Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?

I think its more the question, does that person want to stay alive?

I know it becomes a very difficult yet morbid decision.  And I mean those that are forever suffering to stay alive.  Terminally ill for example that no matter what. For example: If someone has cancer that can never be cured and slowly eating away at them and comes to a point that they have nothing but suffering just to continue to live, I really don't see that as living.

I don't think its morbid, or differcult in some respects. Its a choice that is made on what is the best likely outcome. I know i sound harsh, but I don't fear death, I am not scared of it.

As for my that choice has been made, I have what they call a living will. legally stating my right to die.

[Sarah]

IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?

I think its more the question, does that person want to stay alive?

I know it becomes a very difficult yet morbid decision.  And I mean those that are forever suffering to stay alive.  Terminally ill for example that no matter what. For example: If someone has cancer that can never be cured and slowly eating away at them and comes to a point that they have nothing but suffering just to continue to live, I really don't see that as living.

I don't think its morbid, or differcult in some respects. Its a choice that is made on what is the best likely outcome. I know i sound harsh, but I don't fear death, I am not scared of it.

As for my that choice has been made, I have what they call a living will. legally stating my right to die.

Yet being accountable for the sins of suicide....if you believe that you have the legal right to choose your time of death.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

he does not send us anything we are not fit to bear.

[/b]

So we can live with the suffering then?

Thats life Sarah of course we can live with suffering, many choose that. As I stated its up to the person themselves, no one has a right to take a life if it is not willing given up to them. There is a huge difference.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?

I think its more the question, does that person want to stay alive?

I know it becomes a very difficult yet morbid decision.  And I mean those that are forever suffering to stay alive.  Terminally ill for example that no matter what. For example: If someone has cancer that can never be cured and slowly eating away at them and comes to a point that they have nothing but suffering just to continue to live, I really don't see that as living.

I don't think its morbid, or differcult in some respects. Its a choice that is made on what is the best likely outcome. I know i sound harsh, but I don't fear death, I am not scared of it.

As for my that choice has been made, I have what they call a living will. legally stating my right to die.

Yet being accountable for the sins of suicide....if you believe that you have the legal right to choose your time of death.

Everyone has a right to choose to live or die. I have a right to refuse medical treatment and request palliative care, that is my right and my legal right as a citizen of Australia.

[Ari]

I used to volunteer and then work in a couple of nursing homes growing up.  It can be a true horror show to be forced to live with a terminal illness.  I hope I never have to go through something like that, and I agree that life should not be prolonged in these situations when there is no genuine hope!  After all, we're going to a better place G-d willing.

[nessuno]

I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim say that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.

Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.

Lubab , I for one 1000%agree with Chaim. I do not see it as murder, I see it as a act of kindness.

Being in a position which I have done so, I can state that its not a horrible act against a person its a blessing.

The choice is never made lightly, the family and person concerned are fully aware.

You might find that a strange thing to say but, even if a person is in a coma, they are still fully aware of what is going on.

I have the strongs belief due to I have assisted and been apart of this many times, that it is NOT against any code of conduct.

We swear an oath to maintain life, we also swear an oath to relieve suffering.

And thats what we do. To purposely take a life in that case is far from easy, it never gets easier. The Toll on that care giver is huge.

Every time you do it a little piece of your heart and soul dies with that person, if you think there is no price to an action you are clearly wrong.

And if that makes me a Murderer so be it.

I don't believe that withdrawing care from a terminally ill person is murder.
A person or their health care proxy should have the right to stop treatment -when that treatment is futile.  That is not suicide.  
When possible the decision should be made with family and the medical team.  Everyone should be on the same page.

I have participated in many end of life cases at work.
Skippy is right - it is never easy.
Yet it is never easy when we prolong life - in futile cases - and watch families destroyed by that.
In some cases - every decent memory of their loved one replaced with one of suffering.

[Lubab]

Everyone here seems to be confusing two very different issues.
A lot of you are talking about the issue of whether we must prolong life by a terminally ill patient. This is NOT the issue I am talking about here.

