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Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: edu on December 29, 2013, 01:52:23 AM

Title: Arabs Getting Circumcisions - Yes and No
Post by: edu on December 29, 2013, 01:52:23 AM
Rambam to Hilchot Melachim 10:8 holds that the sons of Avraham's wife, Ketura, which are the seed of Avraham that came after Yishmael and Yitzchak are obligated in Brit Mila (circumcision) And since in our days the descendants of Yishmael and the sons of Ketura have intermarried (losing their distinct identity) all of this mixed group will be obligated in Brit Mila on day 8 of a baby's life.
רמב"ם הלכות מלכים פרק י
הלכה ח
אמרו חכמים שבני קטורה שהם זרעו של אברהם שבא אחר ישמעאל ויצחק חייבין במילה, והואיל ונתערבו היום בני ישמעאל בבני קטורה יתחייבו הכל במילה בשמיני
Rashi disagrees. He holds that only the first generation of the sons of Ketura had the Brit Mila obligation. Torah Temima explains that Rashi holds that these people are not considered on a religious level, the seed of Avraham and the first generation from Ketura were only obligated because all that were born to Avraham's household needed a Brit Mila.
Title: Re: Arabs Getting Circumcisions - Yes and No
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on December 29, 2013, 10:07:42 AM
Bigger question is if Hashem wants people besides Jews to have a circumcision or not. For example when people came to Yosef during the famine he had them circumcised if they wanted to receive food. Soo perhaps circumcision is good for all. OR we can explain perhaps that he did it in order to take away some of the Yetzer Hara for sexual relations and at the time their was starvation and it was a bad policy to bring more people into the world.
Title: Re: Arabs Getting Circumcisions - Yes and No
Post by: cjd on December 29, 2013, 10:20:26 AM
Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on December 29, 2013, 10:07:42 AM
Bigger question is if Hashem wants people besides Jews to have a circumcision or not. For example when people came to Yosef during the famine he had them circumcised if they wanted to receive food. Soo perhaps circumcision is good for all. OR we can explain perhaps that he did it in order to take away some of the Yetzer Hara for sexual relations and at the time their was starvation and it was a bad policy to bring more people into the world.
Just how much is the moil cutting off in order to do population control? You make it sound like a castration.
Title: Re: Arabs Getting Circumcisions - Yes and No
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on December 29, 2013, 01:52:06 PM
Quote from: cjd on December 29, 2013, 10:20:26 AM
Just how much is the moil cutting off in order to do population control? You make it sound like a castration.

 It takes away some of the lust and gives opportunity to have self control. Without the Brit Milah it is a lot harder to control oneself. At the time Yosef could have had people circumcised because it was years of famine and it would have been a lot harder to feed more mouths. Soo he would only sell food to people who were circumcised and people would do circumcision because they were hungry and in need of food.
Title: Re: Arabs Getting Circumcisions - Yes and No
Post by: muman613 on December 29, 2013, 02:34:24 PM
Tag is correct about one of the reasons we are commanded to get a Brit Milah (Circumcision) on the 8th day...

One of the things about the brit is that it reduces the unholy use of the male sexual organ by reminding us of the covenant with Abraham...

http://www.shemayisrael.com/mikvah/britmilah.html

Since then ,for all Jewish baby boys, brit milah (the covenant of circumcision) must be done on the eighth day after birth. It can be done later if medical reasons warrant postponing it, but never earlier. The word "brit" means covenant and "milah" means circumcision. Circumcision establishes a covenant between God and the Jew. (A Jewish female is considered circumcised in a spiritual sense from birth, possessing this holy covenant within herself from the moment she is born). God wanted to permanently affix a symbol on the bodies of the Jewish males since He chose the Jewish nation to be called by His name. Circumcision on the male sexual organ was designated as the symbol of the Covenant because this is the source from which the perpetuation of the species emanates. One might ask why did God not create the human being already circumcised if He desired this Covenant? The reason God did not create the human being complete in the mother’s womb is to indicate that just as the physical aspects of the body can be made better by human deeds, so is it within the human power to perfect the soul by correcting oneself spiritually through the covenant of circumcision. A man must guard the purity of his sexual organ and refine himself constantly in life: this is the biggest test and challenge to the human being. The lifeforce and most positive energy aspect of a human being (the creative power one possesses), must be directed to Godliness at all times and must be used for holiness. No man is immune to the challenges of the sexual urge.

The greatest concentration of impurity comes to rest upon the male sex organ at that time (since it has the potential to produce life and wherever there is an opening for holiness and positive energy to flow, the unholy forces attach themselves to that opening). In this case, they become concentrated in the foreskin. The foreskin becomes the embodiment of negativity and unholiness in the child.

