Worthwhile?

[Ari]

I received an email from these guys about their Turkey Ball.  I probably can't go, but I believe they have an even bigger one around Christmas time.  Do you guys think this would be a worthwhile excursion, or are these people without morals?  Check it out!

www.letmypeoplego.com

[Lisa]

I've been to some of their events.  They are usually held in dark, crowded, noisy nightclubs. 

I suppose it couldn't hurt for you to go with some friends.  If you don't like it, you can just leave. 

[RationalThought110]

I assume their turkey wouldn't be kosher. You shouldn't go. JTF only approves of modest dating for marriage.

If you click on the link, you'll notice who scheduled this event.

[Kiwi]

(what are you, an animal that needs to do a mating dance to impress the female?)

Yes but some can be very entertaining

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

No dont go. All of these events are all non-sense. Even if they tell you that a Rabbi will be their and kosher food, know that its all non-sense. These are just tools for the Sitra Ahra (evil side, whateva) to get Jews to do all of these sins. If you really believe in G-d it would be better to lock yourself in your room reading Tehillim (in order to find a good girl) then going to all of this non-sense.
 Their are a number of events like these, also one recently in Queens College (which thank G-d I didnt go), they allure Jews (even some religious) to come. They say their will be good food, good music, your cultural heritage, even a few Rabbis their (hek giving a speach also), but then (from what I hear) it slowly moves from one thing to another. From people hanging out to boys and girls dancing, then even a belly dancing show.
 Then what happens? People tell me, whats the big deal, a Rabbi was their. Dont be such a zealot, how will you ever get married if you dont socialize? You have to do these things becuase that the way society is, and all the other BS. - these are all tools of the Sitra AhRa (G-d forbid) trying to get Jews to commit sins (G-d forbid).

[jdl4ever]

Tzvi Ben Roshel, I disagree with you.  Any event that mixes Jewish boys and girls is very good for marriage and have a high success rate.  My parents went to these in the 1970's before they got into this Cheredi nonsense and these event had very high success rates and my parents met people to date at all the events.   That's the problem with the dating crisis today, the Charedi Yeshivas got literally crazy and veered away from previous generations and tell you to not even speak to a Jewish girl, or even go to a mixed college, and then they are surprised when many Jews are having difficulty getting married.  It's their own fault.  I hear their singles events consist of women and men sitting seperatly listening to a lecture.  That is not a singles event.  Singles events must mix men and women together. 

[jdl4ever]

There should be mixed events but they should be Shomer Negiah. Do you agree?

I agree.  I also think for non observant Jews they should make non-Shomer Negiah events so they would marry Jews and not intermarry.

[jdl4ever]

Are you Shomer Negiah?

I consider myself Shomer Negiah but not to the extreme.  When I date a girl I don't touch them.  But I do shake hands with women when it is necessary to be courteous and I do examine women patients in the hospital.  If I do get engaged, I have no problem touching the girl or hugging her, just nothing provocative. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

There should be mixed events but they should be Shomer Negiah. Do you agree?

I agree.  I also think for non observant Jews they should make non-Shomer Negiah events so they would marry Jews and not intermarry.

I agree first part, but not second part. Their shouldn't be compromises by saying ooh if your not religious you can touch and dance etc. Their is one Torah truth and we cant allow compromise to some kid becuase he wants to do what he feels like doing. What are you going to say next encourage them to have xxx just not to intermarry?  
 People you dont understand that all of these events and even trips is not allowed. for example look at how disgusting Birthright is. When people go to Israel they are taken to all of these clubs and their drinking and doing all of the other garbage all in the name of soo called  connecting to Israel? Then we ask why G-d brings terror attacks to kids expecially in the clubs in Tel-Aviv.
 I understand that people want to do the Mitzva of marrying a Jewish man and a Jewish women. BUT the way to do that is not by making all of these partyies, which actually psychologically give the green light for people to then later go clubbin, etc. (and even if they allready do) to justify it, and not make Tishuva.
  This is actually similar to what happened in Parsha Pinhas, where Pinhas kills Zimri and his girl. Zimri didnt take her necessarily becuase of lust (he was a prince of a tribe (Shimon) he could have gotten allmost any Jewish girl he wanted. What he was doing is saying okay now he will take the lady from the other nation and bring her in to the Israelite tents, and kosher something that's not allowed. He was trying to reform something not allowed.

