JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on August 17, 2007, 09:00:38 PM
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I was reflecting a bit on Vito's Ask JTF question for the week before this one, where he suggests that Finland, despite being allied with Germany, was not really an evil nation. Chaim, of course, pointed out that anybody who allied themselves with the Nazis at any point, and for any reason, was evil, and technically (and 99% of the time in practice) he is absolutely right.
However, I, like Chaim, attempt to be a student of history, and I think Finland's decision, albeit execrable, was not quite as wicked as those of other Axis allies.
--Finland, which had only gotten its independence from Russia in 1918, had, as Vito pointed out, had been subjected to a horrific onslaught by the Nazi Stalin and his infinite army at the beginning of WWII that was very comparable to the holocaust that the West waged against the heroic Serbs in this decade. As could be expected, the "noble", "heroic" Western Allies did absolutely nothing while this went on; they did about as much to help Finland as they did to save the Jews in the Holocaust. (Of course, both Roosevelt and Churchill [ys"vz to both of those devils] both considered themselves personal friends of Uncle Joe, much like today's "democratic" leaders worship the Saudi royals and the antichrist dictators of Red China.)
--Most of the lesser Axis countries (Romania, Latvia, Austria, etc.) joined because they clearly agreed with Nazi ideology and/or wanted to partake in the Germans' spoils of war from the small countries they plundered. With the understanding that this is still no excuse, neither was true of Finland.
--Finland's behavior was relatively clean for Scandinavia: Norway was an outright Nazi puppet, and Sweden supplied the Nazis with raw materials till the very last day of the war.
--Finland's treatment of its Jews was cleaner than that of pretty much any European country but G-dly Serbia (then Yugoslavia). Finland had no camps whatsoever except for POW camps for Soviet soldiers, who were not savagely tortured and murdered the way Nazi Russian POWs were.
--Even today, the noble Serbs, or rather their socialist government, (zt"l) maintains strong alliances with the Russian Hitler Vladimir Putin (ys"vz) and even some Muslim Nazi countries (how idiotically!). Like Finland's alliance with Germany, Yugoslavia's alliance with Russia has certainly not helped her much.
If you all disagree with me, this is no big deal. Chaim is certainly right that Finland's choice was evil and without any justification. I just wanted to have an interesting discussion on an obscure footnote of history.
Chaimfan
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I agree with you, Finland did not sent the jews to the Nazi's hands, they allied with the Nazis bacause they were enemies with USSR .
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Also, remember that even though Japan was technically allied with the Nazis, they did take in some Jews from Europe. The nazis wrote them a letter, which can be seen in the Holocaust museum saying "How can you do such a thing? Those Jews will take over your country, etc." The Japanse replied that those were the kinds of people they wanted, and so they took in some more Jews.
On the other hand, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, so I don't know if that was the best ananlogy.
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The Japanese WERE Nazis though. They were enthusiastic supporters of Hitler and they copied exactly his master-race doctrines. They believed they were the supreme Asian race and that Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. were inferior and subhuman just like the Germans thought the Slavs were. (Don't forget what they did to American POWs.) >:(
I don't buy it either that they took in Jews, at least very many. I have no doubt that the Tojo's soldiers would have enthusiastically rounded up Jews and sent them to Auschwitz if they shared a front line with Europe.
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C.F:
Thanks for understanding my outlook on it. I understand that it was an evil choice to align themselves with Nazis.. but the Finns REFUSED to give their Jews to the Nazis, and really didn't help Germany at all during the war in any way. Which is why I don't consider them Nazis. The Finns were actually very devout Christians pre-WWII, and they had all felt that G-d was the only reason why they beat the Russians. So to go from that type of people.. to being Nazis doesn't make sense.. and you can see by their actions during their alignment that that clearly wasn't the case.
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I agree totally with you. I can see how Chaim is still very upset with them (the Finns), but there are legitimate "gray cases" in life and this is perhaps the best example of one.