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On a metaphysical level, we cut off the potential of negative energy to become actualized in the life of this person, and we give the person extra strength to overcome problems and impurity in life. Kabbalah explains that in this physical world there are many blocks to seeing and experiencing Godliness. A person must remove these blocks and find God. Circumcision is such an act of separating and removing unholiness. By removing the foreskin, spiritually we remove the potential for undesirable character traits, depressive tendencies and so on. We eliminate from the body of the child forces which may try to cultivate overindulgence in physical pleasures etc. In other words, we give the child a head start in fighting life’s battles, a sort of spiritual immunization . Circumcision implies that the foreskin interposed between man and the world outside man is a spiritual defect which has to be removed. This defect is the heightened sensuality of the foreskin on the one hand together with its innate callousness on the other. The presence of the foreskin makes sexual relations more physically exciting but also insulates the individual from his partner's feelings. It is thus at once the physical manifestation of both selfish, sensual desire and innate egocentricity. If left in place it will become the root of all the evils that may plague a person in life. Circumcision is the act of desensitizing a person to his own lust for pleasure and sensitizing him to others feelings.
Title: Re: Arabs Getting Circumcisions - Yes and No
Post by: muman613 on December 29, 2013, 02:38:10 PM
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/339271/jewish/An-Order-to-Circumcise.htm

The Torah portion of Miketz relates how the seven years of plenty came to an end as foretold by Joseph, and "... the entire land of Egypt hungered, and the people cried out to Pharaoh for bread; and Pharaoh said to all the Egyptians: 'Go to Joseph (and) do what he will tell you.'"1

Commenting on the words " ... do what he will tell you," the famed commenter Rashi states: "For Joseph was telling them to circumcise themselves, and when they came to Pharaoh and said 'this is what he tells us [to do],' Pharaoh replied: 'Why didn't you gather produce? Didn't [Joseph] notify you that the famine years were coming?' They said to Pharaoh, 'We indeed gathered much produce -- but it rotted!' He replied, "If that is the case, do everything he will tell you; you see that he decreed against the produce and it rotted -- what if he will decree against us and we die?!'"

Earlier in the same chapter we learn that Joseph had been placed in absolute public control of the livelihood and sustenance of all Egypt.2 Why, then, when the famine struck, did the Egyptians cry to Pharaoh for food? Because they had previously approached Joseph and had been rebuffed. But how could Joseph refuse them? His office and function was to serve that very purpose of providing food for the people! The reason is because Joseph demanded that they become circumcised. Balking at this demand they came to Pharaoh to complain.

But why did Joseph make such a (seemingly) strange request of the Egyptians?

When the Al-mighty commanded Abraham and his descendants about circumcision, He said: "He that is born in your house or he that is acquired with your money shall surely be circumcised."3 The reason that the master is obligated to ensure the circumcision of "... he that is acquired with ... money" is because the latter is under his dominion and is subservient to him.

Joseph was "the ruler of the land"4 -- he was appointed "over the entire land of Egypt."5 Without Joseph's permission, "no man may raise his hand in combat nor raise his foot to mount a horse in all the land of Egypt."6 The Egyptian people were clearly subservient to Joseph, and were completely under his dominion as if "bought with money." Joseph was therefore obligated to ensure their circumcision.

The Jewish nation as a whole is called "Joseph,"7 and every individual can be a "Joseph" in his daily life. Those who live in an "Egypt," surrounded by people whose sole interests are material and who are far from Judaism, should not be disheartened. Not only can they maintain their own standards of Torah and mitzvot, but they can even exert a powerful influence upon their brother Jews. What is more,8 they have the potential of ultimately becoming a shining example, "a beacon of light," encouraging members of all nations to fulfill the Al-mighty's laws for Mankind.9

FOOTNOTES
1.   Genesis 41:55.
2.   Genesis ibid. verse 40; Rashi there.
3.   Ibid. 17:13.
4.   Ibid 42:6.
5.   Ibid 41:43.
6.   Ibid 41:44.
7.   Psalms 80:2; Rashi & Metzudos ibid.
8.   Viz. Maimonides, Laws of Kings, 8:10.
9.   Based on excerpts of a talk by the Lubavitcher Rebbe dated Shabbat Miketz 5731 (December 26, 1970).
Title: Re: Arabs Getting Circumcisions - Yes and No
Post by: edu on December 29, 2013, 03:14:28 PM
I read that a lot of Yosef's (Joseph's) actions in Egypt, such as demanding that the Egyptians get a circumcision was to make it easier on the children of Israel in the exile.
So for example, if the Egyptians were also circumcising there would be less social pressure against the children of Israel not to circumcise.
Title: Re: Arabs Getting Circumcisions - Yes and No
Post by: muman613 on December 29, 2013, 04:56:14 PM
Quote from: edu on December 29, 2013, 03:14:28 PM
I read that a lot of Yosef's (Joseph's) actions in Egypt, such as demanding that the Egyptians get a circumcision was to make it easier on the children of Israel in the exile.
So for example, if the Egyptians were also circumcising there would be less social pressure against the children of Israel not to circumcise.

