JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dr. Dan on March 22, 2015, 09:03:36 AM
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So sad.
And all over a hot plate.
Mother and elder daughter are in critical condition.
Blessed Gd judge of everything.
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There should at least be a lawsuit. A hot plate shouldn't spontaneously combust just because it is left on.
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It was a large house with one fire detector.
The shuls of the community should also speak of Fire safety in their homes.
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So sad.
And all over a hot plate.
Mother and elder daughter are in critical condition.
Blessed Gd judge of everything.
How did the plate "malfunction" and how did the electrical fire come about? Was this literally a hot plate? Or was it a blech? I really hope people will go into details so that we can all learn how to stay as safe as possible. From what it sounds I think Brennan fan is right that this should not happen and must be a product malfunction.
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The story is very sad... People need to take care when using appliances like that... It's important to be sure what it's put on can take the heat during prolonged use... Items like this are produced in China now days and many don't have the UL approval which most had years back that meant that the appliance has passed some level of safety tests... When buying things like this it may even pay buying something made for commercial use since it should be made to stay on for extended periods of time.
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בס''ד
Baruch dayan haemet.
What a sad story.
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It's a little late to ask this for the show. Can you talk about the universe Hashem created in loo of what happened?
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:usa+israel: :fist:
This is an unbelievably heartbreaking tragedy, Zichronam Livracha
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I read on the ny post that they made Aliya to the United states a year and a half ago from the har nof neighborhood in Jerusalem.
Why did they leave israel?
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The reason the hot plate was even used was because they didn't want to use the actual oven on the sabbath.
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The reason the hot plate was even used was because they didn't want to use the actual oven on the sabbath.
Nearly a million people do that every Sabbath and this does not happen. What is your point?
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I read on the ny post that they made Aliya to the United states a year and a half ago from the har nof neighborhood in Jerusalem.
Why did they leave israel?
You mean yeridah, not aliyah.
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My thoughts and prayers go out to the family of his horrific tragedy.
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You mean yeridah, not aliyah.
I was going to say that when I read the statement. Aliyah means immigration into Israel, not leaving it.
We know the halacha, but is it worth discussing at the expense of lashon hara?
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Baruch Dayen HaEmet...
How sad this happens... I hope they find out what happened. We use hot-plates at our shul to keep things warm during Shabbat. Hopefully it was just an accidental defect and not a systematic problem.
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I was going to say that when I read the statement. Aliyah means immigration into Israel, not leaving it.
We know the halacha, but is it worth discussing at the expense of lashon hara?
I think he's just stating a fact that Dr Dan made a typo.
Leaving Israel is called yeridah. (There are sometimes valid reasons for it. No one should speculate about an individual case as there is no reason to).
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I think he's just stating a fact that Dr Dan made a typo.
Leaving Israel is called yeridah. (There are sometimes valid reasons for it. No one should speculate about an individual case as there is no reason to).
Never heard of the word yeridah. I guess that is the correct term.
My intention is not to judge or draw conclusions. Indeed to call their deaths a tragedy is an understatement. Gd acts mysteriously and this terrible thing which happened reminds me of the story of joav.
I only pity the kind and for me to say, "oh they left israel for mid wood and Gd punished them," would be a cruel thing to say. Never be cruel to the kind.
However with few exceptions, to leave israel for the galut when one doesn't have to, is a tragedy in itself.
I do not judge the sasson family.
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Aliyah means ascend or going up. We say someone "makes aliyah" to Israel because it is considered a rise in status to go from outside the land of Israel to inside.
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They temporarily left Israel "back" to the exile (where they came from) because they were/are building a home in Israel. For the time being they moved to Brooklyn because of the process and they needed to live somewhere for the time being.
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Nearly a million people do that every Sabbath and this does not happen. What is your point?
My point is that all sects of Judism should move into the 21st century and stop clinging to these ideals.
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My point is that all sects of Judism should move into the 21st century and stop clinging to these ideals.
We have a Torah which tells us to do the opposite. Should we follow God or should we follow you? I choose God.
Thousands and thousands of Jews every week leave hot plates and ovens on in order to observe the Sabbath and have hot food and this never happens. You are blaming the victims of a freak accident and for what? To pump up your pathetic ego and justify your own spurning of Judaism which you choose to do? How sick and twisted.
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My point is that all sects of Judism should move into the 21st century and stop clinging to these ideals.
This is coming from the guy that cursed Moses. He made a comment similar to Tina Greco who said Moses should have had a GPS so he wouldn't get lost in the desert for 40 years. The text of the Torah specifically says it was a punishment to wander in the desert. If the stupid Bible critics want to debate the Bible, comments like that prove that they are illiterate. How can they try to "prove" their point if it goes against the logical way of debating?
