JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lubab on July 12, 2015, 11:10:43 PM
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Ok guys. I missed you all. Some will hate me for this post. That's ok. I left the forum a long time ago and I think it was clear at the time to people I was beginning to espouse a world view very different from JTF and hence the split.
My views on Israell elieve it or not are still up for grabs. But some of the information I've run across in my travels has me leaning very far to the left. And I'm going to just share a few points as to what that is all about and I would like to be corrected if I am wrong. But I've seen quite a few right wingers lose debates on youtube on these particular points.
Point #1
I do feedings to the needy overseas. Non Jews. And we teach the Noahide laws. When I survey the world I can't help but see that there is a huge humaniterian crisis in Gaza. These are the Arabs you hate. And the Arabs who hate you.
As a Jew doing Noahide work I do not judge people on their beliefs. We simply feed those who need feeding and the beliefs will hopefully come around later just like Avaraham Avinus used to do. Eat first, even if you are worshiping idols we'll talk religion later.
Therefore I would like to, and plan to help with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Little kids need water. We'll give it to them. i think you all know it's bad over there. I think you also all know that the vast majority of people killed in these conflicts and hurt by these conflicts are NOT in uniform and NOT interested in fighting. Yet they suffer. And to my eyes, that's human suffering and we always should help human suffering whether the human hates us or not that's irrelevant to me. Will they hate Jews MORE if a Jew gives their children water?
We shall see. But from prior experiences in other countries, although it's must harder to reach them, even the Muslims build an appreciation.
Point #2
Is Israel really in so much danger?
When I was with JTF I believed that israel is in great danger. they are surrounded by enemies from all sides who want to push them into the sea, and have said they wanted to do so. And tried to do so several times.
With more reading and viewing I started to see this from a different perspective.
One certain fact we can all agree on. Is Israel is more powerful than it lets on.
It was ILLEGAL to talk about the fact that Israel had nukes for decades.
they have the nukes. they have one of the best militaries. one of the best intelligence agenices. I've dealt now for a while with intellence agents and I asked, and was told by all of them, that Israel has the capability to wipe out all the terrorist groups in a day....
They are extremely powerful. and in a way maybe more powerful than the US because for some really hard to understand reason the USA is giving FOREIGN AID. I Israel. We're feeding dying kids in India. And money is going for Israel who already has a good militatry for an even better one.
Israel has more power than it lets on. and doesn't USE the power. and that's the problem
in reality with the arabs that they call palestinains..in gaza...they actually are more like david and we are more like goliath. that's at a practical level between those two parties
as to the other arab countries....Israel...behidn the scenes i believe has them covered very well. some in the state deparment have said that even during the wars, even they they wanted blood..israel's survival was no where near as stake.
because like i said. if they want to. they can kick serous arse.
it's just that they dont' want to. and i think that can be traced back to sick minded people in the governent and people BEHIND the government who actually LIKE the fighting and want to keep it going.
and then
point #3
is what they call the "occupation". the source of the conflict
i have heard people say...that their grandfathers have said....that before the Jews started coming over.
the indiginous jews and the indiginous arabs used to be like brothers and babysit each other's kids.
what if that's true people? can you disprove it?
we don't want to face it . but it is a fact. i'm not talknig about the state. i'm talking about the whole movement of jews into the land starting from the 1910s...when it started the vast vast majorty of the people in the region were arabs and not jews.
and they did have some stores and houses and land . and those houses and stores were taken away and destoryed. appparently Hebrew U is build on a former arab settlment.
there's an organinzation built just to try to stop bulldozing of arab homes because it went on a lot them and goes on a lot now.
so maybe the lefties have a point. when the new jews came. that's when the conflits started if you take someones' land maybe that breeds a lot of hate that wsn't there before.
i bet if you and i had started israel we would not have bred such resenmtne. but i believe the same sick minded people in charge now were in charge then and did everything in a sick antagonistic way.
i personally now belive it may be a waste of time to focus on left and right and the knesset if big corrupt evil families like the rothchilds are going to keep doing things in such a sick way.
i don't blame any regular jews for the mistreatment or creating humanitnirea crisis. i blame i belive a few people at the top (perez is a mason btw)
anyway. go ahead and attack and where i'm wrong i'm happy to be shown i'm wrong.
Why would a country HIDE its power so much?
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[censored] YOU >:( You feel more for your fellow idol-worshippers than the Jewish nation!
Sure, let the Arabs bomb Israel after all Israel is much stronger then them so that makes it ookay!!!
And about your so-called teaching "Noahide laws", stop with the [censored]. You are just missionizing and trying to get the acceptance of others. Xtianity part 2 !!!
- Avraham also went to war against the 4 Kings because they captured Lot. He went to war and killed them when necessary because they were part of the "Israel" (or the pre-Israel family of Hebrews) and it was his duty to go to war to protect his brothers!
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"so maybe the lefties have a point. when the new jews came. that's when the conflits started if you take someones' land maybe that breeds a lot of hate that wsn't there before. "
No they don't. Their was Arab/Muslim persecution of Jews throughout the ages. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Muhammed killed Jews in the Arabian peninsula. You can claim that large Jews returning to Eress Yisrael in some ways reignited their hatred of Jews, but that is only because of their jealousy and FEAR of Jews returning back, taking over the land, rebuilding the Beit Hamikdash- the ULTIMATE KIDDUSH HASHEM. They FEAR that because that makes their whole claim of Islam replacing the "old religions" false. Judaism is back and alive and the Prophecies returning. Of-course that rekindles their hatred motivated from FEAR and from Envy. Israel is strong, smart, successful. They are stupid, backward, uneducated and full of hatred and envy.
You wish to perpetuate the Hillul Hashem and Jews being downtrodden at the mercy of our enemies. Just look at what happened in history to Jews and in fact look at what is happened right now to minorities under Arab control!
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Also about your claim of the ones dyeing "not being in uniform". That is [censored] as well. Either way it doesn't even matter. If you claim to be "Leshem shemayim" and as if they are innocent then why did they elect Hamas? Why their polls show they support the murder of Jews? Their government is evil, it is against us and they all have the din of Rodfim. Just like the Germans during WW2 and Amalek and the Egyptians at the sea (even the righteous among them drowned) and the town(or city) of Schehem they are all responsible because they are in a state of war with us.
+ If you teach the Noahide laws or even knew them you would know that they have to make courts and bring the guilty to trial. The Arabs in Gaza do not. In fact the even encourage them and support them ad are in a state of war against Israel. They do deserve to get what they want to do to us.
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May allah bless you.
Just curious, in #1, do the Arabs like you more now that you are giving them water?
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http://www.quora.com/What-were-Arab-Jewish-relations-like-in-Palestine-before-1948
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Lubab,
You are too smart for your own good. Really. That's not an insult, but a statement of fact.
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So Lubab, how *should* the modern state of Israel have ben created?
Do you still consider yourself a zionist?
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Lubab when one deals with outreach and teshuva he still has an obligation, even if he is like Avraham Avinu, not to distort the Torah, especially on Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel).
excerpt from http://www.vilnagaon.org/book/yosef.htm
As a proof that G-d does not endorse "Land for Peace", I will quote a translation of the words of the Rashbam on the verses in the book of Genesis. There Rashbam explains what brought G-d to command Avraham (Abraham) to bind Yitzchak (Isaac) for a burnt offering. [ Just before Avraham was about to slaughter his son Yitzchak, he received a command to offer a ram as a burnt offering on the Temple Mount, in place of his son. ]
Now here are the words of the Rashbam (to Genesis 22:1):
(1) Vayhi ahar ha-d'varim ha'elle - And it came to pass after these events:
Wherever the phrase ahar ha-d'varim ha'elle is found, the context is linked to whatever comes before it. "After these events" where Avram killed the kings, The Holy One Blessed be He, said to him: "Do not fear, Avram".
"And it came to pass after these events" when Yitzhak was born, Avraham was told etc. that Betu'el fathered Rivka.
Similarly, "after these events" where Mordechai informed on Bigtan and Teresh, King Ahashverosh raised up Haman who wanted to have Mordechai put to death, but the fact that Mordechai had saved the king's life helped him here, and it was Haman who was hanged. Here, too, after the events when Avraham concluded a pact with Avimelech, obligating the descendants of both men, and gave him seven lambs [as a token of the pact], the Almighty was angry with Avraham for doing so, for behold, the land of the P'lishtim (Philistines) had already been given to Avraham; and also in (the book of) Yehoshua (Joshua), lots were used to divide the cities of the five P'lishtim leaders, being included within the boundaries of the land of Israel and the Holy One Blessed be He commanded, regarding them, do not not let even a single soul survive. Then the L-rd put Avraham to the test, harassed him and caused him sorrow, as is written: "has He tested you with suffering you are unable to remain silent" (Job 4:3, Rashbam to Gen. 19:11 ); " and for their having tested G-d[Hashem]" (Exod. 17:7); Massa - trial - um'riva -and argument (also Exodus 17:7); "examine me, O G-d[Hashem], and test me" (Ps. 26:2).
In other words: "You became haughty because of the son I have given you - to conclude a pact between you and between their children.
Now go and offer him up as a burnt-offering, and see what will come of your pact!"
And afterwards I have found something similar in the midrash of Sh'muel:
"And the ark of Hashem remained in the land of the P'lishtim for seven months". It was written [concerning Avraham's oath]: "Take from my hand the seven lambs".
The Holy One Blessed be He said to him: "You gave him seven lambs?
[I swear] by your life, his descendants will wage seven wars against your descendants and defeat them".
Another interpretation: "By your life, his descendants will put to death seven righteous men of your descendants, viz., Shimshon (Samson), Hofni, Pinchas, Shaul (Saul), and his three sons".
An alternative interpretation: "By your life, his descendants will destroy seven Temple Sanctuaries, namely: the tent of Meeting, Gilgal, Nov, and Shilo; Giv'on and the two permanent Temples [of Jerusalem]."
Yet another interpretation: "[By your life], the Ark will be passed back and forth amongst the P'lishtim for seven months."
Rashbam concludes what does the Hebrew word "Nissa" in Genesis 22:1 connotate. He answers, harassed (namely, that G-d harassed Avraham after the Peace Treaty with Avimelech).
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I suggest you talk to a mashpia pronto.
Liberalism flies in the face of Judaism
I am all for teaching the 7 Mitzvos Bnai Noach but charity starts at home & your own comes first.
There is no mitzvah to aid in any way those that want to kill & maim you.
I suggest that you should talk to one of the Zirkind brothers or to one of the Shem Tovs they can straighten your sorry ass out!!!
Ok guys. I missed you all. Some will hate me for this post. That's ok. I left the forum a long time ago and I think it was clear at the time to people I was beginning to espouse a world view very different from JTF and hence the split.
My views on Israell elieve it or not are still up for grabs. But some of the information I've run across in my travels has me leaning very far to the left. And I'm going to just share a few points as to what that is all about and I would like to be corrected if I am wrong. But I've seen quite a few right wingers lose debates on youtube on these particular points.
Point #1
I do feedings to the needy overseas. Non Jews. And we teach the Noahide laws. When I survey the world I can't help but see that there is a huge humaniterian crisis in Gaza. These are the Arabs you hate. And the Arabs who hate you.
As a Jew doing Noahide work I do not judge people on their beliefs. We simply feed those who need feeding and the beliefs will hopefully come around later just like Avaraham Avinus used to do. Eat first, even if you are worshiping idols we'll talk religion later.
Therefore I would like to, and plan to help with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Little kids need water. We'll give it to them. i think you all know it's bad over there. I think you also all know that the vast majority of people killed in these conflicts and hurt by these conflicts are NOT in uniform and NOT interested in fighting. Yet they suffer. And to my eyes, that's human suffering and we always should help human suffering whether the human hates us or not that's irrelevant to me. Will they hate Jews MORE if a Jew gives their children water?
We shall see. But from prior experiences in other countries, although it's must harder to reach them, even the Muslims build an appreciation.
Point #2
Is Israel really in so much danger?
