JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: judeanoncapta on August 30, 2007, 10:18:01 PM
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Rather than just attacking Dexter and the Karaites, I would prefer to answer some of the main contentions of the Karaites.
Let's quote from the main Karaite website shall we?
"Karaism is the original form of Judaism as prescribed by God in the Torah."
Well, that is their main contention. That we broke off from them. One would have to ignore Anan Ben David and the actual history of Karaitism to make such a statement. But let's now hear what they beleive this original form of Judaism was.
"Karaite Judaism rejects later additions to the Tanach (Jewish Bible) such as the Rabbinic Oral Law and places the ultimate responsibility of interpreting the Bible on each individual."
I'm wondering on what basis Karaites accepted additions to the Torah. Like Isaiah, Samuel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Kings and Chronicles. The irony is that both the Canon of the Tanakh and the Masoretic text is accepted by Karaites. Both the Canon and the Text is based solely on the word of the Sages of Israel or the Pharisees as they might like to call us.
Karaites are strange people.
They trust the Sages to tell them both what books are the Word of G-d and also what the original text of those books was but they balk when told by the Sages what the texts mean.
Imagine that.
As for the last part of the statement " the ultimate responsibility of interpreting the Bible on each individual."
Let's see what the Bible itself has to say about this.
Nehemiah Chapter 8
5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people--for he was above all the people--and when he opened it, all the people stood up.
Simple, Ezra is opening the Book of the Torah for the people and reading it. Remember that according to Karaitism, each member of that congregation was required to interpret the Law for the themselves and disregard any explanations that they disagreed with
6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered: 'Amen, Amen', with the lifting up of their hands; and they bowed their heads, and fell down before the LORD with their faces to the ground.
Wow, we should all read the Torah with such fervor.
7 Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, even the Levites, caused the people to understand the Law; and the people stood in their place.
Wait a second. This group of interesting people "caused the people to understand the Law."
How is that possible? Karaitism says that each Jew should rely on his own interpretation and not the interpretations of sages like "Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah"
Now the last part of the verse "and the people stood in their place."
That is an interesting thing to say. Because according to Karaitism, the people wouldn't be standing in their place. They would be shouting. Jumping up and down and telling Ezra and his friends that their interpretations are incorrect.
But that simply proves the ridiculousness of Karaitism.
Let's read the last verse relevant to this subject.
"8 And they read in the book, in the Law of God, distinctly; and they gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."
Think about what this says. Ezra and these sages "gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."
Ezra and the sages explained the Torah to them and the people listened.
If the Bible were written by Karaites, it would say. "And the people rejected the words of Ezra and Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah and each man (who is responsible for his own interpretation of the Torah as we all know) walked away to his own house interpretating the Torah in whatever way he wished."
I will come on and debunk more ridiculous Karaite contentions if need be but for now I will end with one last debunking.
Here's another quote from the Karaite website. "Karaism does not reject Biblical interpretation but rather holds every interpretation up to the same objective scrutiny regardless of its source."
Hmmm. Objective scrunity for ALL Biblical interpretations regardless of its source.
Sounds interesting until you keep reading their site and you find out that Karaites actually swear a daily allegiance oath to THEIR Biblical interpretations. Including their Abib interpretation which has NO TEXTUAL BASIS IN THE WRITTEN LAW WHATSOEVER.
Doesn't sound like objective scrutiny to me.
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Nobody has ANY comments on my whole argument.
Negative?
Positive?
Anything?
Maybe all of these argument about Karaism belong on the Torah section of the forum.
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Wow, you have posted the best argument I've ever seen about the Oral Law. I'm jealous that I didn't think of this. :o
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Thanks, I try.
Although I do think that Tovia Singer's arguments are pretty good as well.
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I love how you used the very text the Kairites claim to follow to disprove their entire ideology. ;D
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Thanks, I'm still laughing at some of their interpretations.
I've read a bunch of their websites. I actually find their stupidity amusing.
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So, the Karaites are the Jewish equivalent of Protestants?
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Apples and Oranges, my friend.
Apples and Oranges.
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I've heard others make these arguments about Written law vs Oral vs Rabbinical rulings.
That cult have gone to a lot of trouble just to eat cheeseburgers.