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This is coming from the guy that cursed Moses. He made a comment similar to Tina Greco who said Moses should have had a GPS so he wouldn't get lost in the desert for 40 years. The text of the Torah specifically says it was a punishment to wander in the desert. If the stupid Bible critics want to debate the Bible, comments like that prove that they are illiterate. How can they try to "prove" their point if it goes against the logical way of debating?
Well, he didn't actually curse Moses he only said that he wasn't too smart (an idiot) for wandering the desert for 40 years... Honestly the old issue should not have even bought up again because it was only after I and then another female member called him on it and told him it wasn't right to speak about Moses like that did the overall outcry against it start up... Sadly after all the years I can't recall the female member's name who was so put off by the post she actually left the forum... Her leaving was a big loss to the forum... I think the bigger problem here is the fact that most people might not actually know why Moses wandered the desert and see it as being comical by today's standards... Whatever the case I don't think Joe trying to cause trouble but is only stating an opinion as he sees things.
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If joe gutfeld were dropped in the middle of the sinai without God, he wouldn't wander for 40 years, but would die.
So much for idiots. This one is a fool.
If you want so called updated Judaism, go follow reform and conservative gay lesbian trsnsexusl rabbis who will excuse eating ham and cheese with matza at the Seder and shrimp bisque on Yom kippur.
Joe gutfeld, I recommend you read "beyond a reasonable doubt" by rabbi shmuel waldman before you post on this forum again. And it's an easy read.
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Well, he didn't actually curse Moses he only said that he wasn't too smart (an idiot) for wandering the desert for 40 years... Honestly the old issue should not have even bought up again because it was only after I and then another female member called him on it and told him it wasn't right to speak about Moses like that did the overall outcry against it start up... Sadly after all the years I can't recall the female member's name who was so put off by the post she actually left the forum... Her leaving was a big loss to the forum... I think the bigger problem here is the fact that most people might not actually know why Moses wandered the desert and see it as being comical by today's standards... Whatever the case I don't think Joe trying to cause trouble but is only stating an opinion as he sees things.
Stating that all Jews should discard Judaism (and for completely illogical "reasons") is not a valid "opinion" to share here. It is obvious Joe is trying to self-justify his own ignorance and laziness by asserting that other Jews should be like him.
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Well, he didn't actually curse Moses he only said that he wasn't too smart (an idiot) for wandering the desert for 40 years... Honestly the old issue should not have even bought up again because it was only after I and then another female member called him on it and told him it wasn't right to speak about Moses like that did the overall outcry against it start up... Sadly after all the years I can't recall the female member's name who was so put off by the post she actually left the forum... Her leaving was a big loss to the forum... I think the bigger problem here is the fact that most people might not actually know why Moses wandered the desert and see it as being comical by today's standards... Whatever the case I don't think Joe trying to cause trouble but is only stating an opinion as he sees things.
Also the point is not that he is "causing trouble" but that he said something stupid and insensitive about a tragedy.
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This is coming from the guy that cursed Moses. He made a comment similar to Tina Greco who said Moses should have had a GPS so he wouldn't get lost in the desert for 40 years. The text of the Torah specifically says it was a punishment to wander in the desert. If the stupid Bible critics want to debate the Bible, comments like that prove that they are illiterate. How can they try to "prove" their point if it goes against the logical way of debating?
Binyamin, I don't think you are the correct person to bring up past wrongdoings by old members on this forum.
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Also the point is not that he is "causing trouble" but that he said something stupid and insensitive about a tragedy.
I don't disagree with that. I'm not sure that he meant to be cruel but it is what it is.
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If joe gutfeld were dropped in the middle of the sinai without God, he wouldn't wander for 40 years, but would die.
So much for idiots. This one is a fool.
If you want so called updated Judaism, go follow reform and conservative gay lesbian trsnsexusl rabbis who will excuse eating ham and cheese with matza at the Seder and shrimp bisque on Yom kippur.
Joe gutfeld, I recommend you read "beyond a reasonable doubt" by rabbi shmuel waldman before you post on this forum again. And it's an easy read.
Good post. :laugh: :::D :laugh:
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We have a Torah which tells us to do the opposite. Should we follow God or should we follow you? I choose God.
Thousands and thousands of Jews every week leave hot plates and ovens on in order to observe the Sabbath and have hot food and this never happens. You are blaming the victims of a freak accident and for what? To pump up your pathetic ego and justify your own spurning of Judaism which you choose to do? How sick and twisted.
Good response.
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Well, he didn't actually curse Moses he only said that he wasn't too smart (an idiot) for wandering the desert for 40 years... Honestly the old issue should not have even bought up again because it was only after I and then another female member called him on it and told him it wasn't right to speak about Moses like that did the overall outcry against it start up... Sadly after all the years I can't recall the female member's name who was so put off by the post she actually left the forum... Her leaving was a big loss to the forum... I think the bigger problem here is the fact that most people might not actually know why Moses wandered the desert and see it as being comical by today's standards... Whatever the case I don't think Joe trying to cause trouble but is only stating an opinion as he sees things.