When I was with JTF I believed that israel is in great danger. they are surrounded by enemies from all sides who want to push them into the sea, and have said they wanted to do so. And tried to do so several times.
With more reading and viewing I started to see this from a different perspective.
One certain fact we can all agree on. Is Israel is more powerful than it lets on.
It was ILLEGAL to talk about the fact that Israel had nukes for decades.
they have the nukes. they have one of the best militaries. one of the best intelligence agenices. I've dealt now for a while with intellence agents and I asked, and was told by all of them, that Israel has the capability to wipe out all the terrorist groups in a day....
They are extremely powerful. and in a way maybe more powerful than the US because for some really hard to understand reason the USA is giving FOREIGN AID. I Israel. We're feeding dying kids in India. And money is going for Israel who already has a good militatry for an even better one.
Israel has more power than it lets on. and doesn't USE the power. and that's the problem
in reality with the arabs that they call palestinains..in gaza...they actually are more like david and we are more like goliath. that's at a practical level between those two parties
as to the other arab countries....Israel...behidn the scenes i believe has them covered very well. some in the state deparment have said that even during the wars, even they they wanted blood..israel's survival was no where near as stake.
because like i said. if they want to. they can kick serous arse.
it's just that they dont' want to. and i think that can be traced back to sick minded people in the governent and people BEHIND the government who actually LIKE the fighting and want to keep it going.
and then
point #3
is what they call the "occupation". the source of the conflict
i have heard people say...that their grandfathers have said....that before the Jews started coming over.
the indiginous jews and the indiginous arabs used to be like brothers and babysit each other's kids.
what if that's true people? can you disprove it?
we don't want to face it . but it is a fact. i'm not talknig about the state. i'm talking about the whole movement of jews into the land starting from the 1910s...when it started the vast vast majorty of the people in the region were arabs and not jews.
and they did have some stores and houses and land . and those houses and stores were taken away and destoryed. appparently Hebrew U is build on a former arab settlment.
there's an organinzation built just to try to stop bulldozing of arab homes because it went on a lot them and goes on a lot now.
so maybe the lefties have a point. when the new jews came. that's when the conflits started if you take someones' land maybe that breeds a lot of hate that wsn't there before.
i bet if you and i had started israel we would not have bred such resenmtne. but i believe the same sick minded people in charge now were in charge then and did everything in a sick antagonistic way.
i personally now belive it may be a waste of time to focus on left and right and the knesset if big corrupt evil families like the rothchilds are going to keep doing things in such a sick way.
i don't blame any regular jews for the mistreatment or creating humanitnirea crisis. i blame i belive a few people at the top (perez is a mason btw)
anyway. go ahead and attack and where i'm wrong i'm happy to be shown i'm wrong.
Why would a country HIDE its power so much?
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I left the forum a long time ago
Welcome back but why are you coming back to the forum, you didn't give reasons for you to resume posting .
Ok guys. I missed you all.
doubtful
Some will hate me for this post. That's ok.
That's what you want? maybe that s the motive you returning to the forum!
I do feedings to the needy overseas. Non Jews. And we teach the Noahide laws. When I survey the world I can't help but see that there is a huge humaniterian crisis in Gaza. These are the Arabs you hate. And the Arabs who hate you.
As a Jew doing Noahide work I do not judge people on their beliefs. We simply feed those who need feeding and the beliefs will hopefully come around later just like Avaraham Avinus used to do. Eat first, even if you are worshiping idols we'll talk religion later.
Therefore I would like to, and plan to help with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Little kids need water. We'll give it to them. i think you all know it's bad over there.
A Jew doing good deeds with your brethren would look better in your cv, Jewish children are suffering way more than those you are helping in the area where water shortage don't exist, there are over 50% children in the south who suffer psychological wound not attended, you should go to pipi's palace in the whorehouse parliament to tell him to end the suffering his ilk have unleashed on Israel's south.
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He is so smart? he sounds like a fool to me.
Lubab,
You are too smart for your own good. Really. That's not an insult, but a statement of fact.
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Muslamics can not be supported on any pretext whether twisted or untwisted.
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Ok guys. I missed you all. Some will hate me for this post. That's ok. I left the forum a long time ago and I think it was clear at the time to people I was beginning to espouse a world view very different from JTF and hence the split.
My views on Israell elieve it or not are still up for grabs. But some of the information I've run across in my travels has me leaning very far to the left. And I'm going to just share a few points as to what that is all about and I would like to be corrected if I am wrong. But I've seen quite a few right wingers lose debates on youtube on these particular points.
Have mercy :::D... Lubab... Lubab....I was slightly happy to see your post at first however after all this time your still crazy as a June bug in the month of July :::D Why even come back to JTF and post drivel like this and make everyone that remembers you despise you more than they already do... Have fun giving water and food to the arabs in my opinion I would be very careful around people like that... They will thank you one moment and have no problem stoning or chopping your head off the next... I am not even going to get into the proselytizing aspect of your post or debating your crazy political viewpoints... You were a hopeless case years back and it seems you are still going in the wrong direction today.
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Did someone hack lubab account or did he lose his mind?Do you ever look at those animals in gaza they're not starving most are morbidly overweight pigs.I bet an endocrinologist could become a millionaire there treating all the diabetics in gaza
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Point #1
I do feedings to the needy overseas. Non Jews. And we teach the Noahide laws. When I survey the world I can't help but see that there is a huge humaniterian crisis in Gaza. These are the Arabs you hate. And the Arabs who hate you.
As a Jew doing Noahide work I do not judge people on their beliefs.
That's very stupid and misguided. And it's an ethical parameter you invented yourself, which is surely not consistent with Torah. So you are not just 'leaning left' - you are leaning away from the Morality of Torah and adopting the morality of secular ethics or in this case self-invented ethics.
You are feeding hungry nazis. Hungry nazis who once well-fed, will murder you and your family (And larger family of Israeli Jews).
We simply feed those who need feeding and the beliefs will hopefully come around later just like Avaraham Avinus used to do. Eat first, even if you are worshiping idols we'll talk religion later.
Abraham proselytized all his guests. Where did you get it from that he "talked religion later?" You made that up. With you, be honest, there is no later. You are just feeding your precious gazan children and that's it. You don't expect any sort of change in their behavior or belief set. And you don't even demand that of them! That is called "The soft bigotry of low expectations" - a racist point of view (which is ubiquitous on the left).
And I highly doubt Abraham reached out to murderers. (another point you completely invented). Idol worshipers yes - where do you get it from that he reached out to murderers and common criminals whom he knew were murderers and common criminals?
You were a 9/11 truther last time you were here. That discredits you as a nut. This is consistent with someone who buys into the propaganda that there is a "crisis" in gaza and that you should help. The so-called "crisis" is self-made and self-manufactured. They are a socially inept people who punish themselves because they think it will eventually hurt Jews. And this is the people you want to help in their self-destructive behavior? So ultimately, by feeding this propaganda machine, by condoning their behavior and giving sustenance to it, you are participating in harming Jews.
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I think the funniest part in Lubab's post is when he blames "The Rothchilds", and the "mason" Perez (Shimon Peres). Poor Shimon "Perez", is there any way of conceding land and capitulating to Arabs and anti-semites in general he hadn't tried yet? As for "The Rothchilds"- none of them is even Jewish any more. They are practically a clan of spoiled inbreds living off the past fame of their name. Marrying equally infamous sluts and publicity whores to keep their game going.
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He is so smart? he sounds like a fool to me.
His intellect has caused him to seek and question everything--normally a good trait, but he took it overboard and started questioning the basic fundamentals of life and reality and now he is in the place he is in. He reminds me of a friend I used to have who was a brilliant Christian theologian and philosopher, a real gem. So thorough and complete was his seeking of knowledge and wisdom in all things that he wound up converting to Buddhism.
A person with a lower IQ would not go down these paths; they would be "safer".
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So Lubab, how *should* the modern state of Israel have ben created?
Do you still consider yourself a zionist?
Chabad Jews are not Zionists. They support the Land of Israel but don't consider themselves Zionists because they don't believe the State of Israel is the beginning of the Redemption. In practice however, they are more Zionist than the Israeli government (which is not hard) even though they wouldn't call themselves Zionists.
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This is what the Vilna Gaon has to say about the attribute of Cruelty
And this is what is meant regarding Avraham the Patriarch by the verse: Now I know that you are G-d-fearing (Gen. 22:12), i.e., by means of the precept of binding [Yitzhak for sacrifice] which Avraham performed with the characteristic of cruelty, now was completed ''Now I know'' - that Avraham is G-d-fearing - and not out of his natural disposition (he acted).
This is also what is meant by the verse to wreak vengeance upon the nations... to exact justice of them as it is written, It is glory for all his ( G-d's) pious ones (Ps. 149:7-10) - even G-d's pious ones who regularly deal in kindness (M'sillat Y'sharim, beginning of Section XIX), and yet when they wreak vengeance, it is ''glory''; - for they are not behaving in this way because of their natural disposition. (Imru No`am, B'rakhot 33) See his commentary on the Song of Songs 1:16.
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Point 1: This is war and during war time we fight nations not individuals. Any member of an enemy nation who does not actively defect to our side is considered an enemy. Rambam Hilchot Melachim in the Mishne Torah makes this very clear as do many other sources.
Point 2: Israel is in great danger, it has only been Hashem's hand and the valor of our soldiers fighting in His Great name that has saved us time and again. If our enemies gain nuclear weapons they will use them without mercy.
Point 3: Rebbe Nacham of Breslovs book Rebbe Nachman's Travels goes into great detail about the suffering and oppression Jews in Eretz Yisrael suffered at the hands of the Muslim rulers. The book was written in the early 1800's. That is a primary source that Jews were treated as dirt under Islamic rule before there was a modern Zionist movement.
I daven that you Lubab do teshuva and return to your people.
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Point 1: This is war and during war time we fight nations not individuals. Any member of an enemy nation who does not actively defect to our side is considered an enemy. Rambam Hilchot Melachim in the Mishne Torah makes this very clear as do many other sources.
Point 2: Israel is in great danger, it has only been Hashem's hand and the valor of our soldiers fighting in His Great name that has saved us time and again. If our enemies gain nuclear weapons they will use them without mercy.
Point 3: Rebbe Nacham of Breslovs book Rebbe Nachman's Travels goes into great detail about the suffering and oppression Jews in Eretz Yisrael suffered at the hands of the Muslim rulers. The book was written in the early 1800's. That is a primary source that Jews were treated as dirt under Islamic rule before there was a modern Zionist movement.
I daven that you Lubab do teshuva and return to your people.
I agree with everything you wrote except what is bolded. I would argue that it has been Hashem alone. Yes Israel has had some heroic and very skilled soldiers but let's face it, they were hopelessly outnumbered. Israel's victories on the battlefield were by miraculous, not human, agency. Combine that with the fact that today the IDF is a complete joke that is fighting patriotic Jewish dissidents more than it is the Arab Nazi enemy, and it is obvious that the only reason why tiny Israel continues to exist is the Lord.
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It's never seen ever in history of man where a country such as the israeli authority inflict cruelty over its population as shown in Luba's story with many like him working in the Israeli society, a country where traitor are protected and those who try to stop them treated as criminal by the complicit israeli media.
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He's a smart fool who needs to be corrected.
His heart is good but in the wrong place.
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בס''ד
Lubab, how sad.
You left the forum because we did not agree with the Alex Jones anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that you were peddling. I see in your writing that you still believe in this insanity.
Now you defend the Arab Muslim Nazis who have exterminated tens of thousands of Jews, who have tried to perpetrate a holocaust against us for over 100 years now, and who openly promise to finish Hitler's job. You call these Nazi mass butchers "bnei Noach". If they could, the Arabs would wipe out every single Jew and every single non-Muslim on the face of the earth.
Kohelet Rabbah 7:16: “Those who are kind to the cruel end up being cruel to the kind”.
Why do you use the Rebbe's picture when everything you stand for goes against the Rebbe's teachings? The Rebbe was against any compromise in dealing with the Arab enemies of Israel. Even suggesting concessions to the enemy, the Rebbe taught, leads to bloodshed, terrorism and war.
