JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: muman613 on March 04, 2014, 12:33:32 AM
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Shalom,
In a previous thread I revealed that last Shabbat I spoke with my Rabbi and a friend about Rabbi Meir Kahane (ZT'l)... During this conversation I learned a couple of new things.
My friend said he had read something which disturbed him concerning the great rabbi. I asked him specifically what the issue was....
He said that he had seen the 'Playboy Interview' which Rabbi Kahane gave in the 70s (actually I am not sure of the date)... First off, I was not aware that Rabbi Kahane would grant an interview to such a magazine... So I took what he said with a grain of salt...
The real issue was that he said that in this interview the Rabbi admitted he worked for the FBI in an investigation of the John Birch society. Rabbi Kahane, under an assumed name, joined the John Birch society in order to infiltrate it in case the FBI wanted to know something about the organization.
As it turns out this is a true story. I found a link on JTF with a transcript of the interview...
Here is a link to the original interview re-posted on JTF @ http://jtf.org/forum/index.php?topic=5526.0
KAHANE: In the early Sixties, a friend and I set up a research institute, our own business. We did a lot of work for the Government?the State Department, the Pentagon. In 1963, we were contacted by one agency that asked whether we'd be interested in researching radical groups, particularly on the right.
PLAYBOY: What agency?
KAHANE: Well. . . .
PLAYBOY: Was it the FBI?
KAHANE: They'd say it's not true.
PLAYBOY: Is it?
KAHANE: All right, we were contacted by the FBI to do work on the Birchers. It was no big deal; I mean, I was no FBI agent. We just did contract work for them, and they paid us.
PLAYBOY: How did you conduct your investigation?
KAHANE: It was my idea that the best way to do a research job on a group was to join it. So I became a member of the Birch Society under the name Michael King.
PLAYBOY: That's more or less a translation of your name.
KAHANE: Yes. You don't join the Birchers and hope to get anywhere with the name Meir Kahane. I spent about two and a half years with them, and I really learned a lot. But it was difficult on account of my religion. I constantly had to make up reasons why I couldn't attend meetings on Friday nights.
PLAYBOY: Did you find that the Birchers were really a serious threat?
KAHANE: What bothered me more than anything else was the large number of ostensibly normal people in the society. There's this great liberal arrogance that anybody who's right of center has to be a kook, a nut, an oddball, and it's not true. If it were, I'd feel happier about it. But there was a large number of physicians, attorneys, college graduates, who sat and listened to?and believed ?things that were completely absurd about the Communist threat to America. These people were pillars of the community, and it frightened me that such people were willing to believe such stuff. That's what bothered me more than anything else about the Birchers. Today it's the John Birch Society; tomorrow it will be a worse group.
PLAYBOY: You and your organization do have one quality in common with many American conservatives: hawkishness on military issues. Your concern over Israel's security is understandable?doubly so since your wife and four children live there. But you've also supported the war effort in Vietnam. Do you feel that is in some way tied in with Israel's interests?
Now I am not a fan of John Birch society because I have heard that some members are Jew haters.... But my friend from minyan is a conservative, and he is a Jewish member of John Birch, and he viewed this revelation in a very negative light.
I was unable to discuss the topic with him at the time because it was news to me, I had never heard about A) The playboy interview, and B) That Rabbi Kahane worked for the FBI... My ex-wifes father also was a member of the John Birch society...
I was wondering if any other JTF members, or Chaim, can shed some insight into this chapter of Kahanist history...
Thank you,
Muman613
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At the time the John Birch society was extremely anti-semitic. If they have changed great, but in that era the JBS was the respectable organization for Jew haters to join.
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Wikipedia says this:
Former Eisenhower cabinet member Ezra Taft Benson — a leading Mormon — spoke in favor of the John Birch Society, but in January 1963 the LDS church issued a statement distancing itself from the Society.[45] Antisemitic, racist, anti-Mormon, anti-Masonic, and various religious groups criticized the group's acceptance of Jews, non-whites, Masons, and Mormons. These opponents accused Welch of harboring feminist, ecumenical, and evolutionary ideas.[46][47][48] Welch rejected these accusations by his detractors: "All we are interested in here is opposing the advance of the Communists, and eventually destroying the whole Communist conspiracy, so that Jews and Christians alike, and Mohammedans and Buddhists, can again have a decent world in which to live."[49]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society
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It appears, by doing some 'googling' that I came across this article from 1967, when the ADL made the accusation against the JBS...
http://www.jta.org/1967/01/31/archive/adl-warned-of-anti-semitism-in-radical-right-john-birch-society
ADL Warned of Anti-semitism in ‘radical Right,’ John Birch Society
January 31, 1967
NEW YORK (Jan. 30)
America’s “radical right” has created “a huge patchwork blanket” of radio broadcasts, has made easier the recruitment of members by the John Birch Society, which “contributes to anti-Semitism,” and poses “the greatest danger” to the civil rights movement, the Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith was warned today.