[jdl4ever]

Tzvi, Shomer Negiah is beyond the letter of the law and is not required, so we are not making a separate Torah for the not religious Jews, we are using the same Torah but we ourselves chose to go beyond the letter of the law.  We are not allowed to force our fellow Jews to go beyond the letter of the Torah, this is the negative commandment of going to the right of what the Torah commands which is a very severe sin.  If we chose to so on our own that is fine, but we can not make up our own Torah and force others to go beyond what the Torah requires.  The Torah allows mixed dancing and men and women going out to clubs.  If you and me don't want to do it because we want to go beyond the letter of the law (yes, I also don't do mixed dancing), that's fine but don't force your fellow Jews to do the same.  This is what I mean that the Charedim go crazy because they are not educated in basic Torah and think that it is forbidden to touch women which is not true, it is beyond the letter of the law.  The Rambam and the Ramban both say that touching women is not forbidden, only sexual touching is prohibited according to the Rambam biblically and according to the Ramaban Rabbinically only. 

BTW what's wrong with going to a bar and meeting a Jewish girl? 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

http://dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=586&txtSearch=touching%20women

Its the Rambam saying its FORBIDDEN. -
 Also I would like to ask why do you seem to bash Haredim, and anyway I cant trush people who allways say the Rambam allows this or that without bringing the source, as in this case which you can see is the opposite.

Please click on the link and listin/ or read, it says its forbidden From the Torah, and not hassidut that you might think.

[jdl4ever]

I know what the Rambam says better than the Rabbi who wrote that article does.  Don't trust these articles, you got to look up the primary source yourself as R' Kahane taught.  This is one of the reasons I poke fun at the Cheredim a lot since many don't use primary sources and therefore get confused all the time.  It is quite the opposite of what you claim, that article did not quote the primary source but I'm going to quote the source!  Here is the Rambam where it is taken from.
הלכות איסורי ביאה פרק כא

א  כל הבא על ערווה מן העריות דרך אברים, או שחיבק ונישק דרך תאווה ונהנה בקירוב בשר--הרי זה לוקה מן התורה:  שנאמר "לבלתי עשות מחוקות התועבות" (ויקרא יח,ל); ונאמר "לא תקרבו לגלות ערווה" (ויקרא יח,ו), כלומר לא תקרבו לדברים המביאין לידי גילוי ערווה.  [ב] והעושה דבר מחוקות אלו, הרי הוא חשוד על העריות.

I translate "Anyone who lives with a forbidden sexual relationship via the genitals, or he held close and kissed the way of lust and benefited from the encounter of the flesh, he gets lashes from the Torah:  as it says etc...

So the Rambam says that the only type of touching that is forbidden is lustful sexual like touching such as sexual kissing.  But simple touching is clearly not forbidden as per the Rambam.  If he wished to forbid just hugging or simple kissing and hand shaking than he would have stated a hand shaking example, instead of a specific detailed description lustful kissing or as the gentiles call oral sex (he didn't just say kissing, he said "or he held and kissed the way of lust and benefited from the encounter of the flesh").  Many recent Rabbis are more stringent than the Rambam for some reason and rule that as long as some enjoyment occurs in the touching it is forbidden, as that article you wrote stated. Perhaps they read the Rambam differently than the simple reading and think since he wrote "and benefited" that benefit is all that is required to make it forbidden.  Personally, I don't see how their opinion can be read in the Rambam and I disagree with their opinion since the Rambam to me is very clear on this issue.  If you want to follow their ruling then fine, but I follow the Rambam's ruling.

