairy is fine in Israel.
About the second part- for me irrelevant to a Halahic discussion.
Also if the Shulhan Aruch differs from the Talmudh if you have the exact source maybe share it.
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Shulchan Aruch/Yoreh Deah 115
Paragraph 1:
Milk that was milked by non-Jews and no Jew saw them do so, it is forbidden as perhaps non-kosher milk was mixed in. If it was milked in his house and a Jew was sitting outside, if it is known that there is no non-kosher animal in his herd, it is permitted, even if no Jew is able to see him at the time that he milks the animal. If he has a non-kosher animal in his herd, and the Jew sits outside, and the non-Jew is milking only for the sake of the Jew, even if the Jew is unable to see him when he is sitting, if he is able to see him when he stands, this is permitted, because the non-Jew fears that perhaps he will stand and be seen, and he knows that non-kosher milk is forbidden the to Jew.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Shulchan_Aruch/Yoreh_Deah/115
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What you quoted is correct,some people are machmir though