Well, yeah, that was a really stupid post but someone leaving the forum is on them, not the member who made the "offensive" comment. If she left over this, that says all we need to know about her loyalty to JTF. Tell me, did Joe insult this unnamed female member's mother or something like that, or did she just not like his idiotic opinion about Moses? If the latter, I have no sympathy for her, it's a world out there and if we started abandoning all institutions that occasionally feature stupid opinions, then we'd all have to be hermits shut out of society. If the former, I still don't have that much sympathy. She could have told him to jump in a lake and then ignored him. She should grow a little skin, or something else.
I'm not sure if you're thinking of Yephora or not. I know some people at JTF worshiped the ground she walked on but I'm not one of them. I recall her being a very self-hating woman who was constantly sucking up to the misogynist trolls Adam613 and Scriabin. We don't need people like that here at JTF anyway. We are proud people who have values and convictions, not spineless, gutless worms that side with our enemies.
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Well, he didn't actually curse Moses he only said that he wasn't too smart (an idiot) for wandering the desert for 40 years... Honestly the old issue should not have even bought up again because it was only after I and then another female member called him on it and told him it wasn't right to speak about Moses like that did the overall outcry against it start up... Sadly after all the years I can't recall the female member's name who was so put off by the post she actually left the forum... Her leaving was a big loss to the forum... I think the bigger problem here is the fact that most people might not actually know why Moses wandered the desert and see it as being comical by today's standards... Whatever the case I don't think Joe trying to cause trouble but is only stating an opinion as he sees things. Thank you Cjd for defending me. They are bringing up a post I made 7 or 8 years ago. I was banned for five years for another comment I made. Not that one. Only people here disagree with me when I made a comment disagreing on an old dated ideals made in our religon. Like not watching tv or listen to the radio on the sabbath or on holidays. Did they have tv or radio during Moses' time? No, I don't think so.
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I disagreed with you and it has nothing to do with anything you wrote 7 years ago. You are advocating throwing the Torah into the trash bin. Moses would have responded like he did following the sin of the golden calf. Don't you think? Or did you never read about that episode like you've never read anything else that's in the Torah? Your ignorance is embarrassing. All you can do is trash something you never bothered to read.
There was a gas explosion that blew up 3 buildings in NYC and killed 2 people the other day. Maybe secular Jews like you and your enlightened non-Jewish friends need to give up on the ideal of gas heating in houses and apartments and go back to building fires out of sticks to keep warm to avoid such tragedies. See how stupid that logic is? Not as bad as the logic you employed.
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Well, he didn't actually curse Moses he only said that he wasn't too smart (an idiot) for wandering the desert for 40 years... Honestly the old issue should not have even bought up again because it was only after I and then another female member called him on it and told him it wasn't right to speak about Moses like that did the overall outcry against it start up... Sadly after all the years I can't recall the female member's name who was so put off by the post she actually left the forum... Her leaving was a big loss to the forum... I think the bigger problem here is the fact that most people might not actually know why Moses wandered the desert and see it as being comical by today's standards... Whatever the case I don't think Joe trying to cause trouble but is only stating an opinion as he sees things.
You mean Yephora. I remember seeing an old post that said Fruit of Thy Loins was responsible for her leaving but it turns out it was Joe Gutfeld's post about Moses.
Bringing up the post about Moses is very much related to what Joe Gutfeld said now. Moses received the Torah on Mount Sinai. He received both the Written and Oral Torah. This is the same Torah which forbids cooking on Shabbat and turning on switches. If he believed in G-d and His Torah as revealed to His servant Moses, he wouldn't make such remarks in the first place.
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Well, yeah, that was a really stupid post but someone leaving the forum is on them, not the member who made the "offensive" comment. If she left over this, that says all we need to know about her loyalty to JTF. Tell me, did Joe insult this unnamed female member's mother or something like that, or did she just not like his idiotic opinion about Moses? If the latter, I have no sympathy for her, it's a world out there and if we started abandoning all institutions that occasionally feature stupid opinions, then we'd all have to be hermits shut out of society. If the former, I still don't have that much sympathy. She could have told him to jump in a lake and then ignored him. She should grow a little skin, or something else.
I'm not sure if you're thinking of Yephora or not. I know some people at JTF worshiped the ground she walked on but I'm not one of them. I recall her being a very self-hating woman who was constantly sucking up to the misogynist trolls Adam613 and Scriabin. We don't need people like that here at JTF anyway. We are proud people who have values and convictions, not spineless, gutless worms that side with our enemies.
