Jersualem braces for protests over car park open on Saturdays

[muman613]

I apologize for my tone. I have been studying for the last few hours and I have realized that I am approaching this issue incorrectly. My only desire is to bring my fellow Jew to honor and elevate Hashems name in this world. It bothers me all this division within our people. I realize that the spiritual aspect of Judaism is not attractive to all of the people of our heritage. It is wrong to prematurely judge our fellow Jews harshly, and I always attempt to give the benefit of the doubt, and to judge favorably my people.

My personal story is complex and I have led a very secular life until about seven years ago. I have learned so much in this time and I have seen so much of Hashems hand in my life and I have absolute faith that we, the Jews, have a unique destiny in this world. We should be motivated to expose the light which the Creator has bestowed on us, to reveal the glory of Hashems mastery of the world.

I can only suggest that you search yourself for the truth and to look at our forefathers who have established the laws and the customs which we observe today. These people were not fools. These people are our sages, the likes of Rambam, Ramban, Rashi, The Vilna Goan, Chofetz Chaim, and there are many others. Do not just write them off. Do not dismiss them as old fools who are seeking power. The Rabbis are the thing which keeps the Jewish people Jewish. I do not believe we are just like the other nations. I see and feel the difference and understand why Hashem placed these sages into our midst.

Do not judge me harshly as I seek to be like Aaron, a man of peace, and like Pinchas, who is also a man of peace. Read this Shabbats parasha to learn why we call Pinchas a man of peace.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Don't get me wrong. I don't advocate that anybody violates the Sabbath. I am not unsympathetic to the angered haredim. I just wish that they would stop being anti-Zionists, and would throw all of their might into resisting and fighting whenever the kapo government of Israel proposes handing land over to the devil. If they would start resisting surrenders and ethnic cleansings the way Hayamin does, it would be a LOT harder for the Nazi regime that currently rules the holy land to implement its agenda. They have the numbers and the organization to make the Israeli right a force to be reckoned with.

[muman613]

Don't get me wrong. I don't advocate that anybody violates the Sabbath. I am not unsympathetic to the angered haredim. I just wish that they would stop being anti-Zionists, and would throw all of their might into resisting and fighting whenever the kapo government of Israel proposes handing land over to the devil. If they would start resisting surrenders and ethnic cleansings the way Hayamin does, it would be a LOT harder for the Nazi regime that currently rules the holy land to implement its agenda. They have the numbers and the organization to make the Israeli right a force to be reckoned with.

HI,

I mostly agree with you... BUT... We all agree that the current Israeli government is not righteous in the least. Why should someone join an army which is not righteous and will be used {or not used} to carry out operations to evict Jews? Or maybe they will not be used to protect Jewish citizens in their own land. I don't really support joining such a military, just like some here have warned White Israelite to be wary of joining while Obama is president.

I believe all Jews, including Haredi, would fight to protect the land that they live in. I may be wrong but I have a feeling that a Jew will fight to live in his land.

[Teutonic Knight]

Don't get me wrong. I don't advocate that anybody violates the Sabbath. I am not unsympathetic to the angered haredim. I just wish that they would stop being anti-Zionists, and would throw all of their might into resisting and fighting whenever the kapo government of Israel proposes handing land over to the devil. If they would start resisting surrenders and ethnic cleansings the way Hayamin does, it would be a LOT harder for the Nazi regime that currently rules the holy land to implement its agenda. They have the numbers and the organization to make the Israeli right a force to be reckoned with.

HI,

I mostly agree with you... BUT... We all agree that the current Israeli government is not righteous in the least. Why should someone join an army which is not righteous and will be used {or not used} to carry out operations to evict Jews? Or maybe they will not be used to protect Jewish citizens in their own land. I don't really support joining such a military, just like some here have warned White Israelite to be wary of joining while Obama is president.

I believe all Jews, including Haredi, would fight to protect the land that they live in. I may be wrong but I have a feeling that a Jew will fight to live in his land.

Muman, Israel needs an army. Who's going to protect Israelis against Hezbollah, Hamas, etc? There has to be a compromise here.

[Yonah]

It's admirable that you can follow the Rabbinical Judaism to great degree. Many Jews, however, cannot, and not for lack of respect of Hashem or for lack of want, but simply because it is impractical and, indeed, impossible in some cases.

While I'd like to be as observant as possible, it is only acceptable for me to follow what I consider to be the spirit of the law, which involves avoiding work, which I define as stuff I do not want to do.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

As a Gentile, halacha matters are none of my business. I have read my Bible and am well-aware of the case of the man who was gathering wood who was stoned to death for violating G-d's commandment on the Sabbath. However, I don't feel it's my place to demand that Jews be observant. I do wish they would stop being so secular, because the G-dless, Hellenistic, relativistic Westernized mindset of most Israelis is the reason that the Chosen Nation has been gradually committing suicide ever since 1967, but I myself don't feel comfortable getting involved in mitzvot debates.