You need urgent help to get you to do tshuva.
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I think Lubab might be only asking to debate. I want to answer him seriously.
I want to answer Point 3 first.
Lubab: Have you actually lived longterm in a Muslim country?
Or spoken to a lot of people who lived in those countries prior to 48?
Bear in mind that going to visit these places as a visitor giving aid is different than living alongside them longterm.... under Muslim rule.
Actually on the ground here in Tel Aviv, most of us ordinary people *do* get along. I see no reason why that can't be done in Gaza, if that place was annexed and the Arab population reduced by compensated emigration.
Point #1
... Will they hate Jews MORE if a Jew gives their children water?
Yes. Definitely.
.
Moshe Feiglin wrote about the topic and said why they would hate us more.
He has written a few times about an Israeli leftist who accompanied an Arab woman from Gaza in an Israeli hospital to help her. Here is one article on it:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12907#.VaRUhZvfrEg
I would like to know what you think about it.
There is actually a case of an Arab woman in Gaza who was given water, free treatment in an Israeli hospital, who after she got well tried to blow up the hsopital.
Point #2
Is Israel really in so much danger?
When I was with JTF I believed that israel is in great danger. they are surrounded by enemies from all sides who want to push them into the sea, and have said they wanted to do so. And tried to do so several times.
If Israel was in zero danger and total peace, I would still be a right winger and not want to live under Muslim rule.
The purpose of Israel is not just peace and security.
The purpose is to build a Jerusalem. Not just physically but to "perfect the world". I interpret that as to build a great country where people behave well to one another, invent things that help the world generally, like water irrigation techniques that green the desert for example, be a good example to the world. To have a spiritual connection to G-d which can only be done in our land.
Actually I am not even religious. I don't think we have achieved all of this yet but we will and must carry on trying.
All of this is my Feiglinite interpretation as I am not really a JTF'er. I wish Chaim would join Feiglin's movement too.
appparently Hebrew U is build on a former arab settlment.
Up until 1948, *all* land acquired by Jews, was bought legally from Arabs at well above market price.The acquiring of land by warfare only started in 1948, when they launched the war to push us into the sea.
Do you really believe the Rothchild - FreeMason stuff?
Have you been reading Barry Chamish?
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From someone who has experienced atrocious attitudes and actions, muslims/arabs are extremely ruthless coldhearted people and towards to each other.
A jew has never insulted me. A jew invited me for dinners and torah seminars. but a jew did raised her voice at me at a restaurant.
On the other hand, muslims insulted me numerous times, deceived, displayed rude attitudes, label me jew as an insult, poison attempt, forced muslim children to dislike me and other despicable crap.
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I think the funniest part in Lubab's post is when he blames "The Rothchilds", and the "mason" Perez (Shimon Peres). Poor Shimon "Perez", is there any way of conceding land and capitulating to Arabs and anti-semites in general he hadn't tried yet? As for "The Rothchilds"- none of them is even Jewish any more. They are practically a clan of spoiled inbreds living off the past fame of their name. Marrying equally infamous sluts and publicity whores to keep their game going.
I didn't even get to this part, I had to take a break after reading part 1 because I was going to be sick. I can't believe he's still enamored with the nazi philosophies of rothchilds and masons and is still spreading this antisemitic bullcrap on public forums. How sickening.
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I would like to reply to Chaim first who I love regardless of our disagreements and I"m pretty sure his ahavat yisroel is also intact for me. He is disappointed in me which I understand.
And point taken I will take off the Rebbe picture until full verification after hearing all points of view that my viewpoint is consistent with his.
I know what I chose to do is controversial. And if I am wrong and need to do teshuva as many suggested I will. I am here to hear the other side to do exactly that. You hit me strong with the other side as you always hit strong and that's what I wanted.
"You left the forum because we did not agree with the Alex Jones anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that you were peddling. I see in your writing that you still believe in this insanity."
I will just say this like it is. Yes I still believe 9-11 was an inside job and I've analyzed probably thousands of pieces of evidence on the topic to reach that conclusion. I was open minded. I made a study of it. And that's where the evidence took me. I didn't like the conclusion. Based on my world view at the time it didn't really make any sense either or didn't seem possible.
I just like you. Not able to comprehend how that was possible.
But I submitted to the evidence over my preferred world view. And as years went on and my world view expanded more i also came to understand why they would do it and how they could pull off such a thing. All of you have to admit. You never have. and will never be willing to go in with a open mind and study that topic from all angles .If you did. You'd be joining me in the loony bin in probably the first 10 hours.
..that i never thought could be possible....I dare anyone to enter that discussion ofbut I know you all won't because your world view cannot accept such a thing so you dont 'examine the arguments or the evidence at all. And you all know very well...despite what you may claim... you haven't really deeply studied this topic for years like I have.
Insanity is a word that can be used to discredit a belief without having to enter into the debate. I know the tactic is used against you and your movement when you right about an issue.
Maybe in this case the roles have reversed and I'm right about this and you're using that tactic against me.
"Now you defend the Arab Muslim Nazis who have exterminated tens of thousands of Jews, who have tried to perpetrate a holocaust against us for over 100 years now, and who openly promise to finish Hitler's job. You call these Nazi mass butchers "bnei Noach". If they could, the Arabs would wipe out every single Jew and every single non-Muslim on the face of the earth."
I see your point. Really I do. This hits me very hard and makes me think.
Do I want to feed NAZIS??? Would I feed starving nazis of the holocoust?
And I must admit I wouldn't. And I would be disgusted to do so.
So why do I distinguish the hateful Arab Nazis and the German Nazis?
They both believe in Jewicide.
I will seriously think about this. I would just like to know from a true Torah perspective. When exactly does an entire group of people earn the title Nazi which I assume you mean qualifies them as Amalek which I assume you mean...they should all suffer and die.
Because this is a serious title to assign.
I saw a video on Youtube. Where arabs were randomly asked on a scale of 1 to 10 how much they hate Jews. some were in the 0 not caring range...some in the 5 range. and a lot were 10. and some said 100 or 1,000
So I just wonder at what # of saturation does all the people deserve to suffer and die.
I can't forget. It wasn't a lot .But the Rebbe a few times...would say...that doing X will prevent casualties on BOTH sides. So my understanding was that the Rebbe valued the lives on both sides.
Well if he valued those lives, doesn't it follow that we should prevent them from dying of starvation just like we would want to prevent them from dying of rockes as the Rebbe said.
This is something I'm going to be thinking about over the next few days..
I also need to ask. those arabs who hate jews 100. it's a fact that the only jews they really saw were the soliders on the checkpoints. if all i ever knew of jews was them making me wait in traffic for 2 hours to check IDs. I know you would hate them too.
Seems like the hate of the Arabs towards the Jews you all pointed out has been there for a long long time. but i think you also have to be fair and admit that it kinda waxed and waned at times so it's not a foregone conclusion that they will ALWAYS hate us. in EVERY generation...and certainly if you box people in and the only jews they see are those soliders and bunch of legends and myths that have been going around...you can be sure the hate will be on the upswing.
"Kohelet Rabbah 7:16: “Those who are kind to the cruel end up being cruel to the kind”."
I agree with this of course. When it comes to people who are active in the fight i would have absoultely no mercy. i'm asking if the people not in the fight deserve to suffer and die as well and i'm not sure.
Why do you use the Rebbe's picture when everything you stand for goes against the Rebbe's teachings?
Point taken.
The Rebbe was against any compromise in dealing with the Arab enemies of Israel. Even suggesting concessions to the enemy, the Rebbe taught, leads to bloodshed, terrorism and war.
Another thing I have to think about. because this truly could be dangerous. if i am ever talking to an arab and say that the occupation is bad and we are so sorry about it. this could embolden him. and he could say "look!" the jews are weak. they don't believe they own the land.
other side of it is, if I was actually talking to an arab i would never say anything like that so it wouldn't come up. all i would talk about is how they have to follow the noahide laws which means they have to stop killing people or believing in killing people. when a jew says this with the power of the torah, to a non jew...it has an impact on them if ever so slightly. they see...this jew truly believes...he's not backing down from his beliefs one iota in fact he's telling ME how to serve G-d. I see it as a position of strentgh not weakness since i'm sourcing myself in the BIBLE the Jewish BIBLE. i think it could put us in a stronger position, not a weaker one. the rebbe always used to say make your claim based on the bible, not based on the UN or any other logical reason.
But I could be wrong I may be reaching there and my bleeding heart is overriding true Torah understanding.
Someone above asked why not help Jews.
There are many organizations for Jews. But almost NO active ones from Jews...for non Jews. Someone above said I am another version of Xtianity and i'm just trying to placate them.
Actually not at all. Get yourself a Rambam. Compelling all non jews to follow the noahide laws is mandatory for all of you jews and none of you are doing it at all and you know it. YOU all need to do teshuva about neglecting that aspect of the Torah. so i made an organization to help do it. and we do NOT just deliver food we also teach the noahide laws with an emphasis on what they need...in their case...stopping murder.
"You need urgent help to get you to do tshuva."
Ok Chaim. I know you are looking out for my wellbeing. I can feel that and I appreciate it. If i'm a sinner I call out to you from the depths of darkness to say G-d prove me wrong. Prove me 100% wrong if I'm wrong. Just make it clear with no arguments from one side or the other. I want to KNOW you G-d.
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First off Chaim stole some of my thunder on this one. Like Chaim I immediately noticed a common thread in Lubab's post: conspiracy theories. I remember a while ago Lubab said he had gone down "the Rabbit hole", but I thought he had admitted he had gone way too far down that hole and had given up the conspiracy minded world view. His post shows he clearly has not. Examples:
1. Israel might be the most powerful country on earth/ it might control the USA- A country of 6 million people can't control or be more powerful than the most powerful nation in the history of the world, a nation that has over 300 million people, a nation that in a few hours will achieve one of the greatest accomplishments in the history of man when it's satellite reaches Pluto. To believe in Israel's magical power and mythical control is illogical and based on conspiracy BS. It kept it's nuke capability quiet for many years simply because it did not want to deal with the MANY MORE POWERFUL Nations of the world who would not allow such a capability.
2. The Rothschilds- Apparently Lubab does not understand what that term translates into. I will translate it for you="Mythical secretive evil Jews that control the world". It's a general term for that kind of garbage belief. You can't possibly really believe that a secretive cabal of Jews plan and control the fate of the planet.
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Baltimore. I think anyone not on this forum would be able to see that everything you wrote is very closed minded. You are rejecting things out of hand, and I can see you don't have a full understanding of the issue or who the Rothchilds are.
If you don't know all about the families like Rothchild and Rockefeller. If you do'nt know what they actually DO. Who is above them and who is below them in the chain of command...And this goes for all of you....if you admit you don't know the full chain of command how can you be so certain who is pulling what strings.
If let's just say i'm right the rothchild family helped found israel and is still very powerful behind the scenese. then israel could be more powerful due to that family being more powerful than the rockefeller family in america. for instances
maybe things are run more by families, sorta like the mob, then by the prime ministers and presidents we see on TV. How can you be so CERTAIN that is not how it works if you're not at all the big meetings!!
They have big meetings. ANd people have broken into them and stolen the notes. This stuff isn't as mysterious as you think. We know who goes to the meetings. WE know what they talk about.
And YEAH. it's way way different from the power strucutre we are sold on tv and radio. Too bad deal with it!
First off Chaim stole some of my thunder on this one. Like Chaim I immediately noticed a common thread in Lubab's post: conspiracy theories. I remember a while ago Lubab said he had gone down "the Rabbit hole", but I thought he had admitted he had gone way too far down that hole and had given up the conspiracy minded world view. His post shows he clearly has not. Examples:
1. Israel might be the most powerful country on earth/ it might control the USA- A country of 6 million people can't control or be more powerful than the most powerful nation in the history of the world, a nation that has over 300 million people, a nation that in a few hours will achieve one of the greatest accomplishments in the history of man when it's satellite reaches Pluto. To believe in Israel's magical power and mythical control is illogical and based on conspiracy BS. It kept it's nuke capability quiet for many years simply because it did not want to deal with the MANY MORE POWERFUL Nations of the world who would not allow such a capability.