The warning came from Benjamin R. Epstein, national director of the ADL, and Arnold Forster, the League’s general counsel. They presented a special report dealing with the radical right to the League’s national commissioners at the closing session of the ADL’s 54th annual meeting, which has been in session since Friday.
They accused the John Birch Society again of “contributing to anti-Semitism.” They noted that, last year, the ADL had exposed the “rantings and ravings” of the radical right, including the Birch Society. “Since then,” they said, “the Society has done nothing to solve the continuous problem. Instead, it has concentrated on attacking its critic, the ADL, rather than its critical problem, that of attracting anti-Semites to its ranks.”
RADIO BROADCASTS REPORTED BY EPSTEIN, FORSTER, BEAM BIGOTRY
The report declared that a “united front” attack on the civil rights movement as an alleged Communist conspiracy is being waged by right-wing extremism, led by the John Birch Society “which provides leadership, strategy and necessary tools.” According to the Epstein-Forster report:
More than 600 radio stations carry the Twentieth Century Reformation Hour, broadcast by the Rev. Carl McIntire, a New Jersey-based fundamentalist clergyman;
Some 400 stations broadcast commentaries by Clarence Manion, a member of the national council of the John Birch Society;
Almost 200 stations carry broadcasts by the Rev. Billy James Hargis, termed as “a fiery evangelist of both religious and political fundamentalism”;
More than 125 stations broadcast the speeches of another right-winger, Dan Smoot;
More than 150 stations broadcast the messages of the White Citizens Council;
Other stations beam the commentaries of Maj. Edgar C. Bundy, and of Richard Cotten. The report called the latter “an undisguised anti-Semite.”
The ADL leaders said they believed that, in the long run, “America will reject the Birch Society and its allies,” but voiced deep concern over the “hazy borderlines” between the radical right and “true conservatives.”
Should we be suspect because ADL is involved?
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Conspiracy groups typically have a lot of antisemetics that join, but why would the Rabbi agree to talk to playboy?
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Conspiracy groups typically have a lot of antisemetics that join, but why would the Rabbi agree to talk to playboy?
Hi LKZ,
The only reason I can think of is that Playboy had a very sophisticated 'reputation' back in the 60s and 70s. A lot of celebrities and political figures were interviewed. It may have allowed him to get his story out. A lot of men did read playboy back in those days. They would only 'read the articles' of course...
Look at this list of names of great celebrities of the 70s-80s who were interviewed @
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_in_Playboy_1970%E2%80%9379
The Kahane interview was published in the October of 1972 edition...
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Wikipedia says this:
Former Eisenhower cabinet member Ezra Taft Benson — a leading Mormon — spoke in favor of the John Birch Society, but in January 1963 the LDS church issued a statement distancing itself from the Society.[45] Antisemitic, racist, anti-Mormon, anti-Masonic, and various religious groups criticized the group's acceptance of Jews, non-whites, Masons, and Mormons. These opponents accused Welch of harboring feminist, ecumenical, and evolutionary ideas.[46][47][48] Welch rejected these accusations by his detractors: "All we are interested in here is opposing the advance of the Communists, and eventually destroying the whole Communist conspiracy, so that Jews and Christians alike, and Mohammedans and Buddhists, can again have a decent world in which to live."[49]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society
..... so, is the JBS a reputable organization? What people claim and actually do can be miles apart.
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drmg, I am not interested in the merit or non-merit of the JBS... I am interested in the mindset of the Rabbi at the time and what he was trying to accomplish by doing some of these apparently questionable things... I am sure there is a rational reason and I hope to learn it...