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This is interesting, are there any other Jews out there that aren't accepted as Jews by the larger Jewish community. (Yeah I know, but there's no other way to put together the sentence)
This is the first time I've heard of the existence of the Karaites, so now I'm curious, are there any others?
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As far as I know the rest have all intermarried and disappeared. Only 30k Karatites are left and many of them may not be Jewish.
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So there's no other unaccepted sects that you know of?
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Well, I just think it's funny that they claim to put all Biblical interpretations up to the same objective scrutiny and then they turn around and swear an allegiance oath 2 times a day to the interpretations that Karaites came up with hundreds of years after the Karaite movement started.
When you swear an allegiance oath to something you are by definition NOT putting it up to objective scrutiny.
Whatever, Karaites were once a large movement.
Now they're just a few thousand Egyptian Jews and a few nutballs who latch onto them.
We don't have much to worry about from them. Although losing Dexter to them would be a tragedy.
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It's interesting to me, that there are "other" Jews. I thought there was just us Jews, and everybody else.
The things you learn on the internet.
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So there's no other unaccepted sects that you know of?
Yeah, that's it. Unless you count the Reform, Conservative and Reconstuctionist Jews.
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There are fake Joos to look out for, too.
Js for J plus other 'messianics', and those goyim called Jos who reckon they're decended from the lost tribes.
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So there's no other unaccepted sects that you know of?
Yeah, that's it. Unless you count the Reform, Conservative and Reconstuctionist Jews.
Don't know enough about them to comment either, I know that Reformed are goy wannabes.
I'll be honest, I'm not religious at all, I don't practice, my poor dad tried but couldn't get it to stick with me, but I'm also not a hypocrite, if I were to practice I would do it properly, learn hebrew, etc. The reformed might as well become Christians since they're trying so hard to emulate them.
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There are fake Joos to look out for, too.
Js for J plus other 'messianics', and those goyim called Jos who reckon they're decended from the lost tribes.
You mean the Black Israelites aren't Jews!?! ;D
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There are fake Joos to look out for, too.
Js for J plus other 'messianics', and those goyim called Jos who reckon they're decended from the lost tribes.
You mean the Black Israelites aren't Jews!?! ;D
I forgot them, but they're not likely to fool anyone. They do stand out from the crowd.
Read about some messianics in Yesha recently. They dressed in orange like religious zionists and went to an army base. When the soldiers had gathered around for tea, they started with their crap. Gotta watch it now, you don't know who's who.
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The original Jews were not Black, contrary to what these two illiterate Jamaicans at my work tell me every bloody day.
The Bible says that certain people were black.
Moshe's wife. The slave who saved Jeremiah.
One doesn't go to China and point someone out in the crowd and say the oriental guy. Or Harlem and point one guy out and say"The black guy. or Utah and say "The white guy".
Since the bible points these people out as being black, obviously everyone else wasn't.
I'm sick and tired of having to tell this to these two moronic Jamaican who pester me at work about it.
But there is my argument against Black israelitism.
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The original Jews were not Black, contrary to what these two illiterate Jamaicans at my work tell me every bloody day.
The Bible says that certain people were black.
Moshe's wife. The slave who saved Jeremiah.
One doesn't go to China and point someone out in the crowd and say the oriental guy. Or Harlem and point one guy out and say"The black guy. or Utah and say "The white guy".
Since the bible points these people out as being black, obviously everyone else wasn't.
I'm sick and tired of having to tell this to these two moronic Jamaican who pester me at work about it.
But there is my argument against Black israelitism.
Just say "Yeah, right.......and Davey Crockey was a Chinaman!"
Imagine 'Black Hebrews' in the time of Moshe??
The egyptians wouldn't have got any work out of them for a start!
Although, come to think of it....wondering around aimlessly for 40 years with free food would have suited them.
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Maybe the Erev Rav were black since they wanted to go back to Egypt and try to find a way not to work, while Moses was making them build the Tabbernacle, walk in the wilderness for 40 yrs and fight wars. (just kidding) :D
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They don't have a heritage to be proud of so they try to steal other people's. It's really pathetic actually. I heard one of them say that ancient Greek civilization/Socrates and Plato was black. LOL, must really piss them off that when ancient Greece was coming out with great philosophers, cities of astonishing architecture, art and poetry, while their ancestors were running around naked throwing sharpened sticks at each other.