Not only that but I've been told the Ramban is even more lenient and considers such a kissing example only a Rabbinical commandment since he thinks it is an asmachta but I don't have a Ramban so I can't quote the source with certainty. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Its the way Maran understandings the Rambam - Maran is the author of the Shulhan Aruh,- which is the basic book of law for most Jews.

[jdl4ever]

What rabbis rule it is okay to kiss on the cheek?

I'm a man and I can say that kissing on the cheek can be lustful too. Chazal were men and knew how men think and feel.

You didn't read my post where I quoted the Rambam verbadum and translated him.  We were discussing if the Rambam permits touching women and regular kissing on the cheek.  We were not discussing what most Rabbis think of this issue, but were discussing if there are great Rabbis of old who permit touching women and if it is the relm of Judaism those Rabbis who permit this.   If you read the Rambam, he is very clear that only real sex and oral sex is forbidden, all other forms of touching are permitted.  There is only one way to understand the Rambam as if he would have thought that shaking hands is forbidden, he would have menchaned the most lenient example of shaking hands and surely anything more intimite than that would be forbidden. The fact that he only said specifically that oral sex is forbidden, leaving out anything else, it is obvious that he permits the less intimate forms of touching. 

Now, the Rambam and Ramban (who is even more lenient) are not the only commentators and there are those who have stricter opinions.  As for the Cheredim, my understanding is that most prohibit any contact at all for the reason you gave, but their belief is based on different commentators as the Rambam does not believe it is forbidden from the Torah or Rabbinically for you to have enjoyment from touching women, as long as it is not sexual or sexual like touching.  Yukutiel wrote that R' Meir Kahane Zs'l would go with him to the Israeli beaches to stop Jewish girls from marrying arabs.  I'm sure that they saw not modestly dressed girls there.   Now, the regular religious Jews (Misnagdim, Young Israel types or Dati types) go both ways depending on who you talk to.   I know my family and many others have the Tradition that grandparents hug the grandchildren so we obviously have the tradition of the Rambam.

[Ari]

Although I'm still somewhat curious, I probably won't go to one of these events.  I still have a little time to weigh the pros and cons before the so-called Matzo Ball.  I'll let you guys know about a final decision.  A JTF dating site, if it could be put together is a pretty good idea.  Thanks for the input.

[Kiwi]

BTW what's wrong with going to a bar and meeting a Jewish girl?

Absolutely nothing.

[Kiwi]

The fact that he only said specifically that oral sex is forbidden, leaving out anything else, it is obvious that he permits the less intimate forms of touching.

So he should because he understands that touching does not automatically leads to sex.

[newman]

I don't believe that The Rambam would permit French Kissing. That is not oral sex.

All forms of kissing can make a man horny so I'm sure Chazal forbid it.

I think that is insulting to Jews.

Jews are the most civilised and disciplined people on earth. Jews can see naked women WITHOUT doing anything inappropriate.

It is the arab and negro who cannot control themselves or their primitive urges and resort to rape and fornication at the drop of a hat, NOT the Jew.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I don't believe that The Rambam would permit French Kissing. That is not oral sex.

All forms of kissing can make a man horny so I'm sure Chazal forbid it.

I think that is insulting to Jews.

Jews are the most civilised and disciplined people on earth. Jews can see naked women WITHOUT doing anything inappropriate.

It is the arab and negro who cannot control themselves or their primitive urges and resort to rape and fornication at the drop of a hat, NOT the Jew.

 Nope, non of that is allowed. Touching isnt allowed either and I dont see how some here justify the Rambam or any another Rav justifying it. If someone like the Rambam would have been alive today he would probably concider many of todays Tzniut standards to be immodest. I dont have the source but I do even think that Rambam agreed to the style of the muslim women (I know people are going to start bashing now,,  ), but you should see that this isnt a joke. I was at a Shiur last night and the Rav brought examples from the Gemorah where a great Rav whos every word was fullfilled told his daughter to go back to the sand (disintegrate), just because a guy made a hole in his fence in order to look at her (even where she was fully dressed). - (the Shiur will be up soon, on http://kolyakov.org/ - Rabbi Daniel Kohen) hear it to understand the whole message- its not up right now, but he did say that he will request that they put that one up quicky.