2. The Rothschilds- Apparently Lubab does not understand what that term translates into. I will translate it for you="Mythical secretive evil Jews that control the world". It's a general term for that kind of garbage belief. You can't possibly really believe that a secretive cabal of Jews plan and control the fate of the planet.
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And if Avraham Avinu closed his tent to murders. YOU have to prove that.
Because the messagae of the story is very clear. Avharam took in SINNERS...and murder is one of the 3 biggest sins...and ONLY gave food....and ONLY LATER (this answers someone else's question)
so if he exluded murderers. show me where. and let me as YOU a question. can murderers repent ever? research that.
and if they can repent how will they with no teacher? think about that.
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Fibro girl.
Thank you for one of the only respectful posts.
You asked what I think about the hospital story.
This is what I think.
I think that woman is already brimming with hate since she was a child. One kindness won't reverse that. Notice what she said....you're on my land...one cup of water won't change that.
So there wasn't any hate coming from the act of giving her the water. the hate was there. and the water she's saying was insignificant.
So I dont think me giving water will breed more hate. I think if i gave it out like a whiney jewish aplogist that might make them lose respect for jews and hate them more.
but if i give it out as a strong believer in G-d and the Bible who won't budge his beliefs...and who is just doing G-d's will to help his children. i promsise some will respect that. it will certainly be a n experience with a jew they've never ever had and won't soon forget that's for sure.
I think Lubab might be only asking to debate. I want to answer him seriously.
I want to answer Point 3 first.
Lubab: Have you actually lived longterm in a Muslim country?
Or spoken to a lot of people who lived in those countries prior to 48?
Bear in mind that going to visit these places as a visitor giving aid is different than living alongside them longterm.... under Muslim rule.
Actually on the ground here in Tel Aviv, most of us ordinary people *do* get along. I see no reason why that can't be done in Gaza, if that place was annexed and the Arab population reduced by compensated emigration.
Quote from: Lubab on July 12, 2015, 11:10:43 PM
Point #1
... Will they hate Jews MORE if a Jew gives their children water?
Yes. Definitely.
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Moshe Feiglin wrote about the topic and said why they would hate us more.
He has written a few times about an Israeli leftist who accompanied an Arab woman from Gaza in an Israeli hospital to help her. Here is one article on it:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12907#.VaRUhZvfrEg
I would like to know what you think about it.
There is actually a case of an Arab woman in Gaza who was given water, free treatment in an Israeli hospital, who after she got well tried to blow up the hsopital.
Quote from: Lubab on July 12, 2015, 11:10:43 PM
Point #2
Is Israel really in so much danger?
When I was with JTF I believed that israel is in great danger. they are surrounded by enemies from all sides who want to push them into the sea, and have said they wanted to do so. And tried to do so several times.
If Israel was in zero danger and total peace, I would still be a right winger and not want to live under Muslim rule.
The purpose of Israel is not just peace and security.
The purpose is to build a Jerusalem. Not just physically but to "perfect the world". I interpret that as to build a great country where people behave well to one another, invent things that help the world generally, like water irrigation techniques that green the desert for example, be a good example to the world. To have a spiritual connection to G-d which can only be done in our land.
Actually I am not even religious. I don't think we have achieved all of this yet but we will and must carry on trying.
All of this is my Feiglinite interpretation as I am not really a JTF'er. I wish Chaim would join Feiglin's movement too.
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Baltimore. I think anyone not on this forum would be able to see that everything you wrote is very closed minded. You are rejecting things out of hand, and I can see you don't have a full understanding of the issue or who the Rothchilds are.
I'd rather be closed-minded, and of only average IQ, but on the straight and true path, than brilliant and educated in the ways of all the masters and so inquisitive that I come to doubt and reject everything I ever knew. It's unfortunate that intelligent people often have this temptation, but like the rest of us, they have free will and choose to go down this rabbit hole or not. Just because you mean well doesn't mean that G-d will bless your bizarre and worldly philosophical ambling. Just because you started off as a legitimate inquisitor doesn't mean that you will be counted as righteous still when your mental self-stimulation ends in you adopting unrighteous doctrines.
Just because a conspiracy theory sounds good doesn't mean it is true. Just because the world knows how to play the violin on the heartstrings of the poor, poor Fakestinian children doesn't mean they deserve any mercy. You (who claim to be a devout Jew still) know exactly what Hashem told Israel to do to the Amalek nations of the Middle East--the ancestors of the Fakestinians. The Fakestinians are every bit as Nazi as they were if not more. If you reject that you are rejecting the Bible and Torah, not man. But JTF does not advocate hurting Arab children--merely compensating their parents and requiring them to leave Eretz Yisrael. If you profess to not have known that, I will not believe you.
I would urge you to heed Chaim's advice and check your heart and repent of this foolishness before it's too late.
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Also about your claim of the ones dyeing "not being in uniform". That is [censored] as well. Either way it doesn't even matter. If you claim to be "Leshem shemayim" and as if they are innocent then why did they elect Hamas? Why their polls show they support the murder of Jews? Their government is evil, it is against us and they all have the din of Rodfim. Just like the Germans during WW2 and Amalek and the Egyptians at the sea (even the righteous among them drowned) and the town(or city) of Schehem they are all responsible because they are in a state of war with us.
+ If you teach the Noahide laws or even knew them you would know that they have to make courts and bring the guilty to trial. The Arabs in Gaza do not. In fact the even encourage them and support them ad are in a state of war against Israel. They do deserve to get what they want to do to us.
This was thought provoking.
Why did they elect hamas?
One big reason is because hamas is the one that gives them the FOOD. I had this experience. when you give food you get votes
but also they hate the jews. there is no question. i don't ddisagree. the question is why are they so hateul. you will say because that's just how muslims are and i will say yeah....but not always and it's beeing made way worse by a lot of things we've done and are doign.
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Lubab: Have you actually lived longterm in a Muslim country?
Or spoken to a lot of people who lived in those countries prior to 48?
No. I've never lived in a Muslim country. But i recently met and befriended someone from Yemen. and he insisted even though i found it hard to belive...that i could live there with a yarmulka and tzitzis and nobody gives a darn what religion you are.
Maybe he's lying. But maybe he's telling the truth .There are jews surviving succesfully in arab countries.
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"Up until 1948, *all* land acquired by Jews, was bought legally from Arabs at well above market price.The acquiring of land by warfare only started in 1948, when they launched the war to push us into the sea.
Do you really believe the Rothchild - FreeMason stuff?
Have you been reading Barry Chamish?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 09:21:36 PM by fibrogirl »"
This runs contrary to a LOT of research I have done. I would check into that from a variety of sources and see if you still want to believe it.
I like Barry Chamish but haven't listened or read too much of his stuff.
Do I REALLY believe in the Rothchild Mason stuff???
Of course!
The Masons and Rothchllds have both been powerful players in society for generations in the case of the Rothchlids. and the masons dating all the way back to King Soloman.
I believe in history. and these power players are facts of history you are just not used to hearing about it or thinking a long certain lines because of the way you were educated. life is like the matrix and people find it very hard, and very scary to think outside of it. but that, to me, is where the real bravery lies.
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"I'd rather be closed-minded, and of only average IQ, but on the straight and true path, than brilliant and educated in the ways of all the masters and so inquisitive that I come to doubt and reject everything I ever knew. It's unfortunate that intelligent people often have this temptation, but like the rest of us, they have free will and choose to go down this rabbit hole or not. Just because you mean well doesn't mean that G-d will bless your bizarre and worldly philosophical ambling. Just because you started off as a legitimate inquisitor doesn't mean that you will be counted as righteous still when your mental self-stimulation ends in you adopting unrighteous doctrines.
Just because a conspiracy theory sounds good doesn't mean it is true. Just because the world knows how to play the violin on the heartstrings of the poor, poor Fakestinian children doesn't mean they deserve any mercy. You (who claim to be a devout Jew still) know exactly what Hashem told Israel to do to the Amalek nations of the Middle East--the ancestors of the Fakestinians. The Fakestinians are every bit as Nazi as they were if not more. If you reject that you are rejecting the Bible and Torah, not man. But JTF does not advocate hurting Arab children--merely compensating their parents and requiring them to leave Eretz Yisrael. If you profess to not have known that, I will not believe you.
I would urge you to heed Chaim's advice and check your heart and repent of this foolishness before it's too late."
I think you are an incredible writer maam.
I just want to point out a fallacy. Maybe I'm high IQ AND I'm also right! Did you ever consider that! It's not just one or the other.
You insulted my writing as bizzare philosophical rambling. I just don't see where you are coming from with that statement. I would love an actual example of something I said that you think is bizarre. maybe if i have a chance to explain it it won't seem so bizzare! because if i don't have solid backing for what i'm saying i don't write it at all.
whether dying arab children in gaza who are too young to even know what a Jew is...should be allowed to suffer and die when you have the ability to help them...is not that simple an issue.
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The Masons and Rothchllds have both been powerful players in society for generations in the case of the Rothchlids. and the masons dating all the way back to King Solomon.
The Freemasons rewrite History. They claim that they originate from the building of the First Temple. They also hijack some Kabbalistic things. Many of the conspiracy theorists write Anti-Semitic things accusing Freemasons of being behind Kabbalah. A lot of the New Age people hijack Kabbalah. Just look on Wikipedia and you can see. Kabbalah is part of the Torah. It is not some New Age astrology nonsense. So Freemasons use some Jewish concepts and conspiracy theorists blame it on the Jews. Adam was the first one to study Kabbalah. Freemasons try to say all the people that studied Kabbalah were Freemasons. It's just like Muslims say Adam was Muslim and blacks say "everybody was black, UMM HMM".
Barry Chamish is the only conspiracy theorist that tries to get religious Jews as well as Christians to support his views. But his other target is the New Age people that like his UFO theories. So his Christian religious supporters oppose his other target group (Many Evangelicals are into conspiracy theories. Watch late night paid programming and you will hear them talking about the back of the one dollar bill for example. The J4J's are actually very Zionist and support conspiracy theory stuff even if they are missionaries which undoes any good they may have done with their Zionism.).
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For the record I didn't say I oppose teaching the laws of B'nai Noah. I was saying something else. Just forget it for now.
Anyway since you base yourself (claim) off the RAMBAMS Halacha I suggest you glance over Hilchot Melachim umilhamit as well. See how he paskins in dealing with enemies during war time and to those who pose danger to us. Both internal and external.
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I offer all JTFers free rides down the rabbit hole.
I give gentle rides.
But it's really a ride UP not DOWN.
THEY want you think it's going DOWN so you won't do it. that's your first lesson. :)
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"For the record I didn't say I oppose teaching the laws of B'nai Noah. I was saying something else. Just forget it for now.
Anyway since you base yourself (claim) off the RAM AMS Halacha I suggest you glance over Hilchot Melachim umilhamit as well. See how he paskins in dealing with enemies during war time and to those who pose danger to us. Both internal and external."
I've learned it. But I'll learn it again. I think the issue i'm having is where do you draw the line. Maybe you can tell me. Because i don't get it. You're saying I shouldn't feed them. SO you're saying they deserve to all suffer and die? So should we just recklessly bomb civilian areas? We all know we don't do that. Even JTF doesn't believe in killing all these people. I think we all value their lives to a certain extent don't we?
Tag. Question for you. You are standing by a lake. And a very antisemetic man you know falls in and he doens't know how to swim.
What do you do?
Say he's a nazi and he deserves to die?
What is our halachic obligation?
I would save him. That way if he deserved to live, he lived. And he may repent from the incident.