All I will say is, again, I wish the haredim would violently fight every single abomination being perpetrated by the Israeli state, rather than the same couple ones over and over again.

[Spectator]

Where in the Torah does it say I cannot drive a motor vehicle on Shabbat? I won't work or drive for the purpose of work, but that's not going to prevent me from driving.

It's admirable that you can follow the Rabbinical Judaism to great degree. Many Jews, however, cannot, and not for lack of respect of Hashem or for lack of want, but simply because it is impractical and, indeed, impossible in some cases.

Judaism IS rabbinical. There is no alternative. G-d authorizes Rabbis to interprete the Law.

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8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which the LORD thy G-d shall choose. 

9 And thou shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and thou shalt inquire; and they shall declare unto thee the sentence of judgment. 

10 And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence, which they shall declare unto thee from that place which the LORD shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee. 

11 According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left. 
*******************************************************************************
Deuteronomy 17, 8-11.

If you want to understand the logic of rabbis that forbade driving a car on Shabbat, it is a very good intention. It is pure Torah study, which is a great mitzvah.  You can ask a rabbi to explain it to you, ask him all the hard questions you have.

But if one uses his/her intelligence to find an excuse not to do what the rabbis say, it is a great sin. By this apporoach one can easily find excuses not to perform any commandment one does not like, including those concerning the Land of Israel.

[Spectator]

Where in the Torah does it say I cannot drive a motor vehicle on Shabbat? I won't work or drive for the purpose of work, but that's not going to prevent me from driving. Nor do I refrain from tying my shoes and engaging in other non-laborious activities.

Are you being funny? You realize there are 39 melachot in Torah which we are prohibited from engaging in... One of the BIG ONES is creating a fire... Doesn't your car use a spark to create a fire in the engine block? You are burning when you are driving your car... Also there is a prohibition on traveling and carrying on Shabbat...

This is interpretation and not literalism. The Torah expressly forbids the kindling of fire in one's habitation on the Sabbath day. I kindle no fires in my home on the Sabbath - usually.

Literalism is not Jewish. It is Karaite. Karaim were a sect that rejected the Oral law. They are not considered Jewish today.
Even Nazis understood that. When they conquered Crimea peninsula in 1941, they massacred all the Jews but didn't do anything to the Karaites.

I say usually because I still take hot showers, which requires the boiler. I also heat the home. There have been days where it was -35 Celsius outside (about the same in Fahrenheit) and I had to turn the heat up, or at the very least, leave it on. I know not what would have happen if had I turned it off, but the pipe may well have burst.

This problem is not as hard as it seems Have you ever heard of Shaon Shabbat (Shabbat Clock) ? You can use it to set any electricity appliance to work at the hours you wish. It turns them on and off automatically.

Simple shaon shabbat


Digital shaon shabbat (has many additional functions)

[Yonah]

Karaites are Jews according to the Rambam, and a lot have made Aliyah to Israel, so they're Jewish as far as the law of return is concerned.

If you want to understand the logic of rabbis that forbade driving a car on Shabbat, it is a very good intention. It is pure Torah study, which is a great mitzvah.  You can ask a rabbi to explain it to you, ask him all the hard questions you have.

I'll ask a reform rabbi.

I say usually because I still take hot showers, which requires the boiler. I also heat the home. There have been days where it was -35 Celsius outside (about the same in Fahrenheit) and I had to turn the heat up, or at the very least, leave it on. I know not what would have happen if had I turned it off, but the pipe may well have burst.

This problem is not as hard as it seems Have you ever heard of Shaon Shabbat (Shabbat Clock) ? You can use it to set any electricity appliance to work at the hours you wish. It turns them on and off automatically.

It's not all too difficult to refrain from small appliances, but climate control is another matter altogether.

[Spectator]

Karaites are Jews according to the Rambam, and a lot have made Aliyah to Israel, so they're Jewish as far as the law of return is concerned.

I am not sure whether the law of return allows immigration of Karaites to Israel, but in any case this law is not the criterion who is Jewish. 

[Dr. Dan]

Free parking especially in Jerusalem during Shabbat is VERY inappropriate and DOES reward unholy acts during Shabbat such as driving.