There is more to Jewish life than JTF. There was Judaism before JTF. Moses didn't need JTF. Just because someone would rather not post on JTF does not make them a traitor or a self-hating Jew. There are many religious Jews who once posted here but don't do so anymore. They have not made comments against Moses. If everyone was righteous, there wouldn't need to be a JTF anyway. There was Kahanism before there was JTF and there was Judaism before Rabbi Kahane. Also, there was the Torah even before the World was created. No one worshipped the ground any female member walked on. Such comments even if made as a joke are serious accusations of idolatry.
There is no comparing any ex-members who left because of internal disagreements or disputes with someone who curses the whole Torah. Doing the latter is the same as cursing G-d.
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Here is what CJD wrote about the issue back then. This was after the thread was old and Joe Gutfeld brought up the old thread.
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,2618.msg101200.html#msg101200
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Except kahanism is Judaism. There is nothing different to what rabbi kahane taught to what halakha is.
There is more to Jewish life than JTF. There was Judaism before JTF. Moses didn't need JTF. Just because someone would rather not post on JTF does not make them a traitor or a self-hating Jew. There are many religious Jews who once posted here but don't do so anymore. They have not made comments against Moses. If everyone was righteous, there wouldn't need to be a JTF anyway. There was Kahanism before there was JTF and there was Judaism before Rabbi Kahane. Also, there was the Torah even before the World was created. No one worshipped the ground any female member walked on. Such comments even if made as a joke are serious accusations of idolatry.
There is no comparing any ex-members who left because of internal disagreements or disputes with someone who curses the whole Torah. Doing the latter is the same as cursing G-d.
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Except kahanism is Judaism. There is nothing different to what rabbi kahane taught to what halakha is.
I agree. That's why we shouldn't curse other Jews or other Kahanists unless they are self-hating traitors. There have been people in the forum cursing rabbis and even other Kahanists.
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There is more to Jewish life than JTF. There was Judaism before JTF. Moses didn't need JTF. Just because someone would rather not post on JTF does not make them a traitor or a self-hating Jew. There are many religious Jews who once posted here but don't do so anymore. They have not made comments against Moses. If everyone was righteous, there wouldn't need to be a JTF anyway. There was Kahanism before there was JTF and there was Judaism before Rabbi Kahane. Also, there was the Torah even before the World was created. No one worshipped the ground any female member walked on. Such comments even if made as a joke are serious accusations of idolatry.
There is no comparing any ex-members who left because of internal disagreements or disputes with someone who curses the whole Torah. Doing the latter is the same as cursing G-d.
This sounds an awful lot like you're saying that JTF is no big deal in the world, in which case all I have to say is bye, don't let the door hit your tuchis on the way out.
Once more, you're not the correct person to be throwing people's old behavior in their faces. That doesn't mean Joe Gutfeld's comments were okay (I did not defend them, and if you think I did, I think you need to reread my posts). But you can't put Yephora leaving on him. I don't care if Joe Gutfeld said "Heil Hitler! Praise Allah!", her leaving the forum would be on her and not on Joe Gutfeld, FOTL, or anyone else. As far as I am concerned, a woman who gets along with/is admired by people like Scriabin the white nationalist and Adam613 the psychotic, Muslim-like misogynist is no different from a Jew who gets along with/is admired by people like David Duke and Pat Buchanan (like [censored] Silverstein). I have no use for either and neither should anyone at JTF.
I agree. That's why we shouldn't curse other Jews or other Kahanists unless they are self-hating traitors. There have been people in the forum cursing rabbis and even other Kahanists.
I don't know if you are addressing me or not but show me where I curse other rabbis and other Kahanists. Are you thinking of Shlomo Aviner? The "rabbi" who has publicly declared war on settlers who resist the government? Are you saying JTF should support individuals like that?
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I would like to know what my post 8 years ago about Moses has to do with what I wrote about this family losing 7 kids because of an old dated "tradition" of not using an oven to cook or warm up dinner on the sabbath? I'm tired of these rules. When Israel was attacked in 1973 on yom kipper, my father went to shul for the service with a newspaper with the yom kippur war on the front page. A man there blasted my father for bringing a newspaper to shul for yom kippur. My father responded with, "you know that Israel is being attacked?" The man couldn't believe it. Then the Rabbi found out about it, and mentioned it to all the people there and asked for everyone to pray for Israel. That is why I can't stand these "traditions" for the holidays and the sabbath. I do hope that you can understand and respect my point of view. That's it. I'm not going to defend my self on my Moses post anymore. I'm tired of this post being rubbed in my face during this time of the year.
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I would like to know what my post 8 years ago about Moses has to do with what I wrote about this family losing 7 kids because of an old dated "tradition" of not using an oven to cook or warm up dinner on the sabbath? I'm tired of these rules. When Israel was attacked in 1973 on yom kipper, my father went to shul for the service with a newspaper with the yom kippur war on the front page. A man there blasted my father for bringing a newspaper to shul for yom kippur. My father responded with, "you know that Israel is being attacked?" The man couldn't believe it. Then the Rabbi found out about it, and mentioned it to all the people there and asked for everyone to pray for Israel. That is why I can't stand these "traditions" for the holidays and the sabbath. I do hope that you can understand and respect my point of view. That's it. I'm not going to defend my self on my Moses post anymore. I'm tired of this post being rubbed in my face during this time of the year.
