To JSullivan: When will Chaim's rules for the dating sections be ready?

[adam613]

I hope nobody finds this over the top. I just think that for the sacrifices Chaim has made he deserves to get married and have some kind of family. I mean if that animal Rupert Murdoch at 70 years old and with 4 children from two previous marriages marries a 30 year old scummy women who is only interrested in his money some younger women should be interested in a soon to be 50-year old Chaim who has made legitimate sacrifices for Russian Jewry and Israeli Jewry. The reasons aren't for money but is rewarding a man that has made a tremendous sacrifice for the Jewish people. Anyone I hope people don't find this post over the top. I know there aren't that many women on this forum.

[fake plastic trees]

I believe in...not kissing before marriage.

nice life you'll have

[MarZutra]

To answer your question: No.  Young women today are too dumbed down with Liberalism, Shvartzism, "progressive" Judaism or Orthodox Judaism that wishes to remain voiceless and weak in my humble opinion.  My sister is a nice "Reform" Jew, Top of her profession, VERY Liberal, 36, filled with feminist false self confidence and wonders why she is single?  A direct product of "Progressive" thinking in my opinion.  Those who should be married and having children aren't and those who aren't married who should NOT be having children are.  Of couse there are exceptions to every rule, the Muslims who are married and are having litters of 8-15 children....that those in the first catagory are financing through massive "Wealth Transfer" programs and "progressive" taxation....  "Decline of the West"...

[TheCoon]

Go meet someone through your synagogue or something. Get involved in your synagogue or church and help out when you can. I guarantee you'll meet someone nice that way.

IMO, this thread is over the top. For goodness sake, people... 

Steps to finding a girl:

1) Stop generalizing them as brainwashed, only liking black men, liberal, etc, etc.

2) If you have a small group of friends and/or don't want to meet them in places like clubs, etc(wouldn't blame you if you didn't) then get involved in your community. This can be church, sports that are good for co-ed like volleyball, community service, volunteer at hospitals, clinics, old folks homes, etc. You will meet girls in these things. Chances are, girls with morals

3) Get rid of notions like not kissing before marriage. I'm sorry Yaacov but that is ridiculous. I've never heard of this and I know plenty of orthodox Jews. There's nothing wrong with maintaining your virginity but girls will want some intimacy.

4) Be confidant and be yourself. If a girl isn't gonna accept you and your shortcomings, why bother? Unless she's really really really hot of course.

[GentileLady]

Chaim is, and will be, blessed.  His sacrifices will be rewarded.  He was chosen for a very difficult, thankless job, and he did not shirk his responsibilities or ask for the cup to be taken from him.  He has allowed the Lord to lead him, and for this he will undoubtedly be rewarded.

Signed, Married and old.

[MarZutra]

Go meet someone through your synagogue or something. Get involved in your synagogue or church and help out when you can. I guarantee you'll meet someone nice that way.

IMO, this thread is over the top. For goodness sake, people... 

Steps to finding a girl:

1) Stop generalizing them as brainwashed, only liking black men, liberal, etc, etc.

2) If you have a small group of friends and/or don't want to meet them in places like clubs, etc(wouldn't blame you if you didn't) then get involved in your community. This can be church, sports that are good for co-ed like volleyball, community service, volunteer at hospitals, clinics, old folks homes, etc. You will meet girls in these things. Chances are, girls with morals

3) Get rid of notions like not kissing before marriage. I'm sorry Yaacov but that is ridiculous. I've never heard of this and I know plenty of orthodox Jews. There's nothing wrong with maintaining your virginity but girls will want some intimacy.

4) Be confidant and be yourself. If a girl isn't gonna accept you and your shortcomings, why bother? Unless she's really really really hot of course.

Very good advice.  I agree with your analysis for the most part.  Simply, as time passes more and more women are catering to the continual bombardment of feminist, "progressive" propaganda starting from the womb to the grave.  Here in Canada the texts for elementary school students advocate everything on the leftist aganda: Same Sex this, feminism that, hate whitey here, love everyone elses culture there, everything and every one is equal, "team player"/groups think.  It is actually quite sad.  In my honest estimate the averge Canadian girl under 25, NOT ALL, but I'd say quickly becoming the majority had serviced almost as many men/boys as their age.  They (the "progressive" Left) is continually teaching them false "pride" and a false sense of self-confidence/respect via promoting "sexual liberation", "experiment with your homosexual feelings" etc. to the point where most youths here actually wish the legalization of drugs and prostitution.  The result in most cases is ignorance and a very self fulfilled prostitute in my opinion.  You are correct in your steps, because obviously these types of women/girls would not be attending or volunteering in any of the groups you suggest.  The sad facts are that those groups are becoming smaller and lesser as the West becomes more "progressive" and "tolerant".  I do agree with your analysis just wishing to touch on both the educational system and the media which have totally vanquished Conservative values within our youth.....   PS: I am not a woman hater not whatsoever, I feel women should be embracing their true feminin self and good values and not feminism, "diversity" and "progressiveness" because there is absolutley nothing attractive nor feminin in a feminist just ignorance and immense arrogance.