The wikipedia page contains this information about this story...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane#Becoming_Michael_King_and_Infiltrating_John_Birch_Society
Becoming Michael King and Infiltrating John Birch Society[edit]
At some time in the late 1950s, Mr. Kahane took on the persona of a non-religious individual, living a double life, shaving his beard and renamed himself Michael King.[26] Kahane became a demagogue at this point according to most accounts, and re-imagined himself as virulently and violently anti-Communist and anti-hippie. He created the 'July Fourth Movement' which targeted left wing groups on US college campuses across the US, financed by the US Government. During this period Mr. Kahane attempted to rekindle his Brooklyn College friendship with Joseph Churba which resulted in them co-authoring the text, 'The Jewish Stake in Vietnam' together, which was an attempt to convince American Jews of the 'evil of Communism'.[27] Kahane and Churba wrote "All Americans have a stake in this grim war against Communism.... it is vital that Jews realize the threat to their very survival [should Communism succeed]" from the introduction. Churba had a major falling out with Kahane over the use of para-militarism, and they permanently parted ways, he went on to pursue his own career, joining the US Air Force, writing many books on the Middle East, later becoming one of Ronald Reagan's consultants. Kahane chose a violent path, even attempting to acquire and grow biological weapons to use on a Soviet military installation[11] but failed. Following the failure to get FBI training in the use of biological weapons, and the suicide of his 'Michael King' persona's non-Jewish mistress, he began using the phrase 'Never Again'[28] (wrote a book with that title, a few years after his first article using that phrase appeared), also conceiving the Jewish Star and fist insignia, a similar symbol to the Black Panther party, though Kahane himself was against the Black Panther party due to anti-Jewish riots they has supported in Massachusetts as he saw it, and leftist leanings as he saw it.
In the late 1950s to early 1960s, Kahane's life of secrecy and strong anti-communist views landed him a position as a consultant with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). According to his wife Libby, his assignment was to infiltrate the anti-communist John Birch Society and report his findings back to the FBI.[21] As reported by Michael T. Kaufman in The New York Times[29] (and subsequently followed up by The Village Voice in the early 1980s), Kahane (under his pseudonym Michael King) allegedly had an affair with a non-Jewish woman, Gloria Jean D'Argenio.[30][31] In 1966, Kahane/King allegedly sent a letter to D'Argenio in which he unilaterally ended their relationship. According to Friedman, Kahane had proposed to D'Argenio, and two days before the wedding, admitted he was already married with children. In response, D'Argenio jumped off the Queensboro ("59th Street", "Ed Koch") Bridge; she died of her injuries the next day. According to Kaufman, Kahane admitted to him that "he loved Ms D'Argenio and had sent roses to her grave for months after her death." He also established a foundation which carried the name she used in her modeling career, Estelle Donna Evans. Ads for the foundation appeared weekly in the Jewish Press, although the group never filed legally required financial documents detailing what it did with the money it collected.[32]
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I don't think what rabbi Kahane did was bad although I'm not overly familiar with the john birch society, but sometimes infiltration and knowing your enemy by socially engineering them, you start to learn the ulterior motives and get a better stance on what is really going on.
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drmg, I am not interested in the merit or non-merit of the JBS... I am interested in the mindset of the Rabbi at the time and what he was trying to accomplish by doing some of these apparently questionable things... I am sure there is a rational reason and I hope to learn it...
The wikipedia page contains this information about this story...
It looks like this is a pretty well documented story, and Rabbe went in because he thought they were anti-Semitic. .. It also looks like Rabbe started to like and may of been influenced by the Birch society? It seems today the birch society is a Illuminati Jewish group by the Koch brothers who started the Tea Party. ..
I don't see a problem with the FBI thing, if the FBI asked me to go into the Aryan Nation, I would too. The woman thing is not good....
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I don't know where it is learned that he joined to investigate 'antisemitism'....
According to the wikipage and the interview he joined to investigate whether the right wing was engaging in radical extremism. I believe he reported that they did not... Also, why would the FBI be concerned about antisemitism in JBS? It makes no sense..
The story concerning the woman is very disturbing... I hope to learn more about what was involved with this..
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I don't see why it's "questionable." He infiltrated an antisemitic organization to help the FBI rein them in. Please explain what your rabbi finds objectionable about it. Iis it wrong to work for the FBI? I don't think so.
I'm also wondering, why shouldn't he do an interview with playboy magazine? He should only talk to perfectly righteous people and only spread his essential message to perfect tzaddikim? Why?
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And aside from the obvious reasons he took this job consider also what he learned from it. He knew the fbi's capabilities, precisely the manner in which it sends operatives to infiltrate organizations it's uncomfortable with, and he probably gained some inside sources/friends and political capital by working for them and doing then this favor, which would certainly come in handy later. Considering RabbiKahane and his JDL became a prime target of FBI monitoring and investigation diverting resources from fighting terror in order to shut him down (or try), this is another example of the Rav's great wisdom to anticipate future developments and prepare appropriately.
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I don't see why it's "questionable." He infiltrated an antisemitic organization to help the FBI rein them in. Please explain what your rabbi finds objectionable about it. Iis it wrong to work for the FBI? I don't think so.
I'm also wondering, why shouldn't he do an interview with playboy magazine? He should only talk to perfectly righteous people and only spread his essential message to perfect tzaddikim? Why?
But they weren't anti-Semitic, that was coming from the left.