The question was about suicide. I think it was clear to any listener that we were talking about a proactive act by someone...either the patient, or the doctor to end the life.

If you leave the patient so that whatever happens happens (i.e. DNR or something like that)  that is one thing and may be totally permissible and I believe it is permissible.

But if we are talking about someone committing suicide or homicide by proactively doing something to end the life which I believe is murder according to all opinions.

According to Jewish law, when the person appears to be dying you must not talk or touch the person as their soul is leaving them because you may cause their soul to leave a moment too soon and even though they might have died a moment later, this is MURDER.

People can say their own opinions, but I'm not really concerned with my opinion or anyone else's opinion. I'm trying to talk about what is the Torah view on this. The Torah was given to us by G-d and YES he does have a right to say what we should do in these situations.

If Chaim meant something else, I should hope he will make this clear.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I don't think the Bible speaks on this either way--therefore, we must make our own judgments. I don't think any of us have the right to speak for someone who has free will and faculties in that situation. Therefore I agree with Chaim, DWI, Skippy, Dr. Dan., etc. on this issue.

At my church, an elderly couple I know went through exactly this. The elderly husband had serious heart surgery about three or four years ago and never really recovered, and simply became an increasing burden on his (able-bodied) elderly wife, as his health went on an exponential downward spiral. Whether it was due to poor lifestyle habits in his youth (which age-related diseases usually are partially attributable to) or simply the irreversible and unavoidable effects of aging, this man became nothing but a burden and life-sapper for his wife, and was completely unable to accomplish any more good or usefulness for his remaining time on earth.

When he finally passed last fall, his wife, though grieving, was relieved, and I can see why.

Now--I would never go around saying who must die, but if this man on his own decided that this miserable existence (which I would call worse than death) was only dragging all of his loved ones down and wanted out, I certainly would not call it sin.

I definitely hope something takes me long before I become a vegetable or parasite...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

lubab at what point is someone considered halachically dead, and what do you mean by 'not doing anything' to let them die naturally as opposed to doing an act?  If they are on life support, they will remain alive in vegetative state, no?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Lubab is right, the Halacha is Halacha. And suffering cant be an excuse (G-d save us from these things). If the Halacha says that the patient cant be killed (murdered) then its forbidden even if they are in pain. And if this comes up, then it was decreed by G-d to happen this way (may G-d save us from such things).

[Lubab]

lubab at what point is someone considered halachically dead, and what do you mean by 'not doing anything' to let them die naturally as opposed to doing an act?  If they are on life support, they will remain alive in vegetative state, no?

We generally go by when the heart stops, but it's not so simple.

[Lubab]

This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.

[jdl4ever]

Yes, I agree with Lubab. 

[Lubab]

Everyone here seems to be confusing two very different issues.
A lot of you are talking about the issue of whether we must prolong life by a terminally ill patient. This is NOT the issue I am talking about here.

The question was about suicide. I think it was clear to any listener that we were talking about a proactive act by someone...either the patient, or the doctor to end the life.

If you leave the patient so that whatever happens happens (i.e. DNR or something like that)  that is one thing and may be totally permissible and I believe it is permissible.

But if we are talking about someone committing suicide or homicide by proactively doing something to end the life which I believe is murder according to all opinions.

According to Jewish law, when the person appears to be dying you must not talk or touch the person as their soul is leaving them because you may cause their soul to leave a moment too soon and even though they might have died a moment later, this is MURDER.

People can say their own opinions, but I'm not really concerned with my opinion or anyone else's opinion. I'm trying to talk about what is the Torah view on this. The Torah was given to us by G-d and YES he does have a right to say what we should do in these situations.

If Chaim meant something else, I should hope he will make this clear.

Then why don't you ask Chaim this week. I saw you didn't post anything to him yet.

Because I'm not worrying about Chaim. I'm worried about YOU GUYS getting the wrong impression of what the Torah really says.

[Rubystars]

I think it's a very complex topic, and not one answer would be right for every situation. However, I would want to err on the side of life in most cases, because I would be afraid of coercion by family members of a terminally ill or elderly patient.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.