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"The Freemasons rewrite History. They claim that they originate from the building of the First Temple. They also hijack some Kabbalistic things. Many of the conspiracy theorists write Anti-Semitic things accusing Freemasons of being behind Kabbalah. A lot of the New Age people hijack Kabbalah. Just like on Wikipedia and you can see. Kabbalah is part of the Torah. It is not some New Age astrology nonsense. So Freemasons use some Jewish concepts and conspiracy theorists blame it on the Jews. Adam was the first one to study Kabbalah. Freemasons try to say all the people that studied Kabbalah were Freemasons. It's just like Muslims say Adam was Muslim and blacks say "everybody was black, UMM HMM". "
Yes they totally do this. They are a sick perverted organization that tries to hide just about all the truth they can from the public.
You made me question whether the second temple claim is true at all. I need to now find out where i learned that other than masonic sources. i've heard it from religious jews...but could it be those jews bought into the big masonic lie.
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No. I've never lived in a Muslim country. But i recently met and befriended someone from Yemen. and he insisted even though i found it hard to belive...that i could live there with a yarmulka and tzitzis and nobody gives a darn what religion you are.
Maybe he's lying. But maybe he's telling the truth .There are jews surviving succesfully in arab countries.
If he is telling the truth, then why did over 90% of Yemen's Jews leave and never ever visit again?
Why aren't you visiting and living there?
Your use of the word "Jews surviving successfully" shows that you aren't that ignorant about their intentions towards us, or how Jews live, even in better places like Iran.
the 1% of Jews who did not leave Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, Egypt, are not successful.
You did not give a clear enough on how you are different to the woman Moshe Feiglin described.
If the Arabs are voting Hamas because Hamas is the only one giving them food, why do the wealthier Arab countries not also sponser liberal food donation services that support peace.
Why do the Arabs in Israel, who do have food, not have the same variety of views on Israel that we Jews have on Arabs? Why aren't there so few Arabs with your views Lubab?
I think you have been taken in by the fact that many individual Arabs can be very likeable. When not agitated, I think they can be more likeable than Jews or Israelis....
But when you have to live as a minority amongst them long term, or get them agitated for any reason, not necessarily Jewish related, then it is a different matter.
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For those who said I should talk to Mashpiim. I davened today with Rabbi Asher Herson who I think we can agree is a talmid chochom.
I made my points and asked what he thought. He went on and on explaining BOTH arguments. The a) you could be helping a rodef argument and the b) if we don't teach them not to kill (noahide laws) who will?
And he basically said we don't have enough information. We would need the information if that person has the potential to start killing or if they can be helped and that's very hard to find out he said. I counter that this is more likely to help STOP terrorism. and i firmly believe it will either be helpful spiritually or be a non factor. I do NOT beleive at all...it will breed hatred of Jews. And NONE of you can say it will and I'll tell you why.
This has never been done before. The people are always either right wing haters of Arabs. Or weak minded morally bankrupt leftists. They have no respect for the leftists. but what nobody has tried...is a strong Bible believing Jew who takes the upper ground and says we'll help you but you must change your ways....your religion and your beliefs are WRONG.
words from the heart enter the heart.
then again. contrinuting to a murder is a serious serious crime. he was unable to answer the question one way or the other.
and interestly at the end he said "may we all merit to make the world different"
to which i replied as a joke you didn't say better...you said different....and what i'm doing may be better or it may be worse but it's definitely different! never been tried you have to admit!
Regarding Yemen. I'm going to ask my brother in law who is Yeminite what he thinks and hopefully not just get an opinion from someone who has never been t here in his life...because he hasn't. i'll ask him who to ask...and do my research I don't want to speak out of ignorance and you called me out on ignorance and I think you're right. It's an issue i've always wanted to fully clarifiy. I know Chaim has spoken many times of vicious anti semetic policies in these countries. but then i hear reports otherwise and i have to do my own research.
"If the Arabs are voting Hamas because Hamas is the only one giving them food, why do the wealthier Arab countries not also sponser liberal food donation services that support peace. "
I honestly don't understand this question. I personally still have JTF in me. I do believe these Arab leaders are all hateful scum. And not just of Jews but of each other.
I think the question is how they got there...and what do we do about it. Maybe it's our job to be the light unto the nations. The sages have said that lack of world peace is a results of us not teaching the 7. It's never been tried so don't say it doen'st work!!!
"Why do the Arabs in Israel, who do have food, not have the same variety of views on Israel that we Jews have on Arabs? Why aren't there so few Arabs with your views Lubab?"
Well if they're all in gaza, they all have the same experience of Jews. "traffic stoppers!" We jews all of different interations with Arabs.
Arabs don't hold my view? Not sure what you mean. I think all the Arabs hold my view. Not that i want to be on their side but They would like the familiye's of those not in the fight to have the neccesilites and i agree. of course when it comes to fighting and hurting jews i will shoot them dead the moment they begin to lift a finger maybe faster than any of you! becavus that's the torah way. death penalty for violating the noahide laws is the rule.
"I think you have been taken in by the fact that many individual Arabs can be very likeable. When not agitated, I think they can be more likeable than Jews or Israelis...."
This is refreshing that you have even spoken to an Arab long enough to realiize that.
But when you have to live as a minority amongst them long term, or get them agitated for any reason, not necessarily Jewish related, then it is a different matter. "
yeah well they are agitated not question about it. different nations have different spiritual issues .and i think they as a people are born with a tendency towards murder. the hindu people tend towards idol worship. i think every people has a Noahide law meant for them. but who is teaching them the better way? nobody. don't we still believe a little light sheds a lot of darkness? that words from the heart enter the heart? Are they literally not human and beyond repair becaues they have this sinful tendency? if there is a repair, what is it and who will do it?
i know the RODEF side of it. i'm playing up the other side and asking you to think about it honestly
"Quote from: Lubab on Today at 12:03:17 AM
No. I've never lived in a Muslim country. But i recently met and befriended someone from Yemen. and he insisted even though i found it hard to belive...that i could live there with a yarmulka and tzitzis and nobody gives a darn what religion you are.
Maybe he's lying. But maybe he's telling the truth .There are jews surviving succesfully in arab countries.
If he is telling the truth, then why did over 90% of Yemen's Jews leave and never ever visit again?
Why aren't you visiting and living there?
Your use of the word "Jews surviving successfully" shows that you aren't that ignorant about their intentions towards us, or how Jews live, even in better places like Iran.
the 1% of Jews who did not leave Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, Egypt, are not successful.
You did not give a clear enough on how you are different to the woman Moshe Feiglin described.
If the Arabs are voting Hamas because Hamas is the only one giving them food, why do the wealthier Arab countries not also sponser liberal food donation services that support peace.
Why do the Arabs in Israel, who do have food, not have the same variety of views on Israel that we Jews have on Arabs? Why aren't there so few Arabs with your views Lubab?
I think you have been taken in by the fact that many individual Arabs can be very likeable. When not agitated, I think they can be more likeable than Jews or Israelis....
But when you have to live as a minority amongst them long term, or get them agitated for any reason, not necessarily Jewish related, then it is a different matter.
P.S. Maybe the Yemen issue and the arab country issues are an issue of government vs. the peopple. often in the world, the government has a nasty policy but the peolple themselves don't believe in it.
that could be here. this guy was saying they're all about making money and don't really care about religion one way or the other which makes sense to me.
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I will just say this like it is. Yes I still believe 9-11 was an inside job and I've analyzed probably thousands of pieces of evidence on the topic to reach that conclusion. I was open minded. I made a study of it.
It's amazing how you could spend so much time and energy on something and yet get your study so spectacularly wrong by misunderstanding the facts of the study and drawing invalid conclusions about the "thousands of pieces of evidence" on the topic. The evidence is so overwhelming that it was NOT an inside job, that it takes a gargantuan cacophony of FAIL to even suggest otherwise, let alone to believe such fairytales and the money-grubbing, dishonest prostitutes who peddle them.
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Baltimore. I think anyone not on this forum would be able to see that everything you wrote is very closed minded. You are rejecting things out of hand, and I can see you don't have a full understanding of the issue or who the Rothchilds are.
No, Lubab. He is rejecting it because it's nonsense. It's the same nonsense nazis have been spouting for hundreds of years already (as a pathetic excuse to harm and murder Jews. THEY are the ones with bloodlust! Proven by historical fact, behavior which they carried out not some inane quasi-freudian population psychoanalysis on the formerly Jewish rothchild family). - It didn't have any evidence behind it then and certainly doesn't now. One of the most pernicious lies in human history and you buy into it hook line and sinker. Because you are a gullible fool who wants to blame himself. So you blame all Jews!
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Maybe he's lying. But maybe he's telling the truth .There are jews surviving succesfully in arab countries.
"Surviving successfully" LOL. Look at the population numbers. Look at Iraq, Syria, Aghanistan, Iran. You are trying to sell a bill of goods here and I won't stand for it. You spout complete nonsense with no facts to back you up. None whatsoever. It's all smoke and mirrors and wishful (delusional) thinking on your part. Unlike some others here, I am not convinced of any IQ credentials you supposedly have. One of average IQ and above does not buy into paranoid conspiracy theories with no facts behind them!
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I'm wondering lubab do you still pose as a rabbi in your personal life?
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Unlike some others here, I am not convinced of any IQ credentials you supposedly have. One of average IQ and above does not buy into paranoid conspiracy theories with no facts behind them!
Neither don't I. Only retards fall for that conspiracy non-sense. paganistic, low IQ mindset.
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Really lubab the story is clear? I'm just wondering does the Lubab religion include or exclude chazal. And the midrashim to understand the story? You can't make the story about something it wasn't and then demand me to prove a negative. The story was about what it was about: 3 idol worshipers Abraham welcomed into his tent as guests to teach them monotheism. That's only the pshat level. And you are remaking the pshat into your own story of aiding and abetting enemies to teach them his ways? Talk about projection.
Abraham did not invite the kings of enemy nations and their soldiers into his home to mekarev them. He fought a war against his enemies. Don't spread sheker.
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Again I will be clear. You are adopting secular ethics and accepting the premises of the postmodernism of liberal leftists annd atheists. There is nothing special creative or unique about it. From the world I come from, it is nauseatingly typical. The leftists brainwash society to believe there are no nations, no enemy or hostile populations amd no moral justification to respond to cruelty mercilessly. And no borders and no differences between people... you hate shimon peres so much but your ideology has become similar in many ways to his.
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The Freemasons rewrite History. They claim that they originate from the building of the First Temple. They also hijack some Kabbalistic things. Many of the conspiracy theorists write Anti-Semitic things accusing Freemasons of being behind Kabbalah. A lot of the New Age people hijack Kabbalah. Just look on Wikipedia and you can see. Kabbalah is part of the Torah. It is not some New Age astrology nonsense. So Freemasons use some Jewish concepts and conspiracy theorists blame it on the Jews. Adam was the first one to study Kabbalah. Freemasons try to say all the people that studied Kabbalah were Freemasons. It's just like Muslims say Adam was Muslim and blacks say "everybody was black, UMM HMM".
Barry Chamish is the only conspiracy theorist that tries to get religious Jews as well as Christians to support his views. But his other target is the New Age people that like his UFO theories. So his Christian religious supporters oppose his other target group (Many Evangelicals are into conspiracy theories. Watch late night paid programming and you will hear them talking about the back of the one dollar bill for example. The J4J's are actually very Zionist and support conspiracy theory stuff even if they are missionaries which undoes any good they may have done with their Zionism.).
We rewrite history? You mean we record history! Like the Hebros? We don't replace anybody! Anyone can be one, as long as you believe in the one creator. If you're smarter than a rock, you can figure out who that is.... If you don't like it, you can quit. Just don't tell anyone our secrets, or you will disappear... ;-)
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Lubab, I could only wish Jews and Mason ruled the world! This world wouldn't be like it is today!
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Look at this Lubab..... Right in the center. We even have the Bohemie Catholics.... :o
http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g274714-i21530237-Brno_South_Moravian_Region_Moravia.html
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We rewrite history? You mean we record history! Like the Hebros? We don't replace anybody! Anyone can be one, as long as you believe in the one creator. If you're smarter than a rock, you can figure out who that is.... If you don't like it, you can quit. Just don't tell anyone our secrets, or you will disappear... ;-)
??? How many mentally ill people are on this forum?
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??? How many mentally ill people are on this forum?