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I don't see why it's "questionable." He infiltrated an antisemitic organization to help the FBI rein them in. Please explain what your rabbi finds objectionable about it. Iis it wrong to work for the FBI? I don't think so.
I'm also wondering, why shouldn't he do an interview with playboy magazine? He should only talk to perfectly righteous people and only spread his essential message to perfect tzaddikim? Why?
My rabbi knew nothing about this event... My friend brought it up in our conversation. He is a member of JBS...
Also, I have seen no evidence that JBS was antisemitic...
What is your opinion of his relationship with the woman? Was it necessary for the operation?
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And aside from the obvious reasons he took this job consider also what he learned from it. He knew the fbi's capabilities, precisely the manner in which it sends operatives to infiltrate organizations it's uncomfortable with, and he probably gained some inside sources/friends and political capital by working for them and doing then this favor, which would certainly come in handy later. Considering RabbiKahane and his JDL became a prime target of FBI monitoring and investigation diverting resources from fighting terror in order to shut him down (or try), this is another example of the Rav's great wisdom to anticipate future developments and prepare appropriately.
Just as likely is that FBI got to know the inner working and thinking of Rabbi Kahane.. It just is an odd story in light of the entire Kahane assassination and the WTC bombing in 1993...
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But they weren't anti-Semitic, that was coming from the left.
It is well known that they were. Just because the left said it doesn't make it automatically untrue. The left today also says al qaeda is bad and the right agrees. Or do you say al qaeda must be good since the left is against them? Didn't think so.
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It is well known that they were. Just because the left said it doesn't make it automatically untrue. The left today also says al qaeda is bad and the right agrees. Or do you say al qaeda must be good since the left is against them? Didn't think so.
I have a Jewish friend who is in JBS and he says that they are not antisemtic today... Also their website vehemently claims that it will not stand any antisemitism or racism...
http://www.jbs.org/about-jbs/myths-vs-facts
Myth: The JBS message is hate-filled.
Fact: There never has been any hate in our agenda and it will never be employed as a tactic. From the outset, membership in JBS has been strictly denied to haters and, should any member adopt a racist or anti-Semitic attitude or behavior, the membership of such a person will be permanently revoked.
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It is well known that they were. Just because the left said it doesn't make it automatically untrue. The left today also says al qaeda is bad and the right agrees. Or do you say al qaeda must be good since the left is against them? Didn't think so.
This was coming from leftists, left wing Jews (that supported Russian Communism), and Christian's that disagreed with anything other than their beliefs! And a Government that was dabbling in Communism...
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It is well known that they were. Just because the left said it doesn't make it automatically untrue. The left today also says al qaeda is bad and the right agrees. Or do you say al qaeda must be good since the left is against them? Didn't think so.
In most of the extreme leftist media 'Al Queda' is painted as a CIA created organization. They always try to minimize anything done wrong by these monsters. So too the leftists seem to have no problem putting al-queda's media 'Al Jazeea' on cable...
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I have a Jewish friend who is in JBS and he says that they are not antisemtic today... Also their website vehemently claims that it will not stand any antisemitism or racism...
Keyword TODAY.
Anyway, his job was to report what they were or weren't doing. If they weren't anti-semites (or whatever else the Rav had to work for) then they wouldn't have a problem.
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This was coming from leftists, left wing Jews (that supported Russian Communism), and Christian's that disagreed with anything other than their beliefs! And a Government that was dabbling in Communism...
Left wing Jews that supported Communism? What are you smoking lately. How many could these people be? I bet close to NONE. Jews in America did not support Communism. That is why they were in America and not in Russia under Communism. I don't get where you got this BS from?
+ For Rav Kahane ZTL HYD it was never about "left" vs. "right" he repeatedly said and wrote that its about safety and security for Jews and about Kiddush Hashem. Forget about left and right (if you want to understand his worldview). "Left" and "right" are just boxes people put themselves in.
Anyone to the left of you isn't an automatic Communist and anyone to the right of you isn't a Fascist.
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Left wing Jews that supported Communism? What are you smoking lately. How many could these people be? I bet close to NONE. Jews in America did not support Communism. That is why they were in America and not in Russia under Communism. I don't get where you got this BS from?
+ For Rav Kahane ZTL HYD it was never about "left" vs. "right" he repeatedly said and wrote that its about safety and security for Jews and about Kiddush Hashem. Forget about left and right (if you want to understand his worldview). "Left" and "right" are just boxes people put themselves in.
Anyone to the left of you isn't an automatic Communist and anyone to the right of you isn't a Fascist.
Soo, you're telling me no Jews in America supported Communism?
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SOROS!
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Soo, you're telling me no Jews in America supported Communism?