This time of year? Moses is more than just the man who led the Jews out of Egypt. He also received the Torah on Mount Sinai on Shavuot 7 weeks later. The majority of the Torah takes place during the life of Moses.
What you said about Moses has everything to do with what you say. The above quotes proves it. You also write "tradition" in regards to the laws of Shabbat. It is not a tradition but rather a commandment handed to the Jews by G-d on Mount Sinai through Moses. Eating gefilte fish is a tradition. People who abstain from eating gebrokts on Passover are practicing their tradition. Keeping Shabbat is a commandment, not just some "old dated tradition" as you put it. Abstaining from chametz is a commandment.
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I don't know if you are addressing me or not but show me where I curse other rabbis and other Kahanists. Are you thinking of Shlomo Aviner? The "rabbi" who has publicly declared war on settlers who resist the government? Are you saying JTF should support individuals like that?
You have attacked rabbis many times. For example, you have said many things against Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef. As much as Chaim doesn't like the Shas Party, he made it clear that people shouldn't attack rabbis on the forum with the type of insults that some have made about him. We can disagree without cursing Gedolei HaTorah.
In regards to Yephora, CJD said it. I didn't say it. I just repeated what he said and provided a link.
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Instead of focusing on a stupid comment from 8 years ago, we should focus on the stupid comments made in this very thread. By dragging up old baggage, you are allowing the perpetrator to draw attention away from his faulty logic and allowing him to pretend he's a victim.
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You have attacked rabbis many times. For example, you have said many things against Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef. As much as Chaim doesn't like the Shas Party, he made it clear that people shouldn't attack rabbis on the forum with the type of insults that some have made about him. We can disagree without cursing Gedolei HaTorah.
In regards to Yephora, CJD said it. I didn't say it. I just repeated what he said and provided a link.
That was about seven or eight years ago. Chaim corrected me on that and I stopped. Is this the way you always operate Binyamin--throwing old misbehaviors in everyone's faces? Should I do that too?
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Joe here seems very confused. If Joe is Jewish I would recommend that he study or learn something before making stupid statements. To say it is a 'old tradition' to cook with hot-plates is just plain ignorant. It is especially ignorant if said by a Jew who should know better.
Jewish law, Halacha, is derived primarily from the written Torah with many explanations coming from the Oral law. When it comes to 'Cooking on Shabbat' the TORAH clearly forbids 'Lighting a fire' on the Sabbath. In order to be able to cook we need to light the flame (or turn on the crock-pot) before Shabbat starts, so we can have warm meals during the day. It is not a tradition, it is a TORAH law. Second, the 39 Melachot (forbidden labors) are not open to debate... They are clearly derived from the Written law of the Torah (the 39 forbidden works are the very works required to build the Mishkan/Tabernacle). There is no mystery about what these forbidden labors are, nor is there any debate on whether they are forbidden (except by the non-Torah observant Jews who make up their own religion).
Joe, please do some investigation before writing. If you have questions about the topic of forbidden labor on Shabbat, go ahead and ask here, or find a good Orthodox rabbi and ask him.
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http://www.chabad.org/blogs/blog_cdo/aid/855169/jewish/VAYAKHEL-PEKUDEI-Kindling-Fire-on-the-Sabbath.htm
Joel Cohen's Question:
After stating clearly that the Sabbath is a day of rest, that on that day work is prohibited at penalty of death, the Torah's very next sentence adds a separate command: "You shall not kindle fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day" (Exodus 35:1-3). Presumably, when the prohibition came into being kindling fire was "work." Starting a fire was not as simple as flipping a lighter today.
The Sabbath is a day of restful enjoyment (menuchah). Why, then, have the rabbis gone so far out of their way to undermine that enjoyment by expanding the fire kindling bar? Their bar includes so many things that are not "fire" in the traditional sense and which don't involve any form of work. For example, turning on an air conditioner to better enjoy the Sabbath on a brutally hot day; turning on a CD player to listen to a Torah class to comply with the command of learning Torah; or pressing an elevator button to go the 20th floor for Sabbath dinner, rather than engage in the cardio torture incurred in climbing 19 flights.
Given that the air conditioner, the CD player and elevator don't require "work," and certainly weren't considered as "fire kindling" by Moses when the Oral Tradition began, why does barring them make any sense today? Was that what the Torah intended when Moses received it from G‑d?