[Alex]

My mother said that women like security and I could agree with her.

[TheCoon]

The only thing I've heard that is anything like that is not kissing during a woman's period of menstruation.

If this is the case then 99% of Jews don't know Judaism. Can you please show me where in Jewish law this notion of "not kissing" is present? I'm curious as to where it exists.

[fake plastic trees]

The only thing I've heard that is anything like that is not kissing during a woman's period of menstruation.

A man can't even touch his wife or sleep in the same bed without having sex during her period. A man is not supposed to even shake hands with or in any way touch a woman who is not his wife, sister, mother, or daughter.

A man isn't even supposed to hear a woman sing unless she is his wife.

Not all Jews are strict about all these things. I used to believe in kissing before marriage and I thought not kissing before marriage was only being extra strict just like eating Glatt Kosher is a stricter version of eating kosher, although Jews are not required to keep Glatt Kosher. But it is Halacha, not just extra strictness. But the no kissing part is as far as I follow. That doesn't mean I think it is okay to break those other prohibitions. I'm just not as observant on those parts. I'm not even fully observant of Shabbat yet but I still accept that you must keep Shabbat and the fact that I don't fully observe it is a sin.

You can't seriously think that kissing before marriage is WRONG... if you hold those beliefs, you won't ever get married!

[TheCoon]

I wonder if JTF has any rabbis in the movement that could answer this?

[fake plastic trees]

The only thing I've heard that is anything like that is not kissing during a woman's period of menstruation.

A man can't even touch his wife or sleep in the same bed without having sex during her period. A man is not supposed to even shake hands with or in any way touch a woman who is not his wife, sister, mother, or daughter.

A man isn't even supposed to hear a woman sing unless she is his wife.

Not all Jews are strict about all these things. I used to believe in kissing before marriage and I thought not kissing before marriage was only being extra strict just like eating Glatt Kosher is a stricter version of eating kosher, although Jews are not required to keep Glatt Kosher. But it is Halacha, not just extra strictness. But the no kissing part is as far as I follow. That doesn't mean I think it is okay to break those other prohibitions. I'm just not as observant on those parts. I'm not even fully observant of Shabbat yet but I still accept that you must keep Shabbat and the fact that I don't fully observe it is a sin.

You can't seriously think that kissing before marriage is WRONG... if you hold those beliefs, you won't ever get married!

You are ignorant. How do you think religious Jews get married? Holding those beliefs makes it easier to get married because if you insist on kissing before marriage, a religious woman wouldn't want to marry you.

And how many of these religious women do you know?

[LeChayim]

Yacov,

If you choose not to kiss a woman before marriage, that's obviously your prerogative. But be aware that you are making a sacrifice, because it does narrow the pool of available Jewish girls who might otherwise be right for you.

And if you're going to make such a sacrifice, you must explore for certain whether this is actually halachah. I maintain it is not. If I'm wrong - and I don't say this facetiously - show me. Where in the Torah - written or oral - can you find reference to this?

In this week's parsha (weekly Torah portion), we read that when Jacob met Rachel for the first time, he kissed her. This is not a Midrash, or some Rabbi's interpretation or opinion. It's written in plain Hebrew. "And Jacob kissed Rachel" (Gen 29:11). Seven verses later, we learn that they had fallen in love ("And Jacob loved Rachel"). We see from here that affection - as well as physical attraction ("And Rachel was of beautiful form and fair to look upon") - is an acceptable part of an evolving relationship between a man and a woman, before they get married or even engaged.

You ask "How do you think religious Jews get married?" Well, actually there is a crisis among religious communities regarding the issue. More and more men and women spend many years being single, because there is no format for courting, meeting the opposite sex, and developing a relationship. So they wait for someone to "set them up," while everyone is busy reviewing the other's resume instead of meeting, talking, physically interacting and falling in love.

You go to a wedding (a great place to meet the opposite sex), but you meet no one, because more and more weddings now have separate seating for men and women, due to the influence of the "more-frum-than-the-Torah" crowd.

A couple might get set up, but the date is awkward, because the two strangers feel somehow guilty if they lean too close to eachother across the table in the restaurant.

I'm happily married, and I met my wife when I was 24. I was (am) lucky. But it wouldn't have happened, had I not asked her out, kissed her, developed a relationship, and fallen in love.

Your level of observance is, of course your personal choice. But you've got to ask yourself whether you are following Halachah, or someone else's notion of "frumkiet."