While I'm not on the side of these protesting ultraOrthodox Jews simply for their smugness on many issues and who sometimes single handedly make Judaism look undesirable to less religious Jews who otherwise love their religion, their right to protest in the way they are doing for the more important issue is appropriate..It brings attention to the issue of driving on Shabbat and why it shouldn't be done in ISrael especially Jerusalem..If they didn't protest violently, it might have not gotten in the newspaper.

[Dr. Dan]

Where in the Torah does it say I cannot drive a motor vehicle on Shabbat? I won't work or drive for the purpose of work, but that's not going to prevent me from driving. Nor do I refrain from tying my shoes and engaging in other non-laborious activities.

Are you being funny? You realize there are 39 melachot in Torah which we are prohibited from engaging in... One of the BIG ONES is creating a fire... Doesn't your car use a spark to create a fire in the engine block? You are burning when you are driving your car... Also there is a prohibition on traveling and carrying on Shabbat...

This is interpretation and not literalism. The Torah expressly forbids the kindling of fire in one's habitation on the Sabbath day. I kindle no fires in my home on the Sabbath - usually.

I say usually because I still take hot showers, which requires the boiler. I also heat the home. There have been days where it was -35 Celsius outside (about the same in Fahrenheit) and I had to turn the heat up, or at the very least, leave it on. I know not what would have happen if had I turned it off, but the pipe may well have burst. Even were I to install an electrical heating system at tremendous cost to myself, I would still have had to avail myself of electricity generated by the combustion of coal.

If burning is taken to mean the chemical reaction between a fuel and an oxidant, then this occurs at a cellular level and is unavoidable in living humans. Therefore, I presume that this definition is by no means intended, and I stick to exactly what the Torah says and not all speculation within the realm of possibility.

Listen Yonah..I'm in the same boat as you, but please don't justify your shomer shabatness or that you're in you religious right and that Judaism allows US for doing these things on Shabbat..We aren't supposed to..Driving is an act of kindling fire.  I drive on Shabbat..I awknowledge it's not appropriate to do so for Jews...end of story..You're not a Rabbi to justify any of these things...these things are wrong to do.

[Dr. Dan]

Muman, you make all good points insofar as your description of the importance of Shabbat and I respect you for that. What I am saying it is my business and not yours or anyone else what I am doing on Shabbat. Of course you wont agree, that is why Judaism and State if Israel should be separate, while the state should obviously carry Jewish religious attributes and promote them without imposing them on its citizen or private enterprises.

PS - As far as driving on Shabbat or using electricity - think of ignition switch as my Shabbat Goy.

I agree with you..it is in no one's right to force any Jew to practice Judaism..this is the point of view of Chaim as well.  The best way to make Jews shomer Shabbat is by encouraging it and through education glorifying Shomer Shabbat...in that right, you or me as an individual has the right to be what we want to be in the privacy of our homes.

[Spectator]

Karaites are Jews according to the Rambam, and a lot have made Aliyah to Israel, so they're Jewish as far as the law of return is concerned.

If you want to understand the logic of rabbis that forbade driving a car on Shabbat, it is a very good intention. It is pure Torah study, which is a great mitzvah.  You can ask a rabbi to explain it to you, ask him all the hard questions you have.

I'll ask a reform rabbi.

In this case, don't ask anyone.  Reformism has nothing to do with Judaism. It is the institutionalization of sin. I am happy that secular Israelis understand that too.

In 19th century, the reformists threw the words about the Return to Zion and Jerusalem from the prayer. They were saying that this idea is outdated and impractical.

I say usually because I still take hot showers, which requires the boiler. I also heat the home. There have been days where it was -35 Celsius outside (about the same in Fahrenheit) and I had to turn the heat up, or at the very least, leave it on. I know not what would have happen if had I turned it off, but the pipe may well have burst.

This problem is not as hard as it seems Have you ever heard of Shaon Shabbat (Shabbat Clock) ? You can use it to set any electricity appliance to work at the hours you wish. It turns them on and off automatically.

It's not all too difficult to refrain from small appliances, but climate control is another matter altogether.

It is the very same matter. The point is that you program the system before Shabbat and it does all the changes automatically. I don't know whether your system allows it but there are defenitely ones that do have such functionality.

[Yonah]

I was just joking about asking a reform rabbi 

I say usually because I still take hot showers, which requires the boiler. I also heat the home. There have been days where it was -35 Celsius outside (about the same in Fahrenheit) and I had to turn the heat up, or at the very least, leave it on. I know not what would have happen if had I turned it off, but the pipe may well have burst.

This problem is not as hard as it seems Have you ever heard of Shaon Shabbat (Shabbat Clock) ? You can use it to set any electricity appliance to work at the hours you wish. It turns them on and off automatically.