It was a joke, mentally ill DICK!!
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Lubab, does the shiite you're spitting sound familiar to you at all? It's what the Nazis and Russians were yelling and screaming before World War 2!!!!!!!!!!! It's what's being spread in America and the west, by the Marxist socialists commies today! PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ARSE! Get on the right side of history, because WE WIN!
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Tag, I think your an arsehole that causes problems for this forum. Pull the Corn cob out your arse! Looks like we are losing members.....
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I don't hate you, but you need to understand that the world is going to be a very dangerous place from the Progressive left destroying our national security by making deals with Iran, Cuba, and Russia. God blesses those who bless Israel and curses those who curse her. It has stood the test of time. Genesis 12:3 God deals with nations in accord with how those nations deal with Israel.
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The Lord said to David and to Solomon his son, "In this house and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, I will put my name forever." II Kings 21:7
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??? How many mentally ill people are on this forum?
What exactly in that statement makes me mentally I'll?
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Shalom Lubab and welcome back to the forum. Your views are crazy and unjewish and would love for you stay here and debate us until you are set straight and a full fledged Jewish Jew. Below I will respond to your points:
Ok guys. I missed you all. Some will hate me for this post. That's ok. I left the forum a long time ago and I think it was clear at the time to people I was beginning to espouse a world view very different from JTF and hence the split.
My views on Israell elieve it or not are still up for grabs. But some of the information I've run across in my travels has me leaning very far to the left. And I'm going to just share a few points as to what that is all about and I would like to be corrected if I am wrong. But I've seen quite a few right wingers lose debates on youtube on these particular points.
Point #1
I do feedings to the needy overseas. Non Jews. And we teach the Noahide laws. When I survey the world I can't help but see that there is a huge humaniterian crisis in Gaza. These are the Arabs you hate. And the Arabs who hate you.
As a Jew doing Noahide work I do not judge people on their beliefs. We simply feed those who need feeding and the beliefs will hopefully come around later just like Avaraham Avinus used to do. Eat first, even if you are worshiping idols we'll talk religion later.
Therefore I would like to, and plan to help with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Little kids need water. We'll give it to them. i think you all know it's bad over there. I think you also all know that the vast majority of people killed in these conflicts and hurt by these conflicts are NOT in uniform and NOT interested in fighting. Yet they suffer. And to my eyes, that's human suffering and we always should help human suffering whether the human hates us or not that's irrelevant to me. Will they hate Jews MORE if a Jew gives their children water?
We shall see. But from prior experiences in other countries, although it's must harder to reach them, even the Muslims build an appreciation.
point number: Jewish problems should come first. That's not to say there are other problems that we should worry about such as starvation etc etc etc. but how about seeking out starving Jews and helping them and let the poles worry about poles and Arabs worry about Arabs?
I don't understand you. What religion are you following? Judaism or humanism? You help your people before you help other people and this includes the children of the people want to destroy you.
Ever heard the story about the shepherd who found a dying baby wolf and nursed it to health wit his baby goats? And his employer came by and said, "kill the wolf for it will grow and kill the sheep." Sure enough the wolf grew and ate a sheep. As Moses and Joshua stated, "if you let the inhabitants live amongst you (women and children included), they will be as thorns and thistles at your sides." "When one shows mercy to the cruel, he will show cruelty to the kind." For the mercy to the enemy is the the rahamim ha tipshim. Are you fool, lubab? Wake up!!!!
Point #2
Is Israel really in so much danger?
When I was with JTF I believed that israel is in great danger. they are surrounded by enemies from all sides who want to push them into the sea, and have said they wanted to do so. And tried to do so several times.
With more reading and viewing I started to see this from a different perspective.
One certain fact we can all agree on. Is Israel is more powerful than it lets on.
It was ILLEGAL to talk about the fact that Israel had nukes for decades.
they have the nukes. they have one of the best militaries. one of the best intelligence agenices. I've dealt now for a while with intellence agents and I asked, and was told by all of them, that Israel has the capability to wipe out all the terrorist groups in a day....
They are extremely powerful. and in a way maybe more powerful than the US because for some really hard to understand reason the USA is giving FOREIGN AID. I Israel. We're feeding dying kids in India. And money is going for Israel who already has a good militatry for an even better one.
Israel has more power than it lets on. and doesn't USE the power. and that's the problem
in reality with the arabs that they call palestinains..in gaza...they actually are more like david and we are more like goliath. that's at a practical level between those two parties
as to the other arab countries....Israel...behidn the scenes i believe has them covered very well. some in the state deparment have said that even during the wars, even they they wanted blood..israel's survival was no where near as stake.
because like i said. if they want to. they can kick serous arse.
it's just that they dont' want to. and i think that can be traced back to sick minded people in the governent and people BEHIND the government who actually LIKE the fighting and want to keep it going.
and then
israel is powerful but only surviving because of Gd's promise. If we do what we are supposed to do as Jews then Gd will do His part. Don't forget that after the six day war the Israelis thought they were invincible and did not give Gd credit. Look what happened since. A powerful army means nothing.
point #3
is what they call the "occupation". the source of the conflict
i have heard people say...that their grandfathers have said....that before the Jews started coming over.
the indiginous jews and the indiginous arabs used to be like brothers and babysit each other's kids.
what if that's true people? can you disprove it?
we don't want to face it . but it is a fact. i'm not talknig about the state. i'm talking about the whole movement of jews into the land starting from the 1910s...when it started the vast vast majorty of the people in the region were arabs and not jews.
and they did have some stores and houses and land . and those houses and stores were taken away and destoryed. appparently Hebrew U is build on a former arab settlment.
there's an organinzation built just to try to stop bulldozing of arab homes because it went on a lot them and goes on a lot now.
so maybe the lefties have a point. when the new jews came. that's when the conflits started if you take someones' land maybe that breeds a lot of hate that wsn't there before.
i bet if you and i had started israel we would not have bred such resenmtne. but i believe the same sick minded people in charge now were in charge then and did everything in a sick antagonistic way.
i personally now belive it may be a waste of time to focus on left and right and the knesset if big corrupt evil families like the rothchilds are going to keep doing things in such a sick way.
i don't blame any regular jews for the mistreatment or creating humanitnirea crisis. i blame i belive a few people at the top (perez is a mason btw)
anyway. go ahead and attack and where i'm wrong i'm happy to be shown i'm wrong.
Why would a country HIDE its power so much?
In 1948 Israel agreed to a compromise and guess who said "throw the Jews into the sea"? I'll give you 22 guesses. Guess how many wars they tried to do it? Guess who Gd protected? Guess how many wars the Arabs need to win to finish the Jews off?
There is only one Jewish state and 22 Arab countries. The Arabs who live in Israel who hate being in a Jewish state can go to their 22 countries, Gd bless them all.
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"For the record I didn't say I oppose teaching the laws of B'nai Noah. I was saying something else. Just forget it for now.
Anyway since you base yourself (claim) off the RAM AMS Halacha I suggest you glance over Hilchot Melachim umilhamit as well. See how he paskins in dealing with enemies during war time and to those who pose danger to us. Both internal and external."
I've learned it. But I'll learn it again. I think the issue i'm having is where do you draw the line. Maybe you can tell me. Because i don't get it. You're saying I shouldn't feed them. SO you're saying they deserve to all suffer and die? So should we just recklessly bomb civilian areas? We all know we don't do that. Even JTF doesn't believe in killing all these people. I think we all value their lives to a certain extent don't we?
Tag. Question for you. You are standing by a lake. And a very antisemetic man you know falls in and he doens't know how to swim.
What do you do?
Say he's a nazi and he deserves to die?
What is our halachic obligation?
I would save him. That way if he deserved to live, he lived. And he may repent from the incident.
It is so unjewish to risk your life to save a person who disobeys Gd and hates His people. Let Gd decide if He should live.
When you show mercy to the cruel, it is the mercy of fools. you are acting like a fool. WAKE UP WAKE UP!!!!!!!!
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I was once a liberal leftist.
I found out how liberal leftists really feel about Jews and how they want us to hate ourselves.
Lubab will learn the hard way.
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Mordechai in the Biblical book of Esther did not win people over to the right ideas about G-d by giving peanut butter sandwiches to the friends of Haman.
He used Jewish might and was very successful. See for example Esther 8:17. Also our sages said the Teshuva of the Jewish people at the time of Mordechai and Esther was greater than the Teshuva of the Jews at Mount Sinai.
See also Tehillim/Psalms 58 as translated at http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16279 (http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16279)
11 The righteous man will rejoice because he saw revenge; he will bathe his feet in the blood of the wicked.
12 And man will say, "Truly, the righteous man has reward; truly there is a God Who judges on earth."
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If you were spending time with palestinians and helping them, giving them food and shelter etc... and feel good about it etc... that's up to you.
I just hope you are not going to end up regretting it if they should try to physically harm you or your family, as they have harmed the hand that feeds them in the past.
Good luck.
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:::D
It was a joke, mentally ill DICK!!
;D
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I was once a liberal leftist.
I found out how liberal leftists really feel about Jews and how they want us to hate ourselves.
Lubab will learn the hard way.
Or, not.
I knew (actually, was borderline in love with) a genius Christian theologian girl in college who eventually became a fanatical, goddess-worshiping pagan feminazi.
I was kind of sad about this at the time but, now I say, good riddance to this dreck.
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It is so unjewish to risk your life to save a person who disobeys Gd and hates His people. Let Gd decide if He should live.
When you show mercy to the cruel, it is the mercy of fools. you are acting like a fool. WAKE UP WAKE UP!!!!!!!!
Common sense stated in uncommon fashion.
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;)
Common sense stated in uncommon fashion.
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Guys. You can drop the attacks on me. My view is not set in stone yet. And we have not started feeding anybody. I came on here to get the other side of the story. I am NOT a person who likes to learn the hard way, as someone here said. That's why I don't make a move until it's really thought out or at least that's how I"d LIKE to live.
I'm not trying to convince you guys I don't think I ever will. I did however want to vent for a moment about CJD's early post to me. This was horrific. If you are Jewish or not you should be ashamed of yourself especially as a moderator. To have such hate for me personally when I have never in my life lifted a finger against you is vile. I've dealt with those with such hateful character traits as yours so I expect no apology or any soul searching but if I were you I would start soul searching into exactly why you hate me as a person so much and what you hoped to accomplish with your comments and did it get the desired result.
Anyway.
Back to the topic at hand. I'm still not clear on what to do but things are becoming more clear. I'm analyzing this from a TORAH perspective guys. Not a secular one. I'm not secular, and I wrote the title of my post intentionally in an incendiary way. But I"m not a leftist. I"m a Jew and try to be the best chassid of the lubavitcher rebbe I can.
So here is what i see. I see first of all that the source of all the problems in the middle east is that Israel does not have a Torah monorchy. So moshiach is the real answer.
In a Torah monorchy things would be simple. A carrot and a stick. You either accept and prove you practice the noahide laws which means an abandonment of support for bloodshed and pay a tax to the Jews and be subservient to the Jews, and if you do that you get the benefits of living in the land of Israel. Mas ve Avdut. If you're found to be violating any of the Noahide laws the punishment is death. You cannot vote us out, because it's a monarchy and there is no vote so that's the deal take it or leave it. Only truly righteous people can and will take it or that's the goal anyway.
So the situation is far more complicated as we want a Toah solution when the power in Israel is in the hands of haters of the Torah. (in large part NON JEWISH satan worshipin ROTHCHILDS and Satanic worshipping Sataniust like Shimon Perez may his name rot (although the Rebbe did try to get him to do teshuva) and f off for whatever names you want throw at me for that TRUTH
"conspiracy theorist" "loon or whatever....I"m not an idiot, i'm unbiased to the best of my ability, i do research and i've been studying this stuff for a lot longer than you if yo'uve studied it at all so step off. And look in the mirror...YOU GUYS are actually brainwashed in that you cannot spend 2 minutes thinking outside your box or questioning your own beliefs. what does that tell you? it tells you instilled with fear about thees topics. instilled by who? you weren't born this way i promise you that...think about [note: you won't think about it])
Further complicating the situation is our status in Israel. Many will be shocked to hear this but the Rebbe once said that if the point Neturei Karta was making wasn't being made by them we would have to go out into the streets and make the point ourselves.