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Not that people on this forum need much convincing on the falseness of Black israelitism. ;D
But anyway, Good night y'all. ;)
Get some sleep. :P
That includes you as well, Newman.
You're not superhuman.
Get some rest.
4000 posts for G-d's sake. :o
We love you, newman, but please calm down, watch your health and get some sleep :laugh:
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Newman is okay, it's lunchtime in Australia. :D
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Another group similar to the Karaites is the Samaritans, which are centered around the city of Shekhem in Israel. They follow the 5 Books of Moses, but their Torah is a different version. They believe theirs is the original though.
Fascinating. There's only 700 of them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan)
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Just another lot claiming to be the 'real Israel'. Will it ever end?
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Hey, Dexter.
Now that you're online, please read the first post on this thread and I would like you to respond to my argument, please.
Either on the thread or in a private message.
Thank you.
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How about that hangs out on mt. gerizim and lives in Shechem
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The original Jews were not Black, contrary to what these two illiterate Jamaicans at my work tell me every bloody day.
The Bible says that certain people were black.
Moshe's wife. The slave who saved Jeremiah.
One doesn't go to China and point someone out in the crowd and say the oriental guy. Or Harlem and point one guy out and say"The black guy. or Utah and say "The white guy".
Since the bible points these people out as being black, obviously everyone else wasn't.
I'm sick and tired of having to tell this to these two moronic Jamaican who pester me at work about it.
But there is my argument against Black israelitism.
Sorry i'm comment on this old topic, but Moses wife wasn't black, acorrding to Rash"i, if i'm not mistaking, Kushit means at that verse "Pretty", Miriam wasn't happy that Moses took pretty woman for himself .
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Rashi never said that she WASN'T black. He determined that "Cushite" means beautiful through a gematria excercise that equates Cushite with a hebrew word for beautiful. The Torah never says that Zipporah was not Hamitic, only that her father Yitro was a Midianite.
Miriam's point of emphasising that his wife was Cushite has to do with the idea that although she was from the Midianite tribe, it should be known that Zipporah has Cushite blood. Nimrod was a Cushite who the sages believe built the Tower of Babel out of defiance to G-d, so it's because of his defiance that all Cushites have this association.
Cushites, Egyptians, and Canaanites are all derivative of Ham.
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Rashi never said that she WASN'T black. He determined that "Cushite" means beautiful through a gematria excercise that equates Cushite with a hebrew word for beautiful. The Torah never says that Zipporah was not Hamitic, only that her father Yitro was a Midianite.
Miriam's point of emphasising that his wife was Cushite has to do with the idea that although she was from the Midianite tribe, it should be known that Zipporah has Cushite blood. Nimrod was a Cushite who the sages believe built the Tower of Babel out of defiance to G-d, so it's because of his defiance that all Cushites have this association.
Cushites, Egyptians, and Canaanites are all derivative of Ham.
My mistake, Miriam angered because Moses deversed a beautiful woman .
Kushim in the torah dosn't always means "Kushim" literally, exmples :
*Amos 9:7
Are not you as the children of the Ethiopians (Kushim) unto me, O children of Israel, saith the Lord? did not I bring up Israel, out of the land of Egypt: and the Philistines out of Cappadocia, and the Syrians out of Cyrene?
**Jeremias 13:23
If the Ethiopian (Kushim) can change his skin, or the leopard his spots: you may also do well, when you have learned evil.
Acorrding to Rash"i, "Kushit" means pretty in "blind"(euphemism) (Sgi Nahor) .
BTW, if you can read hebrew, read more here :
http://daat.ac.il/daat//kitveyet/sde_chem/mazuz.htm
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The "black Israelites" are just another manifestation of black jelously and hatred of the Jews.
They are vicious anti-semites.
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The "black Israelites" are just another manifestation of black jelously and hatred of the Jews.
They are vicious anti-semites.
In general, Black Hebrews do not claim that the original Israelites were black. Their theory is that some Jews were exiled to Africa after the Destruction of the Temple ( Remember that Africa and Sinai were comunicated by the Suez isthmus). According to them, some Jews came to Africa and mixed with native blacks. They were later taken as slaves to America, and now want to live in Israel ( since according to their theory) they have Jewish ancestors. They live in Dimona and are a small minority, faithfull to the land and the State, even though they had to struggle for decades to be allowed to stay. I sincerely do not see any reason to hate them.