Rabbi Adam Mintz Responds:
Joel, this week you have addressed the basis of the principle of "Rest on Shabbat" and how that same principle that was introduced in the desert over three thousand years ago is still relevant today. It is a gigantic topic and I will try to discuss some of the basic ideas. The translation of melachah (the term used by the Torah to describe the activities proscribed on Shabbat) as "work" is overly simplistic. This week's Torah reading is actually the basis for the derivation of the 39 types of activity that are forbidden on Shabbat. The Talmud comments on the juxtaposition of the laws of Shabbat and the description of the building of the Tabernacle at the beginning of the reading. It derives that the reason that these two seemingly unrelated laws are written next to one another is to teach that the 39 categories of work that were used in the building of the Tabernacle are the same 39 categories of work that are forbidden on Shabbat.
Now, for the harder question of how we can apply these ancient categories to the modern world. You mention the relationship of the prohibition against kindling to electricity. Actually, at the beginning of the twentieth century when electricity began to be used in private homes, the question of its permissibility on Shabbat was discussed. Could you turn on a light switch? Is it really "work"—as you asked? The early authorities believed that electricity was prohibited based on the verse prohibiting kindling. However, as the understanding of how electricity evolved, the rabbinic authorities realized that electricity is not really the same as lighting a fire. Rather, they identified it with the prohibition of "completing the job," and explained that turning on a light switch is completing the circuit which allows the light to go on.
This issue, not surprisingly, is still being discussed today. Can one send email on Friday afternoon to someone in Israel where it is already Shabbat? Can you leave your computer on to be able to check the news or the sports or maybe even your emails on Shabbat? The answers are often matters of dispute between rabbinic authorities. However, they all point to the fact that the laws at the beginning of this week's Torah reading are still very much alive.
Rabbi Eli Popack Responds:
When G‑d announced, "Thou shall not steal," the people of the time undoubtedly understood stealing to mean reaching for your friend's wallet and taking his money, or entering his home and taking his food and clothing. Ponzi schemes and pirated software were definitely not what they thought of, yet today this "thievery" is on all of our minds. Would our litigator say that Madoff did not "steal"?
Point being, even if electricity doesn't seem to be fire in the conventional sense, this does not necessarily mean that it is not included in the prohibition.
Nonetheless, I believe that the other prohibition involved in electricity, namely, effecting the completion of a new object by closing the circuit, captures the essence of the melachot forbidden on Shabbat.
The Hebrew language has two words for "work"—avodah and melachah. Avodah is a general term meaning work, while melachah has a very precise halachic meaning. On Shabbat, melachah is prohibited.
The Torah specifically mentions two melachot, kindling a fire and carrying in a public domain. The Mishnah further explains that 39 different categories of melachah went into building the Tabernacle. While these categories of labor refer to the construction of the Tabernacle, they actually encompass all forms of human productivity. These melachot are not a haphazard collection of activities, and do not necessarily represent physical exertion—as is evident from the prohibition of carrying in the public domain. Rather, the principle behind them is that they represent constructive, creative effort, demonstrating man's mastery over nature. This is where completing an object by closing the circuit comes in.
Here's the punch line: Refraining from melachah on Shabbat signals our recognition that, despite our human creative abilities, G‑d is the ultimate Creator and Master.
At first glance, the numerous laws and their many nuances would seem to present a hindrance to Oneg Shabbat—enjoying and delighting in Shabbat. However, the unique way in which we pursue ordinary activities on Shabbat actually serves as a constant reminder of the special nature of this day.
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Joe here seems very confused. If Joe is Jewish I would recommend that he study or learn something before making stupid statements. To say it is a 'old tradition' to cook with hot-plates is just plain ignorant. It is especially ignorant if said by a Jew who should know better.
Jewish law, Halacha, is derived primarily from the written Torah with many explanations coming from the Oral law. When it comes to 'Cooking on Shabbat' the TORAH clearly forbids 'Lighting a fire' on the Sabbath. In order to be able to cook we need to light the flame (or turn on the crock-pot) before Shabbat starts, so we can have warm meals during the day. It is not a tradition, it is a TORAH law. Second, the 39 Melachot (forbidden labors) are not open to debate... They are clearly derived from the Written law of the Torah (the 39 forbidden works are the very works required to build the Mishkan/Tabernacle). There is no mystery about what these forbidden labors are, nor is there any debate on whether they are forbidden (except by the non-Torah observant Jews who make up their own religion).
Joe, please do some investigation before writing. If you have questions about the topic of forbidden labor on Shabbat, go ahead and ask here, or find a good Orthodox rabbi and ask him.
You may have confused him. No cooking is allowed on Shabbat. It is true that you can leave something on a crock pot to cook overnight if you put it on before candle lighting. But it is forbidden to cook on a hot plate left on. On Yom Tov, you can cook on a hot plate left on. On Shabbat you may only put solid cooked foods on a hot plate to reheat them which is not considered cooking according to Halacha. Putting any cold liquid on a hot plate and warming it up is consisdred cooking and is forbidden by Torah Law.