I have heard this explanation also...
Title: Re: Arabs Getting Circumcisions - Yes and No
Post by: muman613 on December 29, 2013, 05:01:44 PM
Here Rabbi Mansour confirms the belief which Tag brought, that the Circumcision was meant to curb the growth of the Egyptian nation. Before today I had not heard this explanation, so thanks Tag...


http://www.dailyhalacha.com/WeeklyParasha.asp?ParashaClipID=477
Parashat Shemot: We Cannot Outsmart G-d

The Torah in Parashat Shemot tells of Pharaoh’s decree that every newborn Jewish boy be thrown into the river. The Sages explain that Pharaoh saw through astrology that the redeemer of Beneh Yisrael would soon be born. In an attempt to stop this from happening, he issued a decree that all newborns among Beneh Yisrael should be killed. He felt confident that this measure would prevent the leader from emerging.

In the end, of course, his plan failed, Moshe was saved, and Beneh Yisrael were led out of Egypt. But the plan’s failure runs even deeper. It was Pharaoh’s own daughter who rescued Moshe and raised him in the palace. Pharaoh was determined the kill the leader while he was still an infant, but in the end, the leader was raised in his own home. He himself fed and supported the man whose existence he feared.

We cannot outsmart G-d. As much as we would like to think that we can control our destiny, and that we hold the keys to our success, G-d exercises complete control over us.

We see this message unfold in a different aspect of the Exodus story, as well. The Torah describes the Pharaoh who enslaved Beneh Yisrael as “not knowing” Yosef (“Asher Lo Yada Et Yosef” – 1:8). As the Rabbis note, it is inconceivable that a king would arise over Egypt who had never heard about Yosef. Yosef was the one who saved Egypt from widespread hunger and economic ruin, leading it to become the wealthiest and most prosperous nation on earth. Undoubtedly, the new Pharaoh heard about Yosef. The Hachamim thus explain this verse to mean that the new king reversed Yosef’s policies. One of the measures undertaken by Yosef during the years of drought was requiring the Egyptians to undergo circumcision. This was done in an effort to curb the nation’s population growth, in order that there would not be so many people to feed, given the limited food supply. But Pharaoh saw that Beneh Yisrael were rapidly reproducing despite practicing the custom of circumcision, and thus concluded that there was no longer any purpose served by enforcing this law. And so he revoked Yosef’s legislation requiring the Egyptian males to undergo circumcision.

This revocation of Yosef’s decree is what paved the way for Beneh Yisrael’s redemption. When Pharaoh’s daughter saw a baby floating in a basket in the river, she looked at the baby and immediately recognized him as a Jew (“Mi’yaldeh Ha’ibrim Zeh” – 2:5). How did she know this baby belonged to Beneh Yisrael? The Sages explain that she noticed Moshe was circumcised, and thus immediately identified him as a Jew. If her father had not revoked the decree requiring all Egyptians to be circumcised, she would not have been able to identify Moshe as a Jew, and he would thus not have been nursed and raised by his mother. He would have been raised never knowing his Israelite origins, and would thus not have emerged as Beneh Yisrael’s leader. Remarkably, it was Pharaoh himself who paved the way for Beneh Yisrael’s redemption.

One of the famous passages in the Haggadah that we sing at the Seder is “Ve’hi She’ameda,” where we proclaim how in every generation people rise against us, “Ve’ha’Kadosh Baruch Hu Masilenu Mi’yadam” – “But the Almighty rescues us from their hand.” Some commentators explain the phrase “Masilenu Mi’yadam” to mean that Hashem saves us “from their hands” – through the enemies’ own efforts. They plot and conspire against us, but those efforts themselves become the cause and source of our salvation – as was the case with Pharaoh.

This is one of the many lessons to be learned from the story of Yesi’at Misrayim. Although we can and must make an effort to care for ourselves and do what we think is the best for us, ultimately, Hashem exercises full control over us, our lives and the world. Even the most sophisticated, well-planned strategies can backfire and have the opposite effect if this is what Hashem decides to do. We should try our hardest – but while recognizing that ultimately we are powerless and everything is controlled by the Almighty.
Title: Re: Arabs Getting Circumcisions - Yes and No
Post by: edu on December 30, 2013, 05:15:54 AM
In Teshuva 148 of the Rambam (Maimonides)
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1730&pgnum=297
Rambam was asked several questions about Jews performing Circumcisions for Gentiles.
Even though, Rambam was the court physician for the Muslim King, Saladin and even though Rambam (in contrast to Rashi) believed Arabs were obligated in the commandment of Brit Mila, he has a quite shocking response, concerning the question, Is a Jew allowed to be the Mohel for the Arab?
He answers that it depends.
If the guy wants the Brit Mila because he believes in the prophecy of Moshe Rabbeinu who was commanded the commandment of Brit Mila from G-d, then we do it for him.
But if the Arab is just doing it for health reasons to cure himself from a sickness called Morana then it is forbidden for a Jew to be a Mohel for that guy.
Title: Re: Arabs Getting Circumcisions - Yes and No
Post by: Israel Chai on December 30, 2013, 06:23:39 AM
If they do it to themselves, great. They usually don't remove the blood, and lots of them die from infection.