Thank you.  I believe you're right, actually from what I remember, I think my rabbi had told me that in the event of a terrible accident or heart failure etc (G-d forbid), that a person if they knew there was no chance at survival, they could choose not to put the person on life support to be saved into vegetative state.  Once putting them on, they are not allowed to go and take them off because you can't do something to speed the process at all.  But I'm pretty sure you can make that initial choice not to put ONTO a repirator if it is known there is no chance at recovery.  I could be wrong though. 

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.

I think leaving someone in pain and suffering is worse than murder.

[Daniel]

I think when it comes to the topic of euthanasia, we need to differentiate between "passive" and "active" euthanasia. Passive euthanasia would be something like cutting off someone's feeding tube. I'm not sure a DNR would be considered any time of euthanasia, but I suppose that could also fall under the confines of passive euthanasia. Active euthanasia would be the act of active killing, sort of like what Dr. Kevorkian does. I don't remember exactly what Chaim said and in what context he said it. But I would be surprised that Chaim would be in favor of this since he was very much outspoken against the Terri Shaivo case which was an example of passive euthanasia. Perhaps Chaim was referring to evil people who deserve to die and that they should all save us the suffering by just killing themselves. I don't know  

[Lubab]

This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.

I think leaving someone in pain and suffering is worse than murder.

G-d makes the rules. Not us.

First you need to accept that.

Later we can talk about why what G-d says here actually makes more sense than what you are saying. But that's for later.
First we need to understand whose world this is.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.

I think leaving someone in pain and suffering is worse than murder.

G-d makes the rules. Not us.

First you need to accept that.

Later we can talk about why what G-d says here actually makes more sense than what you are saying. But that's for later.
First we need to understand whose world this is.

Out of respect because you are a Rabbi, I will not comment any more on this.

But my point is this, I don't agree with everything that is written, and when I am finally judged by G-d himself thats when I will justify myself him and only him and he already knows my reasons for my actions.

I live peace with G-d and my beliefs.

[Lubab]

This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.

I think leaving someone in pain and suffering is worse than murder.

G-d makes the rules. Not us.

First you need to accept that.

Later we can talk about why what G-d says here actually makes more sense than what you are saying. But that's for later.
First we need to understand whose world this is.

Out of respect because you are a Rabbi, I will not comment any more on this.

But my point is this, I don't agree with everything that is written, and when I am finally judged by G-d himself thats when I will justify myself him and only him and he already knows my reasons for my actions.

I live peace with G-d and my beliefs.

It just so happens that there is truth to what you say. There is a Torah concept that a life poorly lived is worse than death. Your soul senses this truth. But that truth is misapplied in this case as you will hopefully understand some day before you reach 120.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I do NOT think we should be killing off disabled or terminal people. BUT, if they make the decision on their own, I see no basis to stop them.

Also--we must remember that in Biblical times, we did not have all of these life-sustaining treatments that artificially prolong the lives of ultra-ill terminal people. People who reached a state of incapacity so severe that they could not survive on their own generally died in short order. I once heard the figure that 90% of our healthcare dollars are spent on the last two weeks of human life. This is absurd, , arrogant, wasteful, outrageous, and against the will of G-d more than any self-administered euthanasia.

[Lubab]

I once heard the figure that 90% of our healthcare dollars are spent on the last two weeks of human life. This is absurd, , arrogant, wasteful, outrageous, and against the will of G-d more than any self-administered euthanasia.

How can you talk about a moment of human life in terms of dollars and cents? All the money in the world is not worth one moment of human life. I think what you just said was immoral and repugnant and it's against what the Bible says. You must preserve life at all costs, including your own life. It's not yours to mess with. It's on loan from G-d. He gives it and takes it when He wants to.

[OdKahaneChai]

Lubab you are of course right.  If you can't destroy your neighbor's possessions, why would you be able to destroy Hashem's?

[genteelgentile]

 I guess this is a subject that does come up with many of our families.  I just wish it was as black and white as saying evil must be destroyed.