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I am in no position to comment on the halacha. What I can comment on is that a cooking device is not supposed to spontaneously start a fire just because it is left on. If it is in proper functioning order it should be able to stay on at full power infinitely (or as long as the power supply lasts).
This was a defective product. It should result in a lawsuit. If it becomes clear that the product is defective because of deliberately shoddy workmanship to cut corners for price, then the manufacturers should be charged with at the very least seven counts of negligent homicide.
THIS is the issue here, not allegedly backwards Jews not being in the 21st century.
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You may have confused him. No cooking is allowed on Shabbat. It is true that you can leave something on a crock pot to cook overnight if you put it on before candle lighting. But it is forbidden to cook on a hot plate left on. On Yom Tov, you can cook on a hot plate left on. On Shabbat you may only put solid cooked foods on a hot plate to reheat them which is not considered cooking according to Halacha. Putting any cold liquid on a hot plate and warming it up is consisdred cooking and is forbidden by Torah Law.
True.
For Joe:
Judaism is a framework in which the rabbinic scholars understand the laws as detailed in the Talmud and understand how to apply those same laws to the present situation in whatever current technological state we are in. That involves understanding the principles of Jewish law as well as understanding the principles of the technology in question, where applicable. All of these laws came from the Torah itself and were explicated and understood deeply in the Talmud. It is not sects and breakoffs which follow it. That is the framework of Jewish religion. If one does not accept this framework, they do not accept Jewishness or Jewish religion, period. The one who rejects this framework, as the illegitimate breakoff "sect" known as reform has done, simply does not practice Judaism and cuts himself off from the Torah. The Torah never says anywhere that we can discard its laws and cease being Jewish.
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I am in no position to comment on the halacha. What I can comment on is that a cooking device is not supposed to spontaneously start a fire just because it is left on. If it is in proper functioning order it should be able to stay on at full power infinitely (or as long as the power supply lasts).
This was a defective product. It should result in a lawsuit. If it becomes clear that the product is defective because of deliberately shoddy workmanship to cut corners for price, then the manufacturers should be charged with at the very least seven counts of negligent homicide.
THIS is the issue here, not allegedly backwards Jews not being in the 21st century
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Precisely.
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I am sorry I wasn't clear that 'Cooking' is prohibited. The meal must be cooked prior to the onset of Shabbat, but it can be kept warm with the hot-plate or crock-pot...
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For more in-depth description of the pertinent Halacha's concerning food preparation the Chabad site contains the following overview...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/95914/jewish/Food-Preparation-on-Shabbat.htm
Included among the thirty-nine melachot are several related to food preparation. In addition to the prohibition against cooking in any form, on Shabbat we are also prohibited from squeezing fruit, selecting, kneading, grinding and mashing. Electrical appliances may not be turned on or off on Shabbat.
Our Shabbat menus reflect our adherence to these various laws. Many traditional Shabbat foods have their origins in the Shabbat laws, including cholent, a warm dish which has been cooked prior to Shabbat, and gefilte fish, which has had all bones removed during its preparation.
Even though cooking boiling, roasting, frying and baking are prohibited on Shabbat, and we may not kindle or extinguish a flame, whether for cooking or any other purpose, there are permissible ways to serve warm food on Shabbat. In fact, it is a mitzvah to eat warm food during the Shabbat lunch. This can be accomplished by keeping food hot on a special covering placed over the stove, as explained below. A gas or electric oven regulated by a thermostat should not be used on Shabbat, since opening and closing the oven door may affect the flame or electricity.
The "Shabbat Stove" - Setting up the Blech
It is permissible to keep food warm on a gas flame or electric burner which has been turned on before Shabbat, as long as the source of heat is covered. This is usually done by covering the stovetop with a thin sheet of aluminum referred to as a blech (Yiddish for "tin"). It is preferable for the blech also to cover the control knobs for those burners which it covers, to prevent one from adjusting the flame on Shabbat.
A blech usually covers two to four burners, of which one or two are left on. If, for example, one wishes to place two pots of food on the blech, it is wise to leave only one burner on. The entire blech will become hot, but the area directly over the burner will be hottest.
When setting up the blech, it is best to use a low flame (or flames) so as not to burn the food. Food can be kept hot effectively even with a low flame.
From a health standpoint, be sure that food kept on the blech for more than an hour remains hot, not lukewarm, to prevent spoilage.
Food placed on the blech for Shabbat must be at least one-third or preferably one-half cooked. All salt, spices and liquid must be added before Shabbat begins.
Keeping Food Warm on the Blech: On Shabbat it is permissible to rearrange those pots which sit directly on the blech, under the following conditions:
* the food is completely cooked;
* the part of the blech on which the pot sits is hot to the touch;
* the food has not cooled down to room temperature.