Of course today, Finland is just another Scanditrash country that merits no sympathy whatsoever.
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Sweden and Switzerland in the other hand, were true Nazis, even if they claim they were neutral in the WWII .
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I agree totally with you. I can see how Chaim is still very upset with them (the Finns), but there are legitimate "gray cases" in life and this is perhaps the best example of one.
Of course today, Finland is just another Scanditrash country that merits no sympathy whatsoever.
Oh I completely agree, most Finns of today are vehemently anti-Christian, Satan worshiping, homosexual loving, Muslim/African embracing pigs. I have born-again Christian friends from Finland, who are such a small minority of people.. there are almost no Christians left in Finland, they want to move to the U.S because of the great loss of faith in Finland.
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I agree totally with you. I can see how Chaim is still very upset with them (the Finns), but there are legitimate "gray cases" in life and this is perhaps the best example of one.
Of course today, Finland is just another Scanditrash country that merits no sympathy whatsoever.
Oh I completely agree, most Finns of today are vehemently anti-Christian, Satan worshiping, homosexual loving, Muslim/African embracing pigs. I have born-again Christian friends from Finland, who are such a small minority of people.. there are almost no Christians left in Finland, they want to move to the U.S because of the great loss of faith in Finland.
I ghess it's because what the communism did .
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I agree totally with you. I can see how Chaim is still very upset with them (the Finns), but there are legitimate "gray cases" in life and this is perhaps the best example of one.
Of course today, Finland is just another Scanditrash country that merits no sympathy whatsoever.
Oh I completely agree, most Finns of today are vehemently anti-Christian, Satan worshiping, homosexual loving, Muslim/African embracing pigs. I have born-again Christian friends from Finland, who are such a small minority of people.. there are almost no Christians left in Finland, they want to move to the U.S because of the great loss of faith in Finland.
I ghess it's because what the communism did .
Finland was never under communism, although they are a socialist state.. basically the same thing.
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I agree totally with you. I can see how Chaim is still very upset with them (the Finns), but there are legitimate "gray cases" in life and this is perhaps the best example of one.
Of course today, Finland is just another Scanditrash country that merits no sympathy whatsoever.
Oh I completely agree, most Finns of today are vehemently anti-Christian, Satan worshiping, homosexual loving, Muslim/African embracing pigs. I have born-again Christian friends from Finland, who are such a small minority of people.. there are almost no Christians left in Finland, they want to move to the U.S because of the great loss of faith in Finland.
I ghess it's because what the communism did .
Finland was never under communism, although they are a socialist state.. basically the same thing.
I didn't say it was, I meant that the communism, although it wasn't the ragime of Finland, did have a major effect on the Finnishes, espacielly in the religous aspect .
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Sweden and Switzerland in the other hand, were true Nazis, even if they claim they were neutral in the WWII .
Absolutely.
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I don't really think it came from communism, I think that it came from the same secular-humanist self-deification that plagued the rest of Scandinavia (and Europe).
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I don't really think it came from communism, I think that it came from the same secular-humanist self-deification that plagued the rest of Scandinavia (and Europe).
Europeans aren't interested in moral absolutes or G_d. They're more interested in sodomy and scheiser movies....the sick SOBs!
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finland had Jews in the finnish army during ww2
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I don't think the Finnish people were Nazis, and I think they were in a tough situation. Either decision you make has a drawback. This isn't to say its "good" but I do think they viewed the nazis as the lesser evil. I don't think they liked the nazis.
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I heard that Finland refused to deport its Jews.
True they even served in the Finnish army
http://www.uta.fi/~tuulikki.vuonokari/fin-1.html
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Even though the Finns didn't want to export the jews to their deaths if the Nazis had won the war the jews in Finland would have been killed anyway.... just a tactic by Finland unfortunately and as Chaim said...
You cannot align yourself with the devil otherwise you are as bad as the Nazis