It's not all too difficult to refrain from small appliances, but climate control is another matter altogether.

It is the very same matter. The point is that you program the system before Shabbat and it does all the changes automatically. I don't know whether your system allows it but there are defenitely ones that do have such functionality.

You live in Israel, right? Do you have air conditioning? Do you shut it off in the heat of summer for Shabbat?

If I shut the heat off at the wrong time, my pipes could freeze and burst or my tenants could die (or at the very least leave and deprive me of some income).

[muman613]

I was just joking about asking a reform rabbi 

I say usually because I still take hot showers, which requires the boiler. I also heat the home. There have been days where it was -35 Celsius outside (about the same in Fahrenheit) and I had to turn the heat up, or at the very least, leave it on. I know not what would have happen if had I turned it off, but the pipe may well have burst.

This problem is not as hard as it seems Have you ever heard of Shaon Shabbat (Shabbat Clock) ? You can use it to set any electricity appliance to work at the hours you wish. It turns them on and off automatically.

It's not all too difficult to refrain from small appliances, but climate control is another matter altogether.

It is the very same matter. The point is that you program the system before Shabbat and it does all the changes automatically. I don't know whether your system allows it but there are defenitely ones that do have such functionality.

You live in Israel, right? Do you have air conditioning? Do you shut it off in the heat of summer for Shabbat?

If I shut the heat off at the wrong time, my pipes could freeze and burst or my tenants could die (or at the very least leave and deprive me of some income).

Hi Yonah,

we have said that halacha permits using a Shabbat clock which can be programmed to turn appliances on and off at certain times. It is also OK, I believe , to use a thermostat which can automatically turn on an air conditioner when the temperature goes over a certain value.

There is also the idea of pikuie nefesh {to save a life} which allows anyone to transgress a mitzvah in order to save a life {there are boundries for this concept too}. If you felt that people may die if the heater is not on then you can turn on or light any fire.

http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/26/Q1/
http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm

 All of these tasks are prohibited, as well as any task that operates by the same principle or has the same purpose. In addition, the rabbis have prohibited handling any implement that is intended to perform one of the above purposes (for example, a hammer, a pencil or a match) unless the tool is needed for a permitted purpose (using a hammer to crack nuts when nothing else is available) or needs to be moved to do something permitted (moving a pencil that is sitting on a prayer book), or in certain other limited circumstances. Objects that may not be handled on Shabbat are referred to as "muktzeh," which means, "that which is set aside," because you set it aside (and don't use it unnecessarily) on Shabbat.

The rabbis have also prohibited travel, buying and selling, and other weekday tasks that would interfere with the spirit of Shabbat. The use of electricity is prohibited because it serves the same function as fire or some of the other prohibitions, or because it is technically considered to be "fire."

The issue of the use of an automobile on Shabbat, so often argued by non-observant Jews, is not really an issue at all for observant Jews. The automobile is powered by an internal combustion engine, which operates by burning gasoline and oil, a clear violation of the Torah prohibition against kindling a fire. In addition, the movement of the car would constitute transporting an object in the public domain, another violation of a Torah prohibition, and in all likelihood the car would be used to travel a distance greater than that permitted by rabbinical prohibitions. For all these reasons, and many more, the use of an automobile on Shabbat is clearly not permitted.

As with almost all of the commandments, all of these Shabbat restrictions can be violated if necessary to save a life.

In closing I agree that protesting in such a way is not a kiddush Hashem and is not beneficial to the cause. It does bring the issue to discussion and I hope that some may realize how important Shabbat is to Jewish continuity.

[Yonah]

It's not really to "save a life," I'm exaggerating a little, but I would be liable to a fine if I allowed the temperature inside the building to drop below 18 degrees Celsius during the winter.

What about an electric car, if not charge on Shabbat?

Do all orthodox authorities agree on the prohibition against driving, or are there are a few who consider it acceptable to drive to say, attend public services if it is otherwise not possible to attend public services?

[Dr. Dan]

It's not really to "save a life," I'm exaggerating a little, but I would be liable to a fine if I allowed the temperature inside the building to drop below 18 degrees Celsius during the winter.

What about an electric car, if not charge on Shabbat?

Do all orthodox authorities agree on the prohibition against driving, or are there are a few who consider it acceptable to drive to say, attend public services if it is otherwise not possible to attend public services?

my understanding is that it is only the non orthodox movements that say it's ok to drive on shabbat.

[Spectator]

You live in Israel, right? Do you have air conditioning? Do you shut it off in the heat of summer for Shabbat?

I use shabbat clock to control air my conditioner. I usually set it to work from 7.00 PM to 9.00 AM. Actually I do it only in winter to turn the system for heating because it's rather cold in Jerusalem in winter.