"This was coming from leftists, left wing Jews (that supported Russian Communism), and Christian's that disagreed with anything other than their beliefs! And a Government that was dabbling in Communism.."
That's what YOU wrote making it as if their was some group and conspiracy of Jews supporting Communism! That's an outright lie and usually propaganda by Jew haters. Any Jew (or many gentiles as well) even left-wing leaning isn't automatically a Communist.
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SOROS!
I don't know Soros, but he is a rich guy. I'm sure very Capitalistic with socially leftist. Loving to make and have money though and not wanting to "share it all".
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Soros is the king of the kapos brah.
Ephy, there are plenty of other sources showing antisemitism in the John Birch society of the time.
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Tag,
Weren't you aware that in the early 1900s there was a large Jewish communist movement in America?
This is one reason the Jews were subject to antisemitism from the Fords and the Disneys of this country... I don't know the specifics but it was once mentioned that in my family we had a communist. We did not talk much about it...
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http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history/Modern_History/1914-1948/American_Jewry_Between_the_Wars/Radical_Politics.shtml
Jews in Radical Politics
America's Communist movement owed a lot to Jewish support.
By Howard Sachar
The Depression accelerated a process of radicalization that had begun in the immediate aftermath of the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917.
In the early post-revolutionary years, a left wing sprang up with the American Socialist party, favoring affiliation with the Comintern [the international Communist movement]. When the radicals were defeated at the Socialist convention in 1919, they bolted and attached themselves to the Communists.
Among Jews, this element was always a minority, even within the extensive Jewish Socialist movement. But they were a hair-shirt minority. It happened that the early postwar immigration of East European Jews included many veterans of the Bolshevik Revolution and the Russian civil wars.
In the early 1920s, it was these militant newcomers who dramatically augmented the radicals' leadership. Their first and principal target was the large reservoir of Jews still laboring in the garment industry. Among the needle workers, the old flaming Socialist idealism had been fading steadily during the 1920s. At the same time, unwilling to risk union treasuries or their own salaries, officials of the International Ladies Garment Workers Union and the Amalgamated Clothing Workers had become perfunctory in their negotiations' with management. Their flaccidity in turn proved raw meat for the Communists. Dogmatic and fiery, the latter now hurled themselves into the effort to capture the ILGWU's and Amalgamated's central offices and committees....
Jewish Leadership
Yet, if the Communists evoked little support from American Jewry at large, the party leadership continued to include a disproportionate number of Jews. Among these were Jay Lovestone, Benjamin Gitlow, William Weinstone, Bertram D. Wolfe, and Israel Amster. Well before the Depression, too, Jews contributed a significant share of the Communist party's votes (although, again, this represented a distinct minority of all Jewish ballots cast). In the presidential elections of 1924 and 1928, about one-quarter of the 50,000 votes cast on both occasions for William Z. Foster, the Communist party's nominee, came from New York, and almost certainly most were cast by Jews.
In 1925, the 22,000 circulation of Freiheit, the journal of the Jewish Socialist (Communist) Federation, actually exceeded the Daily Worker's 17,000. The tight Jewish nucleus remained in place throughout the 1920s, despite the party's relentless opposition both to Judaism and to Zionism as "reactionary" influences. It was this group, too, that saw its best opportunity following the Wall Street crash.
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I have a Jewish friend who is in JBS and he says that they are not antisemtic today... Also their website vehemently claims that it will not stand any antisemitism or racism...
What's that have to do with the 1960's? Nothing.
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Just as likely is that FBI got to know the inner working and thinking of Rabbi Kahane..
This makes no sense.
They paid him to infiltrate the group so that they could get information on it and monitor its activities. It is highly likely that they trained him for that job giving him tips and protocols that the FBI recommends for infiltrators. They may have even provided him with equipment for such a job too. He undoubtedly learned the FBI's infiltration techniques and some of how they operate while also making contacts and friends within the FBI. Why is that negative?
In addition, due to his experience in this job, he could probably smell a rat/troll/infiltrator a mile away.
That you would assume the FBI somehow anticipated what groups the Rabbi would form and what activities he would do later on makes no sense to me except that you are trying to find something negative about this story. If they *really understood Rabbi Kahane, then the FBI would not have been investigating him for years later when he ran JDL.
It just is an odd story in light of the entire Kahane assassination and the WTC bombing in 1993...
Please elaborate, I'm not sure what you're getting at.
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This was coming from leftists, left wing Jews (that supported Russian Communism), and Christian's that disagreed with anything other than their beliefs! And a Government that was dabbling in Communism...
Again, there are many basic things that the left and right agree on. The fact that the left says something doesn't make it automatically wrong!