[jdl4ever]

I put the Rambam up here for all of you to see what he says and he clearly permits touching.  Your only response is "I can't believe he really says that and I got some story my Rabbi told me".  Well, that is not Torah.  Read the Rambam I posted and see what he says with your own eyes.  I rest my case.  Now you believe that if you look at a Jewish girl, she deserves death?  Talk about distorting the Torah and going way beyond what the Torah commanded.  I wouldn't go any where near any of these Rabbis who say such lies.   And the Rambam wasn't the one who complemented Muslim dress, it was a different Sephardic commentary. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

That was a story from the Talmud, I didnt make it up neither did the Rav in the lecture, its not to taken at face value but to show the severity of this and to instill in us this Yirat Hashe-m (fear of heaven). Thats why I said wait for the video to hear the whole thing.
 Anyway I allready posted the link to the Halacha, that is a Halahic site, and the author of the Shulhan Aruh (Code of Jewish Law) writes that its not allowed from the Rambam. - click on it and listin to the audio- very short).
 Ill get back to you later some time, imm too tired from the turkey.

[jdl4ever]

I read some of the S.A. and to my knowledge the Shulchan Aruch never writes where he got his Halachot from in the text.  Some sources are added in brackets to the text.  I am not sure if this was added at a later date or added by the author himself, so if you got this from these brackets then I would question if the S.A. was really the one who wrote it and say that it was a mistake since the Rambam says the opposite. 

I am waiting for the story in the Talmud, but you can't necessarily bring proof from the actions in these stories without analyzing them carefully and seeing if they contradict the Torah as sometimes the Rabbi makes a mistake in the story (R' Shimon Bar Yochai and the cave for an example) and other times the story isn't even real but is where hidden things of the Torah are put. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Anyway do you live in Queens? If you do then come to this Rav's lecture- you can ask all of these questions and he is a very reliable and great Rav who will answer you.(its a diff. Rav then from this lecture, but actually you can ask this Rav also, but probably after the lecture and not during it). 
 Rav Mizrahi gives lectures at Beit Gavriel ( 71st street) on Wensday nights 8:00 P.M.
Let me know.

[jdl4ever]

I don't understand.  I only ask Rabbis questions on things I don't know.  I know what the Rambam says and I know what your Rabbis opinion is on touching girls, which I don't follow having a different tradition than he does.  I do live in Queens by the way.   

[jdl4ever]

We've discussed this already.  According to R' Kahane Zs'l the Torah was meant for us to study it and to absorb it ourselves, not to not know anything and to run to Rabbis like blind sheep on every trivial matter without understanding the basics of the Torah.  This causes the Rabbis to no longer be Rabbis since they know the populace will blindly follow whatever they say so they will no longer be well versed at the Torah or follow it strictly since no one will know the difference.  The Rav said only ask Rabbis questions on things that you don't know for yourself and when you do ask him you shouldn't settle for a yes or no answer but if you don't agree the Rabbi must prove his opinion to you on questioning or if he is unable to do so admit that he was wrong.  The Rambam's opinion is clear cut and I don't need a Rabbis opinion on this, especially a Rabbi who doesn't follow my tradition.  Even theoretically if he is a good Rabbi and I was not sure on this issue, you don't ask Rabbis about things that you know follow a different tradition than you on that area you are asking them a question on.  If you want to follow the Shulchan Aruch than that is your right, especially if your tradition is in line with what he writes.

Make Yourself A Rav:  Got a dead one, R' Kahane Zs'l.  Got a living one as well but because he doesn't follow my traditions the situation is more complicated than you are making it out to be and I am allowed to not follow him on areas where the traditions don't match or if he says things against the Torah (which this one does do as he's Satmur).