[adam613]

Wow! This turned into quite a discussion, Yakov. Yeah, I am 33 and single and I agree that it is almost impossible to meet people and their is a serious problem meeting people. Where I live the single women do not at all know where the single guys are even though there are single guys in the Jewish phone book in the area. It is so bad that one women thinks that no single men live here and said the community is the worst place for a single women as there are no single guys. The community treats the guys so badly that none of them feel comfortable. And they have even banned men from the community because one girl complained about the guy even though she wasn't nice to the guy either. So guys just stay away. I grew up Orthodox but stay home because where I live the Rabbi's I can't trust. They are all "women Rabbi's". I did find one shul with a Chabad Rabbi that I can't walked to on Shabbos but is about 10 miles away that the shul is nice. The congregation is MO even though the Rabbi is Chabad as they couldn't afford a full time Rabbi but the community was nice even though it was very small. I just brought this up because I guess I think that even if Chaim isn't in Israel he should still if he could try to get married which I understand is obviously difficult in his circumstances. You never know what can happen by posting something.

   I have to say that I just am very alarmed at how feminism is so out of control in Orthodoxy today. The only men the women like are "Rabbi's" and  men on top and the women want Rabbi's and the government to protect them but don't want a husband unless he acts like their girlfriend. In Genesis it says g-d created women to be man's helpmate but a lot of the Rabbi's like to hide behind women because they are less of a threat to their jobs then intelligent men are. Some of these Rabbi's constantly giving insincere flattery to women that they think if a man disagrees's with anything they say it is abuse. The Patriarchs and Matriarchs didn't see eye to eye on every issue. Can you can go out with women that are big feminists? Are their younger women that are not feminists?

The women also want to be able to divorce at the drop of a hat and get alimony and child support. This creates an environment where why should a woman want a man that is moral if they can divorce a guy at the drop of hat? When men divorce (even though some cases I think the men are acting selfishly) but they do have to compensate the women and many times have to give up the children. When the women divorces she gives nothing to the guy and only takes. This is called "equality". This is insane. So I just needed to let off some steam here.

[LeChayim]

You hit the nail on the head with your first sentence. On the one hand, if you don't go where the religious women are, how will you find one? On the other hand, all the places where you can expect to see religious women are designed to keep you separated from them. And even if per chance you find yourself within 10 feet of a single women, you can't, G-d forbid, talk to her, much less ask her out. That would be immodest. So, what the "frum" crowd is telling you is that it's wrong to for men and women to meet. Are you obligated by Halachah to stay single?

There is no social network for singles, because the leaders of the Jewish communities (big surprise here) simply don't care. They're so concerned about looking frum that they're busy running around making sure a woman isn't seen in the same zip code as a guy she might be interested in. But they care nothing about the singles crisis, because their kids will get the best shiduch anyway. So they leave it up to the business sector to come up with costly organizations like frumster.

What exactly, according to whoever dictates these rules (and it is not mandated by the Torah), is a young man without well connected parents supposed to do to meet his mate? What is immodest about a man speaking to a woman - in good taste, of course - to see whether there is a mutual interest to persue a relationship? And I will give you a thousand-to-one that the ones who enforce these restrictions, and reinvent them to be more restrictive as each day passes, were themselves the biggest playboys (or worse) in their younger years.

I'm telling you, Yacov, it's a lie. A fraud. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man persuing his mate. And to do that, you must somehow get her attention and gain her interest, and develop a mutual affection.

You don't necessarily have to date for recreational purposes, but recreation is a good start to get to know someone. If there is an interest after the first date, you have another one. And as time goes by, you decide whether you are right for eachother based on what you've learned in the time you've spent together. And if you break up, at least you tried. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

And I'm not suggesting you passively fall in love, but you don't "choose" to love someone either. As the relationship progresses, you should develop mutual feelings toward eachother. You don't just walk up to someone and say "Good afternoon, ma'am. I'd like to consider you as a potential wife. Shall we discuss it over dinner." (Hmmm. On second thought, that might be a good pick-up line.)

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I didnt read all the posts here , but i came acroos about eating glat Kosher and Kosher -  J Shabbat - eating only Glatt Kosher is allowed for Jews (Sefardim expecially) The Rabbis say that if its only "kosher" its Not allowed, soo its not just an extra stringency. also about other labels that claim to be koser - its a big problem becuase many of the companies are from Reform and conservative standards. for example- I asked my Professor ( who is a Conservative Jew, ( nice Guy though) ) whats the diff between them and Orthodox, he told me that for example they allow cheese that has chemicals made out of meat to be made and eaten with the cheese. But according to Halaha such a thing is assur (forbidden) and disguesting. this is a big problem expecially for Sefardim who say see it says k , or any other symbol that resembles kosher, but in reality we are being fooled that its kosher, where in fact in some cases its worse then eating a piece of non-kosher meat. (for example cheese with meat is worse then non- Kosher meat itself)

[LeChayim]

In this week's parsha (weekly Torah portion), we read that when Jacob met Rachel for the first time, he kissed her. This is not a Midrash, or some Rabbi's interpretation or opinion. It's written in plain Hebrew. "And Jacob kissed Rachel" (Gen 29:11). Seven verses later, we learn that they had fallen in love ("And Jacob loved Rachel"). We see from here that affection - as well as physical attraction ("And Rachel was of beautiful form and fair to look upon") - is an acceptable part of an evolving relationship between a man and a woman, before they get married or even engaged.