Their religion is quite strange, they celebrate Pesach ( the week without leaven), but have also added other customs.... the sugarless week ( in which they do not consume sugar), the week without cooking (in which the only eat raw vegetables).
etc. They also avoid to put fruits and vegetables in the same dish or bowl (perhaps because the Torah forbids to grow vgetables in the vine.......)
The base of their ideas seem to be too weak to be considered Jewish, but if they are faithfull and honest, what's the problem? There are many peacefull Goyshe minorities in Israel. Even the Torah provides the concept of a Guer Toshav ( a Goy who is allowed to live in Israel as far as he does not violate the Noahide Laws). Then.... what's the problem with them????? Just their black skin?????!
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The "black Israelites" are just another manifestation of black jelously and hatred of the Jews.
They are vicious anti-semites.
In general, Black Hebrews do not claim that the original Israelites were black. Their theory is that some Jews were exiled to Africa after the Destruction of the Temple ( Remember that Africa and Sinai were comunicated by the Suez isthmus). According to them, some Jews came to Africa and mixed with native blacks. They were later taken as slaves to America, and now want to live in Israel ( since according to their theory) they have Jewish ancestors. They live in Dimona and are a small minority, faithfull to the land and the State, even though they had to struggle for decades to be allowed to stay. I sincerely do not see any reason to hate them.
Their religion is quite strange, they celebrate Pesach ( the week without leaven), but have also added other customs.... the sugarless week ( in which they do not consume sugar), the week without cooking (in which the only eat raw vegetables).
etc. They also avoid to put fruits and vegetables in the same dish or bowl (perhaps because the Torah forbids to grow vgetables in the vine.......)
The base of their ideas seem to be too weak to be considered Jewish, but if they are faithfull and honest, what's the problem? There are many peacefull Goyshe minorities in Israel. Even the Torah provides the concept of a Guer Toshav ( a Goy who is allowed to live in Israel as far as he does not violate the Noahide Laws). Then.... what's the problem with them????? Just their black skin?????!
No, they claim that the original Hebrews were blacks, and that they are the original Hebrews .
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Perhaps you are confused with other Black cults, or the opinion of SOME Black Hebrews. The great majority of Black Hebrews only say that they are a mix of Africans and Jews.
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Perhaps you are confused with other Black cults, or the opinion of SOME Black Hebrews. The great majority of Black Hebrews only say that they are a mix of Africans and Jews.
They are saying they are one of the 10 lost tribes, and at 700 B.C.E they exiled to Africa and than the Americans took as slaves, and they are the only Hebrews that are actually Hebrews, and all others are not Hebrews but a mixed people of Europeans, Arabs and more .
Besides, they think that the white men is the Satan, and they are extream racist .
Anyway, they are not considered as Jews at all .
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It is obvious that they can't be accepted as Jews, since there is no way to trace their matrilineal genealogy but.... why not letting them live in peace un Dimona as Gentiles? Then let them believe what they want in their private lives.
Rather take care of the 1000000 Arabs who live inside Israel, inside the Green line, and those other millions in Yesha, who claim Israel is Arab Land, and want to destroy the Jews. They even place fhotos of suicide murderers in the streets of Jewish cities. And they have Israeli citizenship. Really sad!
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It is obvious that they can't be accepted as Jews, since there is no way to trace their matrilineal genealogy but.... why not letting them live in peace un Dimona as Gentiles? Then let them believe what they want in their private lives.
Rather take care of the 1000000 Arabs who live inside Israel, inside the Green line, and those other millions in Yesha, who claim Israel is Arab Land, and want to destroy the Jews. They even place fhotos of suicide murderers in the streets of Jewish cities. And they have Israeli citizenship. Really sad!
Becuase they are racist against every non-black, that's why !
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Becuase they are racist against every non-black, that's why !
I wouldn't care about what they are, even if some were racist. They haven't caused any problem in Israel!!!!! In the firsts years of the State of Israel, it was said there was a kind mutual racism, at some degree, between Askenazim and Sepharadim, also. And that was said by a Rav, not by me!