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drmg, I am not interested in the merit or non-merit of the JBS... I am interested in the mindset of the Rabbi at the time and what he was trying to accomplish by doing some of these apparently questionable things... I am sure there is a rational reason and I hope to learn it...
The wikipedia page contains this information about this story...
Sorry, I did not purposely try to change the subject... I was just wondering what my initial thought should be when / if I hear from them in the future. Basically can their ideas and views be trusted.
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drmg,
No problem... It is a good question.. As I said my initial impression was that JBS was antisemitic, but as I read more it appears that this may just have been accusations made by the left (and ADL which has traditionally been a leftist organization).
KWRBT,
What you are saying is just speculation. I was hoping to have an answer from someone who has actual experience with the situation. I am not trying to say anyone is speaking negative of the Rabbi, and as I said in many of my messages my Rabbi is very supportive of me and my Kahanist leanings. I am trying to come up with a good explanation of why it was in the best interest of Rabbi Kahane and JDL to infiltrate this organization.
In the playboy interview the Rabbi did not indicate that the issue was antisemitism but rather communism. I respect your opinion of what happened here, but I think I will have to ask Chaim on the AskJTF show for any more inside information...
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It is well known that they were. Just because the left said it doesn't make it automatically untrue. The left today also says al qaeda is bad and the right agrees. Or do you say al qaeda must be good since the left is against them? Didn't think so.
And then the left makes all kinds of excuses for al-Qaeda.
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Tag,
Weren't you aware that in the early 1900s there was a large Jewish communist movement in America?
This is one reason the Jews were subject to antisemitism from the Fords and the Disneys of this country... I don't know the specifics but it was once mentioned that in my family we had a communist. We did not talk much about it...
This was a BS excuse on their part. These beasts hated all Jews, period.
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This was a BS excuse on their part. These beasts hated all Jews, period.
I fully agree. Jew haters, as explained in the videos I posted in the Torah section recently, will find a reason to hate Jews no matter what, or to blame any problem in the world on us...
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drmg,
No problem... It is a good question.. As I said my initial impression was that JBS was antisemitic, but as I read more it appears that this may just have been accusations made by the left (and ADL which has traditionally been a leftist organization).
KWRBT,
What you are saying is just speculation. I was hoping to have an answer from someone who has actual experience with the situation. I am not trying to say anyone is speaking negative of the Rabbi, and as I said in many of my messages my Rabbi is very supportive of me and my Kahanist leanings. I am trying to come up with a good explanation of why it was in the best interest of Rabbi Kahane and JDL to infiltrate this organization.
In the playboy interview the Rabbi did not indicate that the issue was antisemitism but rather communism. I respect your opinion of what happened here, but I think I will have to ask Chaim on the AskJTF show for any more inside information...
Muman, I am going to try to answer your questions point by point.
1. The Rav explained why he did the playboy interview at the time. Long story short many secular Jews read playboy. Doing the interview allowed him to reach Jews who would otherwise never have heard his message.
2. About Gloria Jean D'Argenio, the woman who killed herself. It was a very sad story, but the truth is pretty simple. She was a woman who joined the Rav's Fourth of July movement. She was mentally ill and eventually killed herself. No evidence of the the supposed affair has ever been produced, despite many years of looking by the Rav's opponents. The author of the article claiming the affair Michael Kaufman was a long time opponent of the Rav's so any claims, particularly those he made with no evidence to back them up, are suspect.
3. A clarification, the Rav infiltrated the JBS before the JDL existed.
4. The Rav infiltrated the JBS to see if they were anti-Semitic, if you say they arent fine. But they had a reputation at the time.
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I fully agree. Jew haters, as explained in the videos I posted in the Torah section recently, will find a reason to hate Jews no matter what, or to blame any problem in the world on us...
The biggest NWOists/globalists are the uber-rich, i.e. the Fords, Disneys, Turners, etc. of the world. So their picking on Jews for alleged Marxism is utter hypocrisy.
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Thank you Kahaneloyalist.... I understand what you are saying...
So the reason he joined was to investigate antisemtism... It was not clear from the sources I have come across till now.
Also, regarding the woman... Indeed it is a sad chapter.. I can understand a mentally unbalanced gentile woman becoming attracted to the Rabbi, he was a good looking guy and he was strong in masculine way (and his ideology too)... I am glad that there was really no 'relationship' because that would be very difficult to explain.
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I believe you guy's if you say they were anti-Semitic, I wasn't alive then. They seem to be all over the place with their theories, and the theories against them, but how do we explain this...
http://www.jta.org/1966/02/18/archive/group-of-jewish-members-of-john-birch-society-form-organisation
Organisation
February 18, 1966
NEW YORK (Feb. 17)
Two Jews, who said they are members of the John Birch Society, announced here today that they are forming a new organization, called the Jewish Society of Americanist. The men are Samuel Blumenfeld an employe of the John Birch Society, in Boston; and Alan Stang, of New York, author of a book linking the civil rights movement with Communism.
