JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chaim Ben Pesach on February 17, 2015, 07:33:15 AM
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בס''ד
In front of the Israeli Supreme Court today, Itamar Ben Gvir, Baruch Marzel's attorney, said the following:
"He has changed. The Kach movement doesn't exist, he isn't against all Arabs. Marzel already says today that Kahane's views are not his views, Marzel has changed."
Ben Gvir even removed the title of "Rabbi" from Rabbi Meir Kahane zt"l in his remarks, calling him only "Kahane". Would Ben Gvir and Marzel remove the title of "Rabbi" from Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and call him "Yosef"? Never, because that would offend Marzel's new Shasnik allies.
It is not something new that Marzel says he is not a Kahanist and now opposes Rabbi Kahane's views. In 2003, the first time he ran for the Knesset, Marzel said that he had changed and now even favors giving the Arabs "affirmative action" benefits.
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Do you think he means it or is just telling a lie?
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Sounds to me like he sold out!!!
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Shameful. What a disgrace.
If he does not agree with the views of RABBI Kahane, then what reason would anyone have for voting for him?
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Disgusting.
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"He has changed. The Kach movement doesn't exist, he isn't against all Arabs. Marzel already says today that Kahane's views are not his views, Marzel has changed."
Rabbi Kahane wasn't against all Arabs. Rabbi Kahane, just like JTF, believed that anyone is capable of being righteous if they choose to be. So Rabbi Kahane was not against the few Arabs that don't believe in real Islam and don't hate all Jews. But righteous Arabs are even more rare than righteous blacks. It was their choice to not be righteous.
Marzel could have said he only hates Arabs that hate Jews and hate Israel. That includes most of the Arabs and is a way to get around Bolshevik rules.
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Rabbi Kahane wasn't against all Arabs. Rabbi Kahane, just like JTF, believed that anyone is capable of being righteous if they choose to be. So Rabbi Kahane was not against the few Arabs that don't believe in real Islam and don't hate all Jews. But righteous Arabs are even more rare than righteous blacks. It was their choice to not be righteous.
Marzel could have said he only hates Arabs that hate Jews and hate Israel. That includes most of the Arabs and is a way to get around Bolshevik rules.
That's part of what is amazing about this. He not only disrespects the rabbi by attempting with his speech to rescind his rabbinic appellation, but he also slanders the rabbi adopting by the left's lies and slander to ascribe false views to Rabbi Kahane. He is feeding the Peace Machine industry by adopting the left's dishonest rhetoric to mislead people into false conclusions.
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Rabbi Kahane wasn't against all Arabs. Rabbi Kahane, just like JTF, believed that anyone is capable of being righteous if they choose to be. So Rabbi Kahane was not against the few Arabs that don't believe in real Islam and don't hate all Jews. But righteous Arabs are even more rare than righteous blacks. It was their choice to not be righteous.
Marzel could have said he only hates Arabs that hate Jews and hate Israel. That includes most of the Arabs and is a way to get around Bolshevik rules.
Judaism doesn't say that gentiles cannot live in Israel. Only pagans and any gentile who doesn't give tribute nor servitude for the Jewish state have to leave. And that's what Rabbi Kahane believed in. What percentage of non Jews would give tribute and servitude? A very small percentage, like some Druze and some Arabs and some miscellaneous.
As far as Marzel is concerned, very disappointed, but not surprised. You can't sell your soul for a cause. There is no merit in it.
And to lie about it, if he lied, I don't think rabbi kahane would have approved.
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Judaism doesn't say that gentiles cannot live in Israel. Only pagans and any gentile who doesn't give tribute nor servitude for the Jewish state have to leave. And that's what Rabbi Kahane believed in. What percentage of non Jews would give tribute and servitude? A very small percentage, like some Druze and some Arabs and some miscellaneous.
As far as Marzel is concerned, very disappointed, but not surprised. You can't sell your soul for a cause. There is no merit in it.
And to lie about it, if he lied, I don't think rabbi kahane would have approved.
Perhaps he sugar coated it a bit but I do no think that either the rabbi or his son Binyamin would approve nor would they join with likes of Eli Yishai & Yoni Chetboun.
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Shalom Chaim
Can you post a link Hebrew or English of these quotes by Ben Gvir and Marzel? I want to check the sources because some individuals in the court didn't hear either of them rejecting or disrespecting Rabbi Kahane.