Which point? Obviously not the point that we should grovel and kiss tuchus in front of our enemies. The point, and nobody in JTF wants to hear this, but the point of Zionism. That we have a G-d given right to Israel right now. The chabad rebbe were against this becauase it's simply not true in the galut. It's true in the times of Moshiach. And the zionists...if you do a little research did things in a very nasty unfair and untorah based way which we all know contributed to the current hatred)
Later the Rebbeim had to accept the fact that the Jews are there and we're not going anywhere. And we have a serious problem of merciless terrorists who have the support of basically every Arab.
Therefore, it is a danger to life, to comprimise as Chaim so clearly and correctly stated.
Therefor the Rebbe said to even mention giving up an inch of LAND. is showing weakness...and showing the terrorists they now have a better chance of winning if they continue blowing people up.
The rebbe was yelling at specifically leftist and corrupt rabbis who were ABANDONING the torah, ABANDONING our belief in the sacred nature of every Jewish life FOR MONEY.
At the same time the Rebbe has also said, as I mentioned that if Israel would fight the war in a way that was not peicemeal but rather extremely quick and decisive. it would save lives on BOTH sides.
So the Rebbe also recognized that even though we should not be giving away our strategic positions for a mirage of peace, but we should not be reckless with their lives EITHER. We should be careful to save life jewish or non jewish.
this to me is a real indication that Rebbe did not believe they are clear cut amalek or nazis. Amalek and nazis must be wiped out man woman and child.
And we know they are not clear cut amalek or nazis from I think all major rabbis in orthodox Judaism. i believe the reason for this is because the distinguishing feature of Amalek is they hate the Jews with absoultely no reason to hate the Jews.
The Arabs of Gaza, for all their vicious hatred could actually form a logical argument for the hate and usually when you speak to them it's not ONLY lies and propoganda...dont get me wrong they are very brainwashed.
but the propoganda is a lot easier to make in that they can point to the fact that they are boxed in in gaza, can't drive normally, can't vote, don't have running water while all the jews right over the border to etc etc. etc.
Disagree...but this is not the talk of pure amalek. listen to hitler and it's a very different line.
Now would they want to kill us all even if we removed all those reasons? Possibly. Which is why the issue is in doubt. But being in doubt, and being in the 21st centurty with all the complication an ethnic cleaning would bring.
We do not favor killing all arabs. and even JTF, despite attacking me for giving food, would actually be comfortable giving them money in exahange for leaving
well i think JTF is on the right track with that.
it's the best carrot and stick we can probably come up with under the circumstances.
and i think this is where i went wrong with my campaing. We can't just give out food to those arabs the way we give it out to Hindu's in India.
We can't be kind to the cruel as Chaim said.
At the same time...you can't just put people in a pressure cooker...and threaten them with death if they get out of line. what happens in any classroom if you put them in a pressure cooker and give them nowhere to go. they will eventually blow up. and that's what the leftists are saying. they WILL blow up if the conditions are bad enough so what do you expect
and i can show you a documentary about LITTLE ARAB KIDS trying to commit suicide. and it's a common problem now...and yeah...it's real
i don't care what you all say my heart goes out to those kids. and while i would never give up an inche of jewish security and an inch the Torah I do NOT think the torah wants little kids committing suicide in our watch.
So the questino is...is there any possible way to BOTH improve conditions...possibly removing the pressure cooker aspect....and at least open a door to some kind of truth and some possbility of teshuva (Yishmael did teshuva at one point) while at the same time ensuring we never embolden anyone to life a finger against a Jew...
My organization may be able to help with that.
And that is where i'm holding.
To explore if this is possible. and as the torah says. if you did not find and you said you searched. we dont believe you..
So I'll keep searching.
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" mosgiah is the real answer"
So what are you proposing? That people Jews and Arabs receive your dead Rebbe as the moshiah and all problems will be solved. Everyone will be "saved". Sounds very familiar with a different renegade sect who splitting off and eventually became the persecuters of Jews .
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" mosgiah is the real answer"
So what are you proposing? That people Jews and Arabs receive your dead Rebbe as the moshiah and all problems will be solved. Everyone will be "saved". Sounds very familiar with a different renegade sect who splitting off and eventually became the persecuters of Jews .
That would be nice. it's not like Xnianity where you are saved. What I meant was if you had a Torah jewish king he can execute people at will. it's practical.
Clearly my Rebbe is the leader on this issue already. Who else articulated what I said so well.i took it all from him.
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Lubab. Things need to be looked at historically and logically from a Torah perspective of what we are dealing with in regards to Jews and her enemies. The question is why does Gd give us so many unfathomable enemies and why are we a nation which will dwell alone? Do you know why? Because when we act alone to defeat our enemies, it shows everyone including our enemies that Hashem exists, we are His people, and the Torah which was given on Sinai is all true. Anything else would be a Chillul Hashem...a power vacuum which would make other nations think their gods and religion is the light on to other nations. (Just look at ISIS and Muslims and how Jews are pathetic today with being a light onto nations).
Certainly, we don't just pray for it to happen. We have to act Jewishly and have a strong and smart Jewish army. When we learn from our prophets, like Joshua, how he went to battle against every man woman and child in Canaan and commandments that came with it, you will understand why we should not compromise based on what antisemites think..or what the rest of the world thinks. I'm not suggesting we be blood thirsty..but there is a time to be chesed and a time to be deen. You can't just be chesed and can't just be deen. There is a lot in Talmud that Rabbi Kahane spoke about in this regard and you need to hear it and see it to understand that other perspective before you go out worrying about gentiles and feeding them and converting them to Noahidism.
Self love and self respect brings respect. The actions which you are prescribing for yourself to do, will not bring respect from anti semites..nor love..but perhaps resentment. Be a good Jew, help Jews, guide Jews, help Jews return to Judaism, feed starving Jews, rebuke unJewish behavior, learn Torah...this is your mission in life (and mine too). Let righteous gentiles worry about starving gentiles..and catholics worry about catholics and muslims worry about muslims, and turks worry about turks and Iran worry about Iranians. Your a Jew..worry about Jews..worry about your brothers and sisters. It's hard to be a Jew. Our energies should be towards them.
Lubab..I hope you respond to my points.
Guys. You can drop the attacks on me. My view is not set in stone yet. And we have not started feeding anybody. I came on here to get the other side of the story. I am NOT a person who likes to learn the hard way, as someone here said. That's why I don't make a move until it's really thought out or at least that's how I"d LIKE to live.
I'm not trying to convince you guys I don't think I ever will. I did however want to vent for a moment about CJD's early post to me. This was horrific. If you are Jewish or not you should be ashamed of yourself especially as a moderator. To have such hate for me personally when I have never in my life lifted a finger against you is vile. I've dealt with those with such hateful character traits as yours so I expect no apology or any soul searching but if I were you I would start soul searching into exactly why you hate me as a person so much and what you hoped to accomplish with your comments and did it get the desired result.
Anyway.
Back to the topic at hand. I'm still not clear on what to do but things are becoming more clear. I'm analyzing this from a TORAH perspective guys. Not a secular one. I'm not secular, and I wrote the title of my post intentionally in an incendiary way. But I"m not a leftist. I"m a Jew and try to be the best chassid of the lubavitcher rebbe I can.
So here is what i see. I see first of all that the source of all the problems in the middle east is that Israel does not have a Torah monorchy. So moshiach is the real answer.
In a Torah monorchy things would be simple. A carrot and a stick. You either accept and prove you practice the noahide laws which means an abandonment of support for bloodshed and pay a tax to the Jews and be subservient to the Jews, and if you do that you get the benefits of living in the land of Israel. Mas ve Avdut. If you're found to be violating any of the Noahide laws the punishment is death. You cannot vote us out, because it's a monarchy and there is no vote so that's the deal take it or leave it. Only truly righteous people can and will take it or that's the goal anyway.
So the situation is far more complicated as we want a Toah solution when the power in Israel is in the hands of haters of the Torah. (in large part NON JEWISH satan worshipin ROTHCHILDS and Satanic worshipping Sataniust like Shimon Perez may his name rot (although the Rebbe did try to get him to do teshuva) and f off for whatever names you want throw at me for that TRUTH
"conspiracy theorist" "loon or whatever....I"m not an idiot, i'm unbiased to the best of my ability, i do research and i've been studying this stuff for a lot longer than you if yo'uve studied it at all so step off. And look in the mirror...YOU GUYS are actually brainwashed in that you cannot spend 2 minutes thinking outside your box or questioning your own beliefs. what does that tell you? it tells you instilled with fear about thees topics. instilled by who? you weren't born this way i promise you that...think about [note: you won't think about it])
Further complicating the situation is our status in Israel. Many will be shocked to hear this but the Rebbe once said that if the point Neturei Karta was making wasn't being made by them we would have to go out into the streets and make the point ourselves.
Which point? Obviously not the point that we should grovel and kiss tuchus in front of our enemies. The point, and nobody in JTF wants to hear this, but the point of Zionism. That we have a G-d given right to Israel right now. The chabad rebbe were against this becauase it's simply not true in the galut. It's true in the times of Moshiach. And the zionists...if you do a little research did things in a very nasty unfair and untorah based way which we all know contributed to the current hatred)
Later the Rebbeim had to accept the fact that the Jews are there and we're not going anywhere. And we have a serious problem of merciless terrorists who have the support of basically every Arab.
Therefore, it is a danger to life, to comprimise as Chaim so clearly and correctly stated.
Therefor the Rebbe said to even mention giving up an inch of LAND. is showing weakness...and showing the terrorists they now have a better chance of winning if they continue blowing people up.
The rebbe was yelling at specifically leftist and corrupt rabbis who were ABANDONING the torah, ABANDONING our belief in the sacred nature of every Jewish life FOR MONEY.
At the same time the Rebbe has also said, as I mentioned that if Israel would fight the war in a way that was not peicemeal but rather extremely quick and decisive. it would save lives on BOTH sides.
So the Rebbe also recognized that even though we should not be giving away our strategic positions for a mirage of peace, but we should not be reckless with their lives EITHER. We should be careful to save life jewish or non jewish.
this to me is a real indication that Rebbe did not believe they are clear cut amalek or nazis. Amalek and nazis must be wiped out man woman and child.
And we know they are not clear cut amalek or nazis from I think all major rabbis in orthodox Judaism. i believe the reason for this is because the distinguishing feature of Amalek is they hate the Jews with absoultely no reason to hate the Jews.
The Arabs of Gaza, for all their vicious hatred could actually form a logical argument for the hate and usually when you speak to them it's not ONLY lies and propoganda...dont get me wrong they are very brainwashed.
but the propoganda is a lot easier to make in that they can point to the fact that they are boxed in in gaza, can't drive normally, can't vote, don't have running water while all the jews right over the border to etc etc. etc.
Disagree...but this is not the talk of pure amalek. listen to hitler and it's a very different line.
Now would they want to kill us all even if we removed all those reasons? Possibly. Which is why the issue is in doubt. But being in doubt, and being in the 21st centurty with all the complication an ethnic cleaning would bring.
We do not favor killing all arabs. and even JTF, despite attacking me for giving food, would actually be comfortable giving them money in exahange for leaving
well i think JTF is on the right track with that.
it's the best carrot and stick we can probably come up with under the circumstances.
and i think this is where i went wrong with my campaing. We can't just give out food to those arabs the way we give it out to Hindu's in India.
We can't be kind to the cruel as Chaim said.
At the same time...you can't just put people in a pressure cooker...and threaten them with death if they get out of line. what happens in any classroom if you put them in a pressure cooker and give them nowhere to go. they will eventually blow up. and that's what the leftists are saying. they WILL blow up if the conditions are bad enough so what do you expect
and i can show you a documentary about LITTLE ARAB KIDS trying to commit suicide. and it's a common problem now...and yeah...it's real
i don't care what you all say my heart goes out to those kids. and while i would never give up an inche of jewish security and an inch the Torah I do NOT think the torah wants little kids committing suicide in our watch.