Warming Cold Food: On Shabbat, one may not place cold wet food, even when fully cooked, into a pot on the blech. However, one may place cold food (such as chicken or kugel) near the fire but not on the blech to take the chill off, as long as it could never become hot (over 113° F) in that spot.
Removing Food from the Blech: One may not serve food directly from a pot on the blech. The pot must first be removed from the blech.
Replacing Pots on the Blech: After removing a pot or kettle from the blech to serve from it, one may replace it on the blech only if all of the following conditions are met:
* When the pot was removed, the intention was to put it back;
* The food is fully cooked;
* The food has not completely cooled off and is still slightly warm;
* The food has not been transferred to another pot;
* One holds the pot handle until replacing the pot on the blech. It is preferable not to put the pot down. If necessary, the pot may be placed on a table or any dry place except the floor, as long as one continues to hold the pot.
The Use of a Crock-Pot: The laws concerning the use of a crock-pot resemble those concerning the blech. The cholent stew, whether it is cooked first in a regular pot and then transferred to a crock-pot, or cooked only in the crockpot, should be at least half cooked before Shabbat begins, and the temperature knob should be covered with aluminum foil.
The crockpot must have a removable bowl, which should be taken out before serving, just as a pot is removed from the blech.
In order to return the bowl to the crock-pot on Shabbat, foil or some other material must be placed between the removable serving bowl and the heating element before Shabbat (to serve as a blech). The same rules apply as explained above in Replacing Pots on the Blech, .
Adding to Hot Foods and Liquids
When a hot food or liquid is removed from the blech, nothing may be added to it in the pot until it is transferred to another cup or bowl. In most cases it must be put into a third vessel, such as when adding salt, tea, croutons, etc. to soup or liquid. In addition, if the food from the blech is solid, such as chicken or thick cholent, it should also be allowed to cool down before adding anything to it in a third vessel.
Preparing Hot Beverages: If one wishes to prepare tea, coffee, or other hot drinks, one should set up, before Shabbat, either a kettle of boiled water on the blech or a Rabbinic-approved electric urn .
One may not pour the hot water from the kettle directly onto an uncooked solid or liquid, since this would be considered cooking. Coffee, tea, and cocoa fall into this category. Therefore, to make tea or coffee on Shabbat, use the following method:
* pour the hot water from the kettle into a clean, dry cup;
* pour the water from this cup into another cup; and
* then add teabag, tea essence, coffee, sugar or milk. If using a teabag, do not squeeze it.
* If using a teabag, do not remove the bag from the drink.
Some authorities recommend that instead of using teabags, a special concentrated "tea essence" be prepared before Shabbat. One cup of tea essence is prepared by allowing six teabags to steep in a cup of boiling water. Use one tablespoon of this concentrate to make a cup of tea.
Other Laws Pertaining to Food Preparation
On Shabbat we are not permitted to squeeze fruit, select, knead, grind, mash, grate, chop, shred, or cut very finely. This applies in many different ways, and one should be aware of these prohibitions whenever preparing food on Shabbat. The following are just a few practical examples:
Salads must be made immediately before mealtime, and the pieces should not be cut too small.
When mashing foods such as banana or avocado, one should vary the usual weekday method, and do it right before eating. For example, mash with the handle of a utensil instead of a spoon or fork. Vegetables or fruits that have been cooked can be mashed in the usual way.
Fruits such as lemons, oranges and grapefruits may not be squeezed for their juice. They may, however, be squeezed directly onto solid foods such as vegetables, salad, or cake, to enhance their flavor.
Borer: On Shabbat it is forbidden to separate or sort out two or more types of items which are mixed together. This melachah is called borer, which means "selection." Selection may be done under the following conditions:
Select that which you wish to use from that which you do not wish to use. For example, if a bowl contains both desirable and undesirable fruit, select the desired ones and leave the rest. Do not pick out the pieces of fruit you don't want. An easy phrase reminds us of the correct way: choose "good" from "bad," not "bad" from "good."
The selection should take place only by hand, not by instrument.
That which is being selected should be for immediate use.
When preparing eggs, fruits or vegetables which have inedible shells or peels, these may be removed on Shabbat immediately before the meal, but not with an instrument especially made for that purpose, such as a peeler. A knife, however, may be used. Some authorities permit the use of a peeler if the peel is edible, as is the case of apples and carrots.
Preparing Food for Children: On Shabbat, there are special ways to prepare formula, warm bottles, mix cereals or mash food for babies or children. Consult one or more of the guides to Shabbat observance available in English or an Orthodox Rabbi.
NOTE: The above melachot on food preparation also affect other activities in addition to those directly involving food. Examples are wiping spills with a sponge, playing with modeling clay, mopping, or sorting broken or unwanted articles such as dishes, chairs or clothing.
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Just eat it cold wussies! ;D As for Joe...we know he is behind in Torah, let's cut him a little slack.