They issued a statement of principles declaring that the society’s aim will be “to demonstrate to our fellow Americans and coreligionist that the Americanist principles, beliefs and aims of the John Birch Society are based on the very precepts of Judaism.”
At a news conference they said that, since an announcement two weeks ago in a Birch Society publication that the Jewish group would be formed, “several hundred” Jews around the country have endorsed the move. Mr. Stang, declaring the title of the society a “misnomer, ” said the group will admit not only non-Jews but also non-members of the John Birch Society.
Thomas J. Davis, public relations manager for Eastern United States of the John Birch Society, claimed there are 1,000 Jews in the USA among the society’s 100,000 members. Listed among the officers of the new group are Michael S. Kogan, chairman; Mr. Blunmenfeld, vice-chairman; and W.C. Solomon, executive secretary. None of them is known in Jewish public life
Read more: http://www.jta.org/1966/02/18/archive/group-of-jewish-members-of-john-birch-society-form-organisation#ixzz2v6INsydP
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For Tag...
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/10/07/video-exposing-occupy-wall-street-was-organized-from-day-one-by-seiu-acorn-front-the-working-family-party-and-how-they-all-tie-to-the-obama-administration-dnc-democratic-socialists-of-america/
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros
http://mobile.wnd.com/2014/03/soros-heavily-invested-in-ukraine-crisis/
http://o.dailycaller.com/all/2014-03-02-george-soros-and-obama-administration-fund-chicago-group-enrolling-prisoners-in-obamacare
http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/people/george-soros
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^He is also an atheist, if it doesn't say that in the wikipedia link.
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KWRBT,
What you are saying is just speculation. I was hoping to have an answer from someone who has actual experience with the situation. I am not trying to say anyone is speaking negative of the Rabbi, and as I said in many of my messages my Rabbi is very supportive of me and my Kahanist leanings. I am trying to come up with a good explanation of why it was in the best interest of Rabbi Kahane and JDL to infiltrate this organization.
As far as I know this was done pre JDL days. So it is speculation for anyone to suggest a motivation to his actions unless they personally asked him. However, it is self-evident that what he learned from this experience would come in handy in running the JDL (for reasons I already explained). Beyond that, it would seem to me there is no reason to seek some deep explanation of the reason he did this work (unless one thinks it's "questionable"). Do I need to deeply contemplate why you are a software engineer? It's your job, and presumably you like it. He worked for the fbi at that time as his job. Basic common sense would suggest he did it to get a paycheck and given the Rabbi's personality, he probably believed they were dangerous in the JHS and believed that the job he was doing helped protect the Jewish people. That's just kind of a common sense answer.
Now you are saying no one considered it negative, but didn't you call it "questionable" before? If so, I just don't see it that way.
You continue to dispute the antisemitism charges based on the fact that ADL said it but where is your proof they are the only ones? And why refuse to address the point that the ADL saying something doesn't necessarily make it incorrect. ADL today calls neonazis antisemitic. Would you disagree with them?
In the playboy interview the Rabbi did not indicate that the issue was antisemitism but rather communism. I respect your opinion of what happened here, but I think I will have to ask Chaim on the AskJTF show for any more inside information...
Then maybe it was more about communism than antisemitism. I know that he considered a communist takeover as dangerous to the Jews. Soviet union as obvious example at that time.
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"Now you are saying no one considered it negative, but didn't you call it "questionable" before? If so, I just don't see it that way."
I'm pretty sure he is referring to the gentile women, but the FBI thing is kinda weird. ..
You pick at the little things...
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"In the playboy interview the Rabbi did not indicate that the issue was antisemitism but rather communism. I respect your opinion of what happened here, but I think I will have to ask Chaim on the AskJTF show for any more inside information..."
I don't know how you got that... I got the impression he was saying they were over the top...
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I would also like to add Henry Ford was a sellout, and turned on his own for the Protocols of the Elders of Zion...
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"Now you are saying no one considered it negative, but didn't you call it "questionable" before? If so, I just don't see it that way."
I'm pretty sure he is referring to the gentile women, but the FBI thing is kinda weird. ..
You pick at the little things...
Huh? He called it all questionable as far as I know. Now are you saying the fbi thing is "weird?" I don't understand this point of view, how is it weird?