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The following is a response from Barbara Ginsburg who was present at the hearing:
"I heard all that (what Chaim quoted earlier on the post). The Kach movement does not exist. as Itamr Ben-Gvir said ' I was in Kach, so what? Why speak about a movement that does not exist? Rabbi Kahane was not against all Arabs.'"
"He gave them 3 choices as Joshua did:1 Leave the land 2. stay with servitude (Rabbi Kahane said not the right to vote, but human rights) 3. If you don't leave and continue to stay as enemies, we will throw you out. You cannot lift a hand to a Jew or out you go. Rabbi Kahane views are Baruch views all the way down the line. The court gave statements Marzel made many years ago and he said, he changed (meaning the same, but in different language) An example: Arab enemies, instead of Arabs."
" Yes, Ben-Gvir said 'Kahane' at times. He was hit with so many questions that it made my head spin, so he said 'Kahane'. No one disclaimed Rabbi Kahane. don't be fooled by what you think went on in the courthouse."
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she added the following comment:
Barbara Ginsberg: "Daniel, I have to clarify one thing. Rabbi Kahane, may G-d avenge his blood, said different things about the Arabs at different times."
"We all know that he wanted them out; we all know that he called them dogs. But, at times he said he wants "collective punishment" because the majority are our enemies. And yet, he spoke about the 3 choices."
He also said that he doesn't want Arabs killed daily, but more than that he loves Jews doesn't want Jews killed daily and that will be if they stay. We will have a worse situation than northern Ireland."
" And then the book that he wrote "Throw Them Out!" That is what I mean when I said Baruch said he changed. As we all know and the Left and Arabs know he didn't change. So, give him a chance to prove it."
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I find Barbara Ginsburg's apologetics disappointing. First of all, in all that she elaborated about Rabbi Kahane's views, nothing that I see there is inconsistent at all, but she framed it as Rabbi Kahane having inconsistent views (and thus attempting to whitewash Marzel's embrace of the left, as if he took the more moderate path within the rabbi's thought system, but that is not true and that is not even what ben gvir claimed).
Secondly, the quote Chaim supplied is a direct quote of ben gvir who is Marzel's errand boy and lawyer. Is she suggesting gvir's statements don't accurately reflect Marzel's views? That would be against his job description. Either way, gvir did say these things.
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You know I give Mr Marzel some benefit of the doubt (even though I know the history here). As I often say, and I have come to firmly believe, that in a world where politics is the game it is extremely (I mean EXTREMELY) important to be able to play the 'Lie' game. All politicians lie, some lie in a more believable manner than others, but they all are expected to lie. Those on the Right will lie when asked about some of their more controversial ideas, so too the left lies when their ideas are outside the 'concensus position' on the topic.
I believe Marzel has made many statements which support the view that he supports many of Rabbi Kahanes ideas. Only since his involvement with the current election process (where he has been virtually singled out for being excluded from the lists) has his so-called shift in position occurred. At this time I don't think he really has changed his position and he is just saying this to remain viable in any coalition government which may be formed.
Maybe I don't know what I am talking about concerning Israeli politics. But my understanding of politics in general is pretty good.
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בס''ד
Barbara Ginsburg is a good and honorable Jew. She desperately wants to believe Marzel and I understand her. But she was in the court and heard all of these things said. If she chooses to rationalize it, that is her choice. I happen to disagree with what Marzel and Ben Gvir are doing, but I respect people like Barbara who want to see things differently.
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בס''ד
We are not here to start a fight with Marzel. I simply disagree with what he is doing. I think it's a mistake. But many of his supporters, including Barbara Ginsburg, are very good Jews.
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Gosh I love jtf. So much sanity here.
Thank you for your response chaim
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בס''ד
We are not here to start a fight with Marzel. I simply disagree with what he is doing. I think it's a mistake. But many of his supporters, including Barbara Ginsburg, are very good Jews.
I happen to agree with you,however there is nobody better at this time.
Rabbi Moshe Parry also agrees with you on this.
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I happen to agree with you,however there is nobody better at this time.
Rabbi Moshe Parry also agrees with you on this.
It is good to see Rabbi Parry is remaining involved. I met him a number of times.
Here is his message from last year Purim:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2FMqxcuHBY