Jews for J---s, aka, Messianic Jews

[Odie]

    Michael L. Brown a Jewish Believer in Jesus has written 4 volumes
called "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus"
         Has his 4 volumes been Refuted..
I heard he is going to come out with a 5th volume

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

    Michael L. Brown a Jewish Believer in Jesus has written 4 volumes
called "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus"
         Has his 4 volumes been Refuted..
I heard he is going to come out with a 5th volume

http://torahanytime.com/rav_mizrachi.html
11/07/07 The Debate - Rabbi vs. Christian  Part 1
11/07/07 The Debate - Rabbi vs. Christian  Part 2

 You will find your answers. Also if you want more you can just locate Rav Tovia Singer on that site, who also has a lot of anti-missionary Shiurim. But definitly check out this famous debate.

[Dr. Dan]

not sure if they still exist, but Jews for Judaism was/is an excellent anti-missionary group.

[Ulli]

From a Christian point of view are Jews for Jesus heretics.

I don't write this to appeal to the Jews here, but because it is true.

The letter of Paulus to the Galater is very clear. You can't be a Jewish Christ.

A Christ is not bound to the ceremonial law, like holidays, sacrifices in the holy temple, kashruth etc.

He is free in the selection of the days to celebrate. Even the Sunday can be moved to another day i.e Wednesday, without problems. It is for Jews unthinkable to move i.e. the Shabbat to Wednesday.

From a Christian point of view it is a sin for Christians  to obey Jewish holidays, because this days have had for Christians  only the meaning to point to Jesus.

Paulus said, that you are not allowed to celebrate it, because this is indicating, that the Christians, who did so, are not believing in Jesus.

Paulus said to the Galater, that they are fallen out of the grace, because they did so. With other words: They are going to hell.

I think from a jewish point of view it is the same. No gentile has to obey Jewish holidays.

Jews for Jesus have a real problem. Neither they fulfill Christianity nor Judaism.

Chaim is right, they are from a Christian point of view a cult.

[LindaSoG]

They are a cult that destroy Jewish souls and should be killed!

I am sorry to say that they have my father in their clutches and as a result, we are now estranged. 
This has caused me great pain.

[newman]

They are a cult that destroy Jewish souls and should be killed!

I am sorry to say that they have my father in their clutches and as a result, we are now estranged. 
This has caused me great pain.

I'm sorry to hear that. Perhaps you should contact Tovia Singer. He does help in these situations.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

They are a cult that destroy Jewish souls and should be killed!

I am sorry to say that they have my father in their clutches and as a result, we are now estranged. 
This has caused me great pain.

Wow I'm so sorry to hear that.

[chocolatecookie]

They are a cult that destroy Jewish souls and should be killed!

I am sorry to say that they have my father in their clutches and as a result, we are now estranged. 
This has caused me great pain.

I know this is a small consolation; but it is interesting the number of 'Christians' I come across who don't believe that Jesus is the son of God. I'm sure he'll realise once he looks at the Christian dogma how illogical and irrational it is. How the whole idea of original sin seems to make little sense when one critically analyses it.

[Ultra Requete]

Yes Golden phasant he said this to gentiles belivers that they must only abide to the laws of Noah; JfJs don't tell that Jesus didn't came to abolish laws of Torah; so they as Jews must still obey all of 613 commandments atlest to the return of Meshias and fullfilment of all Tanath and NT prophecies..  
You're right they're neither Jews or Christians they're new religion like Samaritanes or Mormons who pick and choose from scriptures.

[chocolatecookie]

Yes Golden phasant he said this to gentiles belivers that they must only abide to the laws of Noah; JfJs don't tell that Jesus didn't came to abolish laws of Torah; so they as Jews must still obey all of 613 commandments atlest to the return of Meshias and fullfilment of all Tanath and NT prophecies..  
You're right they're neither Jews or Christians they're new religion like Samaritanes or Mormons who pick and choose from scriptures.

There was a documentary on Jesus and it was interesting that Christianity has not even the slightest hint of similarity with Judaism; infact, in the documentary, Christianity has an uncanny similarity to Buddhism (and Hinduism). I mean, lets think about it; Jesus, virgin birth, son of God, original sin etc. all sounds very much like a religion with Hindu outlook on life.

[Dr. Dan]

From a Christian point of view are Jews for Jesus heretics.

I don't write this to appeal to the Jews here, but because it is true.

The letter of Paulus to the Galater is very clear. You can't be a Jewish Christ.

A Christ is not bound to the ceremonial law, like holidays, sacrifices in the holy temple, kashruth etc.

He is free in the selection of the days to celebrate. Even the Sunday can be moved to another day i.e Wednesday, without problems. It is for Jews unthinkable to move i.e. the Shabbat to Wednesday.