Iwasnt "picking" if you agree with me that at first he said it was questionable but now all of a sudden everyone is fine with it. From his initial post it sounded to me like his friends at chabad were bothered by the behavior. I just don't see anything wrong with it. (Likewise about the playboy interview).
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I would also like to add Henry Ford was a sellout, and turned on his own for the Protocols of the Elders of Zion...
WHAT?
:o
Are you aware that that book was a forgery written by antisemites for the purpose of spreading Jew hatred?
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WHAT?
:o
Are you aware that that book was a forgery written by antisemites for the purpose of spreading Jew hatred?
Yup, I knew exactly what I said! He believed the Russians and became an anti-Semite. ..
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Huh? He called it all questionable as far as I know. Now are you saying the fbi thing is "weird?" I don't understand this point of view, how is it weird?
Iwasnt "picking" if you agree with me that at first he said it was questionable but now all of a sudden everyone is fine with it. From his initial post it sounded to me like his friends at chabad were bothered by the behavior. I just don't see anything wrong with it. (Likewise about the playboy interview).
It does come off kinda weird... a Jewish rebel worked for the FBI. I don't have problem with it...
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Yup, I knew exactly what I said! He believed the Russians and became an anti-Semite. ..
I didn't quite understand what you meant the first time around. But do realize that ford was not Jewish so he didn't turn on "his own people." I also don't know how true it is that he was antiisenitic only because of the russian fraud because it was already exposed as a forgery at the time he personally published copies of it in his newspaper. And he continued to spout that nonsense for years.
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Btw ford is a great example. The ADL condemned his antisemitism. So does that mean (to you) that he was innocent?
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People, regarding the supposed mistress, Chaim has said in past Ask JTF shows that Rabbi Kahane *never* cheated on his wife. He also went on to say that the Rabbi was very handsome, and that he kept telling Chaim to keep the women away from him.
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It does come off kinda weird... a Jewish rebel worked for the FBI. I don't have problem with it...
I think people too easily forget that the FBI does good too! Not just govt persecution of innocents like the JDL of those days
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Btw ford is a great example. The ADL condemned his antisemitism. So does that mean (to you) that he was innocent?
No! But, from what I found there were Jews in the organization. And some accuse them of being Jews, and others say they are anti-Semitic. .. WTF?
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KWRBT,
I don't know why you consistently have a problem understanding simple things.
1) I never said anyone in my community said anything was wrong with what the rabbi did.
2) My rabbi is supportive and speaks only good of Rabbi Kahane.
Having said that, if you read my initial post again, you will learn that my friend who brought this issue up was concerned about it because he himself (A Jew) is a member of the John Birch Society. Of course if you are a member of an organization and you learn a great Jew has tried to infiltrate your organization you would obviously have some questions about it.
It was my hope that in this thread I could learn a little about the facts involved in this event. Your constant attempt to portray my position in a negative light sheds a lot more on your intentions than my own...
I have been working hard on spreading the message of Kahanism to my entire community.
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KWRBT,
I don't know why you consistently have a problem understanding simple things.
1) I never said anyone in my community said anything was wrong with what the rabbi did.
2) My rabbi is supportive and speaks only good of Rabbi Kahane.
Having said that, if you read my initial post again, you will learn that my friend who brought this issue up was concerned about it because he himself (A Jew) is a member of the John Birch Society. Of course if you are a member of an organization and you learn a great Jew has tried to infiltrate your organization you would obviously have some questions about it.
It was my hope that in this thread I could learn a little about the facts involved in this event. Your constant attempt to portray my position in a negative light sheds a lot more on your intentions than my own...
I have been working hard on spreading the message of Kahanism to my entire community.
I get you bro. I don't really have time to research them in depth though.
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KWRBT,
I don't know why you consistently have a problem understanding simple things.
1) I never said anyone in my community said anything was wrong with what the rabbi did.
2) My rabbi is supportive and speaks only good of Rabbi Kahane.
Having said that, if you read my initial post again, you will learn that my friend who brought this issue up was concerned about it because he himself (A Jew) is a member of the John Birch Society. Of course if you are a member of an organization and you learn a great Jew has tried to infiltrate your organization you would obviously have some questions about it.
It was my hope that in this thread I could learn a little about the facts involved in this event. Your constant attempt to portray my position in a negative light sheds a lot more on your intentions than my own...
I have been working hard on spreading the message of Kahanism to my entire community.
Baruch Hashem, it is wonderful you are trying to spread the teachings of the Rav.
Muman, did my earlier response answer your questions?
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Kahaneloyalist,
Yes indeed... I take your word that he was investigating whether the JBS was antisemitic... That was my primary concern because I want to be able to explain to my friend why Rabbi Kahane was involved in this. The other issues (the supposed relationship) was never discussed with my friend.