So the questino is...is there any possible way to BOTH improve conditions...possibly removing the pressure cooker aspect....and at least open a door to some kind of truth and some possbility of teshuva (Yishmael did teshuva at one point) while at the same time ensuring we never embolden anyone to life a finger against a Jew...
My organization may be able to help with that.
And that is where i'm holding.
To explore if this is possible. and as the torah says. if you did not find and you said you searched. we dont believe you..
So I'll keep searching.
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" mosgiah is the real answer"
Tag- So what are you proposing? That people Jews and Arabs receive your dead Rebbe as the moshiah and all problems will be solved. Everyone will be "saved". Sounds very familiar with a different renegade sect who splitting off and eventually became the persecuters of Jews .
That would be nice. it's not like Xnianity where you are saved. What I meant was if you had a Torah jewish king he can execute people at will. it's practical.
Clearly my Rebbe is the leader on this issue already. Who else articulated what I said so well.i took it all from him.
:laugh: I saw right through you. This is all about your missionary activities. And about having a REAL Jewish King. Not one that died he won't have absolute sovereignty unlike you think in your paganistic mindset. The ultimate sovereign is G-D and not a man. Certainly not one who already died.
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I think this guy is a lost cause. Let him be one with his aliens and the saviors of his soul, Alex Jones and Jeff Rense.
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So the situation is far more complicated as we want a Toah solution when the power in Israel is in the hands of haters of the Torah. (in large part NON JEWISH satan worshipin ROTHCHILDS and Satanic worshipping Sataniust like Shimon Perez may his name rot (although the Rebbe did try to get him to do teshuva) and f off for whatever names you want throw at me for that TRUTH
"conspiracy theorist" "loon or whatever....I"m not an idiot, i'm unbiased to the best of my ability, i do research and i've been studying this stuff for a lot longer than you if yo'uve studied it at all so step off. And look in the mirror...YOU GUYS are actually brainwashed in that you cannot spend 2 minutes thinking outside your box or questioning your own beliefs. what does that tell you? it tells you instilled with fear about thees topics. instilled by who? you weren't born this way i promise you that...think about [note: you won't think about it])
See this is in part where you are woefully misguided and frankly, very disrespectful. You thumb your nose at every JTFer and say these extremely condescending. remarks basically telling us that we don't think we are blind sheep bla bla bla. We're all big boys and girls here so no one is going to be crying over your insults but you need a reality check. Many of us have considered the facts, have thought deeply about these issues and yet we came to different conclusions. Many here are baalei teshuva who began praticing Judaism after thinking deeply about it and life. Many here became rightwingers by evaluating prior beliefs and discarding them. You should show more respect for people here.
You are not the only person who thought about 9/11 and if only we would we would agree with your crazy conclusions. This is a delusion of grandeur and it is very commonly shared and often expressed by truthtards on the internet who believe in nutty 911 conspiracy theories. They claim: "We're the only ones who thought about this and once you think about it it's obvious and self evident truth. The blind sheeple are not enlightened and once I show them x y z they cannot argue, and if they do it's because theyre a Rothschild or a neocon or a silverstein".
The facts DO NOT support your conclusions and that is why we disagree. NOT because none of us bothered to count the number of seconds it takes the tower to fall (which btw is documented on video SLOWER than freefall speed).
It is bad enough you are considering the treasonous path of aiding our gazan nazi enemy...how dare you look down upon the members of this forum assuming us to be thoughtless and calling us mindless zombies who should quit questioning lubab the great intelletual because you spent endless hours ccoming to twisted and incorrect conclusions which you have adopted as your new beliefset.
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but the propoganda is a lot easier to make in that they can point to the fact that they are boxed in in gaza, can't drive normally, can't vote, don't have running water while all the jews right over the border to etc etc. etc.
Lies and nonsense. You have bought into the leftist propaganda and goebels-esque arab propaganda machine hook line and sinker. The obese gazans can drive wherever they want, Israel is not even in gaza anymore.. if a gazan's toilet gets clogged he blames Jews. A completely inept clearly evil and paranoid hateful society. Even though they danced in celebration when the Twin Towers collapsed, they also would agree with you it was an inside job and it was done by, who else, zionists and Jews. Gazans are not justified in their hatred of Jews and it is sickening that you and your organization think so.
I really don't care if gazans are amalek or not. There were many nations who were at war with the Jews and in the other commonwealth periods we fought them and it would have been treason to aid them. The Syrian greeks were not amalek, yet there is hanukkah. The romans were not amalek, yet there was a bar kochva revolt. The 7 nations were not amalek but Moshe instructed to fight them..
Vilna gaon said any nation who makes war against the Jewish people is defined as amalek. He did not qualify with having no (so-called) logic to their hate like u claimed.. but this is semantics and doesn't matter if they are amalek for the reaons I said above.
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Speaking of Jewish kings with the power to give capital punishment, I believe when we do have a Jewish king, he will probably put to death a person who worships him.
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Guys. You can drop the attacks on me. My view is not set in stone yet. And we have not started feeding anybody. I came on here to get the other side of the story. I am NOT a person who likes to learn the hard way, as someone here said. That's why I don't make a move until it's really thought out or at least that's how I"d LIKE to live.
I'm not trying to convince you guys I don't think I ever will. I did however want to vent for a moment about CJD's early post to me. This was horrific. If you are Jewish or not you should be ashamed of yourself especially as a moderator. To have such hate for me personally when I have never in my life lifted a finger against you is vile. I've dealt with those with such hateful character traits as yours so I expect no apology or any soul searching but if I were you I would start soul searching into exactly why you hate me as a person so much and what you hoped to accomplish with your comments and did it get the desired result.
Anyway.
Back to the topic at hand. I'm still not clear on what to do but things are becoming more clear. I'm analyzing this from a TORAH perspective guys. Not a secular one. I'm not secular, and I wrote the title of my post intentionally in an incendiary way. But I"m not a leftist. I"m a Jew and try to be the best chassid of the lubavitcher rebbe I can.
So here is what i see. I see first of all that the source of all the problems in the middle east is that Israel does not have a Torah monorchy. So moshiach is the real answer.
In a Torah monorchy things would be simple. A carrot and a stick. You either accept and prove you practice the noahide laws which means an abandonment of support for bloodshed and pay a tax to the Jews and be subservient to the Jews, and if you do that you get the benefits of living in the land of Israel. Mas ve Avdut. If you're found to be violating any of the Noahide laws the punishment is death. You cannot vote us out, because it's a monarchy and there is no vote so that's the deal take it or leave it. Only truly righteous people can and will take it or that's the goal anyway.
So the situation is far more complicated as we want a Toah solution when the power in Israel is in the hands of haters of the Torah. (in large part NON JEWISH satan worshipin ROTHCHILDS and Satanic worshipping Sataniust like Shimon Perez may his name rot (although the Rebbe did try to get him to do teshuva) and f off for whatever names you want throw at me for that TRUTH
"conspiracy theorist" "loon or whatever....I"m not an idiot, i'm unbiased to the best of my ability, i do research and i've been studying this stuff for a lot longer than you if yo'uve studied it at all so step off. And look in the mirror...YOU GUYS are actually brainwashed in that you cannot spend 2 minutes thinking outside your box or questioning your own beliefs. what does that tell you? it tells you instilled with fear about thees topics. instilled by who? you weren't born this way i promise you that...think about [note: you won't think about it])
Further complicating the situation is our status in Israel. Many will be shocked to hear this but the Rebbe once said that if the point Neturei Karta was making wasn't being made by them we would have to go out into the streets and make the point ourselves.
Which point? Obviously not the point that we should grovel and kiss tuchus in front of our enemies. The point, and nobody in JTF wants to hear this, but the point of Zionism. That we have a G-d given right to Israel right now. The chabad rebbe were against this becauase it's simply not true in the galut. It's true in the times of Moshiach. And the zionists...if you do a little research did things in a very nasty unfair and untorah based way which we all know contributed to the current hatred)
Later the Rebbeim had to accept the fact that the Jews are there and we're not going anywhere. And we have a serious problem of merciless terrorists who have the support of basically every Arab.
Therefore, it is a danger to life, to comprimise as Chaim so clearly and correctly stated.
Therefor the Rebbe said to even mention giving up an inch of LAND. is showing weakness...and showing the terrorists they now have a better chance of winning if they continue blowing people up.
The rebbe was yelling at specifically leftist and corrupt rabbis who were ABANDONING the torah, ABANDONING our belief in the sacred nature of every Jewish life FOR MONEY.
At the same time the Rebbe has also said, as I mentioned that if Israel would fight the war in a way that was not peicemeal but rather extremely quick and decisive. it would save lives on BOTH sides.
So the Rebbe also recognized that even though we should not be giving away our strategic positions for a mirage of peace, but we should not be reckless with their lives EITHER. We should be careful to save life jewish or non jewish.
this to me is a real indication that Rebbe did not believe they are clear cut amalek or nazis. Amalek and nazis must be wiped out man woman and child.
And we know they are not clear cut amalek or nazis from I think all major rabbis in orthodox Judaism. i believe the reason for this is because the distinguishing feature of Amalek is they hate the Jews with absoultely no reason to hate the Jews.
The Arabs of Gaza, for all their vicious hatred could actually form a logical argument for the hate and usually when you speak to them it's not ONLY lies and propoganda...dont get me wrong they are very brainwashed.
but the propoganda is a lot easier to make in that they can point to the fact that they are boxed in in gaza, can't drive normally, can't vote, don't have running water while all the jews right over the border to etc etc. etc.
Disagree...but this is not the talk of pure amalek. listen to hitler and it's a very different line.
Now would they want to kill us all even if we removed all those reasons? Possibly. Which is why the issue is in doubt. But being in doubt, and being in the 21st centurty with all the complication an ethnic cleaning would bring.
We do not favor killing all arabs. and even JTF, despite attacking me for giving food, would actually be comfortable giving them money in exahange for leaving
well i think JTF is on the right track with that.
it's the best carrot and stick we can probably come up with under the circumstances.
and i think this is where i went wrong with my campaing. We can't just give out food to those arabs the way we give it out to Hindu's in India.
We can't be kind to the cruel as Chaim said.
At the same time...you can't just put people in a pressure cooker...and threaten them with death if they get out of line. what happens in any classroom if you put them in a pressure cooker and give them nowhere to go. they will eventually blow up. and that's what the leftists are saying. they WILL blow up if the conditions are bad enough so what do you expect
and i can show you a documentary about LITTLE ARAB KIDS trying to commit suicide. and it's a common problem now...and yeah...it's real
i don't care what you all say my heart goes out to those kids. and while i would never give up an inche of jewish security and an inch the Torah I do NOT think the torah wants little kids committing suicide in our watch.
So the questino is...is there any possible way to BOTH improve conditions...possibly removing the pressure cooker aspect....and at least open a door to some kind of truth and some possbility of teshuva (Yishmael did teshuva at one point) while at the same time ensuring we never embolden anyone to life a finger against a Jew...
My organization may be able to help with that.
And that is where i'm holding.
To explore if this is possible. and as the torah says. if you did not find and you said you searched. we dont believe you..
So I'll keep searching.
Let's get one thing straight first off... I don't think anyone here at JTF most likely most of all me has anything personally against you... My only post to you in this thread was not all that that"horrific"... You knew when you started this thread most people here would think you lost your mind with ideas like the ones you put forward in this thread.... Or were you upset over me cautioning you to think about your personal safety dealing with such nice people over in Arab occupied Israel... If anyone has to do soul searching in my opinion it's you... The positions you take on issues on the day to day ground are not rooted in fact... They are not today and were not the last time you were active here at JTF... Clearly as this thread progressed it's not only me that has a problem with your way of seeing things... Anyway I just wanted to make it clear that I have nothing against you personally it's just that I must not be smart enough to see the larger picture as you seem to have an ability to do... Best of luck to you with your ideas of bringing aid and comfort to the arabs.