From a Christian point of view it is a sin for Christians  to obey Jewish holidays, because this days have had for Christians  only the meaning to point to Jesus.

Paulus said, that you are not allowed to celebrate it, because this is indicating, that the Christians, who did so, are not believing in Jesus.

Paulus said to the Galater, that they are fallen out of the grace, because they did so. With other words: They are going to hell.

I think from a jewish point of view it is the same. No gentile has to obey Jewish holidays.

Jews for Jesus have a real problem. Neither they fulfill Christianity nor Judaism.

Chaim is right, they are from a Christian point of view a cult.

Jews for Jesus is a so called Christian movement aimed at fooling Jews who are disconnected from the Jewish community that they can be Jewish and beleive in Jesus Christ.

there is nothing wrong with believing in Jesus Christ. HOwever anyone who wishes to do that is simply defined a Christian..hence Christ..Christian..It's simple really...And if a Jew wishes to believe in Jesus as the Messiah..fine...but they are Christian..not Jewish...they aren't practicing Judaism..they are practicing Christianity..all the power to him..

So if someone comes along and says, "oh I'm Jewish, but I believe in Jesus." the answer should be, "No, you are a christian because you believe in Jesus."

And Jews for Jesus is just a sick sick way of saying you can be both..you can't.

[Dr. Dan]

They are a cult that destroy Jewish souls and should be killed!

I am sorry to say that they have my father in their clutches and as a result, we are now estranged. 
This has caused me great pain.

I know this is a small consolation; but it is interesting the number of 'Christians' I come across who don't believe that Jesus is the son of G-d. I'm sure he'll realise once he looks at the Christian dogma how illogical and irrational it is. How the whole idea of original sin seems to make little sense when one critically analyses it.

I wouldnt' go there if I were you...

Religion/theology is really something private and everybody needs a different way to know Gd.  I wouldn't go far as saying that christian is illogical...To us Jews it is illogical..but to christians it makes sense...and if it works for them to be decent human beings...then they are following the correct religion for themselves..

[q_q_]

Dr Brown was Completely refuted in a debate with the brilliant Rabbi Dr Schochet.

ignore the site! but here is a link
http://www.therealmessiah.com/audio/IsJesusTheJewishMessiahDrBrownAndDrSchochetNew.mp3

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

From a Christian point of view it is a sin for Christians  to obey Jewish holidays, because this days have had for Christians  only the meaning to point to Jesus.

Paulus said, that you are not allowed to celebrate it, because this is indicating, that the Christians, who did so, are not believing in Jesus.

Paulus said to the Galater, that they are fallen out of the grace, because they did so. With other words: They are going to hell.

I don't know enough about Jews for Jesus, but your characterization of what Paul said is incorrect. Paul says that observing Jewish holidays and customs is a matter of choice, not forbidden.

What he said is that people who teach that you must abide by all Levitical law in order to have salvation are condemned, not that it is wrong to celebrate Jewish customs by choice.

Paul himself never renounced his membership in the strict Pharisaical sect or stopped keeping Torah, albeit this was due to personal choice--not because he felt he had to.

[q_q_]

Paul said, that to the jews(i.e. when it comes to the jews) I am as a jew, so that I may win them over.

So from his mouth, that is a reason why he did it 

Corinthians 9:20 - quoted here, 9:19-22

 19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

[Ulli]

From a Christian point of view it is a sin for Christians  to obey Jewish holidays, because this days have had for Christians  only the meaning to point to Jesus.

Paulus said, that you are not allowed to celebrate it, because this is indicating, that the Christians, who did so, are not believing in Jesus.

Paulus said to the Galater, that they are fallen out of the grace, because they did so. With other words: They are going to hell.

I don't know enough about Jews for Jesus, but your characterization of what Paul said is incorrect. Paul says that observing Jewish holidays and customs is a matter of choice, not forbidden.

What he said is that people who teach that you must abide by all Levitical law in order to have salvation are condemned, not that it is wrong to celebrate Jewish customs by choice.

Paul himself never renounced his membership in the strict Pharisaical sect or stopped keeping Torah, albeit this was due to personal choice--not because he felt he had to.

I have to say it more clearly. Sorry.

Of course it is not a sin to eat a kosher meal, to be circumcised or even to eat lamb on eastern, but if a Christian is obeying a part of the Jewish law, except the moral teachings [not to talk against G-d himself, not to swear false, not to murder etc.], for religious reasons* it is clearly a sin according to Paul.