I asked a rabbi about that. He said Jacob was able to kiss Rachel because he was on such a level and because she was his cousin. Today Jews are not on such a high level and can't even kiss their cousins before marriage.

(Pardon me, I'm about to have a tirade)

That's a bunch of horse manure!!! On a higher level. So I suppose, once you achieve a certain level, you are exempt from halachah? If it's allowed, it's allowed. If not, not. Besides, Yacov didn't consider himself to be on a higher level. Also, how convenient! We can then dismiss any evidence brought from our forefathers by claiming they were on a higher level. Please.

And as for the cousin thing. First of all, kissing a cousin makes it worse. And anyway, Yacov intended to marry her. He loved her as a potential wife, not "cousin Rachel."

See what I mean? This reinforces my conviction that so many Rabbis today are just - shall we say - not on a higher level.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

guys stop judging things based on emotions etc. people here arent experts, if you want to know the truth and follow it then go ask your local Rabbi ( one that follows real Halaha) ( expecially if he knows you well). Their are things a Rabbi might say to 1 person is okay and to another its not, their might be different situations for diff. people, and you cant say - you see this and that happened or I saw them do this or that , soo its okay , etc. p.s.- stop spending too much time on internet forums, and maybe spend a litlle more time in Beit Midrash, or just a place where you can study ( that goes for me too).
Rabbis made decrees for Jews because they saw and see that if one thing is allowed then people are going to break them and maybe go "all the way". if they would say that kissing allowed people would say then why not touching, and then they would say when not doing this and why not doing theat, when eventually their would be no more barriers or rules and where you have a society like the Western contries where people have sex with eachother, people are turning gay, and the next step is people having sex with animals ( oops it allready happened).

[jdl4ever]

This might shock people but from what I know touching is permitted;  only touching intimitely is prohibited by the Rambam (derech chivah).  The Ramban disagrees with the Rambam that it is biblically prohibited to touch intimitely and says this is a Rabbinical decree.  I found this out from a different torah forum and I need to investigate myself if it is true. 

[genteelgentile]

This is a really interesting discussion, but with all due respect, it kinda makes me glad I am not Jewish.  But I am  married anyhow, so whatever...

[davkakach]

This is a really interesting discussion, but with all due respect, it kinda makes me glad I am not Jewish.  But I am  married anyhow, so whatever...

It's a ____ job, but somebody's gotta do it.   

[davkakach]

This is a really interesting discussion, but with all due respect, it kinda makes me glad I am not Jewish.  But I am  married anyhow, so whatever...

Well, I guess it's only fair you feel that way. After all, we Jews thank G-d every morning in 'Birkot Hashachar' for not making us goyim, gentiles. This is how the prayer literally translates.

However, in prayer books with English translation, it is usually seen as "Blessed are You…..for making me proud to fulfill my obligations as a Jew."

It's not particularly appropriate to shove this in a gentile's face, particularly a righteous gentile.

[jdl4ever]

Don't insult the richeous gentiles!

[genteelgentile]

hahaha!!  I know this subject, and many other subjects discussed here in this forum are serious, but I also want to have FUN.  Also thanks Davkakach...

[genteelgentile]

and JDL4ever...  I am not insulted!!! (Should I Be???)   I like to hear things like this; Many things about Judaism interest me, even though so many things go over my head!

[GentileLady]

This is a really interesting discussion, but with all due respect, it kinda makes me glad I am not Jewish.  But I am  married anyhow, so whatever...

Well, I guess it's only fair you feel that way. After all, we Jews thank G-d every morning in 'Birkot Hashachar' for not making us goyim, gentiles. This is how the prayer literally translates from Hebrew.

However, in prayer books with English translations, it is almost always seen as "Blessed are You…..for making me proud to fulfill my obligations as a Jew."

I'm not offended.  And I believe part of the morning blessing also says something like (please forgive me if I mess this up)......."Blessed art Thou for Thou has not made me a woman."  Some have suggested this is anti-woman...prime facie evidence of discrimination...blah, blah, blah........never pausing long enough to consider the possibility that this is a frank recognition that the observant woman has a more difficult job than a man.

My point is that righteous gentiles will not take offense, prefering instead to seek understanding of the real meaning of Judaism.  Please don't self-censor.  We'd like to understand.