In summer the heat doesn't bother me much, it's the bright sun beams that I can't stand, not the heat itself

[Manch]

To a secular Jew like me, the fact that you use a clock, a contraption or a person (Shabbat Goy) to perform the same task as I, seems superfluous, at best. I can use an ignition key to do the same - after all, I don't burn anything, it is the ignition key that instructed the alternator to start the engine. I can hardly see how this makes you more spiritual. I don't want to pass a judgment, in fact I respect your ingenuity, but I can hardly admire it.

[muman613]

To a secular Jew like me, the fact that you use a clock, a contraption or a person (Shabbat Goy) to perform the same task as I, seems superfluous, at best. I can use an ignition key to do the same - after all, I don't burn anything, it is the ignition key that instructed the alternator to start the engine. I can hardly see how this makes you more spiritual. I don't want to pass a judgment, in fact I respect your ingenuity, but I can hardly admire it.

It must be because you don't understand the sanctity of Shabbat, and the mindset of seperating yourself from the physical world. Shabbat is a taste of the world to come, and we are not to do any creative labor on this day. And on Shabbat we are to pursue spiritual aims, like davening and Torah reading, and enjoying the meals in a festive mood. Electricity, cars, phones, and other gadgets detract from the spirit of Shabbat... I hope that someday you can enjoy the beauty of the gift which Hashem gave to the Jewish people. It is more than restriction, it is freedom from this physical world...

[Manch]

To a secular Jew like me, the fact that you use a clock, a contraption or a person (Shabbat Goy) to perform the same task as I, seems superfluous, at best. I can use an ignition key to do the same - after all, I don't burn anything, it is the ignition key that instructed the alternator to start the engine. I can hardly see how this makes you more spiritual. I don't want to pass a judgment, in fact I respect your ingenuity, but I can hardly admire it.

It must be because you don't understand the sanctity of Shabbat, and the mindset of seperating yourself from the physical world. Shabbat is a taste of the world to come, and we are not to do any creative labor on this day. And on Shabbat we are to pursue spiritual aims, like davening and Torah reading, and enjoying the meals in a festive mood. Electricity, cars, phones, and other gadgets detract from the spirit of Shabbat... I hope that someday you can enjoy the beauty of the gift which Hashem gave to the Jewish people. It is more than restriction, it is freedom from this physical world...

Ok, I agree with you - no point of arguing that, your interpretation is valid. My point - let me do what I please, because this just doesn't work for me. Let me park my car on Shabbat. Let me go to the gym. Let me take my kids to the zoo. My private affairs are really none of anyone's business.

[Spectator]

To a secular Jew like me, the fact that you use a clock, a contraption or a person (Shabbat Goy) to perform the same task as I, seems superfluous, at best. I can use an ignition key to do the same - after all, I don't burn anything, it is the ignition key that instructed the alternator to start the engine. I can hardly see how this makes you more spiritual. I don't want to pass a judgment, in fact I respect your ingenuity, but I can hardly admire it.

It must be because you don't understand the sanctity of Shabbat, and the mindset of seperating yourself from the physical world. Shabbat is a taste of the world to come, and we are not to do any creative labor on this day. And on Shabbat we are to pursue spiritual aims, like davening and Torah reading, and enjoying the meals in a festive mood. Electricity, cars, phones, and other gadgets detract from the spirit of Shabbat... I hope that someday you can enjoy the beauty of the gift which Hashem gave to the Jewish people. It is more than restriction, it is freedom from this physical world...

Ok, I agree with you - no point of arguing that, your interpretation is valid. My point - let me do what I please, because this just doesn't work for me. Let me park my car on Shabbat. Let me go to the gym. Let me take my kids to the zoo. My private affairs are really none of anyone's business.

Nobody can force you to observe Shabbat or other mitzvot. You have the freedom of choice given to you by the Creator and nobody has the right to limit it while your actions do not cause harm to the others. Therefore nobody can knock at your door, come in and check if you eat kosher food or observe Shabbat. It is indeed your private affair.
 
But driving a car on Shabbat through the center of the Holy City, crowded by observant Jews, and parking it in front of the ruins of G-d's Temple is not a private affair. This action insults the feelings of the observant Jews and destroys the unique Jerusalem Shabbat atmosphere.

It is noteworthy that the politicians who support the idea to open THAT parking are far-left traitors. It is clear why namely THEY support it. No, they don't give a damn about the comfort of ordinary secular Jews. They FEAR and HATE Jerusalem and its unique spirituality, and want to undermine it by any means. That's the same people are lobbying gay parades in the Holy City.