Galater 5.1 - 5.12
----------------------------------------------------
*I mean with this i. e. the Christian is celebrating Yom Kippur, Pessach etc. with the full relevancy of this holidays (or is circumcised in order to obey the law)
----------------------------------------------------

[OdKahaneChai]

not sure if they still exist, but Jews for Judaism was/is an excellent anti-missionary group.

Yes they certainly do, in fact Rov Skobac spoke at my Shul about a month ago.

[Dr. Dan]

not sure if they still exist, but Jews for Judaism was/is an excellent anti-missionary group.

Yes they certainly do, in fact Rov Skobac spoke at my Shul about a month ago.

either him or another person saved my Hillel from going the wrong way. We had a lot of dumb liberal self hating Jews in my hillel and they considered the "messianic" jewish movement to be a viable one and that it had a right to be on the campus.

[OdKahaneChai]

not sure if they still exist, but Jews for Judaism was/is an excellent anti-missionary group.

Yes they certainly do, in fact Rov Skobac spoke at my Shul about a month ago.

either him or another person saved my Hillel from going the wrong way. We had a lot of dumb liberal self hating Jews in my hillel and they considered the "messianic" jewish movement to be a viable one and that it had a right to be on the campus.

It was probably him.  He's a great guy.

He has a friend who was in the Chaya Squad that has a necklace of Missionary teeth. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I dont think that fighting missionaries physically will accomplish anything. We can and should debate them logically (actually send them and expecially the ones they are trying to soul snatch to the proper Rabbis and the lectures which clearly show the right path).

[Dr. Dan]

I dont think that fighting missionaries physically will accomplish anything. We can and should debate them logically (actually send them and expecially the ones they are trying to soul snatch to the proper Rabbis and the lectures which clearly show the right path).

I agree that it is ok to have a civil religious theological conversation with certain missionaries...but those conversations should be reserved for Jews who are comfortable with their knowledge of Judaism, like you, Tzvi .

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Ulrich--what Paul specifically condemns is Christians believing they must abide by Jewish customs in order to be saved. He never says it is wrong for anybody to observe Jewish customs by choice. Hang on and let me provide the applicable Scripture.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I dont think that fighting missionaries physically will accomplish anything. We can and should debate them logically (actually send them and expecially the ones they are trying to soul snatch to the proper Rabbis and the lectures which clearly show the right path).

I agree that it is ok to have a civil religious theological conversation with certain missionaries...but those conversations should be reserved for Jews who are comfortable with their knowledge of Judaism, like you, Tzvi .

Thanks for the compliment, but I dont know if I personally would be qualified, to think of something of my own I would only say what I heard the great Hachamim say. I also would probably not get into it because sometimes the other side (for different things) uses retoric and goes around the subject where they would try to confuse and use big words in order to show they are right- Something that is usually common with many of the "others" - ex- philosopers, etc. But with the Hachamim for example Rabbi Mizrahi you get a straight clear answer and not something blurry and that appears to be true because they use big words (which tricks people into believing they are right because it seems smart).

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

they steal Jewish souls. Messies tend to be the lowest of people, they were overly weak and were able to be lead on a path to Yeshua

[Dr. Dan]

I dont think that fighting missionaries physically will accomplish anything. We can and should debate them logically (actually send them and expecially the ones they are trying to soul snatch to the proper Rabbis and the lectures which clearly show the right path).

I agree that it is ok to have a civil religious theological conversation with certain missionaries...but those conversations should be reserved for Jews who are comfortable with their knowledge of Judaism, like you, Tzvi .

Thanks for the compliment, but I dont know if I personally would be qualified, to think of something of my own I would only say what I heard the great Hachamim say. I also would probably not get into it because sometimes the other side (for different things) uses retoric and goes around the subject where they would try to confuse and use big words in order to show they are right- Something that is usually common with many of the "others" - ex- philosopers, etc. But with the Hachamim for example Rabbi Mizrahi you get a straight clear answer and not something blurry and that appears to be true because they use big words (which tricks people into believing they are right because it seems smart).

no, you're right..you have a point. If it was a discussion with someone frank and honest and trying to steer you in the wrong direction using big words or tactics to fool you, you can pull off a decent conversation.

as for me, my arguement always goes, "To each their own..whatever works for you, is fine wiht me as long as you are a decent human being." end of conversation...and then they can go on and on on truth and this and that blah blah blah...and I'll answer "Good for you..whatever floats your bubble."  and then they'll say, "I'll pray for you." and I'll say, "Thank you, for the blessing. Gd bless you too."

and that'll be it... and you know why that'll be it?  Because I"m comfortable with my beliefs so far...

As far as fellow Jews..I love hearing what an observant jew has to say about Judaism..always somethign to learn and to question and to argue about in teh spirit of Gd and Torah.